From: owner-krnet-l-digest@teleport.com[SMTP:owner-krnet-l-digest@teleport.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 1998 10:18 AM To: krnet-l-digest@teleport.com Subject: krnet-l-digest V2 #13 krnet-l-digest Wednesday, January 14 1998 Volume 02 : Number 013 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:00:40 PST From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: KR: KR Newsletters 1-100 Bill wrote: >given the ease and low cost of making cdroms using CD-r media I would vote for >putting them on cdrom with a good xref. And I would volunteer to burn them onto CDs, provided we're not talking hundreds of copies. Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:09:22 -0800 From: Peter Hudson Subject: KR: Landing Light lens results Hi Gang, Well the landing light cover(s) are done. I made three. The first was droopy when hot but not enough to make the L.E. radius of the mold easily...it will probably work any way with a little help from the hold down screws. The next two came out pretty good. It took 325F (on my oven) for just a few minutes. Two things I learned were make sure the method for holding the plexi is secure. The first one I had just clamped with wood but I pulled of the wood as I streched it over the mold. The second two I made a little longer and screwed the wood the the plexi which worked well. The second thing I learned was 1/8 inch was thicker than I really needed. 1/16 inch would have worked fine more tolerant of being forced to match the wing profile if I was off a little. (I made the third one for a spare as long as the material was one hand, the tools out and the oven hot). Now it's time to hack up the wing center section I so lovingly created a while ago. - -Peter Hudson- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:18:46 EST From: MikeT nyc Subject: Re: KR: let's just call it a preference In a message dated 98-01-13 21:34:54 EST, you write: >One of my primary reasons for building a KR2 is SPEED. My time is very >important to me, and the faster I can get somewhere, the happier I am. [snip] >And for me, there's a limit to "stall proofing" an airplane. If it takes 3 >degrees of washout and a wing that mushes forever before stalling to >tell you that you're in trouble, maybe you shouldn't be flying after all. It >just depends on what's important to you. Do you mean a person can get more speed out of the traditional RAF 48 just by reducing the washout a bit? Has anybody tried this and how much would it be reduced? Would I be correct in assuming that reducing the washout a degree or so would not decrease the stall speed, but only the gentleness of the stall when it comes? Mike Taglieri ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:37:56 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: let's just call it a preference At 11:18 PM 1/13/98 EST, you wrote: Do you mean a person can get more speed out of the traditional RAF 48 just by reducing the washout a bit? Has anybody tried this and how much would it be reduced? >>>> Adrian Carter only used 2 degrees and there was a KR2 in SA or Kitplanes a few years back that used 1.5 degrees. Both KRs use 1835 VW and had pretty respectable cruise speeds! Something to think about, and yes the more washout you have the more drag you could be creating. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Oh My,.......Its 1998!! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:18:50 EST From: MikeT nyc Subject: Re: KR: composite skins?? (long) >After cure hold the skin up next to the fuselage again and now trace around >all the vertical members as well as the longerons. Now lay the skin on a >flat surface again and using a x-acto knife cut into the foam along each >line (actually about 1/4 inch to the outside of each line, outside meaning >the side away from the spruce member), you will want to cut through the >foam and down to the outer skin but not through the skin. Next use a >scraper to chisel up all the foam between the knife cuts. The idea is to >remove all the foam where it will contact the wood structure plus some. This >means the foam should be removed all along the top and bottom edges as well >as where the vertical members are located. Use some 60 grit sand paper and >round all the edges so the inside glass skin will lay over the contoured >surface better. Also you will want to lightly sand the area where the >inside skin will make contact with the outside skin (glass to glass area) >Now lay up your inside skin by applying one layer of 6 oz . Use a paint >brush and a stipple motion to help get the glass down into the valleys. This >layer will be applied with the fibers running fore and aft. Use peelply in >all the future bond sites (where the spruce structure will come