From: KR-net users group digest[SMTP:kr-net@telelists.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 12:18 AM To: kr-net digest recipients Subject: kr-net digest: March 23, 1999 KR-net users group Digest for Tuesday, March 23, 1999. 1. Prop RPM 2. another "me too" post 3. Re: KRNet 4. Re: Online manual 5. Re: Online manual 6. Re: Online manual, advertising, other issues.... 7. POSA Stuff 8. Re: looking at kr's in michigan 9. Re: Online manual 10. Dana's wings 11. manual 12. Re: Dana's wings 13. Re: POSA Stuff 14. Re: manual 15. Re: manual 16. Re: manual 17. Re: manual 18. 3700 RPM 19. Advertisements, Only on Friday 20. KR Online manual 21. Re: 3700 RPM 22. Re: Fibreglass epoxy 23. Re: KR Online manual 24. Re: KR Online manual 25. Re: KR Online manual 26. Re: KR Online manual 27. sealing spars 28. Re: sealing spars 29. Re: sealing spars 30. Re: KR Online manual 31. Re: KR Online manual 32. Re: KR Online manual 33. Re: KR Online manual 34. Re: manual 35. Manual -- Q&A 36. Re: 3700 RPM 37. Re: manual 38. Re: Manual -- Q&A 39. Re: Online manual 40. On line manuals 41. Online Manual ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Prop RPM From: "Blandford, Carlton C" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:08:17 +0200 X-Message-Number: 1 Morning chaps, Would any of you guys know the recommended static PROP RPM required from a 90hp VW turning a 55" three blade warp drive through a planetary reduction 1.47 to 1. At this time my static prop RPM is 2500 at engine RPM 3700. What would be the best setup? Thks Carlton Blandford Standard Bank - Integrated Network Services Tel No: 027 11 636-8372 Fax No: 027 11 636-3074 *CBlandford@Mail.SBIC.co.za ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: another "me too" post From: "Richard Parker" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 02:49:36 PST X-Message-Number: 2 >> Advertisements should be limited to one day each week only. Maybe we select Friday(or whatever). Also, it will be O.K. to reference item purchased from any vendor(ie. Wicks, AS&S, Leading or Trailing Edge, etc.) or other aircraft manufactors(ie. Dragonfly, RVs, etc.).>>>>> I'm for it as long as people state that it is an advertisement etc in the subject line. It seems that this list already suffers from having more "me too" type posts than actual building questions/hints. The lurkers often tend to appear in great numbers when a non building Kr-net issue appears. In the winter the number seems to increase greatly. I'd just like to be able to hit the delete button more often but when the chatter comes under the subject heading of a building issue i'm drawn into it. Rich Parker richontheroad@hotmail.com http://top.monad.net/~theparkers/kr.htm Jaffrey, NH Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: KRNet From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:12:02 EST X-Message-Number: 3 In a message dated 3/22/99 10:07:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, bmuse@mindspring.com writes: << I suggest that we allow commerical advertisements concerning the KR only. Advertisements should be limited to one day each week only. Maybe we select Friday(or whatever). Also, it will be O.K. to reference item purchased from any vendor(ie. Wicks, AS&S, Leading or Trailing Edge, etc.) or other aircraft manufactors(ie. Dragonfly, RVs, etc.). >> This sounds like a heck of idea. The only thing we need to watch out for is someone asking a question concerning an item a vendor does sell. We probably need to allow that vendor (Bennett, Trailing Edge, or whoever) to be able to answer that question without advertising and not have to worry if he is going to pis#$@# someone off,.................as long as it pertains to KRs. I'm like everyone else, this is not an advertising forum nor is it a chat room. Let's cut back on the me too stuff and "Dan I'll be in town" stuff, send the guy an off the KRnet e-mail. If 400+ people don't need to hear your conversation, do it ofline. Dana Overall 1999 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY mailto: kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Online manual From: "Mark Langford" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:27:12 -0600 X-Message-Number: 4 OK, tonight I'll peck out a list of "chapters" or "topics" that will attempt to cover all aspects of construction, unless somebody with more time on their hands would like to beat me to it. Steve Eberhart has volunteered to allow this project to run on his server, and this might be just the ticket. Everybody would have access to it to add their chapters, and no one guy would spend the next month ftping files back and forth. You'd have to be careful about editing the main "table of contents" though, because two guys might edit a the same time and overwrite the other's revisions. There really are a lot of topics though, and a whole bunch of people are going to need to volunteer to do a little, or this will just be a waste of our time. Maybe the way to get around the problem mentioned above would be to have guy who does the short "main" page with links to the other pages. When you get your page done, you'd