From: KR-net users group digest[SMTP:kr-net@telelists.com] Sent: Saturday, February 13, 1999 12:15 AM To: kr-net digest recipients Subject: kr-net digest: February 12, 1999 KR-net users group Digest for Friday, February 12, 1999. 1. Re: Measuring Wing Incidence 2. Re: How do you handle the bumps / Glassing the wing ? 3. wing construction ideas 4. Re: How do you handle the bumps / Glassing the wing ? 5. Re: How do you handle the bumps / Glassing the wing ? 6. Re: wing construction ideas 7. Re: wing construction ideas 8. Re: wing construction ideas 9. Re: Flutter 10. Re: How do you handle the bumps / Glassing the wing ? 11. Re: Flutter 12. Re: Flutter 13. Re: Flutter 14. KR-Net archives 15. Re: How do you handle the bumps / Glassing the wing ? 16. ALL COMPOSITE KR2S 17. Re: ALL COMPOSITE KR2S 18. Re: ALL COMPOSITE KR2S 19. Re: Flutter 20. Seat back angle? 21. Re: How do you handle the bumps / Glassing the wing ? 22. Re: ALL COMPOSITE KR2S 23. Re: Seat back angle? 24. Re: Seat back angle? 25. Re: Flutter 26. Re: Wing spars, (revisited) 27. Re: Measuring Wing Incidence 28. Re: Measuring Wing Incidence ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Measuring Wing Incidence From: "Mark Langford" Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 07:03:22 -0000 X-Message-Number: 1 Douglas Dorfmeier wrote: >at this point I have no idea how I am going to measure the incidence of >the outer wing. Suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Don't the outer wing templates have a level line? You just make the fuselage "level" and twist the template on the spars till the "level line" which represents .5 degrees of incidence (not the chord line) is level too. There's some info on this (and defining "level" for your airplane) near the bottom of my "spars" chapter at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kspars.html , and you'll get truly excruciating details on exactly how to do this on my "outer wings" chapter at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/owings.html . You need to read both. I haven't looked at the templates in the plans for a while, but I do recall they may be a bit confusing. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: How do you handle the bumps / Glassing the wing ? From: "Doug Peyton" Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 05:20:42 PST X-Message-Number: 2 Ron, Put the cloth on at a 45-degree angle to get the maximun torsional strength for the least amount of weight, the least amount of material applied. Later, when you sand and feather-fill the wing surfaces, the bumps are not noticable. Apparently the overlapping weaves snuggle together real close. By the way, I advise you don't use peel-ply because it leaves nasty ridges along its edges when the glue hardens, which are very hard to sand out (you tend to sand away the adjacent fiberglass instead of the ridges). >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:51:30 -0500 >From: Ron Freiberger >Subject: [kr-net] How do you handle the bumps / Glassing the wing ? >To: "KR-net users group" >Reply-to: "KR-net users group" > >The one issue I've been stewing over, perhaps for no reason, is how do you >put the fibergless cloth on diagonally and not have ridges and lumps where >they overlap? >Do you putty them up and ignore, and is there a technique for getting smooth >joins? > >Also, is there data to support the need to go at 45 degrees, or is just >something that seems right? > >Ron Freiberger ... ready to build wings in Fort Myers > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: doug_peyton@hotmail.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: wing construction ideas From: Steven Eberhart Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:02:38 -0600 (CST) X-Message-Number: 3 The following links are to Tony K online Europa construction diary. I have pulled several of the wing construction pages for you to look at in hopes of getting a dialog started on alternate construction methods. This is how I am thinking about going with the straight wing composite spar wing construction. Links: http://www.kaon.co.nz/europa/272index.html Main index http://www.kaon.co.nz/europa/272g.html Getting started http://www.kaon.co.nz/europa/272h.html Continuing on http://www.kaon.co.nz/europa/272i.html Wing and some stabilator http://www.kaon.co.nz/europa/272j.html Continuing on http://www.kaon.co.nz/europa/272k.html Continuing on http://www.kaon.co.nz/europa/272l.html Continuing on http://www.kaon.co.nz/europa/272m.html Continuing on http://www.kaon.co.nz/europa/272n.html Continuing on http://www.kaon.co.nz/europa/272o.html More wing and some fuselage http://www.kaon.co.nz/europa/272p.html Continuing on http://www.kaon.co.nz/europa/272q.html Continuing on http://www.kaon.co.nz/europa/272r.html