From: owner-krnet-l-digest@teleport.com[SMTP:owner-krnet-l-digest@teleport.com] Sent: Thursday, February 26, 1998 6:31 PM To: krnet-l-digest@teleport.com Subject: krnet-l-digest V2 #47 krnet-l-digest Thursday, February 26 1998 Volume 02 : Number 047 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:19:37 EST From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Re: Valve keepers. In a message dated 98-02-25 03:37:57 EST, you write: << I'll go with single HD springs on my KR engine, and I'll definitely use Manley stainless steel valves. I tried the cheap imitations, and lived long enough (a few months) to regret it. Mine look like they'll last forever, but then my valve geometry is set up perfectly, and I'm using elephant phoot adjusters. If you don't know what I mean by valve geometry, you need HP Book's "How to Hotrod VW Engines", which I bought in "71. Knowing you, you've got it already... >> Same here with the springs and valves. The 2180 upgrade will be ready for the heads by this weekend but I'm not going to do anything before I get the new keepers, thanks for your's and Marvin's reply. Yep....I've got the book, but bought it in 79. Flying in Wales, what a life. Dana Overall Richmond, KY kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 05:20:56 PST From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: KR: Flying in Wales- no archive > >Flying in Wales, what a life. > OK, Covington- where are your "save the Wales" puns now? Oscar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 12:50:48 GMT From: mathewrz@iafrica.com (Rob Matthews) Subject: Re: KR: Speed Brake or Belly Board location On 23/2/98 3:46PM, in message <19980223134613.10693.qmail@hotmail.com>, "Oscar Zuniga" wrote: Hi Oscar Do you have a scanner that you might be able to scan this in and email it to us. it sounds quite interesting and maybe we could benefit from it. Many Thanks Rob Matthews Hot and Sunny Skies (South Africa) > Mike wrote: > > >Seems to me one mounted to the front spar would provide more of a > braking > >action and one mounted to the aft spar make act more like a flap. I am > >going with one on the aft spar with the same area as two stock KR (as > plans) > >flaps. It will be about 10" X 36". > > Just a teaser here; one of the old Newsletters has description and > detail drawings on making a speed brake which mounts to the main spar. > It's 30"x6", and uses an interesting hydraulic cylinder setup which lets > you position the operating handle anywhere you want. The designer > indicates that he was thinking of speed reduction, not flap effect. > > Oscar Zuniga > Medford, Oregon > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > - -- Rob Matthews Have a nice day South Africa email mathewrz@iafrica.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:31:41 EST From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Sun and Fun Plans In a message dated 98-02-25 02:38:57 EST, you write: << I'm curious about the S&F plans.. I live close enough tho drive to the Fun, but would spend a night in Tampa if there is a plan for a dinner or get- together on a specific day. We could probably borrow a meeting room from the motel if we were potential dinner guests. Any Ideas? Ron Freiberger KR2s+/- in Fort Myers, FL >> I know, you're getting tired of it but here we go again. KR Group rates for Sun & Fun at the Tampa Fairgrounds Budgetel #813 626-0885, $59.95 per night (great rate). About a 20 min. drive from Lakeland right on the exit. For those who have never been to Sun & Fun, it's the spring version of Oshkosh but the general feeling is that it is much more pilot friendly and is more about experimental flying, and the weather is great. Daily airshows with constant fly-bys of everything imaginable. If you go the first weekend go the the fly market, I bought a handheld two years ago for $35.00 that still works great, I've got another one but couldn't pass it up. With your EAA membership card, you have automatic access to roam the flight line. Great vacation. Ron, I'm game for trying to put something together. Maybe we could put a invite, for those not on the net, at the RR table in whatever blue building she'll be in this year. Dana Overall Richmond, KY kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:50:34 +0100 From: Michele Bucceri Subject: Re: KR: KR-2S Side framing layout. Drawing A Ooops, please in my last mail change "bargain" with "trash" ... Stupid man ... Ciao, Michele ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:10:26 -0600 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: KR: Re: Nashville Nate Smyre wrote: > Hello all, I'm looking for any current builders or owners of KR's that > are in Nashville, TN or any surrounding vicinities. I would like to > come see one in person, if I can. thanks for your help. Nate, I'm about 2 hours away in Huntsville, AL (after Saturday) and am building a KR2-S. Jim Hill