From: Majordomo@teleport.com[SMTP:Majordomo@teleport.com] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 1997 7:41 AM To: john bouyea Subject: Majordomo file: list 'krnet-l' file 'v01.n142' -- From: owner-krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com (krnet-l-digest) To: krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com Subject: krnet-l-digest V1 #142 Reply-To: krnet-l-digest Sender: owner-krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com Errors-To: owner-krnet-l-digest@lists.teleport.com Precedence: bulk krnet-l-digest Thursday, October 23 1997 Volume 01 : Number 142 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:29:05 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: KR: Go here! Dreaming! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/%7Egeorge/myfalco.htm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:41:07 -0700 From: Ross Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) I've been thinking about the KR2-S suppliment. On the Standard KR-2 the plans purposely(?) omit a horizontal cross-member at the tailcone. (I don't recall which station), now this could be my failure to interpert the plans correctly, if so I expect to be properly beat up about the ears. I have noticed that the KR-2S fuselages I have seen have a significantly improved aft fuselage section. This means many more of those fun gussets to make! So I think the suppliment is worthwile. I also have seen some improvements in the fwd area near the engine mount, I believe this is to improve the strength for Subaru and other heavier engines. I've thought about buying a complete new set of plans myself, but perhaps I will just have a peek at someone elses now that I'm getting close to completion. Where did I put my plans anyway, I should review them to see if I put anything on upside down. The Canard goes in the front on the KR right? :) - - Ross Patrick Flowers wrote: > > Mark Langford wrote: > > > > TANDEM2 wrote: > > > > >i guess i should just get a set of plans and do what i need to do > > > > That'd be my advice. > > Okay, so the consensus is that support and assistance from RR is nearly > nil and the new plans are Jeanette's equivalent of vaporware. Just buy > the plans and depend on KRnet and other builders. None of this is news, > but bears repeating for the sake of the following question. > > If I build a KR, I will likely follow Mark's lead with a longer fuselage > and the NLF airfoil(except I like the idea of hotwiring sytro cores). > Based on this, is it worth $75 to get the 2S supplement? What's to be > gained? > > Patrick > -- > Patrick Flowers > Mailto:patri63@ibm.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:42:08 -0700 From: Ross Subject: Re: KR: Chat/KRNet BSHADR@aol.com wrote: > << My guess is they don't sleep. Probably how they keep spouses happy at > the same time. > > What's the trick guys? >> > > They could tell you...but they then would have to kill you...it is best not > to ask. > > Randy Well, I don't sleep. How else can I keep up with all the mail I write myself? It helps however to type > 100 words a minute. - -- Ross ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:45:31 -0700 From: Ross Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) Well I have to agree that a lot of the builder's manual is lacking. However the large size drawings have a LOT of information in them. In fact, I don't think you can dimension the fuselage without it, I used this drawing for most of the project. When I bought "Plans" I bought those drawings, the construction manual, well that was icing on the cake so to speak. Granted it probably doesn't compare to some of the other kits, but then, my engine won't cost me $15,000. - -- Ross Steven A Eberhart wrote: > > Actually, all the talk of late about the plans should be directed to the > Manual. All you have to do is look at the manual for the Cozy or any of > Rutan's designs on the Rutan CD to see that the KR manual is extreamly > lacking. Especially if you remove the almost 1/3 of it that is directed > to the obsolete retract gear installation. Luckily most of what you need > is on the plans and the rest gan be gotten here on KRNet. > > Steve > Just my opnion, worth every penny of what you paid for it. Double your > money back if not satisfied. > > On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Micheal Mims wrote: > > > At 12:23 PM 10/22/97 -0400, you wrote: > > >If I build a KR, I will likely follow Mark's lead with a longer fuselage > > >and the NLF airfoil(except I like the idea of hotwiring sytro cores). > > >Based on this, is it worth $75 to get the 2S supplement? What's to be > > >gained? > > > > > >Patrick > > >-- > > >Patrick Flowers > > >Mailto:patri63@ibm.net > > > > > > > Yes,.. as much as I would like to tell you to blow off