Wing tips http://www.kaon.co.nz/europa/272s.html Flaps Yes the flaps and ailerons are like I am thinking about for the straight wing. The Rutan style ailerons and slotted flaps should make a nice wing. http://www.kaon.co.nz/europa/272t.html More flaps and some fuselage http://www.kaon.co.nz/europa/272u.html Start of aileron controls http://www.kaon.co.nz/europa/272v.html More controls You can surf on from here. Hope you like Tony's diary of the construction of an/a Europa. Still haven't figured out if it is supposed to be "an" or "a" :-) There are a lot of possibilities in the Europa design and construction methods. Steve Eberhart ------------------------------------- http://www.newtech.com/nlf One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are easier to get. --plagiarized from an unknown author All information, in any of my aircraft related correspondence, is strictly food for thought and is in no way intended to imply that it is anything more than ideas requiring additional, qualified, engineering analysis. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: How do you handle the bumps / Glassing the wing ? From: "Mark Langford" Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:17:01 -0000 X-Message-Number: 4 Doug Peyton wrote: > By the way, I advise you don't use peel-ply >because it leaves nasty ridges along its edges when the glue hardens, >which are very hard to sand out (you tend to sand away the adjacent >fiberglass instead of the ridges). May I respectfully suggest that you might work on your technique a little more. I've found peelply to be infinitely better than an unruly entanglement of fiberglass allowed to cure into a messy pile. I've done too much of this sucessfully to let you steer folks away from it... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: How do you handle the bumps / Glassing the wing ? From: Steven Eberhart Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:27:22 -0600 (CST) X-Message-Number: 5 It sounds like the original post implied using peelply only over the lap joint of the fiberglass leaving the bulk of the layup un-peelplied. In this case I can see where there might be problems where the peelply ends but if the whole layup is peelplied then all of the problems go away and you end up with a beautiful layup. Try it you will like it. Steve Eberhart On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, Mark Langford wrote: > Doug Peyton wrote: > > > By the way, I advise you don't use peel-ply > >because it leaves nasty ridges along its edges when the glue hardens, > >which are very hard to sand out (you tend to sand away the adjacent > >fiberglass instead of the ridges). > > May I respectfully suggest that you might work on your technique a little > more. I've found peelply to be infinitely better than an unruly > entanglement of fiberglass allowed to cure into a messy pile. I've done too > much of this sucessfully to let you steer folks away from it... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: newtech@newtech.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ------------------------------------- http://www.newtech.com/nlf One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are easier to get. --plagiarized from an unknown author All information, in any of my aircraft related correspondence, is strictly food for thought and is in no way intended to imply that it is anything more than ideas requiring additional, qualified, engineering analysis. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: wing construction ideas From: "Wayne DeLisle Sr." Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:15:50 -0500 X-Message-Number: 6 At 08:02 AM 2/12/99 -0600, you wrote: >The following links are to Tony K online Europa construction diary. I >have pulled several of the wing construction pages for you to look at in >hopes of getting a dialog started on alternate construction methods. This >is how I am thinking about going with the straight wing composite spar >wing construction. > >You can surf on from here. Hope you like Tony's diary of the construction >of an/a Europa. Still haven't figured out if it is supposed to be "an" or >"a" :-) I've seen Tony's page before. It's well done. I don't see much info on spars or the spar sockets though. How about the Vari-ezy type of A/C. Does it use a socket type spar mount? Does anyone have a URL that shows the spar construction of this type construction?? WD Wayne DeLisle Sr. mailto:dodger@coincidental.net http://angst.webserve.net/~dodger ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: wing construction ideas From: Steven Eberhart Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:31:36 -0600 (CST) X-Message-Number: 7 The spar socket details are later in the diary where he is