From: owner-krnet-l-digest@teleport.com[SMTP:owner-krnet-l-digest@teleport.com] Sent: Sunday, November 23, 1997 3:13 PM To: krnet-l-digest@teleport.com Subject: krnet-l-digest V1 #175 krnet-l-digest Sunday, November 23 1997 Volume 01 : Number 175 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 16:13:01 -0600 (CST) From: flesner Subject: Re: KR: Hello KRNetters! - ----------SNIP ----------- >9) I'm Monokoting the entire aircraft as though it were a huge model >airplane. This should provide a super-glossy surface with no painting. Prep >will be done using dry micro mix only. "Balsarite" heat-sensitive adhesive >will be sprayed on the airframe as a sealer on all wood, inside and out, and >this will permanently bond the mylar film to the structure, including all the >glassed surfaces. >This should save 20 lbs on the airframe as there will be no primer or paint >used, and no glass on the fuselage. > >14) A stringered turtledeck with stringers 4" apart max at the canopy >position, covered with Monokote. > - ------------------- SNIP ------------- Welcome Tom, Sounds like you have some interesting ideas !!!!!! Tell us more on the "Monokot" and is that going to be strong enough by itself as a cover on the turtledeck? Any experiance there or is this in the theory stage yet? Boy, a project like this can really get the mental juices flowing , can't it?!!!!! Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 16:12:52 -0600 (CST) From: flesner Subject: Re: KR: Aileron Modification to work with flaps - ------ SNIP ---------------- This modification alone decreased his stall speed by 2 mph. > This aileron modification looked very easy to do. I have never >heard anyone talk about doing this to a KR. It seems that it may be a >good thing to do since the flaps on the KR are so small. > Has anyone had any experience with this or has anyone done it to >a KR??? Any thoughts?? > >Just wondering. > >Marvin McCoy >Seattle, WA. North end of Boeing field >Mr.Marvin@worldnet.att.net >------------------------ Marvin, If the results were similar on the KR (2 mph ) I would hardly think it would be worth the effort. I doubt if any of us are good enough pilots to effectivly use the 2 mph gain. If that's all it takes to keep me out of the crapper I'm pushing it too close to the edge !!!!!!!!! Just my opinion....... Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:53:12 -0500 (EST) From: MikeTnyc@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Dual ignition & one set of plugs >No one has mentioned what may be the best of both worlds, at least if you >have two plugs, and that is to use a magneto for one and electronic for >the other. Mags are old tech, but they need no external power. >Electronic is great, hot spark, adjustable timing, etc, but it still >needs external power. This is what Great Plains has offered for their engines for a long time, with an electronic ignition that fits where the VW distributor went. The point of trying to run both ignitions into one set of plugs, however (if it is possible), would be that you could save several hundred dollars on drilling extra plug holes in your heads that could also potentially weaken the VW head, since it was not designed for them. The chance of a failure to a sparkplug itself is small enough that it could be ignored. Mike Taglieri ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:53:17 -0500 (EST) From: MikeTnyc@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Hello KRNetters! In a message dated 97-11-21 20:22:25 EST, you write: >9) I'm Monokoting the entire aircraft as though it were a huge model >airplane. This should provide a super-glossy surface with no painting. Prep >will be done using dry micro mix only. "Balsarite" heat-sensitive adhesive >will be sprayed on the airframe as a sealer on all wood, inside and out, and >this will permanently bond the mylar film to the structure, including all the >glassed surfaces. >This should save 20 lbs on the airframe as there will be no primer or paint >used, and no glass on the fuselage. Could you explain more about Monokoting? This is bonding a mylar film to an airplane rather than painting it? Your comment suggests that you expected everyone would be familiar with it, but I've never heard the word before. Is it UV and weather resistant? Mike Taglieri ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 21:26:51 EST From: leperkins@juno.com (Lloyd Perkins,Jr.) Subject: Re: KR: Hello KRNetters! Dear Fellow Modelers/Builders As a Certified Aircraft Technician and avid R/C modeler , I can truthfully say that Monokoting a KR-2 is totally unacceptable!!!!!!!!!!! It is not strong enough nor is it cost effective....... Nice try though. Have a HAPPY THANKSGIVING to all. Best Regards, LLoyd On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:53:17 -0500 (EST) MikeTnyc@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 97-11-21 20:22:25 EST, you write: > >>9) I'm Monokoting the entire aircraft as though it were a huge model >>airplane. This should provide a super-glossy surface with no >painting. Prep >>will be done using dry micro mix only. "Balsarite" heat-sensitive >adhesive >>will be sprayed on the airframe as a sealer on all wood, inside and >out, and >>this will permanently bond the mylar film to the structure, including >all >the >>glassed surfaces. >>This should save 20 lbs on the airframe as there will be no primer or >paint >>used, and no glass on the fuselage. > >Could you explain more about Monokoting? This is bonding a mylar >film to an >airplane rather than painting it? Your comment suggests that you >expected >everyone would be familiar with it, but I've never heard the word >before. > Is it UV and weather resistant? > >Mike Taglieri > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:56:58 -0800 From: "John F. Esch" Subject: Re: KR: Hello KRNetters! I would have to agree with Lloyd. Being an avid R/Cer for the 15+ years, monokoting is unacceptable. Monokoting relys on strength on the underlying support structure i.e. balsa ribs etc. KR's relys on both, foam/fiberglass to retains the airfoil shape and underlying structure. Granted I am not an A&P (trying to be one though) but I worked around big aircraft and little ones to know what works (except for D Fir and Spruce). John F. (trying not offend anyone) Esch Salem, OR Lloyd Perkins,Jr. wrote: > Dear Fellow Modelers/Builders > As a Certified Aircraft Technician and avid R/C modeler , I can > truthfully say that Monokoting a KR-2 is totally > unacceptable!!!!!!!!!!! > It is not strong enough nor is it cost effective....... Nice try > though. > Have a HAPPY THANKSGIVING to all. > Best Regards, > LLoyd > > On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:53:17 -0500 (EST) MikeTnyc@aol.com writes: > >In a message dated 97-11-21 20:22:25 EST, you write: > > > >>9) I'm Monokoting the entire aircraft as though it were a huge model > > >>airplane. This should provide a super-glossy surface with no > >painting. Prep > >>will be done using dry micro mix only. "Balsarite" heat-sensitive > >adhesive > >>will be sprayed on the airframe as a sealer on all wood, inside and > >out, and > >>this will permanently bond the mylar film to the structure, > including > >all > >the > >>glassed surfaces. > >>This should save 20 lbs on the airframe as there will be no primer > or > >paint > >>used, and no glass on the fuselage. > > > >Could you explain more about Monokoting? This is bonding a mylar > >film to an > >airplane rather than painting it? Your comment suggests that you > >expected > >everyone would be familiar with it, but I've never heard the word > >before. > > Is it UV and weather resistant? > > > >Mike Taglieri > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 19:00:37 -0800 From: "John F. Esch" Subject: Re: KR: Aileron Modification to work with flaps I think the amount of work, increased weight, and costs of the mods wouldn't justify the small decrease of speed. John F. Esch Salem OR flesner wrote: > ------ SNIP ---------------- > > This modification alone decreased his stall speed by 2 mph. > > This aileron modification looked very easy to do. I have > never > >heard anyone talk about doing this to a KR. It seems that it may be > a > >good thing to do since the flaps on the KR are so small. > > Has anyone had any experience with this or has anyone done it > to > >a KR??? Any thoughts?? > > > >Just wondering. > > > >Marvin McCoy > >Seattle, WA. North end of Boeing field > >Mr.Marvin@worldnet.att.net > >------------------------ > > Marvin, > > If the results were similar on the KR (2 mph ) I would > hardly think it would be worth the effort. I doubt > if any of us are good enough pilots to effectivly > use the 2 mph gain. If that's all it takes to keep > me out of the crapper I'm pushing it too close to > the edge !!!!!!!!! Just my opinion....... > > Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:54:55 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Hello KRNetters! At 06:53 PM 11/22/97 -0500, you wrote: >Could you explain more about Monokoting? This is bonding a mylar film to an airplane rather than painting it? Your comment suggests that you expected everyone would be familiar with it, but I've never heard the word before. Is it UV and weather resistant? > >Mike Taglieri > Monokote is a mylar film used to cover R/C and U/C model airplanes. Its pretty tough stuff but I am not sure how it would work on an airplane that is parked outside in the elements. As far as UV protection,...I dont think so but I am not 100% positive. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:46:56 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Aileron Modification to work with flaps At 08:38 AM 11/22/97 -0800, you wrote: This aileron modification looked very easy to do. I have never >heard anyone talk about doing this to a KR. It seems that it may be a >good thing to do since the flaps on the KR are so small. Has anyone had any experience with this or has anyone done it to >a KR??? Any thoughts?? When I first started building I looked in to drooping the ailerons because I flew C-207s that had Robertson kits on them which allowed the ailerons to droop about 10 degrees. It made the airplane handle much better at slower speeds. However,..using the stock cable system it became complicated so I gave up on the idea. But the thumb wheel on the push pull tube should work pretty good on a KR utilizing that type of control system. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 03:40:05 GMT From: bbland@busprod.com (Brian Bland) Subject: Re: KR: Hello KRNetters! On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:56:58 -0800, you wrote: >I would have to agree with Lloyd. Being an avid R/Cer for the 15+ >years, monokoting is unacceptable. Monokoting relys on strength on the >underlying support structure i.e. balsa ribs etc. KR's relys on both, >foam/fiberglass to retains the airfoil shape and underlying structure. >Granted I am not an A&P (trying to be one though) but I worked around >big aircraft and little ones to know what works (except for D Fir and >Spruce). > >John F. (trying not offend anyone) Esch >Salem, OR > > >Lloyd Perkins,Jr. wrote: > >> Dear Fellow Modelers/Builders >> As a Certified Aircraft Technician and avid R/C modeler , I can >> truthfully say that Monokoting a KR-2 is totally >> unacceptable!!!!!!!!!!! >> It is not strong enough nor is it cost effective....... Nice try >> though. >> Have a HAPPY THANKSGIVING to all. >> Best Regards, >> LLoyd >> >> On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:53:17 -0500 (EST) MikeTnyc@aol.com writes: >> >In a message dated 97-11-21 20:22:25 EST, you write: >> > >> >>9) I'm Monokoting the entire aircraft as though it were a huge model >> >> >>airplane. This should provide a super-glossy surface with no >> >painting. Prep >> >>will be done using dry micro mix only. "Balsarite" heat-sensitive >> >adhesive >> >>will be sprayed on the airframe as a sealer on all wood, inside and >> >out, and >> >>this will permanently bond the mylar film to the structure, >> including >> >all >> >the >> >>glassed surfaces. >> >>This should save 20 lbs on the airframe as there will be no primer >> or >> >paint >> >>used, and no glass on the fuselage. >> > >> >Could you explain more about Monokoting? This is bonding a mylar >> >film to an >> >airplane rather than painting it? Your comment suggests that you >> >expected >> >everyone would be familiar with it, but I've never heard the word >> >before. >> > Is it UV and weather resistant? >> > >> >Mike Taglieri >> > > > > OK everyone. I have talked to Tom before and he is not looking for the monokote to provide any strength! He is going to glass the wings as the plans call for. He is looking to use monokote only as a surface finish. The structure underneath will be a stock KR. He is just looking to get away from paint. Brian J. Bland, PP, A&P Claremore, OK Building stretched and widened KR-2S (KR-2SS?) KR-2SBuilder@bigfoot.com http://www.busprod.com/bbland/kr2s.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 21:00:10 -0700 From: Bob Bryenton Subject: RE: KR: Hello KRNetters! Brian J. Bland, PP, A&P Wrote: OK everyone. I have talked to Tom before and he is not looking for the monokote to provide any strength! He is going to glass the wings as the plans call for. He is looking to use monokote only as a surface finish. The structure underneath will be a stock KR. He is just looking to get away from paint. I am an RCer that is looking at the KR because it is a big RC plane. (at least it looks like it builds that way). I do not the specs for monokote, but I do know this. I live in Canada where temperature can swing from -40 Farenheiht to 95. The amount that the monokote on some of my models shrinks and expands would cause me to not use this on something I sit in. I have also noticed that if a corner starts to peal, you can loose a big strip in a hurry. The last thing I can add, is that I left the empenage of a crashed plane sat behind the garage for a year. It got snowed on, rained on and suntanned. After a year exposed to all of the elements, it no longer had that nice shine that monokote can provide. Remember, we take our models out of the nice sheltered garage, fly them, wash them and put them back in their shelter. We are not exposed the elements all that much. Just thought I'd join in being new and all. On another note. Can anyone tell me the legal process involved with building here in Canada. That is, can I just start building and fly when its