the KR2S supp. I cant > > , You should buy them. Actually skip the manual and just buy the S supp! :o) > > > > ________________________________ > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Micheal Mims > > Just Plane Nutts > > mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net > > > > http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:52:19 -0700 From: Ross Subject: Re: KR: New Plans? Consider how many sets of plans at $165 ea you would have to sell to keep your family fed, pay the lease on office space etc, and you see that we are very lucky that Jeanette is still around to support the sale of KR plans. There are many small aircraft designs here the plans are just a sideline, and getting pre-fab components etc are out of the question. Just look at the front of the ACS or Wicks catalog at all of the KIT models where ACS/Wicks are the sole supplier of materials for these projects. (Granted Rand Robinson relies on ACS &Wicks, but Jeanette does kit wing skins and other pre-fab components.) I know I'd have to sell several copies of plans daily to support my kids, if that were my business. OR, I could modify the design, make it pressureized and move to Redmond OR across the mountains... oh sorry, thats been done (Lancair), or I could go all metal, and move north about 80 miles, Whoops thats been done too (RV). I guess I am surrounded! -- Ross and Steve Bennett wrote: > > please keep in mind that most companies that deal in sport aviation > are not IBM's. R&D funds etc. are expensive to come by. S. Bennett ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:59:13 -0700 From: David Moore Subject: Re: KR: Rotary Mazda engines At 03:19 PM 10/22/97 PDT, you wrote: >No web site for Ross Aero. They are your basic grassroots, hands-on >types. I'll get with turnkey1 and tandem2 privately; fax copy of info. >I'll research tonight to see what they have on Mazda rotaries, but I >seem to recall it's all too big for KRs, like 150 HP plus? Oscar, Oh, YEA!!! 150 hp KR2s. It could happen! (just kidding?) Thanks for the help. Dave Moore David Moore Turnkey1@MSComm.Com Hesperia, Calif. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:00:36 -0700 From: Ross Subject: Re: KR: Wierd Email Sequel Actually, KRNET email is sent "BULK", kind of like electronic junk mail, just that I don't have Ed McMahon's picture posted on every KRNET mail. This means that they are sent low priority. I live at Teleport (electronicly speaking), and I often read two or three replies before I get the original message, and I read by oldest first. Wierd! Oscar Zuniga wrote: > > >Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:27:29 -0400 > >From: Patrick Flowers > >To: krnet-l@teleport.com > >Subject: KR: Wierd Email Sequel > >Reply-To: krnet-l@teleport.com > > > >Strange, I've rec'd John's and Mike's response to my 2S Supplement > >email, but I've never received my original email back. Either > >teleport's or ibmnet's mail servers must be weirding out. > >-- > >Patrick Flowers > >Mailto:patri63@ibm.net > > > > This has been happening to me, too. Thought it was just me and my > cheesy, cheapo, freebie choice of e-mail providers. > > Oscar > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:16:28 -0700 From: Ross Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) Patrick Flowers wrote: > > You know, the issue(at least to me) is not the money as much as it is > the principle. I can't think of any other purchase where I would accept > not only lack of support and product development, but also downright > antagonism for not building to the letter of the plans. I see your point, but do you run Windows95? Case Closed. Just think of the KR manual as a 1.2Gb hard drive, and the KR2-S suppliment as a CDROM with Windows 95 on it, or Flight Simulator 96. > If I were > soliciting bids, and a vendor came in with that attitude, they'd be on > their butts on the sidewalk out front in less than five minutes! I agree with you here, but on the other hand, you can always call up Lancair, or RV, and buy plans from them, how about a Pietenpol? Rand Robinson doesn't have a monopoly on the kit market. > So, unless there is critical info on the 2S supplement necessary to > build the aircraft that I have in mind, I can't see paying for them. > And the aircraft I have in mind is not a strictly built-to-the-plans 2S. Well I used to think of this. When $75.00 was the difference between having something to do on the project over the weekend or not. However after 8 years of working on the project (off-and on, and part-time), $75.00 is probably the amount I have spent on latex gloves, and dixie cups. If spending the extra $75.00 will delay the start of your project a month, then don't do it, however I feel that this is small potatoes compared to the total project cost, even if