From: owner-krnet-l-digest@teleport.com[SMTP:owner-krnet-l-digest@teleport.com] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 1997 6:29 PM To: krnet-l-digest@teleport.com Subject: krnet-l-digest V1 #195 krnet-l-digest Thursday, December 18 1997 Volume 01 : Number 195 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:38:13 -0700 From: Ron Lee Subject: KR: Why is the NLF Visionary Fund only $660 I probably will never use the results of this exercise but I put in $50. Even if people can only give $10-20, it all helps. Perhaps the dude in charge of this can provide the address to mail checks to again for those folks who are new. Ron Lee ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:02:39 EST From: MikeT nyc Subject: Re: KR: Urethane foam In a message dated 97-12-16 16:59:45 EST, you write: >> The urethane foam that AS&S >> sold me does not belong on an airplane! It has absolutely no peel strength >> and crushes under VERY light pressure. It absolutely sucks! Its the >> primary reason why you see so many KRs with bumpy wings, and you can make >> out exactly where the spars are located in the wing. Trust me skins or hot >> wired cores are the way to go. I am truly surprised that there hasnt been >a >> wing failure do the urethane foam and the way its used in the KR. It goes >> against all of the composite construction methods I have ever read about. >> Who knows, maybe AS&S is selling me the wrong stuff? > I think it is the nature of all Urethane foam. When I started >my project I did a series of tests using urethane and extruded styrene >foam with various laminations. The styrene foam was 25% stiffer then >the urethane in all tests. I did not test for peel strength. > As far as I can see the only redeeming factor for urethane foam >is its resistance to fuel damage. The stuff sucks. But I will most >likely use it on my wings since I will have fuel tanks in the wings. I don't recall who, but someone on this list calculated awhile back that the force per square inch on the foam-to-glass bond is very low. It's hard to believe the peel strength would be insufficient even if you used Elmer's glue to bond it (and lived where it never rained). I think I remember reading that the original KR used styrofoam, so that must be usable with the sanding method in the manual. I might consider using styrofoam, but would probably sand, since I get the impression hotwiring takes two people to do it right. Mike Taglieri ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:02:42 EST From: MikeT nyc Subject: Re: KR: Re: Simplicity of the KR >>A bit tongue-in-cheek coming from a guy who's using a completely different >>airfoil and construction method from the one in the plans, and a gazillion >>other modifications besides. . . . Or did you mean a KR is a simple, easy- >>to-build airplane, unlike the airplane you're designing? >And of course there is that thing that RR has chosen to ignore, I added 2 >more square feet to the horizontal stab because it will make my KR a safer >airplane. Oh yea RR continues to publish incorrect CG ranges for the KR2 so >I guess that's another change, mine will be 15 to 30% airfoil and not the 15 >to 35% suicide zone called out in the plans! So I guess your right, in the >name of wanting to survive my first flight I have made 1/2 a gazillion >changes! I guess I misunderstood. I thought you meant you were using a different airfoil from the RAF 48, but this sounds as though you just plan to limit the published rear CG, which I would do too after Neil Bingham's report. Concerning the tail volume increase, did you calculate it needed this many extra square feet somehow, or was it from comparison with other planes or some other method? And how much thicker do you make the tailspars to compensate for the extra strain? Mike Taglieri ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:49:04 EST From: TANDEM2 Subject: Re: KR: Re: Simplicity of the KR micheal,before i go to sleep again, i just wanted to say, get on with what your doing, i think its great and you should have a hell of a plane for it to. tandem2 back to sleep snoreeeeeeeeeee ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:09:35 EST From: TANDEM2 Subject: Re: KR: KR Gathering Videos what is area 51? i know, i know, i am sleeping, so just tell me what it is and i will go back to sleep. tandem2 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:29:52 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Urethane foam At 12:02 AM 12/18/97 EST, you wrote: I might consider using styrofoam, but would probably sand, since I get the impression hotwiring takes two people to do it right. > >Mike Taglieri > Yep at least two! I fly over and help you! :o) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Remember,..Service Guarantees Citizenship mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:22:29 EST From: MikeT nyc Subject: KR: Re: HELP! reaction to epoxy?? >1) use a respirator (or forced-air, if you can afford it.) I believe >there's a system called "HobbyAir" that came out last year. Supposed >to be inexpensive and decent, but I can't afford a garage, let alone >a project right now, so I can't tell you from personal experience. > >2) Make sure the mask fits! (a bigger problem than you might think) If >you take the mask off after a long period of wear and you don't have a >continuous red "ring" where the mask was... get a smaller size. I have no idea what a proper respirator costs, but today I was in an NYC store that sells a lot of NATO surplus, etc., when I saw a bunch of new surplus gas masks for about $20. Are these equivalent to respirators and are the cannisters (which unscrew) available.commercially? Mike Taglieri ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:22:57 EST From: TANDEM2 Subject: Re: KR: VW help needed ok, here it is, for 6.95 plus 3.00 for s/h you can get it by calling 714 693 1866 for credit card orders or mail to : wright publishing, specialty books, po box 2260, costa messa, ca 92628. oh yes, canadian and foreign orders pay withinternational money order in us funds and include 1.50 extra per book by ground, 5.00 per copy by air mail. great book and lots of ideas, hope this helps tandem2 type 4 vw rules ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:36:58 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Re: Simplicity of the KR At 12:02 AM 12/18/97 EST, you wrote: >Concerning the tail volume increase, did you calculate it needed this many extra square feet somehow, or was it from comparison with other planes or some other method? And how much thicker do you make the tailspars to compensate for the extra strain? > >Mike Taglieri > > I used the spread sheets from Roncz to determine how large the tail should be to provide the stability I am looking for (somewhere between a RV and a A-36) The aft spars were only tapered to 1 inch at the tips instead of 5/8. Later I checked this with a program called Sparana and it is more than strong enough. Under standard operations the horizontal should be encountering a negative loading that is very light. Of course,..your results may vary! Oh yea before I had the opportunity to check the horizontal spars I laid up a 5 inch wide 3 ply uni spar cap over the top of the spruce spar. (Extra precaution) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Remember,..Service Guarantees Citizenship mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:37:46 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Re: Simplicity of the KR At 11:49 PM 12/17/97 EST, you wrote: >micheal,before i go to sleep again, i just wanted to say, get on with what >your doing, i think its great and you should have a hell of a plane for it to. > >tandem2 > >back to sleep > >snoreeeeeeeeeee > Thanks,... I think! :o) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Remember,..Service Guarantees Citizenship mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:40:36 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: KR Gathering Videos At 12:09 AM 12/18/97 EST, you wrote: >what is area 51? i know, i know, i am sleeping, so just tell me what it is and >i will go back to sleep. > >tandem2 > Well I could tell you but I would have to uh...............hunt you down! Yea thats it,..hunt you down! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Happy Holidays to Everyone! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:12:49 EST From: BSHADR Subject: Re: KR: NLF Visionary Fund at $660 In a message dated 97-12-18 00:07:04 EST, you write: << OK, now who is the check made out too Steve Eberhart or New Technology Associates Inc. >> Either will work just fine...Steve's wife likes the checks made out to him for the hot tub fund, but if you make them out to the company they go to his wife's deck fund... Randy (really in trouble now) Stein ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:12:39 EST From: BSHADR Subject: KR: Re: video - seminar portion In a message dated 97-12-17 20:34:22 EST, you write: << >Well there pard'ner, Video Bob has lots of footage. I'm not sure how good it is, but I suspect we'll see construction video(s) in the near future dedicated to particular subjects.