fitting the wings/spars to the fuselage. The spars basically overlap inside of the fuselage and are pinned together with two pins that tie the spars together and to the spar carrythrough. Very simple arrangement that is used by most gliders. THe aileron and flap linkages are self rigging and require no connections or adjustment when the wings are installed. I have the Rutan CDROMs that include the plans for all of the Rutan designs. The EZ's use a fixed stub spar that extends from the fuselage. THe forward portion includes the forward portion of the wing and includes the gas tanks. The removable wing panels bolt to the spar with three bolts. I have been helping on the construction of a Cozy IV which uses the same wing construction straight from the Long EZ plans. In fact most of the construction drawings are photo copies of Rutans drawings since Nat has the only license Rutan has signed for his construction methods. I think either the Rutan method or the Europa method would make a nice option for the new KR wings. I tend to lean toward the Europa because it will let you trailer your airplane to the field eliminating hanger expenses. I will put some pictures of the Cozy wing attach method out on a web page next week Steve Eberhart On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, Wayne DeLisle Sr. wrote: > At 08:02 AM 2/12/99 -0600, you wrote: > >The following links are to Tony K online Europa construction diary. I > >have pulled several of the wing construction pages for you to look at in > >hopes of getting a dialog started on alternate construction methods. This > >is how I am thinking about going with the straight wing composite spar > >wing construction. > > > >You can surf on from here. Hope you like Tony's diary of the construction > >of an/a Europa. Still haven't figured out if it is supposed to be "an" or > >"a" :-) > > I've seen Tony's page before. It's well done. I don't see much info on > spars or the spar sockets though. > > How about the Vari-ezy type of A/C. Does it use a socket type spar mount? > > Does anyone have a URL that shows the spar construction of this type > construction?? > > WD > Wayne DeLisle Sr. > mailto:dodger@coincidental.net > http://angst.webserve.net/~dodger > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: newtech@newtech.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ------------------------------------- http://www.newtech.com/nlf One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are easier to get. --plagiarized from an unknown author All information, in any of my aircraft related correspondence, is strictly food for thought and is in no way intended to imply that it is anything more than ideas requiring additional, qualified, engineering analysis. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: wing construction ideas From: "Wayne DeLisle Sr." Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:51:24 -0500 X-Message-Number: 8 Ha yes, I remember now about the Ez wings. Haven't seen one in several years. I agree on the Europa spars/sockets, much simpler and, as you say, easy to trailer. Thanks, WD At 09:31 AM 2/12/99 -0600, you wrote: > >The spar socket details are later in the diary where he is fitting the >wings/spars to the fuselage. The spars basically overlap inside of the >fuselage and are pinned together with two pins that tie the spars together >and to the spar carrythrough. Very simple arrangement that is used by >most gliders. THe aileron and flap linkages are self rigging and require >no connections or adjustment when the wings are installed. > >I have the Rutan CDROMs that include the plans for all of the Rutan >designs. The EZ's use a fixed stub spar that extends from the fuselage. >THe forward portion includes the forward portion of the wing and includes >the gas tanks. The removable wing panels bolt to the spar with three >bolts. I have been helping on the construction of a Cozy IV which uses >the same wing construction straight from the Long EZ plans. In fact most >of the construction drawings are photo copies of Rutans drawings since Nat >has the only license Rutan has signed for his construction methods. > >I think either the Rutan method or the Europa method would make a nice >option for the new KR wings. I tend to lean toward the Europa because it >will let you trailer your airplane to the field eliminating hanger >expenses. > >I will put some pictures of the Cozy wing attach method out on a web page >next week > >Steve Eberhart > >On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, Wayne DeLisle Sr. wrote: > >> At 08:02 AM 2/12/99 -0600, you wrote: >> >The following links are to Tony K online Europa construction diary. I >> >have pulled several of the wing construction pages for you to look at in >> >hopes of getting