you manage to complete your project for under $10K. Well, I've stuck my foot in it haven't I... - -- Ross ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:18:57 -0700 From: Ross Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) Mike, I agree with your view on the price/value of the KR plans compared to other kits. I think the difference between the $50.00 plans and $162 price has to be the number of planes flying and the low completion cost of the airframe, otherwise no-one would be buying and building KR's they would rather build RV's. -- Ross Micheal Mims wrote: > > At 06:39 PM 10/22/97 -0700, Robert Covington wrote: > >Well I guess I am the odd man out, but I think the manual is fine. It might > not be great but you can certainly build the plane from it, if you have > >normal intelligence. I find it a perky read in parts. Fun. > > Beleive it or not Robert I agree with you 100%, BUT,...and its a big one! > No not yours! For what you get I think the price is WAY off. The KR2 plans > should be in the neighborhood of $50.00. For the amount of money spent on > the KR2 and KR2S plans I would and did expect A LOT more. Take a look at > your hanger mates RV plans (blue prints) and compare! Or take a look at the > EZ plans or even the Dragonfly plans which have been called a joke by some > of the Dragonfly builders, they put the KR plans to shame! I spent $25 on a > set of plans for a 25 foot sailboat a few months ago and got REAL BLUE > PRINTS along with a manual with ten times the text as the KR plans. > Something is wrong with that picture don't you think? Its time to re-do the > plans and give the builders something for their money, maybe even a > construction video and sample pieces of wood and glue. The guy who is doing > the Vison is doing it right. RR could learn a little from this guy! I > offered to re-do the manual for free with better pictures and more text to > help understand construction in multiple WP formats (MS Word, AmiPro, > WordPro etc.). That was a year ago,................waiting and wondering! > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Micheal Mims > Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. > mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net > http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:21:33 -0700 From: Ross Subject: KR: High Cost of Spruce John Roffey wrote: > > By the way, the spruce has gone up a lot this summer, $839 for the 2S > kit. John Roffey > jeroffey@tir.com In 1988 (When I started my KR-2 project) I think retail was about $600 or so, I got a wood kit (Complete and still in the Wicks Crates) for $400. WOW! This was a good think as I was anxious to start and there was a 6-8month waiting list for spar stock I was told. UGH! - -- Ross ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:17:21 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: High Cost of Spruce At 12:21 AM 10/23/97 -0700, Ross wrote: >John Roffey wrote: >> >> By the way, the spruce has gone up a lot this summer, $839 for the 2S >> kit. John Roffey >> jeroffey@tir.com >In 1988 (When I started my KR-2 project) I think retail was about $600 >or so, I got a wood kit (Complete and still in the Wicks Crates) for >$400. WOW! This was a good think as I was anxious to start and there >was a 6-8month waiting list for spar stock I was told. UGH! >-- Ross > Can you say Doug FIR? Clear of course! Its looking better all the time! :o) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:24:36 -0700 From: Ross Subject: Re: KR: QUESTION:CarbHeat Plenum & Linkage MikeT nyc wrote: > Don't you have Tony Bingelis's books? He's got tons of stuff on this. > > Mike Taglieri OH, and I expect I'm supposed to know how to READ them Too! :) == Note to Self : A) Learn to Read Friday B) Find KR Plans C) Read Plans (Again) D) Find Tony's Books (May have to visit Tony in Austin TX) E) Read Tony's Book F) Problem Solved (As Ross Perot would say... it's jsut that simple) G) Fly KR on Tuesday (Kidding) - -- Thanks for the tip, I will dig up my books and go through them again. However, I'm still looking for ideas al-la actual KR. (My hangar mate has an interesting linkage system, but more complex than I want to implement... I'm looking for KISS ideas). - -- Ross ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:27:50 -0700 From: Ross Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) Well, Another idea would be to build up new plans (a KRNET.ORG suppliment), and provide them to registered KR plans owners via the net. This way KRNET.ORG would not be encroching on Rand Robinsons business, by only providing this information to registered owners. However, since KRNET.ORG, is legaly me at the moment, I'm not sure I want the liability at this time... I'd have to say things, like... Don't divert from the plans, and not