>>>> If the audio on the composite portion is poor I would be willing to dub in (record a voice over on what we did) to make it work. Bob?? >> Well Bob, looks like your holidays just got filled with more work. Maybe we can get a number of the presenters to "dub" as needed. What-da-ya-say Bob? Ever notice how I always can find work for others to do? Makes me a good boss. Too bad nobody wants a boss :( Randy Stein BSHADR@aol.com Soviet Monica, CA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:20:42 -0800 From: "John F. Esch" Subject: KR: surplus run I probably will doing a Boeing Surplus Store (Seattle, WA) run in January and was wondering if you guys can give me some ideas of what I should be looking for. I will be starting on my -2S here soon, so any ideas of tools that I could probably use for building would help. John F. Esch Salem, OR ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:12:51 EST From: BSHADR Subject: Re: KR: KR Gathering Videos In a message dated 97-12-18 00:31:00 EST, TANDEM2 wrote: << what is area 51? i know, i know, i am sleeping, so just tell me what it is and i will go back to sleep. >> I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you - then you would really be sleeping...! Randy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:58:04 +0900 From: mouse@heiwa.com Subject: Re: KR: NLF Visionary Fund at $660 I bet their house will look pretty good by the time this is all finished. At least the new hot tub and deck. KR>In a message dated 97-12-18 00:07:04 EST, you write: KR><< OK, now who is the check made out too Steve Eberhart or New Technology KR> Associates Inc. >> KR>Either will work just fine...Steve's wife likes the checks made out to him f KR>the hot tub fund, but if you make them out to the company they go to his KR>wife's deck fund... KR>Randy (really in trouble now) Stein ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 07:10:07 -0600 From: ejanssen@chipsnet.com (Ed Janssen) Subject: KR: PerryKosh Audio? I asked this once before, but I would like to make one last plea to you guys out there who went to Perry. Did anyone tape, audio or video, the rather informal evening session on the early development of the KR? I had a sick one in our group who needed to return to the motel, so I missed it. Later I find out that it had developed into one of the most interesting parts of the whole weekend - RATS! I'm told that video Bob missed it too. What a shame. I'll pay big bucks :-) if someone out there has something. Thanks! Ed Janssen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:03:30 PST From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: KR: video Mike wrote: > >If the audio on the composite portion is poor I would be willing to dub in >(record a voice over on what we did) to make it work. Bob?? >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Micheal Mims >Remember,..Service Guarantees Citizenship > I love it! Kinda like the old Godzilla movies, where the audio and the moving lips don't sync! Hey, Micheal- how about English subtitles? BTW- My only whine is that I haven't gotten my own video yet... and I sent in the money WEEKS ago! At least it seems that long... Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:01:47 -0500 From: "Richard Parker" Subject: KR: Re: Progress Report - ---------- > From: Austin Clark > To: krnet-l@teleport.com > Subject: KR: Progress Report > Date: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 5:04 PM > > Not much done on the KR the past two weeks. My Aircraft Manufacturing > Facility has become Santa's Workshop. I finally managed to put up a web > page though with some pictures of my project along with a few 'builders > tips' that might help some just getting started. Rich Parker, KRnetter from > New Hampshire, dropped by a couple weeks ago. (Really enjoyed the visit > Rich and can you believe 8" of snow a few miles north of here? It's not > supposed to do that this far south!) Anyway, my web page is at > > http://www.datasync.com/~itac/ > > You guys have a Merry Christmas and keep the holidays safe while I try to > figure out how to cure epoxy in this kind of weather! > > Oh, and the ~ is not a - it's a ~ > > Austin Clark > KR2S > Pascagoula MS. Are you sure that wasnt a dream? I have a hard time beleiving it snowed down there. It was 65 and humid when I left. I got back to 12 degrees and dry enough to make your nostrils bleed. Really enjoyed the visit. I've already got my table materials and it will be built like yours. (but a little higher for the tail post) the wood is on order. When you are ready for Cleveland wheels and brakes let me know the part numbers - I think I can get them at a little over manufacturing cost since I work for Parker-Hannifin But more importantly I wanted to let the other Kr-netters in on your special filler material that made your horizontal stab smooth as a babies bottom. Can you give us the details? and where we can get it? Off to England for Christmas then when I return the dust is really going to fly. (My wife is complaining already) Rich Parker ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:09:32 PST From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: KR: It takes two to hotwire Mike wrote: >I might consider using >styrofoam, but would probably sand, since I get the impression hotwiring takes >two people to do it right. > >Mike Taglieri > > Hi, Mike I know people are generally cold and unfriendly in NYC, but there are KRNetters available to help with the hot-wiring, buddy! This sounds like the way to go, so put out the word when you get ready, and you'll have help to hotwire. There's always the 'personals' column in the paper, if that doesn't work... Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:13:53 PST From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: KR: Transcontinental KR/was Urethane foam Micheal wrote to Mike T: >> > >Yep at least two! I fly over and help you! :o) >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Micheal Mims >Remember,..Service Guarantees Citizenship > Hey, Micheal- You realize that Mike T. is in the Big Apple? Keep in the back of your mind a record attempt for KRs- L.A. to N.Y.C.- you could put in an aux. tank and a relief tube, throw in some Twinkies and orange juice, and make like Rutan! Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:27:57 PST From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: KR: VW help- thanks Thanks to all the Netters who responded on the search for the "Hot VWs" issue; I've made contact and will get a copy sent out to Anton in Gauteng (that's South Africa) so his dad can try to wring 100 HP out of a VW. This net stuff really works! Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:36:01 -0600 (CST) From: Steven A Eberhart Subject: Re: KR: NLF Visionary Fund at $660 On Thu, 18 Dec 1997 mouse@heiwa.com wrote: > I bet their house will look pretty good by the time this is all > finished. At least the new hot tub and deck. > Yup, a honeycomb core carbon fiber hot tub, now you are talking. Actually, you can make out the checks to Steve Eberhart with a memo "for NLF fund. and mail to: Steve Eberhart P.O. Box 9227 Evansville, IN 47724 Thanks for the state of the art wind tunnel tested carbon fiber hot tub ;-) All contributors are invited for the first flight of the tub. Steve (doing aquanautical analysis) Eberhart > KR>In a message dated 97-12-18 00:07:04 EST, you write: > > KR><< OK, now who is the check made out too Steve Eberhart or New Technology > KR> Associates Inc. >> > > KR>Either will work just fine...Steve's wife likes the checks made out to him f > KR>the hot tub fund, but if you make them out to the company they go to his > KR>wife's deck fund... > > KR>Randy (really in trouble now) Stein > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:57:03 -0600 (CST) From: Steven A Eberhart Subject: Re: KR: Re: Simplicity of the KR On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Micheal Mims wrote: > At 12:02 AM 12/18/97 EST, you wrote: > >Concerning the tail volume increase, did you calculate it needed this many > extra square feet somehow, or was it from comparison with other planes or > some other method? And how much thicker do you make the tailspars to > compensate for the extra strain? > > > >Mike Taglieri > > > > > I used the spread sheets from Roncz to determine how large the tail should > be to provide the stability I am looking for (somewhere between a RV and a > A-36) The aft spars were only tapered to 1 inch at the tips instead of 5/8. > Later I checked this with a program called Sparana and it is more than > strong enough. Under standard operations the horizontal should be > encountering a negative loading that is very light. Of course,..your results > may vary! > Mike, Where did you get the Ronz spread sheets and the Sparana program? Are they public domain? Steve > Oh yea before I had the opportunity to check the horizontal spars I laid up > a 5 inch wide 3 ply uni spar cap over the top of the spruce spar. (Extra > precaution) > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Micheal Mims > Remember,..Service Guarantees Citizenship > > mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net > http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:09:35 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Transcontinental KR/was Urethane foam At 06:13 AM 12/18/97 PST, you wrote: >Hey, Micheal- > >You realize that Mike T. is in the Big Apple? > Trust me I know where Mike lives! :o) Hey I could plan it just right to catch the jetstream with my turbo fired fuel injected inverted V, BMW/Hispano flapper snark! The record books would require editing for sure! PS Yes thats the powerplant of the week! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Happy Holidays to all!!! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:15:11 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Re: Simplicity of the KR At 08:57 AM 12/18/97 -0600, you wrote: >Mike, > >Where did you get the Ronz spread sheets and the Sparana program? Are >they public domain? > >Steve The spreadsheets are from the articles he did for Kitplanes (maybe SA) and the Sparana program I believe is shareware. I can check the registration info when I get home and post it if there is interest. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Happy Holidays to all!!! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:26:12 -0500 From: Patrick Flowers Subject: KR: Powerplant Of The Week Micheal Mims wrote: > > ...turbo fired fuel injected inverted V, BMW/Hispano flapper snark! > > PS Yes thats the powerplant of the week! Mike, that sounds like a catchy title for a new web page feature! You could even have a page for past POTW's, but you'd need to buy more server space. {:o) Patrick - -- Patrick Flowers Mailto:patri63@ibm.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:40:04 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Powerplant Of The Week At 11:26 AM 12/18/97 -0500, you wrote: You could even have a page for past POTW's, but you'd need to buy more >server space. {:o) > >Patrick Well just like the other POTW's I cant afford more server space! Just joking! Hey last night while in dream mode I had a cool thought, wouldn't it be cool to build a small (2/3 or 3/4 scale) ME109 or FW190 with a BWM (the car not the scooter) or Mercedes four cylinder engine with a redrive from reductions? The 16v engine from the Mercedes 190 or the 1800 from the 318ti would make great little powerplants, yes a little on the expensive side but it was only a dream! Keep in mind I live in an area where at least 50% of the cars carry either the BMW or Mercedes Benz badge! (we like our German road cars here in Southern California) Needless to say the salvage yards are loaded with them! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Happy Holidays to all!!! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:50:15 -0600 From: Robert.Johnson1@ipaper.com Subject: KR: Limbach Dose anybody out ther know where to get parts and information for this engine. Address phone number email etc. I have inherited a kr2 with one of these engine in it. It is a 2000 cc mount with 80 hp at 3500. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:08:40 -0800 From: David Moore Subject: Re: KR:Area 51 At 12:09 AM 12/18/97 EST, you wrote: >what is area 51? i know, i know, i am sleeping, so just tell me what it is and >i will go back to sleep. > >tandem2 Area 51 is the top secret military base outside Las Vegas, north of Nellis Air Force Base, where it is said alien space craft are tested. It is also the Top Secret testing grounds for military aircraft, like the F-117, F22. David Moore Turnkey1@MSComm.Com Hesperia, Calif. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:20:45 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Limbach At 11:50 AM 12/18/97 -0600, you wrote: >Dose anybody out ther know where to get parts and information for this engine. >> I don't know off hand but will look it up when I get home. While we are on the subject of Limbachs, I was reading an article in an old issue of SA about the Limbach story! I kinda chuckled when the founder made the comment that he had a hell of a time building an engine for the "American" market because of the dual ignition requirement! He said its funny how the americans seem to be caught up on needing two ignitions even on there non-certified engines, he said his single ignition model just didn't sell all that well and when he added a second ignition sales took off! He was reluctant to add the second ignition by the way it sounds but had to due to consumer demand. Sounds like that dead horse is in fact really old!! Wheeeww what a smelly animal it must be for Mr. Limbach! :o) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Happy Holidays to all!!! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:07:41 GMT From: bbland@busprod.com (Brian Bland) Subject: Re: KR: KR Gathering Videos On Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:12:51 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-12-18 00:31:00 EST, TANDEM2 wrote: > ><< what is area 51? i know, i know, i am sleeping, so just tell me what = it is >and > i will go back to sleep. >> > >I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you - then you would really = be >sleeping...! > >Randy I'm with Randy and Mike. We could tell you but then we would have to hunt you down and then kill you... Brian J. Bland, PP, A&P Claremore, OK Building stretched and widened KR-2S=20 KR-2SBuilder@bigfoot.com http://www.busprod.com/bbland/kr2s.