a dialog started on alternate construction methods. This >> >is how I am thinking about going with the straight wing composite spar >> >wing construction. >> > >> >You can surf on from here. Hope you like Tony's diary of the construction >> >of an/a Europa. Still haven't figured out if it is supposed to be "an" or >> >"a" :-) >> >> I've seen Tony's page before. It's well done. I don't see much info on >> spars or the spar sockets though. >> >> How about the Vari-ezy type of A/C. Does it use a socket type spar mount? >> >> Does anyone have a URL that shows the spar construction of this type >> construction?? >> >> WD >> Wayne DeLisle Sr. >> mailto:dodger@coincidental.net >> http://angst.webserve.net/~dodger >> >> --- >> You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: newtech@newtech.com >> To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com >> > >------------------------------------- >http://www.newtech.com/nlf > >One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are >easier to get. > --plagiarized from an unknown author > >All information, in any of my aircraft related correspondence, is strictly >food for thought and is in no way intended to imply that it is anything >more than ideas requiring additional, qualified, engineering analysis. > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: dodger@coincidental.net >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > Wayne DeLisle Sr. mailto:dodger@coincidental.net http://angst.webserve.net/~dodger ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Flutter From: "R.W. Moore" Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:48:06 -0500 X-Message-Number: 9 ABOUT HOW MUCH WEIGTH (POUNDS) DID YOU USE ON THE AILERONS. R. W. MOORE -----Original Message----- From: Krwr1@aol.com To: KR-net users group Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 8:04 AM Subject: [kr-net] Re: Flutter >In a message dated 2/10/99 11:11:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, >drdean@execpc.com writes: > >> >> A week or so ago, somebody was asking about flutter. This just came across >> the DragonFly List and I found it very interesting reading. I will repost >it >> here, unedited. >> > > Bill Here > > I experienced flutter one time in the KR while making a high speed pass . >Lucky for me I had just started to pull up and reduced power when it struck. >The ailerons were a blur . I had just repainted the wings and did not >rebalence the ailerons. > I found no damage to the ailerons or wings. I almost meet my maker that >day. > WildBill(not so wild anymore) > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rwmoore@alltel.net >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: How do you handle the bumps / Glassing the wing ? From: Mike Mims Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:08:23 -0800 X-Message-Number: 10 Mark Langford wrote: > Doug Peyton wrote: > > > By the way, I advise you don't use peel-ply > >because it leaves nasty ridges along its edges when the glue hardens, > >which are very hard to sand out (you tend to sand away the adjacent > >fiberglass instead of the ridges). > > May I respectfully suggest that you might work on your technique a little > more. I agree 300%! All the hard-core glass plane builders (as well as myself) here in Southern Ca us peel ply on almost every joint. In fact some guys are covering the entire airplane with peelply after the final layup. It seems to work great as they use far less filler in the end. -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290 (Sky Pig 290) ,..Building Cowling now mailto:mikemims@home.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Aliso Viejo Ca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Flutter From: Mike Mims Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:14:46 -0800 X-Message-Number: 11 "R.W. Moore" wrote: > ABOUT HOW MUCH WEIGTH (POUNDS) DID YOU USE ON THE AILERONS. > R. W. MOORE > I think your gonna find that what I use or what Joe uses as far as weight goes for balancing useless. Every control surface is different and will take varying amounts of weight to balance it. The plans show you how to balance it 100%. I think (someone correct me if I am wrong) the first KR1s did not have balance weights on the ailerons. Anyway the weight it takes to get the 100% balance will depend on YOUR control surface. -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290 (Sky Pig 290) ,..Building Cowling now mailto:mikemims@home.