done? Or are there just a few more rules than the RC club? I was a pilot 20 years ago so I have some idea how to flap my arms, but no idea as to where to start with actually building something. "Sometimes you're the bug, and sometimes you're the windshield" =============================== || Bob Bryenton || || Project Leader || || Synapse Publishing || || 8308 - 114 Street || || P.O. Box 52146 || || Edmonton, AB || || Canada || || T6G 2T5 || || Phone: (403) 492 - 7937 || || Fax: (403) 492 - 7253 || ||E-Mail: bob.bryenton@medlib.com || =============================== -----Original Message----- From: bbland@busprod.com [SMTP:bbland@busprod.com] Sent: Saturday, November 22, 1997 8:40 PM To: krnet-l@teleport.com Subject: Re: KR: Hello KRNetters! On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:56:58 -0800, you wrote: >I would have to agree with Lloyd. Being an avid R/Cer for the 15+ >years, monokoting is unacceptable. Monokoting relys on strength on the >underlying support structure i.e. balsa ribs etc. KR's relys on both, >foam/fiberglass to retains the airfoil shape and underlying structure. >Granted I am not an A&P (trying to be one though) but I worked around >big aircraft and little ones to know what works (except for D Fir and >Spruce). > >John F. (trying not offend anyone) Esch >Salem, OR > > >Lloyd Perkins,Jr. wrote: > >> Dear Fellow Modelers/Builders >> As a Certified Aircraft Technician and avid R/C modeler , I can >> truthfully say that Monokoting a KR-2 is totally >> unacceptable!!!!!!!!!!! >> It is not strong enough nor is it cost effective....... Nice try >> though. >> Have a HAPPY THANKSGIVING to all. >> Best Regards, >> LLoyd >> >> On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:53:17 -0500 (EST) MikeTnyc@aol.com writes: >> >In a message dated 97-11-21 20:22:25 EST, you write: >> > >> >>9) I'm Monokoting the entire aircraft as though it were a huge model >> >> >>airplane. This should provide a super-glossy surface with no >> >painting. Prep >> >>will be done using dry micro mix only. "Balsarite" heat-sensitive >> >adhesive >> >>will be sprayed on the airframe as a sealer on all wood, inside and >> >out, and >> >>this will permanently bond the mylar film to the structure, >> including >> >all >> >the >> >>glassed surfaces. >> >>This should save 20 lbs on the airframe as there will be no primer >> or >> >paint >> >>used, and no glass on the fuselage. >> > >> >Could you explain more about Monokoting? This is bonding a mylar >> >film to an >> >airplane rather than painting it? Your comment suggests that you >> >expected >> >everyone would be familiar with it, but I've never heard the word >> >before. >> > Is it UV and weather resistant? >> > >> >Mike Taglieri >> > > > > OK everyone. I have talked to Tom before and he is not looking for the monokote to provide any strength! He is going to glass the wings as the plans call for. He is looking to use monokote only as a surface finish. The structure underneath will be a stock KR. He is just looking to get away from paint. Brian J. Bland, PP, A&P Claremore, OK Building stretched and widened KR-2S (KR-2SS?) KR-2SBuilder@bigfoot.com http://www.busprod.com/bbland/kr2s.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 21:56:49 -0600 From: brian whatcott Subject: Re: KR: Hello KRNetters! On a 900 pound airplane, about 600 lbs of it is hanging from the upper wing surface. Hope that's good adhesive! ( That's why they stitch fabric wings... If the stitching comes adrift on a fabric wing, the upper surface lifts and squeezes the trailing edge which collapses and then.... Oops! Getting carried away here. Not a fabric wing) Brian At 03:40 11/23/97 GMT, you wrote: >... I have talked to Tom before and he is not looking for >the monokote to provide any strength! He is going to glass the wings >as the plans call for. He is looking to use monokote only as a >surface finish. The structure underneath will be a stock KR. He is >just looking to get away from paint. > >Brian J. Bland brian whatcott Altus OK ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:35:20 -0600 From: rmccall Subject: Re: KR: Dual ignition & one set of plugs Marvin, If you get this one figured out, let me know because I want a dual setup. Rich McCall Junction, KS MARVIN MCCOY wrote: > ------------------- > Netters: > Some time back there was a thread about dual ignition and trying > to use one set of plugs. I don't know if anything was ever agreed on. > What would be the problem with two complete ignitions, both > firing all of the time into one set of plugs. With a switch on each > ignition so you could check each ignition by turning off the switch to > each ignition. MSD has a automatic coil selector that I think would > allow you to have two ignitions with two coils going to their coil > selector and then into one set of plugs. > Am I