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:40:39 EST From: BSHADR Subject: KR: KRKosh Audio? In a message dated 97-12-18 08:20:29 EST, you write: << I asked this once before, but I would like to make one last plea to you guys out there who went to Perry. Did anyone tape, audio or video, the rather informal evening session on the early development of the KR? I had a sick one in our group who needed to return to the motel, so I missed it. Later I find out that it had developed into one of the most interesting parts of the whole weekend - RATS! >> Ed: You are right about how good it was. Vewy vewy rare evening. Dan D, Steve B, Ernie K and Jeannette all spoke at length about the history of the KR. I didn't see much in the way of videos running. I was set to full whine to get all of these folks to even get up there and talk that evening. Jim Fields was the guy who got this rolling - his idea to start with. Randy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:55:45 -0800 From: Robert Covington Subject: Re: KR:Area 51 >At 12:09 AM 12/18/97 EST, you wrote: >>what is area 51? i know, i know, i am sleeping, so just tell me what it is >and >>i will go back to sleep. >> >>tandem2 > >Area 51 is the top secret military base outside Las Vegas, north of Nellis >Air Force Base, where it is said alien space craft are tested. >It is also the Top Secret testing grounds for military aircraft, like the >F-117, F22. > > >David Moore >Turnkey1@MSComm.Com >Hesperia, Calif. It is also a hangar at PerryKosh that has some funky KR's under development. ;) Robert Covington ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:05:57 -0600 (CST) From: Steven A Eberhart Subject: KR: NLF update Just received the master CNC machined templates for teh NLF(1)0115 airfoil from Dr. Selig. Boy are they beautiful - CNC machined 5/16" black plexiglass . Now all that I have to do is make the wind tunnel wing match the templates +- .008". Don't you just love the "all you have to do" statement! I think this is the place where the cursing starts. Will let you know how close I was able to get to the template profile. Since my business is statistical process control software I will let you know how close to being in control my profiling process turns out to be :-) Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:46:56 -0500 From: "Jeremy Casey" Subject: KR: Pitch Sensitivity I have a question for the designer/engineer/builder/pilot kind of people out there. I have read about the super pitch sensitive stick in the KR series of planes and I talked with a RANS S-6 builder/pilot('96 Sun-n-Fun grand champion from LaGrange, GA.) about the same problem on the S-6. I had a simple fix for this I thought but it is so simple I'm sure that it wouldn't work. I really am asking for a BBQ'ing I think but that's all right ...Fire me up! My fix goes like this.... for any given movement of the elevator, up or down there is a a movement of the push-pull tube going from the bottom of the stick back to the elevator control horn. The problem comes back to even with a slight fore/aft movement of the stick it has a large input of control authority on the elevator. Well (time to show my redneck engineering skills!) it makes sense to me that if you reduced the distance from the pivot point of the control stick to the connection to the elevator push-pull tube then you would in effect give the stick greater tolerance to pitch inputs (i.e. fore/aft movement) Note: As this all fits together in my mind this could be done without any effect on control linkages to the ailerons, thus no effect to that control axis. Now I am going to play devil's advocate against myself... The down side to doing that is the reduced range of motion of the elevator. Now I don't know how much control movement of the elevator is required throughout the whole flight regime so I don't know if this would be a problem or not. Someone who knows more than me tell me why this wouldn't reduce the stick sensitivity. (Probably 'band-aid on cancer' or whatever but I am curious ) Jeremy Casey jrcasey@mindspring.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:42:37 -0500 From: mscott@wlgore.com Subject: Re: KR: Pitch Sensitivity Jeremy, I have also wondered in the past if the fix you suggested would be the way to go. However, after reading more posts about pitch sensitivity, I don't think most people are talking about sensitivity due solely to control input and elevator throw. It sounds to me like what we're really talking about here is a lack of sufficient dampening in the pitch axis, thus making the aircraft very sensitive to pitch oscillations. Please somebody jump in now if I am not correct. I have not flown a KR, only read about them. This is what I've concluded in my own mind after reading on this list. Of course, if this is the case, for more dampening you do what Mike Mims and others are trying, increase the tail moment, increase stabilizer (not elevator) area, or some combination of both. Would someone else with flying experience in the KR's like to jump in here and let me know if this is correct? jrcasey@mindspring.com on 12/18/97 04:46:56 PM Please respond to krnet-l@teleport.com To: krnet-l@teleport.com cc: (bcc: Mark L Scott/WLGORE) Subject: KR: Pitch Sensitivity I have a question for the designer/engineer/builder/pilot kind of people out there. I have read about the super pitch sensitive stick in the KR series of planes and I talked with a RANS