in contact >with the skin). > >After cure peel up all the peel ply in the inside and flox into position on >the spruce structure. . . . Do you put another layer of glass on the inside after you flox the skin in place? If not, why even have the foam? Mike Taglieri ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:18:53 EST From: MikeT nyc Subject: Re: KR: Spar question >>I'm getting ready to glue up my spars and I want to make the holes for >>ventilating and equalizing the airpressure that might develop in the sealed >areas of the spar. Where does everybody locate those holes? In the > verticals, and vent out the ends, or in the web, or what? Is an 1/8" hole > large enough or too large? What is typically used for preservation inside > the spars? A spar varnish, something like MinWax Polyurethane or what? >> > > Bob, I used an 1/8" drill bit in the middle of each spar "cell" and on the >aft shear web. I coated the inside of the spar with 2 coats of the MinWax >Poly. I did find that the 1/8" holes closed up a little with the varnish but >didn't seem to be anything to be concerned about. These holes also help water to run out that accumulates from condensation, so I would put them at the bottom of the aft shear web, in the middle, which may be what you mean. Mike Taglieri ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:45:31 EST From: XZOSTD1 Subject: KR: Sun-N-Fun KR Forum??? Is there a KR forum scheduled at Sun-N-Fun?? I E-Mailed their web site,they replied that they don't have the schedule ready yet and it won't be available for some time. Any info would be appreciated. Also if any one is interested In a nice to to stay for Sun-N-Fun I will give Info. on were I stayed last year. Camberley Plaza Suites, Sabal Park Tampa I paid $115.00 per night for a 2 room suite. Very very nice place Restaurant was pricey, Pianist in the piano bar was a goddess. Located East of Tampa just off of I-4 about 35 min. from room to parked at fly in. Bill Huntley KR2S with all the woodwork done. Green Bay ( Home Of The Green Bay Packers) WI. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:53:57 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: composite skins?? (long) At 11:18 PM 1/13/98 EST, you wrote: >Do you put another layer of glass on the inside after you flox the skin in >place? If not, why even have the foam? > >Mike Taglieri > Note in this example, you already laid up the inner skin before you floxed it into place. Remember a composite structure needs a core of some kind, I think two or three layers of fiberglass alone would be a poor substitute for the 3/32 plywood. Try building a composite test piece and you will see what I mean. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Oh My,.......Its 1998!! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:46:29 EST From: MikeT nyc Subject: Re: KR: Re: Construction update. >> My plans are 1980 plans and did not show the engine mount alum. support. >What >> size alum is everyone using, I'm guessing 6061 is the grade. > >RR sells you two 36" long pieces of 4" x 2.5" x 1/8" 6061-T6511 (call it >T6). The bottom angle is supposed to be somehow miraculously expanded to >fit the 100 degree angle between the bottom 3.5" x 5/8" firewall cross >members, while the upper one connects the top cross member to the deeper of >the two upper plywood shelves (the one about 3" below the longeron). Get >some 4 x 4 and rip it down to 2.5" on a tablesaw (with a blade that you >need an excuse to throw away). My manual (p. 16) shows the aluminum angle only on the top engine mount (and drawing #1 doesn't show it on either), so where are you finding the one on the bottom? Is this an addition for the KR2-S? Mike Taglieri ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:39:42 EST From: JEHayward Subject: Re: KR: Diel Gear In a message dated 98-01-13 19:04:24 EST, you write: << I got my Diel gear today and I am impressed. These things are heavy duty and the workmanship is great to. It looks like I am going to have to move/modify the 48" rib near the fuselage to mount the brackets. No big deal. ....... Any advice on mounting these would be welcome. >> Hi Austin.... I've got his gear too, and mounted mine out toward the ends of the center spar which put them about 1/4" from the ends of the wing attach fittings. There are at least 2 other builders that are doing or have done the same thing. Troy Pettway's KR-2 is this way, has a very nice wide stance and, I'm told, handles beautifully on the ground. I wanted to have really good ground handling since I have no tail-dragger time. Jim Hayward ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:16:03 -0800 From: Ross Subject: Re: KR: Break System Question Ron Lee wrote: > > At 02:30 PM 1/12/98 -0800, you wrote: > > >I am presently building a KR2S and am having trouble with the brake master > >cylinder installation. My rudder pedals were fabricated from tubing and are > >hung from above and I have no ideas on the linkage to the brake cylinders. I > >would like to have toe brakes but do not want to put pressure on the rudder > >when I apply the brakes. I am interested on how others have solved this > >problem. > > > >Dan Shervheim > >Dan@aol.com > > Perhaps you should rethink your comment. I suspect that you would want FULL > RUDDER travel BEFORE you ever apply brakes in most cases. Any comments from > the KR peanut gallery? > > Ron Lee What if you want to stop in a straight line? When I think of full rudder travel I'm thinking one pedal fully depressed. What did you have in mind? -- Ross ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:28:59 -0800 From: Ross Subject: KR: Re:KR Flight Training program (was Test Plan) Rick, I like your test plan A LOT, and think I will share it with the local EAA chapter as well. The next thing I think we need to work on as a group is to author a KR-2 flight transition training syllabus[sp?]. I have asked the flight advisor folks at EAA if they have the "equivilant" aircraft list worked up, but it seems to me that we probably have the experts here on KRNET. Can we get a general consensus about a practical flight transition training program? I know that there are some folks who want to get into their plane and fly it, but I'm thinking that if you spend 10 years and >$10,000 on your airplane, another $1000-2000 on some flight instruction is probably a good investment. Lets get creative and come up with some ideas. At a minimum, it seems that getting endorsed for a taildragger is a good idea. I have heard that you can get checked out in about 10 hours of dual time. I think thats about $800 right there considering rental and instruction. If you work at this while you are building, then you can spread the cost over a longer period, then just get a referesher at the end, and do some solo time, which is much cheaper. If you are looking for a cheap taildragger to rent, I found one in Nampa Id, with a pretty experienced instructor. However wait until Summer. For a bit more money, and nice weather, go to Chandler Air Service in Arizona. Good weather all year round, and you can get your Cub training and unusual attitude training at the same time. So far I have on my check list: 1) Check out in a Taildragger (Cub) Approx 10Hrs Dual $50/hr plane, $30/hr instructor == $800.00 2) Now that you are solo... what types of things would you practice? Dutch rolls. Slow Flight. Or do you do say 30 full stop landings. What is the best value for your solo $$$. My thoughts here are to get your taildragger endorsement in whatever is economical for you in your area. (Unless you have tri-gear). Then, it's time to move into transition mode. You have the rough taildragger background, now look for aircraft & dual instruction that are a closer match to the KR. If you can go up in a KR great... if not... what type of aircraft do people recommend? Jeff Scott suggested getting rear seat solo time in a taildragger like a Champ. This is great, but the Cub I flew in solos from the front. Any other rear seat taildraggers out there? I think the idea here is to fly anything with restricted forward visability during taxi, take-off and landing, to become comfortable with this situation. I would ask KR fliers for their input here! I'm a low time pilot so I can be the student test subject. -- Ross EagleGator wrote: > > In a message dated 98-01-12 18:05:02 EST, Ross wrote: > > << TAXI test the airplane for a while. Try to rattle all the nuts > and bolts loose. Then get a flashlight and go over the plane looking > to be sure you didn't. (General inspection) > > Do this again. (Several times?) > > Then do a high speed taxi test.... including some full power runups. > Get out the flashlight. >> > > This is an excellent point, and upon review of the taxi test section, I found > that I left out another extremely important part of this inspection. You need > to take a look for any gaps or cracks that may have developed in your fuselage > or firewall structure that could allow carbon monoxide to enter the cockpit. > This is best done with two people, one with his head down inside the airplane > and the other with a high intensity light directed at the outside of the > airplane. If the person inside the aiplane sees any light, there is work to > be done. > > I guess this means version 9 is in the works... Keep the comments and > suggestions coming! > > Cheers! > Rick Junkin > EagleGator@aol.com > St. Louis MO > EAA#374066 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:40:27 -0700 