associated with KRNET, and .................. .................. .................. (The preceeding three lines was all the fine print.) -- Ross Robert Covington wrote: > > >At 06:39 PM 10/22/97 -0700, Robert Covington wrote: > >>Well I guess I am the odd man out, but I think the manual is fine. It might > >not be great but you can certainly build the plane from it, if you have > >>normal intelligence. I find it a perky read in parts. Fun. > > > >Beleive it or not Robert I agree with you 100%, BUT,...and its a big one! > >No not yours! > > I ain't going there...except to say, no, not yours, too. ;) LOL > > For what you get I think the price is WAY off. The KR2 plans > >should be in the neighborhood of $50.00. For the amount of money spent on > >the KR2 and KR2S plans I would and did expect A LOT more. Take a look at > >your hanger mates RV plans (blue prints) and compare! Or take a look at the > >EZ plans or even the Dragonfly plans which have been called a joke by some > >of the Dragonfly builders, they put the KR plans to shame! I spent $25 on a > >set of plans for a 25 foot sailboat a few months ago and got REAL BLUE > >PRINTS along with a manual with ten times the text as the KR plans. > >Something is wrong with that picture don't you think? Its time to re-do the > >plans and give the builders something for their money, maybe even a > >construction video and sample pieces of wood and glue. The guy who is doing > >the Vison is doing it right. RR could learn a little from this guy! I > >offered to re-do the manual for free with better pictures and more text to > >help understand construction in multiple WP formats (MS Word, AmiPro, > >WordPro etc.). That was a year ago,................waiting and wondering! > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Micheal Mims > >Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. > >mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net > >http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims > > I can agree with that for sure. They do seem pricey for what you get. The > 2S plans (with KR-2 plans) ought to be what the KR-2 plans cost alone. The > KR-2 and KR-1 should be around $80-100 on down I think. > > Since she won't pay for it, or say,"OK", I think some kind soul should just > write a better manual with better pictures and give it to her, with all the > reproduction rights she needs to use it. Assuming it is worth using. > > If you could spell better Mike, I would nominate you. :) > > PS I'll pay you $10 or do you a new shirt if you change the DragonFly > picture wording at the bottom of your WWW page from "I'm not prejudice!" to > "prejudiced!" Been a year now! :) > > Robert Covington ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:29:53 -0700 From: Ross Subject: KR: Re: I'm not prejudice I just thought he could be prejudiced, but that he was most certainly NOT prejudice. I prefer Orangejudice. - -- Ross Micheal Mims wrote: > > At 10:37 PM 10/22/97 -0600, Jeb wrote: > >Way to go Robert, we be chatting with IQC me > >and Brian B and MM (Spike) > >I can spell good, C A T - "dog" > >> PS I'll pay you $10 or do you a new shirt if you change the DragonFly > >> picture wording at the bottom of your WWW page from "I'm not prejudice!" > >to > >> "prejudiced!" Been a year now! :) > >> > >> Robert Covington > >> > > Butt,..........once again! What if I am not prejudice but I am prejudiced?! > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Micheal Mims > Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. > mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net > http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:31:54 -0700 From: Ross Subject: Re: KR: Construction Manual EagleGator@aol.com wrote: > > I'm tired of the belly aching. I'm going to write an unauthorized > construction manual to share how I built my airplane. I'm not going to ask > for Jeanette's approval. I'm not going to criticize the current plans or > manual. I see a need, and I'm going to fill it. Expect the first draft > sometime in early 1999, after my plane has been fully tested and deficiencies > are corrected. > > As for the mean time, either stop bitching and use the considerable resources > available here to build the best airplane you can, or go build something > else. 