also has a KR2.5S which may be flying by Sun n Fun in Huntsville. You're welcome to visit anytime after this weekend. Hey, we could call it Huntsville 4... Mark Langford langford@hiwaay.net kr2s project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:51:03 PST From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: KR: Speed Brake or Belly Board location >Hi Oscar >Do you have a scanner that you might be able to scan this in and email it to >us. it sounds quite interesting and maybe we could benefit from it. >Many Thanks >Rob Matthews Yep. It's on its way to you at your e-mail address; 190KB file size. Anybody else want it, let me know off-net. Oscar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:23:52 EST From: BSHADR@aol.com Subject: KR: KR-Side stick vote In a message dated 98-02-24 22:21:14 EST, you write: << I also flew back seat in an -EZE and was really impressed with the feel. Search around for a ride in something with a side stick- you'll love it. >> KRNetters: Yep, same comments from me. I fly back seat in an EZ a fair amount of time (good to have a buddy who likes my bad jokes) and the side stick with arm rest is the ticket. Randy Stein BSHADR@aol.com Soviet Monica, CA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:23:50 EST From: BSHADR@aol.com Subject: KR: KR-Side stick In a message dated 98-02-24 19:33:39 EST, you write: << I'd like to be able to use the side stick in my KR also. Don Betchan's is the only one I've ever seen. It's really slick. I happen to know that Randy Stein (aka Frick) shot a roll of film on that control at the 96 Gathering. Don peeled the side cover off and I thought that Randy got photos and dimensions. How about it Randy? Or was it only the landing gear. I thought it might show up in a future KROnline. How about in the copies of the historical newsletters? Did anybody ever make any sketches? >> Dale & Bob: Sorry, the photos did not come out good enough to see anything. It was a pretty simple set up though, as I recall. I think this year at KRKosh I'll get him to strip it apart again and we'll get some lights to give us some good video and stills. The insides ended up pretty dark when we were all hanging over the cockpit blocking the light as we tried to shoot it. Randy (AKA Frickoid) Stein BSHADR@aol.com Soviet Monica, CA PS - I do have some hand sketches of the retract system that Don sent me and of a few sketch notes of my own. They are scanned and in a zip file. If anyone wants a copy via Email file attached, Email me off net using the subject line "Retract gear ZIP" and I'll send it out to you. It is better we don't respond on KENet, we don't need the extra noise. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:18:00 EST From: BSHADR@aol.com Subject: KR: VWNet (VW List) sign up info KRNetheads: As Mark LangfordKosh would say, I'll bite on this (again). To sign up for the VW List: This mailing list is for the discussion of auto and motorcycle engine conversions for experimentals and ultralights. To subscribe send the text: subscribe vw to listserver@toast.ml.org . To unsubscribe send the text: unsubscribe vw to listserver@toast.ml.org Randy Stein BSHADR@aol.com Soviet Monica, CA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:08:52 PST From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: KR: KR-Side stick/history Video Bob wrote: How about in the >copies of the historical newsletters? Did anybody ever make any sketches? Hoo, boy- I remember seeing several nifty drawings of dual sticks, several ideas using push/pull tubes instead of cables, and the throw-over yoke setup, but not specifically a side-stick arrangement, in the old newsletters. But I'll bet there is! I will keep an eye open as I scan, or somebody with a TRL hard-copy can whip through and see what's there. Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:25:56, -0500 From: YCGB97A@prodigy.com (MR JEAN R VERON) Subject: Re: KR: engine mount Yes , Dan said that it is the one Rand-Robinson sold for Revmasters. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:28:05, -0500 From: YCGB97A@prodigy.com (MR JEAN R VERON) Subject: Re: KR: engine mount Marty, it would be about as easy as putting Twiggies bra on Dolly Parton. Jean N$DD ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:20:45 EST From: Horn2004@aol.com Subject: KR: Re: WAFs Regarding Wing Attach Fittings... I noticed in an early newsletter a guy had designed a simple jig to drill all the same size fittings at the same time for perfect alignment. He built a small wooden box the exact dimension of the fitting. The box was about 2" deep. He then cut all his 4130 strap to correct length and stacked it up in the box. On the top piece he marked all his holes. He took the whole set-up to the drill press and then drilled all the holes according to the top strap he had marked. I figure if you bought a new drill bit for each hole you would