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Aliso Viejo Ca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Flutter From: Bobby Muse Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:14:15 -0600 X-Message-Number: 12 At 08:02 AM 02/11/1999 EST, you wrote: >I > I experienced flutter one time in the KR while making a high speed pass . >Lucky for me I had just started to pull up and reduced power when it struck. >The ailerons were a blur . I had just repainted the wings and did not >rebalence the ailerons. > I found no damage to the ailerons or wings. I almost meet my maker that >day. > WildBill(not so wild anymore) > Wild Bill, How fast were you going at the time you experienced futter? I have been over 200mph(slightly)and have not felt futter but it does worry me that it could happen. My tail feathers are not balanced. If I were building today, I would balance all flying/control surfaces. Bobby Muse mailto:bmuse@mindspring.com Wimberly, TX ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Flutter From: Krwr1@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:33:54 EST X-Message-Number: 13 In a message dated 2/12/99 1:16:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, bmuse@mindspring.com writes: > > Wild Bill, How fast were you going at the time you experienced futter? I > have been over 200mph(slightly)and have not felt futter but it does worry me > that it could happen. My tail feathers are not balanced. If I were > building today, I would balance all flying/control surfaces. > > > Bobby Muse > mailto:bmuse@mindspring.com > Wimberly, TX > > > Bobby I was too busy to look, but I regularly flew the KR over 200 mph on let down from high altitude. And this day of flutter, I was really moving. I never had a problem with the other flying surfaces. I had one of the first set of plans, and It did call for balance ailerons . Bill ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: KR-Net archives From: "Wayne DeLisle Sr." Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:47:51 -0500 X-Message-Number: 14 Hmmm... The KR-Net archives seem to be offline. WD Wayne DeLisle Sr. mailto:dodger@coincidental.net http://angst.webserve.net/~dodger ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: How do you handle the bumps / Glassing the wing ? From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:03:39 EST X-Message-Number: 15 In a message dated 2/12/99 8:39:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, doug_peyton@hotmail.com writes: << I advise you don't use peel-ply because it leaves nasty ridges along its edges when the glue hardens, which are very hard to sand out >> I've got to throw a "me too" in on this one.............................definitely, without a doubt use peel ply, it is worth it's weight in gold when sanding time comes, i.e., very little sanding. If you don't know how to use it, just ask a ton of us on the KRnet will steer you right. Dana Overall Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: ALL COMPOSITE KR2S From: "Robert Sauer" Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:43:57 -0600 X-Message-Number: 16 FOOD FOR THOUGHT! WHY NOT FORM A NON-PROFIT FOUNDATION, BUY OUT ALL RIGHTS TO THE KR FROM RR, DO THE DEVELOPMENT WORK AND MARKET/MAINTAIN/SUPPORT THE DESIGN LIKE THE STINSON FOLKS. ALL PARTS COULD BE LESS EXPENSIVE, READILY AVAILABLE AND QUALITY CONTROLLED. JUST A THOUGHT! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: ALL COMPOSITE KR2S From: Horn2004@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:21:51 EST X-Message-Number: 17 In a message dated 2/12/99 1:45:35 PM, resauer@totalaccess.net writes: <> I suspect that RR looks at the KR series as a cash cow which requires minimal maintenance while providing a steady stream of income (for you fishermen, it's akin to having someone bait your hook, setting out a trot line and then easing back into your lawnchair with a cooler full of cold ones). I'm sure the rights buy-out would need to be high enough to provide a comfortable retirement for at least one individual. For a middle-aged female who's lifespan could require 35+ years of income, I suspect this would put the price out of the reach of a non-profit foundation. I think that modifying the design to the point where it is technically no longer a KR by including all the necessary technical/aerodynamic design changes to solve the problems which the KR posesses would be a better way to go. Document the construction process in a construction manual form along with CAD generated plans and then market it as a new aircraft (which technically it would be) and you'd be way ahead of the game. Reading between the lines here on KR-NET over the past year has led me to believe that perhaps this idea has already progressed well beyond its infancy and could possibly become a reality in the not too distant future. Just some personal opinions and observations on my part. Not intended to start any rumors. Steve Horn horn2004@aol.com Dallas, TX ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: ALL COMPOSITE KR2S From: "Dean