From: cartera@cuug.ab.ca Subject: Re: KR: let's just call it a preference MikeT nyc wrote: > > > Do you mean a person can get more speed out of the traditional RAF 48 just by > reducing the washout a bit? Has anybody tried this and how much would it be > reduced? Would I be correct in assuming that reducing the washout a degree or > so would not decrease the stall speed, but only the gentleness of the stall > when it comes? > > Mike Taglieri Take a look at my homepage and you will see the washout and angle of incidence that I used and the stall speed. It will answer all your guestions. - -- Adrian VE6AFY cartera@cuug.ab.ca http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~cartera ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 02:22:39, -0500 From: YCGB97A@prodigy.com (MR JEAN R VERON) Subject: KR: Construction update. Dana I had a rrevflow on my Sonerai II and loved it. I tried the Posa and Zenith but liked the Revflow best. When I bought the KR-2 I ordered a Revflow because i just didn't like the Posa. I never got it on because it required remaking the exhaust system. I planned to do that after the KR gathering but when i discovered the cracked block i decided to buy an O-200 instad of another VW. Jean N4DD Broken Arrow,OK ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:34:58 -0800 From: Ross Subject: Re: KR: Weight Check/ Boat's complete! John Bouyea wrote: > > The boat is done! Well, at least everything in chapter one is finished. > > It's at 42 pounds. How I'm doing guys? What weights did anyone else > record? John, This sounds about right. The plans have a figure noted someplace on them regarding the weight at this stage. I will try and dig this stuff up this weekend (building log) so we can compare notes. -- Ross ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:41:21 -0800 From: Ross Subject: Re: KR: Spar question I used 1/8" holes and placed them to miss the vertical members. You can use "Spar varnish" or anything you wish that will protect the wood, make sure not to varnish any part of the webbing that will be epoxied, and I left about a 1/4" area on the inside of the box near the glue area to insure that the varnish wouldn't seep near where I was going to epoxy later. -- Ross Bob Vermeulen wrote: > > I'm getting ready to glue up my spars and I want to make the holes for > ventilating and equalizing the airpressure that might develop in the sealed > areas of the spar. Where does everybody locate those holes? In the > verticals, and vent out the ends, or in the web, or what? Is an 1/8" hole > large enough or too large? What is typically used for preservation inside > the spars? A spar varnish, something like MinWax Polyurethane or what? Is > there anything that I should avoid. I'm also planning on having our > Chapter tech advisor inspect my spars before I close them entirely. > Anybody's help would be appreciated. > > Video Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:37:12 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Re:KR Flight Training program (was Test Plan) At 11:28 PM 1/13/98 -0800, you wrote: >My thoughts here are to get your taildragger endorsement in whatever >is economical for you in your area. (Unless you have tri-gear). > Well its just an opinion but I think everyone regardless of gear type should get their tailwheel endorsement! That way we could do away with the myth that they are hard to fly! Plus you learn something new about airplanes and how they react to certain conditions. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Oh My,.......Its 1998!! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:38:32 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Construction update. At 02:22 AM 1/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >Dana > I had a rrevflow on my Sonerai II and loved it. I tried the Posa and >Zenith but liked the Revflow best.>>> I wonder if the revflow would work on the Continental? Humm... :o) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Oh My,.......Its 1998!! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:51:41 -0800 From: Ross Subject: Re: KR: let's just call it a preference Mike, I think that messing with the washout will impact the aileron effectiveness. The idea is to have a higher angle of incidence at the root so that the root stalls first, then give the ailerons a chance to keep flying to keep you from the spin situation. It's fun to talk about making mods, but there were a couple of NTSB stall/spin incidents in KR's, enough to keep me from reducing the washout one bit with the RAF airfoil. I will accept flames here if I have mis-stated something obvious... as I have been known to do. - -- Ross MikeT nyc wrote: > > In a message dated 98-01-13 21:34:54 