S-6 builder/pilot('96 Sun-n-Fun grand champion from LaGrange, GA.) about the same problem on the S-6. I had a simple fix for this I thought but it is so simple I'm sure that it wouldn't work. I really am asking for a BBQ'ing I think but that's all right ...Fire me up! My fix goes like this.... for any given movement of the elevator, up or down there is a a movement of the push-pull tube going from the bottom of the stick back to the elevator control horn. The problem comes back to even with a slight fore/aft movement of the stick it has a large input of control authority on the elevator. Well (time to show my redneck engineering skills!) it makes sense to me that if you reduced the distance from the pivot point of the control stick to the connection to the elevator push-pull tube then you would in effect give the stick greater tolerance to pitch inputs (i.e. fore/aft movement) Note: As this all fits together in my mind this could be done without any effect on control linkages to the ailerons, thus no effect to that control axis. Now I am going to play devil's advocate against myself... The down side to doing that is the reduced range of motion of the elevator. Now I don't know how much control movement of the elevator is required throughout the whole flight regime so I don't know if this would be a problem or not. Someone who knows more than me tell me why this wouldn't reduce the stick sensitivity. (Probably 'band-aid on cancer' or whatever but I am curious ) Jeremy Casey jrcasey@mindspring.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:36:05 -0600 From: brian whatcott Subject: Re: KR: Urethane foam At 00:02 12/18/97 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-12-16 16:59:45 EST, you write: > >... someone on this list calculated awhile back that the >force per square inch on the foam-to-glass bond is very low. It's hard to >believe the peel strength would be insufficient even if you used Elmer's glue >to bond it (and lived where it never rained). >... >Mike Taglieri Ah: a back of the envelope estimate - that's my specialty! Lessee: picking numbers from the air... for a wing 20 ft long and 3 ft wide, say 2/3 of the load is suspended from the upper surface. Let's say the weight is 1200 lb so 20 x 3 = 60 sq feet has to hold 2/3 of 1200 lb at a limiting load factor of say x6 with a design factor of say x1.5 What does that come up with? 800 x 6 x 1.5 / 60 lb/sq ft = 720/6 = 120 lb/sq ft and that's less than 14 ounces per sq inch. I'm with Mike: Elmer can do MUCH better than this... brian whatcott Altus OK ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:28:03 -0800 From: MARVIN MCCOY Subject: Re: KR: Re: HELP! reaction to epoxy?? MikeT nyc wrote: > > >1) use a respirator (or forced-air, if you can afford it.) I believe > >there's a system called "HobbyAir" that came out last year. Supposed > >to be inexpensive and decent, but I can't afford a garage, let alone > >a project right now, so I can't tell you from personal experience. > > > >2) Make sure the mask fits! (a bigger problem than you might think) If > >you take the mask off after a long period of wear and you don't have a > >continuous red "ring" where the mask was... get a smaller size. > > I have no idea what a proper respirator costs, but today I was in an NYC store > that sells a lot of NATO surplus, etc., when I saw a bunch of new surplus gas > masks for about $20. Are these equivalent to respirators and are the > cannisters (which unscrew) available.commercially? > > Mike Taglieri------------------------ Mike: The gas mask will work, but a good safety respirator would be more comfortable. Any safety supply store will have them. I am sure wicks and others also have them. I have one that has one canister and it can be replaced with just a plain dust catcher t make it even lighter. It is light weight and the rubber makes a good seal. I think just as important as a respirator is to get a couple boxes of surgical gloves. Only about $12 a box. Always wear surgical gloves and never let the epoxy touch your skin. Keep in mind that some people are allergic to latex. So some people will need to get the other type of glove. I have worked with epoxy for over twenty years and I have seen others get sensitized to it and it will ruin your day. Once you are sensitized it only takes a brief smell of epoxy to give you hives all over your body. You won't even be able to walk into your shop without having some kind of problems. Marvin McCoy Seattle, WA. North end of Boeing field Mr.Marvin@worldnet.att.net - ----------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:45:27 -0600 From: brian whatcott Subject: Re: KR: Pitch Sensitivity At 16:46 12/18/97 -0500, you wrote: > I have read about the super pitch sensitive stick in the KR series of >planes and I talked with a RANS S-6 builder/pilot... about the same problem on the S-6. I