Collette" Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:49:02 -0600 X-Message-Number: 18 >I think that modifying the design to the point where it is technically no >longer a KR by including all the necessary technical/aerodynamic design >changes to solve the problems which the KR posesses would be a better way to >go. Document the construction process in a construction manual form along with >CAD generated plans and then market it as a new aircraft (which technically it >would be) and you'd be way ahead of the game. > >Reading between the lines here on KR-NET over the past year has led me to >believe that perhaps this idea has already progressed well beyond its infancy >and could possibly become a reality in the not too distant future. I'd say, you can count on it. Dean mailto:drdean@execpc.com Web Site at http://www.execpc.com/~drdean/home.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Flutter From: JEHayward@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:15:49 EST X-Message-Number: 19 In a message dated 2/12/99 11:16:12 AM Mountain Standard Time, bmuse@mindspring.com writes: << My tail feathers are not balanced. If I were building today, I would balance all flying/control surfaces. >> Bobby, is there some reason it can't be done 'after the fact'? Jim Hayward Rapid City, SD ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Seat back angle? From: "Dean Collette" Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:33:23 -0600 X-Message-Number: 20 For those of you that have actually spent some real time in the air in a KR - Is there a better seat back angle than what the plans show? If you had it to do all over again, what would you do with the seat back, a little more upright, or laid back? When I bought my donor plane last summer, I sat in it for about an hour, just trying to see how the seats worked, and overall, they didn't seem too bad. But an hour isn't quite the same as several hours flying. All of the opinions I can get would be very welcome. Dean mailto:drdean@execpc.com Web Site at http://www.execpc.com/~drdean/home.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: How do you handle the bumps / Glassing the wing ? From: Bobby Muse Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:10:19 -0600 X-Message-Number: 21 At 05:20 AM 02/12/1999 PST, you wrote: >Ron, > Put the cloth on at a 45-degree angle to get the maximun torsional >strength for the least amount of weight, the least amount of material >applied. Later, when you sand and feather-fill the wing surfaces, the >bumps are not noticable. Apparently the overlapping weaves snuggle >together real close. By the way, I advise you don't use peel-ply >because it leaves nasty ridges along its edges when the glue hardens, >which are very hard to sand out (you tend to sand away the adjacent >fiberglass instead of the ridges). Construction Hint: Don't sand those 'ridges'. Buy a stiff or heavy-duty small putty knife and grind the sharp edge flat using a bench grinder and scrape those 'ridges' off. You can control what, where and how much you are removeing a lot easier and faster than sandpaper. If the blade gets dull, go back to the grinder. Works great. Bobby Muse mailto:bmuse@mindspring.com Wimberly, TX ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: ALL COMPOSITE KR2S From: Bobby Muse Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:25:09 -0600 X-Message-Number: 22 At 05:21 PM 02/12/1999 EST, you wrote: > >In a message dated 2/12/99 1:45:35 PM, resauer@totalaccess.net writes: > >< >DO THE DEVELOPMENT WORK AND MARKET/MAINTAIN/SUPPORT THE DESIGN LIKE THE > >STINSON FOLKS.>> > >I suspect that RR looks at the KR series as a cash cow which requires minimal >maintenance while providing a steady stream of income (for you fishermen, it's >akin to having someone bait your hook, setting out a trot line and then easing >back into your lawnchair with a cooler full of cold ones). I'm sure the rights >buy-out would need to be high enough to provide a comfortable retirement for >at least one individual. For a middle-aged female who's lifespan could require >35+ years of income, I suspect this would put the price out of the reach of a >non-profit foundation. > >I think that modifying the design to the point where it is technically no >longer a KR by including all the necessary technical/aerodynamic design >changes to solve the problems which the KR posesses would be a better way to >go. Document the construction process in a construction manual form along with >CAD generated plans and then market it as a new aircraft (which technically it >would be) and you'd be way ahead of the game. > >Reading between the lines here on KR-NET over the past year has led me to >believe that perhaps this idea has already progressed well beyond its infancy >and