EST, you write: > > >One of my primary reasons for building a KR2 is SPEED. My time is very > >important to me, and the faster I can get somewhere, the happier I am. > > [snip] > > >And for me, there's a limit to "stall proofing" an airplane. If it takes 3 > >degrees of washout and a wing that mushes forever before stalling to > >tell you that you're in trouble, maybe you shouldn't be flying after all. It > >just depends on what's important to you. > > Do you mean a person can get more speed out of the traditional RAF 48 just by > reducing the washout a bit? Has anybody tried this and how much would it be > reduced? Would I be correct in assuming that reducing the washout a degree or > so would not decrease the stall speed, but only the gentleness of the stall > when it comes? > > Mike Taglieri ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:54:10 -0800 From: Ross Subject: Re: KR: Spar question MikeT nyc wrote: > > These holes also help water to run out that accumulates from condensation, so > I would put them at the bottom of the aft shear web, in the middle, which may > be what you mean. > > Mike Taglieri Uhh... My understanding is that these holes are to allow for equalizing pressure at altitude so that the shear webbing doesnt "pop" off the spar caps at altitude. I hadn't thought of the condensation angle, but even living in Oregon, I don't expect much water to come pooring out of my spars. -- Ross ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:55:50 -0800 From: Ross Subject: Re: KR: Re: Construction update. My manual doesn't show AL at the bottom engine mount either, as I recall. I used AN960 wood washers there. MikeT nyc wrote: > > >> My plans are 1980 plans and did not show the engine mount alum. support. > >What > >> size alum is everyone using, I'm guessing 6061 is the grade. > > > >RR sells you two 36" long pieces of 4" x 2.5" x 1/8" 6061-T6511 (call it > >T6). The bottom angle is supposed to be somehow miraculously expanded to > >fit the 100 degree angle between the bottom 3.5" x 5/8" firewall cross > >members, while the upper one connects the top cross member to the deeper of > >the two upper plywood shelves (the one about 3" below the longeron). Get > >some 4 x 4 and rip it down to 2.5" on a tablesaw (with a blade that you > >need an excuse to throw away). > > My manual (p. 16) shows the aluminum angle only on the top engine mount (and > drawing #1 doesn't show it on either), so where are you finding the one on the > bottom? Is this an addition for the KR2-S? > > Mike Taglieri ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 00:05:53 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: let's just call it a preference At 11:51 PM 1/13/98 -0800, you wrote: >Mike, > I think that messing with the washout will impact the >aileron effectiveness. The idea is to have a higher >angle of incidence at the root so that the root stalls >first, then give the ailerons a chance to keep flying to >keep you from the spin situation. Well I am not sure it will change the "effectiveness" of the ailerons, washout is usually a means of stall warning for the pilot. If the root starts to stall first (as it should in a normal plane with washout) the tips still fly and allow the pilot to recognize something is wrong before he loses his ailerons. Losing your ailerons is normal procedure in most airplanes when you do a full stall, remember the control surfaces stall alphabetically, ailerons , elevator, then rudder. A purely aerobatic ship will have no washout at all. You can change the incidence and still have 3 degrees of washout if you want. FYI The KR and Taylor Monoplanes were the only GA aircraft I could find with more then 2.5 degrees washout, I think the only reason the KR has this much is because the Monoplane did and that's the airplane we are ALL copying. Something to keep in mind, Ken didn't design the KR he designed the foam and dynel flying surfaces and installed them on a Taylor Monoplane. Gee I hope that doesnt start a firefight! :o) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Oh My,.......Its 1998!! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 00:15:55 -0500 From: george bell Subject: Re: KR: let's just call it a preference This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------B8F44474B9F4895B5C134EFA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good Post Mark!!! Mark Langford wrote: > KRFolks, > > While everyone's busy proving that we're wasting our time on the NLF, I'd > like to remind you all that there are a great many decisions regarding our > planes that are simply a matter of personal preference. Taildragger vs > tri-gear, wing tanks vs header tank, Subaru vs VW, and yes, RAF48 vs the > contenders. Each has it's place. > > Clip > The last thing I want to do is fuel the flames of another airfoil war or > similar on KRNet. Let's just leave it at a "personal preference", OK? > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL > email at langford@hiwaay.net > KR2S project construction at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford - --------------B8F44474B9F4895B5C134EFA Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for George P. Bell Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: George P. Bell n: Bell;George P. email;internet: gpbell@pacbell.net x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard - --------------B8F44474B9F4895B5C134EFA-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 06:22:05 -0500 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR: let's just call it a preference Mark Langford wrote: > While everyone's busy proving that we're wasting our time on the NLF, I'd > like to remind you all that there are a great many decisions regarding our > planes snip > similar on KRNet. Let's just leave it at a "personal preference", OK? I couldn't agree more. When I started my weekend project to compare numbers, my intention was to look at the selection from a dispassionate, unbiased viewpoint. I call myself unbiased since my airfoil selection (on the KR) is already made and built. The airfoil for the next project, and the ones after that, are not picked yet. As long as you accept the weaknesses of your particular airfoil, you can design to its strengths. As I said, the NLF will have a high pitch moment, a good maximum lift coefficient, and a decent drag coefficient. - -- Don Reid Bumpass, Va. mailto:donreid@erols.com http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 06:56:14 EST From: KR2 616TJ Subject: Re: KR: Sun-N-Fun KR Forum??? In a message dated 98-01-14 00:19:03 EST, you write: << Tampa I paid $115.00 per night for a 2 room suite. Very very nice place Restaurant was pricey, Pianist in the piano bar was a goddess. Located East of Tampa just off of I-4 about 35 min. from room to parked at fly in. >> I floated a message some time ago and got little response, but I'm still game to try and get as many people as possible to stay at the same plane. The place I stay at is the Budgetel at the Fairgrounds in Tampa, it's the same distance you speak of, maybe closer and is nice and only about $50+ althought it's not a suite and has no pianist, but a lot of people with airplanes stay there and they will give us group rates. Dana Overall Richmond, KY kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 07:51:33 -0500 From: Patrick Flowers Subject: Re: KR: let's just call it a preference Micheal Mims wrote: > > At 11:51 PM 1/13/98 -0800, you wrote: > >Mike, > > I think that messing with the washout will impact the > >aileron effectiveness. The idea is to have a higher > >angle of incidence at the root so that the root stalls > >first, then give the ailerons a chance to keep flying to > >keep you from the spin situation. > > Well I am not sure it will change the "effectiveness" of the ailerons, > washout is usually a means of stall warning for the pilot. If the > root starts to stall first (as it should in a normal plane with > washout) the tips still fly and allow the pilot to recognize > something is wrong before he loses his ailerons. I think this is precisely Mark's point. The Cherokees and Skyhawks do this so students and low time pilots will still have some aileron control when the nose drops. When you graduate to high performance aircraft, you're supposed to have learned by then not to try to raise a wing with aileron in a stall. Patrick - -- Patrick Flowers Mailto:patri63@ibm.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 07:56:20 -0500 From: Patrick Flowers Subject: Re: KR: Sun-N-Fun KR Forum??? KR2 616TJ wrote: > > I floated a message some time ago and got little response, but I'm still > game to try and get as many people as possible to stay at the same plane. > The place I stay at is the Budgetel at the Fairgrounds in Tampa, it's the > same distance you speak of, maybe closer and is nice and only about $50+ > althought it's not a suite and has no pianist, but a lot of people with > airplanes stay there and they will give us group rates. I'm also planning to stay at the Bugetel. Come on guys, start planning for Sun n Fun. Let's have a good contingent of KRNetters there. Patrick - -- Patrick Flowers Mailto:patri63@ibm.