email to "main page" guy with your document name and he'd add it. All chapters would be in different directory to eliminate the possbility of two images with the same names overwriting each other. Anybody up for that job? It would be pretty easy, but would require updating the header every day so we'd all know who was working on what, and what was still left to be done. Anybody not fluent in HTML could send their text (Word, DOS, whatever) to an "editor" and have it converted. Be advised that recent versions of Word export ("save as") HTML so that's a piece of cake for anybody with Word 6 or later. I don't think Jeannette will mind us doing this. It's more fuel for her "look at our outstanding web support" fire. And when people see that there's no magic involved in KR construction, her sales will increase. And we'll have given her a far better manual than she has now, complete with clear color pictures, and written in the nineties. My web page, when printed out, is twice as thick as her manual. And I don't see anything wrong with a suggestion here and there that the fuselage can be widened or lengthened, as long as both sides of the story are presented. And it's not her liability problem if she didn't even know about it... When we think it's done, we can PDF it. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Online manual From: Jim Faughn Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:48:58 -0600 X-Message-Number: 5 I like this idea. Given this is budget season for me, original writing of a chapter would be more difficult. However, I would love to help editing the thing for clarity. I could also dig up my spreadsheet on weight and balance and we could include it as well. I might suggest that someone needs to establish the chapters first. Second, based on the chapters, see if there are a set of questions that are always asked when building what is in the chapter. Finally write the chapter with the goal of ensuring those questions are clearly answered. -- Jim Faughn N8931JF St. Louis, MO (314) 652-7659 or (573) 465-8039 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Online manual, advertising, other issues.... From: "Wayne DeLisle Sr." Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:58:30 -0500 X-Message-Number: 6 Good morning netheads. Several issues relative to the health and welfare of KRnet have been kicked around lately. Here is my take on what I like/dislike on all this. 1. Advertising. I welcome anyone to tell me about anything that has anything to do with building my KR. I don't care what it is, as long as I might benefit in my project. Just don't overdo it. So far, I've seen nothing that has been advertised here that I would ban in the future. 2. Online builders manual This has got to be one of the best possible uses of all the info and ideas that go on here. There are so many ways to build a KR, that it will be somewhat of a weeding process to distill all of it into the manual. I personally would like to see more then one set of directions for any area of the KR that might be relevant. Example: There are at least 4 different styles/ways of building a canopy. All are relevant and useful. This may be the most obvious example, but there are others as well. As far as R/R goes, if they want to use any ideas I contribute, that is OK with me, as long as no liability reflects back on me through this use. OTOH, If R/R isn't interested, that's fine as well. The online manual should be the property of KRnet, and anyone should have the right to reproduce it in other media, as long as no profit is sought in such activity. Reasonable disclaimers will likely need to be included in the documentation, so that KRnet and it's members will not be liable for misuse/misunderstanding the information by others. I personally have a couple of years of technical writing experience and I would be happy to assist in the editing for readability of any/all info. To summarize, we, the members of KRnet collectively know more about building a KR type A/C then anyone else in the world. 3. Other issues Anything else that is not related to building/flying a KR should be directed privately to the sender, and not broadcast the world. This includes me too's, many thanks, I agrees, internet viruses/worms/trojan horses, smart remarks, flames of any kind, etc. Many of you folk here already know about my use of private email in this respect. You will find that I have never flamed anyone here or on any other list. I consider good manners to be more important then any other issue. Thanks for listening, WD -------------------------------------------- Wayne DeLisle Sr. Charlotte, NC mailto:dodger@coincidental.net http://angst.webserve.net/~dodger -------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: POSA Stuff From: "Oscar Zuniga" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:04:25 PST X-Message-Number: 7 Hello, Netters I ftp'd the POSA stuff from Cary Honeywell's site, and will try to include it on the KRNet CD-ROM if it all transferred successfully. Almost an hour to snag those pups; buncha megs there. Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon website at http://www.geocities.com/Pipeline/Dropzone/5610/ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: looking at kr's in michigan From: "Albert Pecoraro" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:05:01 EST X-Message-Number: 8 Netters, Reminder about rules of KR-Net etiquette: Could you please modify the subject heading in your reply if you are going to change the topic of discussion. For example, I have been following the "Looking at KR's in Michigan" thread and it no longer has anything to do with KR's in Michigan. And yes, I know, this reply violates the rules because it has nothing to do with KR's in Michigan, but I needed to demonstrate my point. Thanks. Albert ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Eddie KIng" Reply-To: "KR-net users group" To: "KR-net users group" Subject: [kr-net] Re: looking at kr's in michigan Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:56:50 -0000 John I do have some drawings and details of the parts. Don't get any time during the working week so will try and dig them out and get back at the weekend. Eddie King ----- Original Message ----- From: John Esch To: KR-net users group Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 5:58 AM Subject: [kr-net] Re: looking at kr's in michigan >Eddie >Would you have drawings for your sliding canopy setup? > >John F. Esch >Salem, OR >KR-2SSW > >Eddie KIng wrote: >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Eddie KIng >> To: Mike Mims >> Sent: Sunday, March 21, 1999 6:17 PM >> Subject: Re: [kr-net] Re: looking at kr's in michigan >> I got a bounce back from your email address so this reply is to the group. >> I've redone the jpg's to gif's, might work better now? >> >> >Mike, >> >I need to re-do the pix, they're there on my browser (IE5) maybe not on >> >others. >> >'DF flies a bit like she looks, nice handling, climbs about 1030fpm at >> >65kts, cruises 125 kts at 2950, fun to land in a crosswind (if you don't >> >have to don't do it!) >> >We've got disc brakes, alternator, electric start, Elison carb plus radio & >> >gps, great relaxation after work. >> >The HAPI magnum was bought new by the builder in about '89 and stored until >> >'94 so it's only done 15 hours from new. Very crisp, starts on the button, >> >the head, oil & egts all stay in the green. The weather over here has been >> >very changeable so i've only flown it five hours so far (as I write this >> its >> >blowing about 35-40 not a day to fly small airplanes!) >> >Eddie King >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: Mike Mims >> >To: Eddie KIng >> >Sent: Sunday, March 21, 1999 6:02 PM >> >Subject: Re: [kr-net] Re: looking at kr's in michigan >> > >> > >> >>Eddie KIng wrote: >> >>> >> >> See what you think at >> >>> http://www.a1techno.com/kr2/ >> >>> >> >> >> >>Eddie, the top picture is not there. Maybe it wasn't loaded to the >> >>server? Good looking KR by the way! How do you like the way it flies? >> >>Also how is the performance with the HAPPY Magnum? >> >> >> >> >> >>-- >> >>zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz >> >>Micheal Mims >> >>KR290S (Sky Pig) ,..Building ailerons and sanding the wings... >> >>mailto:mikemims@home.com >> >>http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ >> >>Aliso Viejo Ca >> >>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> >> > >> >> --- >> You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: jfesch@home.com >> To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: king@netgates.co.uk >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > --- You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: apec97@hotmail.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Online manual From: "Mark Langford" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:17:31 -0600 X-Message-Number: 9 I've been getting lots of helpful input and here's where I think we're headed. We'll put a sort of HTML (or Word) template on Steve Eberhart's server that everybody can download and use to get started with. I have to admit that I like raw HTML better than Word's overly enhanced version of HTML because it's much more compact and just about any browser can run it. Kimball Anderson has volunteered to ramrod the main page from which all of the chapters or topics are called. Everybody who does a chapter will be given the account name and password on Steve's server so they can put stuff in there when they need to. Tonight I'll do the rough cut (somebody beat me, please) at what chapters and topics we need to address, and then folks can pick the one they want to do and Kimball can stick their name out next to it's place holder. I'll get that first page started and put it out there tonight, and he can take it from there. Everybody that's afraid of HTML should take a look at how easy and simple it is (view, source) and you'll realize that HTML is as simple as DOS text, almost. Anybody that needs some pictures scanned can post the request and some volunteers will hopefully scan them for you. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford -----Original Message----- From: Jim Faughn To: KR-net users group Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 6:44 AM Subject: [kr-net] Re: Online manual >I like this idea. Given this is budget season for me, original writing >of a chapter would be more difficult. However, I would love to help >editing the thing for clarity. I could also dig up my spreadsheet on >weight and balance and we could include it as well. > >I might suggest that someone needs to establish the chapters first. >Second, based on the chapters, see if there are a set of questions that >are always asked when building what is in the chapter. Finally write the >chapter with the goal of ensuring those questions are clearly answered. > >-- >Jim Faughn N8931JF >St. Louis, MO >(314) 652-7659 or (573) 465-8039 > > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: langford@hiwaay.net >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Dana's wings From: Steven Eberhart Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:09:58 -0600 (CST) X-Message-Number: 10 Dana, Dana, Dana, You have this process all wrong. You build the airplane, then fly it. You don't build it, tear it apart, and then re-build it! What was once an airplane almost ready to take flight is now tailless and wingless. THis has to stop. I know I am responsible for the new tail not being ready for installation but you didn't have to tear the wings off to have something to do while waiting for the new tail :-) Just kidding, well sort of. We now expect chapters on installing Dan's wing skins and the new Mole tail for the new construction manual. Now see what you have gone and done. Steve Eberhart ------------------------------------- http://www.newtech.com/nlf One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are easier to get. --plagiarized from an unknown author All information, in any of my aircraft related correspondence, is strictly food for thought and is in no way intended to imply that it is anything more than ideas requiring additional, qualified, engineering analysis. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: manual From: "Rex Ellington" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:25:14 CST X-Message-Number: 11 manual enthusiasts: Fundamentally the manual is a good idea, BUT - The reason the kr2s is such a tremendous project is because all the little personal preference opportunities. Can you imagine the arguments that start if you try to settle on ONE way to do the control system???? Be VERY realistic before you take the first step into something like this. I have thought about writing a manual based on MY project, but doubt that I will live lone enough to even start after I get my project and book done. Rex Ellington Rex T. Ellington ellingto@gslan.offsys.ou.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Dana's wings From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:29:38 EST X-Message-Number: 12 In a message dated 3/23/99 11:11:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, newtech@newtech.com writes: << Dana, Dana, Dana, You have this process all wrong. You build the airplane, then fly it. You don't build it, tear it apart, and then rebuild it! What was once an airplane almost ready to take flight is now tailless and wingless. THis has to stop. >> Believe me there is some reason to the madness. Although I am firm in my belief that the RAF48 is not the optimum airfoil the KR, but the skins are available to accomplice what I want at this time. With that said, I am certain that skins will be available for the new 16% and 18% wings in the very near future. If they were available this month, I would use them. All the research and published documentation were not available when I laid up my wings or I would have used them in the first place. Here's the deal. I have ordered new spruce to build up a new rear center spar, it ships today. Easy, simple & quick job. I am going to remove the existing rear spar and move it up .55" to remove some of the excessive incident and to more properly align the wing and tail. This will alleviate the drag inherent in the incidents of each surface as the plans have you build it. This process will be painless and will go quickly. Now here is the neat part. I am going to go with an aileron that mounts to the aft of the rear spar and go only half the length of the outer wing panel instead of the skinny full length aileron that no one can figure out why it was used in the first place. This should more coordinate the elevator and aileron pressure. Another advantage here is I plan on leaving the upper skin surface on the "inside half of the outer panel" and reinforce the bottom with carbon fiber and use that as the upper surface of split flaps which will once again be mounted to the aft surface of the rear spar. This way, you don't have to use that hooky false spar to attach ailerons and flaps. My flaps will be a useful size instead of those little four inch things and I don't have to redesign the wheel to install a speed brake. The cable routing system will be the same system St. Mark has designed on Mt. Langford (inside joke here, you had to be there). It is the best design out there and is one of