had a >simple fix for this I thought but it is so simple I'm sure that it wouldn't >work.... My fix goes like this.. if you reduced the distance from the >pivot point of the control stick to the connection to the elevator push-pull >tube then you would in effect give the stick greater tolerance to pitch >inputs (i.e. fore/aft movement) ... >Jeremy Casey jrcasey@mindspring.com When faced with a 'sensitive stick' in pitch, some folks guess the solution is to increase the stick displacement per elevator deflection, and other folks think the way to go is to increase the stick force per elevator deflection. Of the two options, the latter is likely to be more successful but it must be agreed that they are both bandaids on the basic problem that, when you push the tail down, it wants to keep going, or put another way, it doesn't want to return to its previous position strongly enough. That behavior is described by two measurements called static and dynamic pitch stability. One easy way of getting bad behavior like this is to place the CG too far aft. The corresponding solution is easy to see as well. If it is just a 'control feel' issue, something like a strong centering spring would improve matters, but its the safety issue that's more worrying: if a gust permits the aircraft to adopt a new pitch attitude, then that's a 'nervy' machine. Another cause of 'nervousness' is the effect of pulling G on the stick force - you would like the stick force to increase as G force increases - so that a sneeze didn't take you to the edge of the envelope. Well, I could drone on some more - but I won't Regards brian whatcott Altus OK ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:00:14 -0800 From: MARVIN MCCOY Subject: Re: KR: surplus run John F. Esch wrote: > > I probably will doing a Boeing Surplus Store (Seattle, WA) run in > January and was wondering if you guys can give me some ideas of what I > should be looking for. I will be starting on my -2S here soon, so any > ideas of tools that I could probably use for building would help. > > John F. Esch > Salem, OR-------------------- John: The Boeing surplus store is different all the time. Some times you find good stuff at bargain prices. But you need to be careful. They price a lot of things by the pound. And some things when weighed are just to expensive. Everytime I go there I find something to buy. Lately they have had some good safety wire twisters for only $10.00. I have got large C-clamps for $1.00 an inch. But you never know what they have until you get there. There is always lots of aluminum, titanium, etc. Good luck and have fun. Marvin McCoy Seattle, WA. North end of Boeing field Mr.Marvin@worldnet.att.net - ----------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:41:47 From: Austin Clark Subject: KR: Fumed Silica (was Progress Report) Dream? ... no, it was on the news, so it must have been real ;-) Could have been some of that white fluffy stuff I am using as a filler though. It's Aerosil 200 brand fumed silica. The company I work for produces it and they gave me a bag of it because I told them if they didn't, I would be forced to go with the competitor. You should be able to find it at fiberglass materials supply houses. I have a link from my web page to RAKA. I think they sell it. From my main page, follow the links 'builder tips' to '...fumed silica' to 'learn more about using epoxy'. I add it to my epoxy until I get a honey type consistency and then spread it with a squeegee. After it cures, I sand it with 60 grit, then 80 and finally 120 grit. I mix it a little thicker (peanut butter consistency) and use it to fillet joints. I also use it as micro over the foam just before laying on the cloth. It's very light weight; the plastic cup I use to scoop it weighs more than the Aerosil that fills it up. Austin Clark http://www.datasync.com/~itac/ At 09:01 12/18/97 -0500, you wrote: > > >Are you sure that wasnt a dream? I have a hard time beleiving it snowed >down there. It was 65 and humid when I left. I got back to 12 degrees and >dry enough to make your nostrils bleed. > >Really enjoyed the visit. I've already got my table materials and it will >be built like yours. (but a little higher for the tail post) the wood is >on order. >When you are ready for Cleveland wheels and brakes let me know the part >numbers - I think I can get them at a little over manufacturing cost since >I work for Parker-Hannifin > >But more importantly I wanted to let the other Kr-netters in on your >special filler material that made your horizontal stab smooth as a babies >bottom. Can you give us the details? and where we can get it? > >Off to England for Christmas then when I return the dust is really going to >fly. (My wife is complaining already) > >Rich Parker > > > > ------------------------------ End of krnet-l-digest V1 #195 *****************************