could possibly become a reality in the not too distant future. > >Just some personal opinions and observations on my part. Not intended to start >any rumors. > >Steve Horn >horn2004@aol.com >Dallas, TX > > This is only my personal opinion: Maybe it time for me to get off the KR-net or maybe you guys should change the name. Bobby Muse mailto:bmuse@mindspring.com Wimberly, TX ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Seat back angle? From: NFCKR3@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:33:33 EST X-Message-Number: 23 Dean I don't know what my seat angle is but I suspect that it is more than normal as my KR has a Dragonfly canopy. I recently tried to adjust the angle and height and ended up with my head against the canopy. I use my KR for cross country flying and I haven't noticed any problems, except I would like to have a headrest. I think that that would really make it conformable, only problem is how to mount it and still be able to get in! I will come up with something. Also while I am at it I just want to give a big attaboy to the folks at SkySports. I recently had a problem with my fuel gauge and so I ordered a whole new setup. After receiving it I discovered that it was a wire that was broken inside a crimp connector (Don't Squeeze too hard or you can cut the wire!). When I called about a return they were most gracious and even let me return it and keep the gauge (I had to pay for it of course). Talked to their technician in several occasions and again most willing to help. They also have some real neat master cylinders that mount on the floor (heel Brakes) at a good price. They have a real nice FREE catalog and a web site: airstuff.com. Skip Carden 250KB ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Seat back angle? From: Bobby Muse Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:38:42 -0600 X-Message-Number: 24 At 06:33 PM 02/12/1999 -0600, you wrote: >For those of you that have actually spent some real time in the air in a >KR - Is there a better seat back angle than what the plans show? If you had >it to do all over again, what would you do with the seat back, a little more >upright, or laid back? > >When I bought my donor plane last summer, I sat in it for about an hour, >just trying to see how the seats worked, and overall, they didn't seem too >bad. But an hour isn't quite the same as several hours flying. All of the >opinions I can get would be very welcome. > >Dean > Dean, Find the most comfortable chair that you can find, measure the angle and use it. That's what I did. I use tempura foam in my seat and can honestly tell you that I have NEVER felt uncomfortable in my KR due to the feel of the seats. Bobby Muse mailto:bmuse@mindspring.com Wimberly, TX ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Flutter From: Bobby Muse Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:38:40 -0600 X-Message-Number: 25 At 06:15 PM 02/12/1999 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 2/12/99 11:16:12 AM Mountain Standard Time, >bmuse@mindspring.com writes: > ><< My tail feathers are not balanced. If I were building today, >I would balance all flying/control surfaces. >> > > Bobby, is there some reason it can't be done 'after the fact'? > > Jim Hayward > Rapid City, SD > Yes, it can be done after the fact but the only way that I can figure out to do it will require repainting my KR. I don't worry about futter as long as I keep the speed under 200mph. By the way, I have been over 200mph several times. Just like WildBill, when you see a hole in the clouds you go for it. In a KR, the speed builds up real fast when you put the nose down. Bobby Muse mailto:bmuse@mindspring.com Wimberly, TX ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Wing spars, (revisited) From: Troy Johnson Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 23:28:04 +0000 X-Message-Number: 26 I am definitely interested in a redesigned spar utilizing a center pin application...I have already started making plans to adapt the Sonex gear to my plane since I have yet to start construction (my wood will be delivered on Monday ! ). I too am willing to contribute more to this endeavor ...anything to improve the performance, safety and overall utility of this aircraft that I am about to invest a considerable amount of money and time to this project. Troy A. Johnson Steven Eberhart wrote: > On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Wayne DeLisle Sr. wrote: > > > At 11:04 AM 2/11/99 -0600, you wrote: > > > > > >I just had an email discussion with Mark Langford about this subject > > >yesterday! I was looking for a set of WAF's to use on the new composite > > >spar so that the spar could be tested to destruction. I have most of the > > >materials to build up a KR-2S spar for the