'Nuf said. > > Rick Junkin > EagleGator@aol.com > "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" I agree. Did I ever say that the manual sucks! OK, now that I've gotten that off my chest. How did I end up with such a pretty airplane in the garage? I must be one hell of an airplane builder! Building a KR with the KR manual builds character! Too bad I built my KR with spruce and fiberglass, therefore, I have no character! - -- Ross ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 04:28:37 -0700 From: enewbold@sprynet.com Subject: Re: KR: Trim System >Have you looked at the trim system in a Glassair? It is simple and >produces the same sort of trim control you are looking at except that the >springs are in compression. It also preloads the elevator control to >stiffen it up a bit. You can even control the amount of preload you want >on the elevator controls. No external trim tab is used. If I had seen >it before mine was done, that's how mine would have been built. As it >is, I may very well convert mine to that style in the future. >Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM Jeff, is there anyone you know who might have the system diagrammed on paper, or a small Glassair instruction diagram which might be scanned into the system? I'd love to have a good look at it. Thanks, Ed Newbold Columbus, OH ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:07:45 +0200 From: Michele Bucceri Subject: KR: Hello and ... many questions! Hello to all the KRNET-er from an Italian new-entry! (By the way, a special thank to Ross, for his help!). May be I'll be a KR2S builder in a few. Now I'm only trying to understand if it's the KR2S the airplane I want to build. I've downloaded the krnet.zip file, and I've read almost the mail on it. They are really interesting. I'm attracted by some aspect of the Rand airplane's series (let me know if I'm wrong): it's easy to build, also for first-time builder (as I am), it's cheaper, it has a good cruising speed with not too much power, the project and the contruction tecniques let the builder to have a lot of personalisation chance, and many other. If these are the best of the KR2S project, reading the mails and looking at the airplane I've also the feeling the main problem is that the airplane is narrow in the shoulders. I have a lot of questions, some are below: What about cruising speed? The numbers I've found are quite different. I've heard a range between 120 and 195 mph, and it seems strange for me. What about the construction time? I've read that 1000 hours is a reasonable planning. What do they include in these 1000 hours? Reading plans, ordering material and parts, choosing engine, propeller and so on, or only the time you spent in the workshop? It's quite different! And, last, what is a reasonable budget to make the plane? I know that these are the boring, usual question a beginner makes, but I don't want to discover in a few months that I've made the wrong choice! Thanks in advance, and excuse me for my bad english, Michele - -- MBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMB Michele Bucceri E-mail: michele.bucceri@italtel.it MBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMB ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:33:38 -0700 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR: Hello and ... many questions! Michele Bucceri wrote: > I have a lot of questions, some are below: > What about cruising speed? The numbers I've found are quite different. > I've heard a range between 120 and 195 mph, and it seems strange for me. > What about the construction time? I've read that 1000 hours is a > reasonable planning. > Michele Bucceri > E-mail: michele.bucceri@italtel.it The cruise speed depends on so many variables; how much real engine power, actual weight, quality of finish, what the pilot is comfortable with, etc. There have been examples finished in about 1000 hours. I supppose that it can be done. I will be setting some kind of a record, because I have already exceeded 3000 hours in less than 5 years. This does not include redesign time. It will go MUCH faster if you do not change anything from the design, and you use all prefabricated parts. - -- Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 07:23:37 -0700 From: MARVIN MCCOY Subject: Re: KR: High Cost of Spruce > John Roffey wrote: > > > > By the way, the spruce has gone up a lot this summer, $839 for the 2S - --------------------- Keep in mind that they are charging you for milling and cutting all of the spruce up to the proper size. If you just bought some aircraft grade spruce and cut it your self it would save some money. Although I must admit that Doug fir is still less money. Marvin McCoy Seattle, WA. North end of Boeing field Mr.Marvin@worldnet.att.net - ---------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:25:06 -0400 From: Patrick Flowers Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) Ross wrote: > > Patrick Flowers wrote: > > > > You know, the issue(at least to me) is not the money as much as it is > > the principle. I can't think of any other purchase where I would accept > > not only lack of support and product development, but also downright > > antagonism for not building to the letter of the plans. > I see your point, but do you run Windows95? Case Closed. Ya know, I haven't