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:16:24 -0500 From: "Richard Parker" Subject: KR: Re: composite skins?? (long) - ---------- > From: Micheal Mims > To: krnet-l@teleport.com > Subject: KR: composite skins?? (long) > Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 7:07 PM > > Well here is my idea for foam and glass skins,... > > First you would need your fuselage built up without skins (see my fuselage > page). Grab a sheet of Last-A-Foam and hold it up against the side (or > bottom if you are making the bottom) of your fuselage................... ................................... Just what I was thinking! Whats the thickness on the Last-A Foam? Richard Parker ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:34:41 -0500 From: "Richard Parker" Subject: KR: Re: Dimple tape Rich > From: EagleGator > To: krnet-l@teleport.com > Subject: KR: Speed Mods > Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 8:20 PM > > There is a very interesting article in the January edition of Sport Aviation > on using "dimple tape" to improve airflow across everything from the prop to > the landing gear legs. Here's the meat of it: > > Dimple tape is applied span-wise to the maximum camber of the prop, wings, and > airfoils. The theory is that trailing edge separation and the trailing edge > wake characteristics are improved. The improvements cited in the article are > on the order of about a 5% increase in speed and a decrease of 50% in prop > noise. All this just by just applying dimples to the airfoils in the > appropriate place. Definitely something to look at in the wind tunnel tests. > > If you're interested, the author of the article is Anthony C. Occhipinti, 1353 > Lake Ave, Apt A, Metairie, LA. (504)831-1816. > > Cheers! > Rick Junkin > EagleGator@aol.com > St. Charles MO > http://members.aol.com/eaglegator There was also an article in the December 15 1997 edition of Design News (see www.designnews.com) on the same subject however the method they used was very small random chevron patterns. The quoted drag reductions were if I remember correctly 13% which is collossal in drag reduction terms. The best thing about it was that it was random! A small roller could be made out of soft metal and the texture could be rolled into a paint layer. Might look better than a flying golf ball. Rich Parker ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:58:07 -0800 From: bmsi@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: KR: Revflow feeding a Continental? Micheal Mims wrote: > > I wonder if the revflow would work on the Continental? Humm... :o) > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Micheal Mims > Oh My,.......Its 1998!! > > mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net > http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims A problem with that one is that the greater requirements of the Continental would cause the velocity of the air through the venturi to be greater than the designed intention of the Revflow. Kind of like pounding a railroad spike with a tack hammer. Speeding up the airflow through the venturi raises questions about fuel metering and carb iceing. Problem with the Ellisons on the larger Type IVs may be a clue. Don't blame me--Bernouli did it :-) Bruce S. Campbell KR2S #873 Tampa, Florida ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 07:04:56 -0700 From: Ron Lee Subject: Re: KR: Engine choices >>>My plane is likely to be pretty fast but that will mostly be due to brute >>>force! The Lyc O-290 has reared its ugly head again and continues to call >to me from the corner of the hanger while I am sanding filler! >Micheal Mims >Oh My,.......Its 1998!! > On a serious note, the O-290 is in the 140-150 HP range. Sounds great. But is the weight going to cause problems with cg....or will it actually HELP your cg range? Are you the one planning a tail area weight for that purpose? Also, I assume you are going to beef up the engine attach area and frame to support the added weight and POWER (grunt, grunt) of that engine. Would it be instructive to mention that mod as well (Probably already done) Ron Lee ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:07:05 -0600 From: robert k adams Subject: Re: KR: Sun-N-Fun KR Forum??? At 07:56 AM 1/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >KR2 616TJ wrote: >> >> I floated a message some time ago and got little response, but I'm still >> game to try and get as many people as possible to stay at the same plane. >> The place I stay at is the Budgetel at the Fairgrounds in Tampa, it's the >> same distance you speak of, maybe closer and is nice and only about $50+ >> althought it's not a suite and has no pianist, but a lot of people with >> airplanes stay there and they will give us group rates. > >I'm also planning to stay at the Bugetel. Come on guys, start planning >for Sun n Fun. Let's have a good contingent of KRNetters there. > >Patrick >-- >Patrick Flowers >Mailto:patri63@ibm.net > could you post the date's and other pertinent info on sun & fun for us guys that dont