still come out ahead. $25 per fitting is outrageous! I bet a good machine shop could even take a CAD file of a fitting (Mark Langford??) and download the file to a good CNC machine and zip all these out in no time, at a reasonable cost. Especially if they had orders for more than one set. Just think...10 sets = $5000.00. Is that crazy or what? Steve Horn Dallas, TX Horn2004@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 01:04:43 +0000 From: Antonio Pereira Subject: Re: KR: KR-Side stick Just a small comment on the side stick issue: I think the side stick is a pretty good idea. It feels natural and you fit right in with throttle in one hand and the stick in the other, but a few thoughts come to mind. Are you right or left handed? you will need to change frequencies, to write down your clearances, nav log changes, use your computer; will you be able to do it without letting go of the stick? maybe it is OK in smooth air, but with a little turbulence, will you be able to do it safely and easily? assume you are right handed, flying the mountains on a windy day, Center looses radar contact and requests ETO for the next way points. Lets see...you let go the throttle of your left hand reach across your lap to the right to hold the stick, while with you right hand you pull out your computer, do all your calculations, write the times on the knee board strapped to your right leg. Can you do it under your left arm, or you have to write over it reaching down for your knee board? Do you have a clock on your panel? do you ware your wristwatch on the left wrist? too bad... you're going to have to twist your arm to check the ETO's, and while you are flying the plane. You better call Flight Safety to rig a simulator so you can practice before you get in this jam, or else, make sure you always carry a co-pilot. I think side sticks are a pretty neat idea, but they do away with your ability to fly with either hand, and they override the poor man's auto pilot: your knees. Think about it for a while, maybe you're better off with a center stick. Happy building Antonio BSHADR@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-02-24 19:33:39 EST, you write: > > << I'd like to be able to use the side stick in my KR also. Don Betchan's is > the only one I've ever seen. It's really slick. I happen to know that > Randy Stein (aka Frick) shot a roll of film on that control at the 96 > Gathering. Don peeled the side cover off and I thought that Randy got > photos and dimensions. How about it Randy? Or was it only the landing > gear. I thought it might show up in a future KROnline. How about in the > copies of the historical newsletters? Did anybody ever make any sketches? >> > > Dale & Bob: > > Sorry, the photos did not come out good enough to see anything. It was a > pretty simple set up though, as I recall. I think this year at KRKosh I'll > get him to strip it apart again and we'll get some lights to give us some good > video and stills. The insides ended up pretty dark when we were all hanging > over the cockpit blocking the light as we tried to shoot it. > > Randy (AKA Frickoid) Stein > BSHADR@aol.com > Soviet Monica, CA > > PS - I do have some hand sketches of the retract system that Don sent me and > of a few sketch notes of my own. They are scanned and in a zip file. If > anyone wants a copy via Email file attached, Email me off net using the > subject line "Retract gear ZIP" and I'll send it out to you. It is better we > don't respond on KENet, we don't need the extra noise. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:25:53 -0800 From: MARVIN MCCOY Subject: KR: Traveling treasure I just sent the originals of the Erny Koppe newsletters to Brian Whatcott. If anyone wants a copy contact him direct and he will send them on to you. Brian's e-mail is inet@intellisys.net These news letters were done at a time when there were two thousand subscribers to the newsletter. So there was plenty of input from a lot of people. A lot of good ideas. Marvin McCoy Seattle, WA. North end of Boeing field mr.marvin@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:39:32 -0800 From: MARVIN MCCOY Subject: Re: KR: Re: Valve keepers. Mark Langford wrote: > > Dana Overall wrote: > > > Question for Marvin McCoy. When the guy redid your VW heads you said he > > changed your lifter keepers from MOFOCO to something else that were > better > > keepers. If you know, or could find out without much trouble, could you > let > > me know what company it was or where I can buy them. I don't know the > brand > > of these keepers, but don't want to drop a valve. > > Dana, > > >-------------------------------- Dana and all interested: Finally getting back to you regarding the valve spring retainers that Jerry at North West Con Rod replaced for me. As you know I purchased new heads for a type IV from MOFOCO. They are AMC heads made in Spain. Jerry at NW Con Rod has a