missing something? It seems like you could have two > ignitions firing one set of plugs???? > > Marvin McCoy > Seattle, WA. North end of Boeing field > Mr.Marvin@worldnet.att.net > ----------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:28:15 -0500 (EST) From: TomKR2S@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Hello KRNetters! In a message dated 97-11-23 02:45:32 EST, you write: << >> >>9) I'm Monokoting the entire aircraft as though it were a huge model >> >> >>airplane. This should provide a super-glossy surface with no >> >painting. Prep >> >>will be done using dry micro mix only. "Balsarite" heat-sensitive >> >adhesive >> >>will be sprayed on the airframe as a sealer on all wood, inside and >> >out, and >> >>this will permanently bond the mylar film to the structure, >> including >> >all >> >the >> >>glassed surfaces. >> >>This should save 20 lbs on the airframe as there will be no primer >> or >> >paint >> >>used, and no glass on the fuselage. >> > >> >Could you explain more about Monokoting? This is bonding a mylar >> >film to an >> >airplane rather than painting it? Your comment suggests that you >> >expected >> >everyone would be familiar with it, but I've never heard the word >> >before. >> > Is it UV and weather resistant? >> > >> >Mike Taglieri >> > >> Monokote is a revolutionary covering system where a single layer of clear mylar plastic is bonded to the surface of a structure using pigmented heat-sensitive adhesive which comes already on the mylar. The results revolutionized model airplane covering when it came out in the 70's. There are many types of this covering material out now, each one with a slightly different formulation of either the mylar or the adhesive. I don't particularly care for Monokote brand covering, I would actually use Ultracote in the new formulation. It has far less tendency to bubble up. One thing I'm going to use is Balsarite on all the surfaces as a sealer and additional bonding agent. Balsarite is heat-sensitive also and actually soaks into the wood to seal it and provide the best adhesion to the structure. On the models I've covered with Balsarite and Ultracote the covering is impossible to remove in large pieces, and must be pulled off in tiny segments and then the adhesive sanded off. This Balsarite adhesive will be applied over all the glass surfaces for the same bonding there as well. The porous microballoon filler will be great for the Balsarite to soak into and adhere the covering to. As Brian Bland stated correctly, the Monokote is only going to provide a sealed surface to replace painting. It is, admittedly, not as durable as paint but I have no plan to leave my creation in the elements. I think it's a sin to let ANY airplane sit outdoors in the sun and rain and what else, so my KR-2S would not see any more time outdoors than the typical model airplane. I expect to be able to share a hangar with one other homebuilt for a total of $1k a year hangar expense. I would do the same if it were painted. I am not particularly concerned about UV protection for this reason. Do I have to worry about UV protection if the plane sees only 100 hours of daylight per year? The covering would be going over the fiberglass as the plans call for, and the weave filled appropriately with micro. Admittedly, covering the open stringered turtledeck with monokote causes some hesitation in me. I may foam and glass the turtledeck or cover the stringered structure with 1/32" plywood then monokote that. This idea has produced as much controversy as it did in Rec.aviation.homebuilt where my conclusion was: I'm going to have the largest monokoted aircraft in the world. It'll save me 20 lbs, cost me a bit more, save me 200-300 hours of finishing. It should make the tail lighter also. For all you modelers, when I'm done you can use monokote as a scale finish for your 1/4 scale KR-2S. - -Tom ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:31:23 -0500 (EST) From: TomKR2S@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Hello KRNetters!/Foam and Glass In a message dated 97-11-23 09:12:52 EST, you write: << Dear Fellow Modelers/Builders As a Certified Aircraft Technician and avid R/C modeler , I can truthfully say that Monokoting a KR-2 is totally unacceptable!!!!!!!!!!! It is not strong enough nor is it cost effective....... Nice try though. Have a HAPPY THANKSGIVING to all. Best Regards, LLoyd >> This is what everyone said about urethane foam and fiberglass before Ken Rand came out with TECHNIQUES, TECHNIQUES, TECHNIQUES. :) - -TomKR2S ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:44:34 -0500 (EST) From: EagleGator@aol.com Subject: KR: Applique suface finish With all this talk about Monokote, I thought you might be interested in this. Boeing is testing an applique finish material (or "wall paper" as it has become known) on