AS5048 18% root/AS5045 15% tip > > >airfoil wing. Hope to get started on this within the next month. > > > > Hi Steve, > > > > Sounds good. Count me in when you need some $$. > > > > Another question, > > > > Would it be practical to build a plug-in spar like is used > > in sailplanes?? It would eliminate those costly WAFs. > > > > That is my first choice but I have been persuaded to do the WAF version > first. My personal prefferance (sp?) is for plug in spars that overlap > inside the cockpit and are joined by two "pip" pins. THis eliminates the > dihedral break out on the wing and puts it at the fuselage, where it > should be IMHO. THe main problem is where to hang the wheels. Several of > us have been talking about a new motor mount that has sockets for a pair > of Sonex titanium gear legs that angle back ala Sonex and RV. Sonex has > indicated that they will sell the gear leggs separately. > > If the interrest in the plug in one piece wing is greater than that for > the stock configuration, I will do the plug in wings first. KRNetters let > me know what your preferences are, straight wings with Sonex gear or bent > wings with WAFs and Diehl gear. > > If the Europa style of aileron pushrod coupling is used then all that > would be required to pull the wings would be to remove the two pip pins > and slide the wings off. You are getting close to being able to have a > trailerable KR with five minute rigging just like the Europa. > > Steve Eberhart > ------------------------------------- > http://www.newtech.com/nlf > > One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are > easier to get. > --plagiarized from an unknown author > > All information, in any of my aircraft related correspondence, is strictly > food for thought and is in no way intended to imply that it is anything > more than ideas requiring additional, qualified, engineering analysis. > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: tjohnson@speedchoice.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Measuring Wing Incidence From: "w.g. kirkland" Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 01:37:33 -0500 X-Message-Number: 27 Doug: level the fuselage using the firewall as vertical. Locate and mark the spot on the upper longeron that now gives a level indication. use this as your reference for level. Don't forget to level the fuselage x ways also. From the plans note where the cord passes through each spar and mark the cord line on the end of the spar. On the forward spar drill a small hole in the centre of the web where the cord crosses. Insert about a 2" length of dowel. (this is to support your level) Measure the distance to the centre of the aft spar. Using the formula for the tan of the angle of incidence times the distance between the centre of the spars measure up that amount above the cord line on the aft spar. Drill a small hole and insert another dowel in the web. Lay the level on the dowels and when it reads level you have the angle of incidence you want. It's real easy and far more accurate than a protactor. ie Tan 3.5 deg = .0612. The spar centres are 23.625" apart. Therefore the rear dowel should be 1.456" above the cord line. At least thats what my sliderule says. Nowyou have an idea what generation I'm from. If you don't like holes in you webs just glue the dowels in and cut them off. W.G. KIRKLAND kirkland@vianet.on.ca ---------- > From: Douglas Dorfmeier > To: KR-net users group > Subject: [kr-net] Measuring Wing Incidence > Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 12:02 AM > > I plan to start work on my wings soon and have been strugling with the > question of how to best measure wing incidence. I am tentatively > planning on measuring the incidence using the firewall as a guide, but > at this point I have no idea how I am going to measure the incidence of > the outer wing. Suggestions would be greatly appreciated. > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: kirkland@vianet.on.ca > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Measuring Wing Incidence From: Mike Mims Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 22:47:44 -0800 X-Message-Number: 28 "w.g. kirkland" wrote: > <<>> Lots of good advise on the leveling of KRs. FWIW I used the center spar and clamped a piece of angle to the aft face and used that to level the airplane. After all the center main spar should be pretty close to vertical once its mounted if you built your fuselage correct. -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims SP290 (Sky Pig 290) ,..Building Cowling now mailto:mikemims@home.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Aliso Viejo Ca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: johnbou@timberline.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com