paid for a copy of Windoze95 yet. In fact, I can't seem to keep vendors from sticking it on the machines before I get them(Does Janet Reno know about this? ;o) > Rand Robinson doesn't have a monopoly on the kit market. Never said they did. In fact, when I started this thread, I said up front that I had basically narrowed it down to two designs. Funny thing is, the price of plans from Preceptor and RR is within $5 of each other. The main reason I haven't sent sent a check to Preceptor yet is because there is no equivalent to KRNet for Ultrapup builders. > > So, unless there is critical info on the 2S supplement necessary to > > build the aircraft that I have in mind, I can't see paying for them. > > And the aircraft I have in mind is not a strictly built-to-the-plans 2S. > Well I used to think of this. When $75.00 was the difference between > having something to do on the project over the weekend or not. Ross, I said up front that money is not the issue here... > Well, I've stuck my foot in it haven't I... Nah, you're keeping me on my toes. What you need to realize is that I'm in the process of making a decision that many of you made for yourselves years ago. I'm not questioning that the decision was right for you, but the number of uncompleted KR projects for sale makes me want to be sure that it's the right decision for me. It's not just the $245 for the plans, it's the beginning of a $10,000 plus commitment. If I start, I want to be darn sure that I finish. Patrick - -- Patrick Flowers Mailto:patri63@ibm.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:35:58 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: High Cost of Spruce At 07:23 AM 10/23/97 -0700, you wrote: > Keep in mind that they are charging you for milling and cutting >all of the spruce up to the proper size. If you just bought some >aircraft grade spruce and cut it your self it would save some money. >Although I must admit that Doug fir is still less money. > Boy the guy cutting the wood at AS&S must have got one hell of a raise last year then! I paid about $650 for my spruce, shortly afterwards it jumped to about $750 or so and now its almost $900! You can buy enough doug fir to build a squadron of KRs for $900! ________________________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:09:32 -0700 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) At 10:25 AM 10/23/97 -0400, you wrote: >>>It's not just the $245 for the plans, it's the beginning of a $10,000 plus commitment. If I start, I want to be darn sure that I finish. > >Patrick >-- >Patrick Flowers >Mailto:patri63@ibm.net > This is a very key statement! I could not imagine building a KR without this forum! Imagine how frustrating it must be to call RR and have your call redirected to someone else who built a KR! Not true support but just phone numbers to former builders, not that that's bad but,...no one at the company is a pilot, an engineer, or a builder, etc. In some states its illegal to have the word "engineer" in the company name unless there is and actually engineer on staff. Hummm................ I don't think RR has stayed in business selling only plans, trust me she sells A LOT of KITS! That's where the money is in this case. The money is not an issue as said before, its just that the plans need to be redone in a better format with more pictures and better descriptions of various processes. Interesting note, last night I looked through the "Spars" section desperately looking for something that mentions grain direction of the spar caps, nothing! Found absolutely nothing! Is this not important? Are you sure? The drawings inconsistently show the grain in various directions. Some vertical , some horizontal and some at a 45 degree angle. Obviously it doesn't matter which way the grain is oriented! But are you sure? This is WHY there are so many uncompleted KRs on the market. These little things with start to eat at you until you give up! I have come close a few times! Last weekend I noticed my spar caps when cut by AS&S have the grain at about 20 degrees from horizontal, is this going to kill me? Someone tell me please! I thought AS&S wold have known what they were doing when they cut the wood but that's not the case, they have a guy who makes about $2.50 an hour in the basement who has no idea about the particulars of aircraft construction, he just cuts wood to various sizes according to a piece of paper he has tacked to the wall. Does this scare you? It should! (he does do a fine job at cutting though, in my opinion he deserves a raise!) If I find out my main spar is wrong there is gona be a BIG bonfire at Chino next week and I will start construction on a LongEZ or Vision pronto! I will keep yall posted on the KR burning party! What kind of beer do yall like? :o) ________________________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:25:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Steven A Eberhart Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Micheal Mims wrote: [big snip] > > If I find out my main spar is wrong there is gona be a BIG bonfire at Chino > next week and I will start construction on a LongEZ or Vision pronto! I > will keep yall posted on the KR burning party! What kind of beer do yall > like? :o) first dibbs on your fuselage. Steve newtech@newtech.