it's fighter aircraft. I've had it up to 1.8 mach with no signs of delamination, and it appears to be weathering well. It's really too soon for conclusions, as we've only had it on the jet for about 5 months. The test program was started as a life cycle cost savings initiative, which leads me to believe that the material is expensive but durable. I'll see if I can get some info after Thanksgiving and report back, if anyone's interested. Even if the stuff is too expensive, we may be able to point you in the right direction for some lower cost alternatives if you're interested in this type of finish coat. Cheers! Rick Junkin EagleGator@aol.com St. Charles MO ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:46:15 -0500 (EST) From: TomKR2S@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Aileron Modification to work with flaps In a message dated 97-11-23 04:39:54 EST, you write: << This aileron modification looked very easy to do. I have never >heard anyone talk about doing this to a KR. It seems that it may be a >good thing to do since the flaps on the KR are so small. Has anyone had any experience with this or has anyone done it to >a KR??? Any thoughts?? >>When I first started building I looked in to drooping the ailerons because I flew C-207s that had Robertson kits on them which allowed the ailerons to droop about 10 degrees. It made the airplane handle much better at slower speeds. However,..using the stock cable system it became complicated so I gave up on the idea. But the thumb wheel on the push pull tube should work pretty good on a KR utilizing that type of control system. >> Can someone tell me where I could see a pic of this control system with the thumbwheel? I like the idea of push/pull tubes for the aileron system and drooping the ailerons. One thing to mention here is that once you droop the ailerons, your adverse yaw characteristic becomes worse because when you move the ailerons because, one aileron goes down more, and one aileron goes to streamlined position. Has anyone considered spoilers on the stub wings to kill some lift and allow the plane to sink better? - -Tom ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:58:56 -0500 (EST) From: TomKR2S@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Applique suface finish In a message dated 97-11-23 10:46:34 EST, you write: << With all this talk about Monokote, I thought you might be interested in this. Boeing is testing an applique finish material (or "wall paper" as it has become known) on it's fighter aircraft. I've had it up to 1.8 mach with no signs of delamination, and it appears to be weathering well. It's really too soon for conclusions, as we've only had it on the jet for about 5 months. The test program was started as a life cycle cost savings initiative, which leads me to believe that the material is expensive but durable. I'll see if I can get some info after Thanksgiving and report back, if anyone's interested. Even if the stuff is too expensive, we may be able to point you in the right direction for some lower cost alternatives if you're interested in this type of finish coat. Cheers! Rick Junkin EagleGator@aol.com St. Charles MO >> Rick, Lower cost alternatives would be wonderful! Please send any info you have on obtaining the material. I would consider clear or mirror colored mylar sources as well. I'm almost tempted to cover the whole plane in clear mylar and fly it like that. It would make an interesting show as the entire structure would be visible. And inspections would be easier too. There is a chrome color monokote I had considered. This is the same color and reflectiveness as the mylar balloons we see sold in stores. The plane would look like polished aluminum! - -Tom ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:27:15 -0600 From: brian whatcott Subject: Re: KR: Applique suface finish At 10:44 11/23/97 -0500, you wrote: >With all this talk about Monokote, I thought you might be interested in this. > Boeing is testing an applique finish material (or "wall paper" as it has >become known) on its fighter aircraft. ... >Rick Junkin This is evidently an idea whose time has come. The $64 question: what'd they use for the adhesive? Regards brian whatcott Altus OK ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 11:35:53 -0500 (EST) From: ECLarsen81@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Hello KRNetters! Bob, You can contact the EAA Canadian Council at; EAA Canadian Council 2348 Garnet St. Regina, Sask. S4T 3A2 Canada They are more than happy to supply you with all the info you need. Good Luck, and Welcome back! Ed Larsen Mechanical Designer All the Fun, Half the Money! In a message dated 97-11-23 08:08:20 EST, you write: << On another note. Can anyone tell me the legal process involved with building here in Canada. That is, can I just start