know. thanks bob adams west paducah, ky ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:46:23 -0500 From: Patrick Flowers Subject: Re: KR: Sun-N-Fun KR Forum??? robert k adams wrote: > > could you post the date's and other pertinent info on sun & fun for > us guys that dont know. April 19-25, 1988 at Lakeland Linder Regional Airport, Lakeland FL. Hotels in Lakeland are usually booked solid, especially for the opening weekend, but the airport is on the west side of town, so staying east of Tampa is the hot tip. I'm with Dana in voting for the Tampa Fairgrounds Budgetel as the "official" KRNet hotel. About 20min drive to the show. The web site is at http://www.sun-n-fun.com/ Patrick - -- Patrick Flowers Mailto:patri63@ibm.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:59:54 -0500 From: Patrick Flowers Subject: KR: Huntsville III - The Atlanta Road Trip It's time for my weekly whine(sorry Randy) for the erstwhile group of Atlanta KRNetters that will be braving the treacherous roads to Huntsville on January 24. Plenty of room left for anyone that wants to carpool(although with Mark's "beer math", we may be driving a delivery truck). Should be a great trip with entertainment provided by non-stop hangar flying and miscellaneous other lies and myths. Join the fun! Patrick - -- Patrick Flowers Tyrone, GA Mailto:patri63@ibm.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:03:09 EST From: LVav8r Subject: KR: Sun-N-Fun??? In a message dated 98-01-14 10:46:55 EST, you write: << I'm with Dana in voting for the Tampa Fairgrounds Budgetel as the "official" KRNet hotel. About 20min drive to the show. The web site is at http://www.sun-n-fun.com/ Patrick -- Patrick Flowers Mailto:patri63@ibm.net >> I'll probably be there for two or three days but I usually do the el- cheapo thing and camp out under the wing of a C-172. If anyone is going to be driving I would appreciate a ride to any little KRNet horse beatings or brew confrences! I might even spring for a round of barley pops! I hope this one get a few responses! Tom Kilgore Las Vegas, NV LVav8r@aol.com http://members.aol.com/LVav8r/index.html KR-2S 2% complete __I__ _______( X )_______ o/ \o ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:26:59 -0500 From: "Richard Parker" Subject: KR: Re: Cleveland wheels Do your homework. Cleveland Wheels and brakes are $100 cheaper in AS+S than Wicks. (I get them much cheaper than even their cost though) Richard Parker ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:57:44 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Re: composite skins?? (long) At 08:16 AM 1/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >Just what I was thinking! >Whats the thickness on the Last-A Foam? > >Richard Parker > Richard, the thinnest I have found it 1/4 inch, which is just right really. Check AS&S or WICKS. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Oh My,.......Its 1998!! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:06:55 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Revflow feeding a Continental? At 08:58 AM 1/14/98 -0800, you wrote: >Speeding up the airflow through the venturi raises questions about fuel >metering and carb iceing. Problem with the Ellisons on the larger Type >IVs may be a clue. > Not supposed to be no ice on them thar flat slide carbs but you never know! I was looking at my Revflow and noticed there is enough meat on the bore to maybe bore it ou a bit. Used to do that in my ole racen days. Also Edelbrock sells the same carb with a larger bore. Just looking at possible alternative carbs to the Marvelous Shriveler! :o) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Oh My,.......Its 1998!! mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:29:23 -0600 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR: let's just call it a preference Rossy wrote: > I think that messing with the washout will impact the > aileron effectiveness. The idea is to have a higher > angle of incidence at the root so that the root stalls > first, then give the ailerons a chance to keep flying to > keep you from the spin situation. Ross, That's one reason I'm moving my ailerons outboard, reducing length to 40", and extending them to the spar, in an effort to effectively move them to the tips (kinda like the vast majority of other planes). I can't say for sure, but I'd imagine that the short retractable gear of the original had something to do with the short-chord ailerons and flaps that are detailed in the plans. Your point is well taken though. Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL email at langford@hiwaay.net KR2S project construction at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ End of krnet-l-digest V2 #13 ****************************