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:38:30 -0700 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) Patrick Flowers wrote: great big snip > I'm not questioning that the decision was right for you, but > the number of uncompleted KR projects for sale makes me want to be sure > that it's the right decision for me. It's not just the $245 for the > plans, it's the beginning of a $10,000 plus commitment. If I start, I > want to be darn sure that I finish. > > Patrick > -- > Patrick Flowers > Mailto:patri63@ibm.net I only have two points on this thread: 1) I suspect that there are a significant number of unfinished planes of all sorts. The only ones that are practically certain of completion are the mega-buck kits like Glasair and Lanceair. Anything that takes a huge committment of time and less a committment of money will run the risk of not being finished. 2) The cost of plans is a very small fraction of the cost of the final product. - -- Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:47:12 -0400 From: "Scott Goodman" Subject: Re: KR: Trim System I would think that a spring in compression would be much less likely to break in the first place than a spring in tension. I dont think I have ever encountered or heard about a broken compression spring. They may 'sag' eventually, but tension springs may stretch. The design seems to be inherently more reliable than a tension spring. Of course, I've had limited engineering classes, and its only my opinion. - ---------- > From: Micheal Mims > To: krnet-l@teleport.com; krnet-l@teleport.com > Subject: Re: KR: Trim System > Date: Thursday, October 23, 1997 1:27 AM > > At 01:00 AM 10/23/97 -0400, MikeTnyc@aol.com wrote: > However, isn't "using a spring in compression" what most taildraggers with > tailwheel springs do nowadays? The pull from the chains connect internally > to the opposite ends through the middle of the spring, so when you pull on > the chain, the spring compresses. Seems fairly simple. > > > >Mike Taglieri > > > > > > See I was making it way to complex! I was thinking about springs inside of > tubes with special fittings on each end for the connection. (kinda like a > preload device) Thats how its done on big birds! Anyway, how is using a > spring like this any safer than using it the other way? If the spring > breaks you still lose tension on one side and full trim would be applied to > the other? Right? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Micheal Mims > Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. > mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net > http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:17:39 -0400 (EDT) From: TANDEM2@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Rotary engines thanks, then if i can stay in that area, i should be ok, well will find out more when i see this person. tandem2 in holding ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:35:06 -0400 From: Patrick Flowers Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) Donald Reid wrote: > > I suspect that there are a significant number of unfinished planes of > all sorts. The only ones that are practically certain of completion are > the mega-buck kits like Glasair and Lanceair. Anything that takes a huge > committment of time and less a committment of money will run the risk of > not being finished. Well, it seems the number of unfinished KR's is disproportionally high(at least to me) in relation to other plansbuilt designs. I suspect this is due to the low cost of building in relation to advertised(read overstated) performance and unrealistic expectations about the amount of effort required to complete. The only other plansbuilt design that comes close in "bang/buck" is the Vision, and their plans sell for $600. I expect that Jeanette sells tons of plans and kits to wannabe pilots that don't have a clue what they're getting into. When they get mired down in the details and get no answers from RR, they have nowhere else to turn, so they just throw up their hands and walk away from(or try to sell) their project. These guys never seem to be EAA members, so when one joins a local EAA chapter to try to find some answers, there are no other chapter members with KR experience and they go away empty handed. Worse, they run into the EAA "snobbery" that's been discussed here recently, go away totally disgusted, have a bonfire and buy a spamcan. I know from whence I speak. I almost bought a set of KR plans for the first time over 20 years ago(had some of the same nagging questions then that I have now, but now I have a few more answers). I've been an EAA member for over 12 years and a local chapter member for over 10 years. During the 10 years I was involved in the Charlotte, NC chapter, we only had one member building a KR, even though we knew there were several under construction in the area. The chapter project is an RV-6(a *real* metal airplane). The KR builder was considered an oddity by most of the membership and has probably dropped out of the chapter by now. I asked him once if he had internet email, planning to tell him about KRNet, and he told me he didn't have time for that. I almost asked him how he had time to build an airplane, but decided not to try to insult him. Since I moved to Atlanta in January, I haven't found a local chapter where I feel like I fit in(sound familiar). The traffic here and on r.a.h has filled the "hangar-flying" void to this point. I guess I feel the need to start building something because I miss the hands-on part of working on that RV-6. Sorry to be so long winded, but all this seemed important for some reason. Thanks for taking the time to read it. Patrick - -- Patrick Flowers Mailto:patri63@ibm.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:40:14 -0400 (EDT) From: TANDEM2@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) thanks marvin, will talk to you soon tandem2 in holding ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:53:31 -0400 (EDT) From: TANDEM2@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: 2S Supplement - Worth $75?(was New Plans?) ya, i have talked to mark here in seattle, a nice guy, and that is who i will talk to again to get the new wings and sparrs info from and what ever else he has on the kr2s. tandem2 in holding ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:48:57 -0500 (CDT) From: larry flesner Subject: KR: reply:plans,trim,level Fellow KR builders and want-a-be builders, I'm getting behind on reading my KR Net mail (1308 messages) and haven't even read all the ones on the subjects I would like to through in by humble opinion on but here goes. Plans: I don't think anyone should even think of building a KR of any kind ( 1, 2, or 2s ) without having all the plans available. The question should never cross one's mind, even if you discount 90% of the info. If you can't afford the plans, you can't afford the airplane!! I have found the plans to be adequate for a first time builder if you suppliment them with Tony Bingelis books, Wick's catalog, AS&S catalog, KR Net, KR Gatherings, and other EAA books. I get the idea from some of the questions asked that some builders are not familiar with the plans they have in hand. There are holes yes, but there is also a lot of info there if you take the time to study the plans. Level: My personal opinion is the banana boat syndrome is a point of totally needless concern. The plans state in section 10.21 on page 78 that the BEST location to check for o% incidence is the FIREWALL !!!! Use the firewall as your reference for the entire project and the top longerons be damned!!!! As for angle of incidence, check your 48 inch rib drawing. You get 3.5% if your firewall is plumb (90%) and your front spar is plumb. Mark and cut your 48 inch rib and use the center piece to set the rear spar. If you want to change the angle of incidence, remark you your 48 inch rib before cutting. My mind was in a fog on this whole area until I studied the drawings and saw how simple it can be. Check it out. I set my wing center section with 2 bubble levels and when I later checked it with a "Smartlevel" that I purchased, it was within one teneth of one degree of 3.5% !!! Trim: I was considering going the "spring in the control system" route but kept comming back to the separate tab system as a backup pitch system in case of a failure in the primary pitch system. I built the separate tab and only a matter of months later the KR crashed in Indiana with a "suspected" failure of the elevator horn. I felt much better about my decission at that point!!! Do what makes you feel good. It's your butt in the seat!!!! Note: If you install springs in the system, you shouldn't be building in something that you can't overpower manually if there is a failure!!! That seems like a statement I should't really have to make. Now, with that off my chest, I can get back to reading some more e-mail and more importantly, back out in the garage and get some building time in!!! Larry Flesner larryfle@midwest.net ------------------------------ End of krnet-l-digest V1 #142 *****************************