building and fly when its done? Or are there just a few more rules than the RC club? I was a pilot 20 years ago so I have some idea how to flap my arms, but no idea as to where to start with actually building something. "Sometimes you're the bug, and sometimes you're the windshield" =============================== || Bob Bryenton || || Project Leader || || Synapse Publishing || || 8308 - 114 Street || || P.O. Box 52146 || || Edmonton, AB || || Canada || || T6G 2T5 || || Phone: (403) 492 - 7937 || || Fax: (403) 492 - 7253 || ||E-Mail: bob.bryenton@medlib.com || ======================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:01:50 -0600 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: KR: spoilers Tom wrote: > Has anyone considered spoilers on the stub wings to kill some lift and allow > the plane to sink better? I'm using split flaps on my stub wings, as well as my outboard wings. These provide almost as much lift as the stock flaps system, but will provide more drag to slow you down and "plant" you once in ground effect. For those who aren't familiar with split flaps, they're "simple" flaps hinged such that they pivot down while leaving the upper surface of the wing as a continuous surface (see http://fly.hiwaay.net~langford/flap.gif for a drawing). The pushrod that actuates the flap operates in the gap between stub and outer wing, so no holes are drilled in the spar web. And my flaps will extend from the aft spar giving me much more area (and greater effectiveness) than the plans call for. We can do this now because of the increased ground clearance afforded by the Diehl gear over the stock retracts. The flap handle is mounted on the left side of the cabin to the aft side of the main spar. Didn't use bearings to support the tube, just drilled holes in the plywood wing rib templates and a birch plywood reinforcement. Simple, cheap, and effective. I'll do some pictures and improve on my "controls" section on my web site soon. Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL email at langford@hiwaay.net KR2S project construction at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford - ---------- > From: TomKR2S@aol.com > To: krnet-l@teleport.com > Subject: Re: KR: Aileron Modification to work with flaps > Date: Sunday, November 23, 1997 9:46 AM > > In a message dated 97-11-23 04:39:54 EST, you write: > > << This aileron modification looked very easy to do. I have never > >heard anyone talk about doing this to a KR. It seems that it may be a > >good thing to do since the flaps on the KR are so small. > Has anyone had any experience with this or has anyone done it to > >a KR??? Any thoughts?? > > >>When I first started building I looked in to drooping the ailerons because > I > flew C-207s that had Robertson kits on them which allowed the ailerons to > droop about 10 degrees. It made the airplane handle much better at slower > speeds. However,..using the stock cable system it became complicated so I > gave up on the idea. But the thumb wheel on the push pull tube should work > pretty good on a KR utilizing that type of control system. >> > > > Can someone tell me where I could see a pic of this control system with the > thumbwheel? I like the idea of push/pull tubes for the aileron system and > drooping the ailerons. > One thing to mention here is that once you droop the ailerons, your adverse > yaw characteristic becomes worse because when you move the ailerons because, > one aileron goes down more, and one aileron goes to streamlined position. > > Has anyone considered spoilers on the stub wings to kill some lift and allow > the plane to sink better? > -Tom ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:00:05 -0800 (PST) From: Howard Welte Subject: KR: Headsets ??? Hello All ! I could use some input on Headsets. I'm looking for a second set for my infreqit pasanger to use. I'm on a low budget and need to keep the cost down in the $100 range. the Main use will be to control noice levels for the pasanger and to easy conversation on the intercom (which I already have) comfort and reliablty is the Main requierments after price. let me know what you are using and how you like it ?? Thanks Howard Welte Tracy, Ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:21:57 -0500 (EST) From: TomKR2S@aol.com Subject: KR: Belly Board Effects Can someone describe the effects of a belly board and what this does for the KR? I would think that there's no increase in lift, just an increase in drag. I saw a new 2 seat homebuilt called The Fascination that will be marketed from the Florida area. It is about the size of the Pulsar, but has wood wings, fabric covered, retracts, Rotax 912, sexy lines, huge, thick stabilizer 155mph cruise. It has half-span flaps and can take off in 230 ft and land in 230 ft also. What flap size would it take to make a KR-2 land