large number of heads from AMC that have split their retainers. He recomends that anyone who has bought an AMC head with in the last 12 to 15 months should replace the retainers with standard VW retainers. the heads are easily recognized, they have large letters AMC stamped on them. Jerry said he uses standard Volkswagen retainers to replace them with. The ones that came with the AMC heads are aftermarket and he does not know who made them. Marvin McCoy Seattle, WA. North end of Boeing field mr.marvin@worldnet.att.net - --------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:39:02 -0600 From: brian whatcott Subject: Re: KR: Traveling treasure At 17:25 2/25/98 -0800, you wrote: >I just sent the originals of the Erny Koppe newsletters to Brian >Whatcott. If anyone wants a copy contact him direct and he will send >them on to you. Brian's e-mail is inet@intellisys.net ... >Marvin McCoy Thanks Marvin. Brian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:29:38 -0600 (CST) From: Steven A Eberhart Subject: Re: KR: Traveling treasure Any one in the midwest or east coast can send me their address as I have the east coast originals and will send them out to who ever wants them next. Thanks Dana, Steve Eberhart newtech@newtech.com http://www.newtech.com/nlf (recently updated with status of the NLF project) On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, brian whatcott wrote: > At 17:25 2/25/98 -0800, you wrote: > >I just sent the originals of the Erny Koppe newsletters to Brian > >Whatcott. If anyone wants a copy contact him direct and he will send > >them on to you. Brian's e-mail is inet@intellisys.net > ... > >Marvin McCoy > > Thanks Marvin. > Brian > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 01:03:27 EST From: MikeTnyc@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Re: Valve keepers. >I'll go with single HD springs on my KR engine, and I'll definitely use >Manley stainless steel valves. I tried the cheap imitations, and lived >long enough (a few months) to regret it. Mine look like they'll last >forever, but then my valve geometry is set up perfectly, and I'm using >elephant phoot adjusters. Harley-Davidson makes springs for VW's, or is this someone else? I looked into mushroom-type swiveling adjusters once (for a motorcycle), but I heard that they have sometimes fragged in use without warning, obviously with catastrophic results. Is that what these adjusters are, and is this brand particularly well made? Mike Taglieri ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:05:58 -0800 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Re: KR: KR-2S Side framing layout. Drawing A Michele, I believe Mr Langford has done the development and solved the bananna boat syndrome for the KR if you are interested send him an email. -- Ross Michele Bucceri wrote: > Richard Parker wrote: > > > > On "Side framing layout". Drawing A, I am wondering what the height > > at the rear of the side layout is. (ref N and ref O) > > > > Its given at the firewall ( 16.25' ref A) > > the rear of the main spar (20.00 ref E) > > (20.25 ref F), > > the rear of the rear spar (20.00 ref h) > > (19.00 ref I) > > then nothing all the way back. Am I missing something? > > Any help would be appreciated. > > > > Rich Parker > > Jaffrey, NH > > theparkers@monad.net > > > > Just some considerations about KR2S framing layout. I like to say that > I've not already started build my framing, so what I'm telling are only > my tought and what I'm planning to do. Sorry if for some people all I'm > gonna writing is trivial, obvius, or bargain. > > SSSSSooo, the drawings RR furnish are plan view of a 3d object (your > airplane), and not the plan framing layout; because of that: > > 1) The verticals shown are not vertical: try to "virtually seat" in the > engine place, and look at the tail. True lenght of each vertical is > bigger than dimension showed on plans. For outstanding engineer > happiness: > TrueLength = DrawingLenght / cos (VerticalAngle) > > 2) If you space verticals as per plans, and then bow the fuselage sides, > you'll surpringsly discover that your loved bird become shorter of more > than 7" (20 cm). > > Building frame as per plans result in a shorter and banana boat affected > fuselage. Of course this is not a disaster, but may be you don't like > it, and I don't. > > How to correct this ? "Simply" make a geometric develop, maybe helping > with a CAD program, of the fuselage. You'll discover that is > geometrically impossible to develop this fuselage, it's kinda flattening > a sphere. But as parachute are made from flat stuff, our fuses can be > made (flying KR are the evidence !!!): a sorta of structural deformation > (other than pure bending of longitudinal axis) is involved. > > I've done that flattening work, and I realize that when I'll build my > plan framing, my vertical won't be vertical, but the top of them will be > slightly moved forward, the top and bottom longherons will be slightly > bowed and, most important, the framing will be longer than showed by > plans. > > Now my doubt: skin plan sides and then bend them, or bend the frame and > then skin? There are good reasons to make the first as the second. I > think that it's only a matter of personal preference. The only thing I'm > evaluating is to run a finite element analysis to check the stress that > the bending process involve. If it's not so big (and I think so ... many > builder use this technique and are still alive) I think I'll bend > skinned sides, maybe after steaming them. > > Of course, take all I've said as bargain: I'm gonna building a mockup to > check it. > > Whew ... hope my bad english was understandable, and now ... ready to > get all of your insult !! > > Ciao, > Michele (the theoretical guy ... ) > -- > MBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMB > Michele Bucceri > E-mail: mailto:michele.bucceri@italtel.it > MBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMBMB ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 01:04:54 EST From: XZOSTD1@aol.com Subject: Re: KR: Re: WAFs When I made my attach fittings L clamped 4 at a time in my drill press vice. After the first hole was drilled I bolted the stack together. The stacks stayed bolted together while all forming and grinding were done. All the holes were drilled in 3 steps. They drill very much like stainless. Use low speed, steady pressure, and lubrication. Wear goggles over the safety glasses you alredy had on(the stuff really throws wicked chips. Bill Huntley KR2S Green Bay, WI. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:58:28 EST From: leperkins@juno.com (Lloyd Perkins,Jr.) Subject: Re: KR: Traveling treasure Steve, Please send them to me: Lloyd Perkins 813 Lincoln Drive Fredericksburg, Va. 22407 Thanks, Lloyd On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:29:38 -0600 (CST) Steven A Eberhart writes: > >Any one in the midwest or east coast can send me their address as I >have >the east coast originals and will send them out to who ever wants them >next. > >Thanks Dana, > >Steve Eberhart >newtech@newtech.com >http://www.newtech.com/nlf (recently updated with status of the NLF >project) > >On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, brian whatcott wrote: > >> At 17:25 2/25/98 -0800, you wrote: >> >I just sent the originals of the Erny Koppe newsletters to Brian >> >Whatcott. If anyone wants a copy contact him direct and he will >send >> >them on to you. Brian's e-mail is inet@intellisys.net >> ... >> >Marvin McCoy >> >> Thanks Marvin. >> Brian >> >> > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:20:50 -0800 From: Ross Youngblood Subject: KR: Thanks Thanks for reminding me there is no deadline and I'm sure to have a lot of fun when I'm done! I get to spend 4 hours a week in an MD-80 and I get a lot of time to think about flying my KR down below on the trip. I really like the side stick idea. It's on the retrofit list for 2002, probably will go in with the fixed gear option. - -- Ross ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:51:50 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: Re: WAFs At 01:04 AM 2/26/98 EST, you wrote: >When I made my attach fittings L clamped 4 at a time in my drill press vice. They drill very much like stainless. Use low speed, >steady pressure, and lubrication>>> What did you use to drill the large holes? A uni-bit? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Building outer wings now mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims Fax 714.856.9417 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 01:59:26, -0500 From: YCGB97A@prodigy.com (MR JEAN R VERON) Subject: Re: KR: Re: WAFs Try drilling them about .010 undersize and reaming them to size. This works well 4 at a time bolted together like bill said. Jean N4DD ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:15:11 -0600 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: KR: rocker shafts VWRockerShaftHeads, I forgot to mention during my recent valve keeper diatribe that I think the biggest weakness in the Type 1 VW valve train is the rocker shafts. By all means, replace the silly "wavy washer" springs with the solid shims that VW performance folks sell. Way too many times I've seen the wavy washers break, allowing the clips to fall off, or seen the clips themselves break and fall off, allowing the rockers to slide sideways and booger up the retainers (and cease valve operation). Get the upgrade kit that replaces the wavy washers and clips with shims and bolts, and this can never happen to you.... Mark Langford langford@hiwaay.net kr2s project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 18:52:41 -0600 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR: KR-2S Side framing layout. Drawing A Michele, Steam it, by all means, before