in that distance? - -Tom ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:32:28 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Applique suface finish At 09:27 AM 11/23/97 -0800, you wrote: I plan to remove the wings and trailer to my home which is 2 miles away from a remote mountain airport. The KR will fit nicely into my shop. Is it unrealistic of me to think that I can do this every time I want to fly? Thanks guys. Hank Happy Thanksgiving to one and all! > > Well after watching the guy at the gathering spend almost 2 hours to install and another 2 hours to remove I have to answer YES it is very unrealistic. I don't think the intent of the WAFs was allow the builder/flyer to remove the wings and trailer it home every time, but to allow the KR to be built in a very small place (no one piece spar to wrestle with). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:35:07 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: spoilers At 12:01 PM 11/23/97 -0600, you wrote: >I'm using split flaps on my stub wings, as well as my outboard wings. >These provide almost as much lift as the stock flaps system, but will >provide more drag to slow you down and "plant" you once in ground effect. But Mark, what if during departure one of your flaps deploy and you find yourself doing aileron rolls on departure? I think your crazy! It will never work! :o) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:05:36 -0600 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR: spoilers Michael Mims wrote: > But Mark, what if during departure one of your flaps deploy and you find > yourself doing aileron rolls on departure? I think your crazy! It will > never work! :o) What REALLY worries me is when that semi truck hits me from behind! Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL email at langford@hiwaay.net KR2S project construction at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 14:25:54 -0800 From: Robert Covington Subject: Re: KR: spoilers >At 12:01 PM 11/23/97 -0600, you wrote: >>I'm using split flaps on my stub wings, as well as my outboard wings. >>These provide almost as much lift as the stock flaps system, but will >>provide more drag to slow you down and "plant" you once in ground effect. > >But Mark, what if during departure one of your flaps deploy and you find >yourself doing aileron rolls on departure? I think your crazy! It will >never work! :o) >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Micheal Mims >Just Plane Nutts in Irvine Ca. >mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net >http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims The flaps have a precut line, like a coupon in the newspaper has. If they get out of balance like that, the flaps will split further, decreasing any useful effect. Barring that they are stressed such that any further stress breaks them off at a similar line at the hinge, restoring controllable flight. I made a similar setup for the passenger seat in case thay give me trouble ever. They get a verbal warning first, then the line about the PIC being the sole authority as to the safe operation of the aircraft, then I let 'em out, legally. New seat pops right in. Robert Covington Fiction Writer Of The Year ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:16:13 -0500 From: haroldp Subject: Re: KR: Hello KRNetters! Bob, The Recreational Aircraft Association (RAA) will also be able to help you with your plans: 152 Harwood Ave. South Ajax, Ontario, Canada L1S 2H6 1-800-387-1028 Fax (905)-428-2415 They will do the inspections of your aircraft while constructing. Good Luck Harold ECLarsen81@aol.com wrote: > Bob, > You can contact the EAA Canadian Council at; > > EAA Canadian Council > 2348 Garnet St. > Regina, Sask. > S4T 3A2 Canada > > They are more than happy to supply you with all the info you need. > > Good Luck, and Welcome back! > > Ed Larsen > Mechanical Designer > All the Fun, Half the Money! > > In a message dated 97-11-23 08:08:20 EST, you write: > > << > On another note. Can anyone tell me the legal process involved with > building here in Canada. That is, can I just start building and fly > when its done? Or are there just a few more rules than the RC club? I > was a pilot 20 years ago so I have some idea how to flap my arms, but no > idea as to where to start with actually building something. > > "Sometimes you're the bug, and sometimes you're the windshield" > > =============================== > || Bob Bryenton || > || Project Leader || > || Synapse Publishing || > || 8308 - 114 Street || > || P.O. Box 52146 || > || Edmonton, AB || > || Canada || > || T6G 2T5 || > || Phone: (403) 492 - 7937 || > || Fax: (403) 492 - 7253 || > ||E-Mail: bob.bryenton@medlib.com || > ======================== ------------------------------ End of krnet-l-digest V1 #175 *****************************