bending the trusses into the boat shape, and take your time. Mark Langford langford@hiwaay.net kr2s project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford h ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 04:59:59 PST From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: KR: KR side stick- my vote To be taken with the usual grain of salt and IMHO... This from a taildragger pilot: give me the stick where it belongs- between the knees. Not only is it a good 'autopilot', but try to start up your bird in the morning without that handy feature. You have to hold the stick back so the tail won't come up when you light the fire, but one hand is on the throttle and the other is usually working mixture or starter or something else. I know there aren't many using injected engines, but on some (like Citabria), if you have to hit the fuel boost while running the throttle back and forth, while cranking the starter, and still hold the stick back... well, you just don't have another hand to keep the stick back. There are things that are ingrained after a while, like throttle in left hand and stick in right. I'm sure that's how a lot of pilots get in trouble in unfamiliar acft, cuz sometimes you instinctively reach for things when things hit the fan, and sometimes the thing you grab ain't what you really wanted to grab. Forget trying to fly IFR- it's just downright handy to have that stick right between your knees. In my opinion. Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 14:13:42 GMT From: mathewrz@iafrica.com (Rob Matthews) Subject: KR: KR 2 Speed Brake Hi Oscar Many Thanks for the speed brake picture. It is very interesting to see what others have done in the past. I tell you what it is great to have email etc. I like what i see but there must be a better way of doing the handbrake and cylinder part, so as not to take up too much space and having to cut a large hole in the underside of the fuselage. I think i will sit down and work something out. This has given me the basic idea and measurements and attachements for the speed brake itself. Many Thanks Once Again. - -- Rob Matthews Have a nice day South Africa email mathewrz@iafrica.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:44:45 -0500 From: msharkey@softarc.com (Mike Sharkey) Subject: Re(2): KR: KR-2S Side framing layout. Drawing A krnet-l@teleport.com writes: >Michele, > I believe Mr Langford has done the development and solved the bananna boat > >syndrome for the KR if you are interested send him an email. > -- Ross > You can find mr Langford's useful info at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford/kronline9.html Mike Sharkey X11 Development SoftArc Inc. http://www.softarc.com/~msharkey (%0 waiting for spruce) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 06:14:15 PST From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: KR: WAFs >Okay, Netters Now I get in real trouble. Here is my opinion on fabricating the WAFs, from somebody who has never done it. There is a structural engineer here in our office who also happens to be a builder. He almost completed a T-18; knows John Thorp and Dick VanGrunsven and the Sorrells and all those guys, personally. I respect his structural and aviation knowledge greatly. Anyway, the question had to do with making the 'big' holes in the main spar WAFs. My own take was that they are there strictly for reducing the weight, and that has been borne out by my structural engineer buddy. Same goes for the rounded corners on them: they make the fittings lighter and keep you from cutting your hands or barking your shins on sharp corners. Now I did some figuring on the weight savings provided by the 'big' holes in the WAFs. There are 16 fittings, and the amount of metal removed by making the 'big' holes is 0.155 cu. in. per fitting, and so that's a total of 2.5 cu. in. of 4130, which weighs 0.2833 lb. per cu. in. That adds up to a total weight savings of 0.71 lb., or a little over 11 ounces. For comparison, the KR-2S supplement package received from Rand Robinson weighs 13 ounces. A cold can of Pepsi weighs about 14 ounces. We are talking about a very small amount of weight savings in making the 'big' holes in the WAFs, plus the fact that they do nothing structurally. If you want to make your own WAFs, the templates are in the manual and you don't need to make the 'big' holes or round the edges. The price for the prefabbed fittings (all 32 of them) from R-R is less than $8 per fitting (unless it goes up). If you can make them for less than that, why not? Oh, one other idea I had (which may not work) is to use a Greenlee (tm) punch to make the big holes. This is the tool electricians use to make knockouts in electrical panels, and is hydraulically operated. You drill a pilot hole, put in the mandrel, pump it up, and it knocks out a coupon. Only problem is I don't know if it could handle metal this heavy, plus it leaves a fairly raw edge. Still cheaper, though. So fire up your flame throwers and blaze away at me; the line forms to the right of Mike Mims here... Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:24:14 -0500 From: Patrick Flowers Subject: Re: KR: WAFs Oscar Zuniga wrote: > > Now I get in real trouble. Here is my opinion on fabricating the > WAFs, from somebody who has never done it. My thoughts on cutting the large holes were to use a bimetallic hole saw in a drill press with slow speed and lots of lubrication. > So fire up your flame throwers and blaze away at me; the line forms to > the right of Mike Mims here... Got my nomex longjohns on too! Patrick - -- Patrick Flowers Mailto:patri63@ibm.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:29:38 -0800 From: Micheal Mims Subject: Re: KR: WAFs At 06:14 AM 2/26/98 PST, you wrote: >So fire up your flame throwers and blaze away at me; the line forms to >the right of Mike Mims here... > >Oscar Zuniga OK dude here goes,...(of course I will let my wing man Don Reid finish the kill) Did you happen to share with your engineer friend that the fittings are to be bolted to another material other than steel,...say like wood? The way I understand it is the 4130 and the spruce spar cap obviously expand and contract at different rates. Now what happens when you apply 8000 pounds of force to the WAF that doesn't have any holes (to reduce it strength actually)? The first two bolts in the order receive 8000 pounds, well that's OK because they are only gona absorb part of the load and pass the rest on down the line. So they do and the spar cap stretchs a bit (or compresses depending on which one) but the non-holy (just kidding) WAF does not or if it does its expansion of contraction does not match or even come close to that of the cap, so the first two bolts accepted the load,.. but the spar cap expanded and unloaded it, now all of a sudden the next bolts inline get the full 8000 pounds until they transfer it to the cap which again will expand more than the WAF and unload, now the next bolts get the entire 8000 pounds and so on, make any sense? If you design the WAF to stretch or contract a little it will distribute the load better to the spar cap. I saw the fax you sent me this morning and noticed the WAFs for the Taylor aircraft are tapered, that's another way of designing them to do their job. Mike "Peeling off to the right after 3 short burst from the 20mm cannon" Mims ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Micheal Mims Building outer wings now mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims Fax 714.856.9417 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:55:58 -0600 From: brian whatcott Subject: Re: KR: WAFs At 08:29 2/26/98 -0800, you wrote: >... If you design the WAF to >stretch or contract a little it will distribute the load better to the spar >cap. I saw the fax you sent me this morning and noticed the WAFs for the >Taylor aircraft are tapered, that's another way of designing them to do >their job. > >Mike "Peeling off to the right after 3 short burst from the 20mm cannon" Mims > Roger, WAF Stress Leader - saw the bogie take a direct one in the wing. Whatcott ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:50:07 -0500 From: "Richard Parker" Subject: KR: Re: WAFs Excellent point Oscar Richard Parker > Now I did some figuring on the weight savings provided by the 'big' > holes in the WAFs. There are 16 fittings, and the amount of metal > removed by making the 'big' holes is 0.155 cu. in. per fitting, and so > that's a total of 2.5 cu. in. of 4130, which weighs 0.2833 lb. per cu. > in. That adds up to a total weight savings of 0.71 lb., or a little > over 11 ounces. For comparison, the KR-2S supplement package received > from Rand Robinson weighs 13 ounces. A cold can of Pepsi weighs about > 14 ounces. We are talking about a very small amount of weight savings > in making the 'big' holes in the WAFs, plus the fact that they do > nothing structurally. > > Oscar Zuniga > Medford, Oregon > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:47:48 EST From: XZOSTD1@aol.com Subject: KR: Drill + Die Grind WAF I drilled the big holes and finished with a die grinder. A 5/8 bit and a little grinding got me a little smaller than 7/8 on the biggest hole. One additional thing I have done is to paint all my metal components a very bright yellow. This makes inspecting hard to reach components much easier. Cracks will be easier to detect. Bill Huntley KR2S Green Bay, WI. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:51:55 -0500 From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR: WAFs Oscar Zuniga wrote: > > >Okay, Netters > > Now I get in real trouble. > Anyway, the question had > to do with making the 'big' holes in the main spar WAFs. ...snip on weight considerations... Mike paraphrased some of my own thoughts on the structural aspects of the fittings (and did a fine job). When you look at structural fittings that involve metal bolted to wood in certificated airplanes, they all seem to have a "taper" in strength in some way. When the components are of the same material, the elasticity is the same, so the load transfer analysis is simplified. One of my favorite references is ANC-18, Design of Wood Aircraft Structures. It say, "When a long row of bolts is used to join two parts of a structure, consideration should be given to the relative deformation of the parts." For fittings of the type we are talking about, it further goes on to say "This may be approximated in practical structures by tapering the straps and the wood in such a manner that the average stress in each (over the length of the fastening) divided by its modulus of elasticity gives the same ratio." All of the examples that they show for strucural fittings are tapered in cross-sectional area. Oscar, I think your strucural engineer was thinking about aluminum-to-aluminum fastenings. No flame required - -- Don Reid Bumpass, Va. mailto:donreid@erols.com KR2XL at http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Ultralights at http://www.erols.com/donreid/usua250.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:14:02 -0500 From: smithr Subject: Re: KR: Re: WAFs Did you have any trouble drilling the 3 big holes? Do you have to use a special kind of drill bit or will any bit work? Bob Smith KR2s XZOSTD1@aol.com wrote: > When I made my attach fittings L clamped 4 at a time in my drill press vice. > After the first hole was drilled I bolted the stack together. The stacks > stayed bolted together while all forming and grinding were done. All the holes > were drilled in 3 steps. They drill very much like stainless. Use low speed, > steady pressure, and lubrication. Wear goggles over the safety glasses you > alredy had on(the stuff really throws wicked chips. > > Bill Huntley > KR2S > Green Bay, WI. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:38:32 EST From: XZOSTD1 Subject: Re: KR: Re: WAFs Dear Mr Smith I used std. bits from Wickes for the bolt holes . The other larger bits were advertised as cobalt bits(gold colored with a shallower tip angle) I bought 6 #12 bits at the start of my project and now need to reorder (all the metal parts are done except the control stick) When I drilled the big holes I drilled the pilot hole and then progressed to the largest bit without moving the WAF . The large holes were done after all #12 holes were drilled and bolted. Have Fun Bill Huntley KR2S ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:48:33 -0800 From: "Tim Anderson" Subject: Re: KR: WAFs Ya Know, When I was in the Air Force, a WAF meant something else entirely! Regarding your stress analysis, how much of the load is transferred to the spar through the bolts, and how much is transferred through the "clamping" of the entire surface area of the WAF to the spar? Wouldn't this tend to distribute the load more evenly to the spars? Tim Anderson Stockton, CA tanderso@inreach.com - -----Original Message----- From: Micheal Mims To: krnet-l@teleport.com Date: Thursday, February 26, 1998 8:32 AM Subject: Re: KR: WAFs >Did you happen to share with your engineer friend that the fittings are to >be bolted to another material other than steel,...say like wood? The way I >understand it is the 4130 and the spruce spar cap obviously expand and >contract at different rates. Now what happens when you apply 8000 pounds of >force to the WAF that doesn't have any holes (to reduce it strength >actually)? The first two bolts in the order receive 8000 pounds, well >that's OK because they are only gona absorb part of the load and pass the >rest on down the line. So they do and the spar cap stretchs a bit (or >compresses depending on which one) but the non-holy (just kidding) WAF does >not or if it does its expansion of contraction does not match or even come >close to that of the cap, so the first two bolts accepted the load,.. but >the spar cap expanded and unloaded it, now all of a sudden the next bolts >inline get the full 8000 pounds until they transfer it to the cap which >again will expand more than the WAF and unload, now the next bolts get the >entire 8000 pounds and so on, make any sense? If you design the WAF to >stretch or contract a little it will distribute the load better to the spar >cap. I saw the fax you sent me this morning and noticed the WAFs for the >Taylor aircraft are tapered, that's another way of designing them to do >their job. > >Mike "Peeling off to the right after 3 short burst from the 20mm cannon" Mims >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Micheal Mims >Building outer wings now > >mailto:mikemims@pacbell.net >http://home.pacbell.net/mikemims >Fax 714.856.9417 > > ------------------------------ End of krnet-l-digest V2 #47 ****************************