those ridiculously simplistic brilliant ideas that you kick yourself and wonder why no one else thought of it sooner. (sounds like Mark owes me one here, doesn't it) There's a whole bunch of birds I can kill with one stone. I'll still be able to fly this summer and will have the 40hrs. off of it by the gathering. Dana Overall 1999 KR Gathering host Richmond, Ky mailto: kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/hangar/7085/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: POSA Stuff From: "caryh" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:37:32 -0500 X-Message-Number: 13 You will probably find that the megs and megs translates into 5 pages of material. The JPeg files are all large scale which is why they are so large. I could have saved them as smaller files but the quality of the originals was pretty poor to begin with so I wanted them made available in a form that would translate properly onto printout. For the CDRom I suggest scrunching them up a bit. BTW thanks for ftp'ng them from my site. It actually makes me feel useful around here for once. - Cary - Reply to caryh@home.com Web http://members.home.net/caryh KR2 http://members.home.net/caryh/kr-2.htm -----Original Message----- From: Oscar Zuniga To: KR-net users group Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 10:05 AM Subject: [kr-net] POSA Stuff >Hello, Netters > >I ftp'd the POSA stuff from Cary Honeywell's site, and will try to >include it on the KRNet CD-ROM if it all transferred successfully. >Almost an hour to snag those pups; buncha megs there. > >Oscar Zuniga >Medford, Oregon >website at http://www.geocities.com/Pipeline/Dropzone/5610/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: manual From: "RONALD R.EASON" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:46:58 -0800 X-Message-Number: 14 HAS ANYONE CONSIDERED THE LIABILITY? IT CAN BE A BIG CONSIDERATION IF SOMEONE DRILLS A KR INTO THE GROUND AND SOME RELATIVE THINKS ITS THE PLANS THAT CAUSED THE ACCIDENT. THE COST OF JUST DEFINDING SUCH COLECTIVE LEDIGATION AGAINST ALL WHO CONTRIBUTE WILL BE EXPENSIVE. FOOD FOR THOUGHT. RON At 11:25 AM 3/23/99 CST, you wrote: >manual enthusiasts: > >Fundamentally the manual is a good idea, BUT - > >The reason the kr2s is such a tremendous project is >because all the little personal preference opportunities. > >Can you imagine the arguments that start if you try >to settle on ONE way to do the control system???? > >Be VERY realistic before you take the first step into >something like this. > >I have thought about writing a manual based on MY >project, but doubt that I will live lone enough to even >start after I get my project and book done. > >Rex Ellington >Rex T. Ellington >ellingto@gslan.offsys.ou.edu > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: jrlkc@mindspring.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: manual From: donald.norris@natinst.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:02:29 -0600 X-Message-Number: 15 This guy must be a lawer...... "RONALD R.EASON" on 03/23/99 04:46:58 PM Please respond to "KR-net users group" To: "KR-net users group" cc: (bcc: Donald Norris/AUS/NIC) Subject: [kr-net] Re: manual HAS ANYONE CONSIDERED THE LIABILITY? IT CAN BE A BIG CONSIDERATION IF SOMEONE DRILLS A KR INTO THE GROUND AND SOME RELATIVE THINKS ITS THE PLANS THAT CAUSED THE ACCIDENT. THE COST OF JUST DEFINDING SUCH COLECTIVE LEDIGATION AGAINST ALL WHO CONTRIBUTE WILL BE EXPENSIVE. FOOD FOR THOUGHT. RON At 11:25 AM 3/23/99 CST, you wrote: >manual enthusiasts: > >Fundamentally the manual is a good idea, BUT - > >The reason the kr2s is such a tremendous project is >because all the little personal preference opportunities. > >Can you imagine the arguments that start if you try >to settle on ONE way to do the control system???? > >Be VERY realistic before you take the first step into >something like this. > >I have thought about writing a manual based on MY >project, but doubt that I will live lone enough to even >start after I get my project and book done. > >Rex Ellington >Rex T. Ellington >ellingto@gslan.offsys.ou.edu > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: jrlkc@mindspring.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > --- You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: donald.norris@natinst.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: manual From: Steven Eberhart Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:12:41 -0600 (CST) X-Message-Number: 16 On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, RONALD R.EASON wrote: > HAS ANYONE CONSIDERED THE LIABILITY? IT CAN BE A BIG CONSIDERATION IF > SOMEONE DRILLS A KR INTO THE GROUND AND SOME RELATIVE THINKS ITS THE PLANS > THAT CAUSED THE ACCIDENT. THE COST OF JUST DEFINDING SUCH COLECTIVE > LEDIGATION AGAINST ALL WHO CONTRIBUTE WILL BE EXPENSIVE. > FOOD FOR THOUGHT. > > RON THis needs to be run past an Aviation lawyer but if the manual is clearly labled that the original manual is to be considered the documentation to build the airplane from and that the new document is only for educational purposes we should be OK. Besides, lawyers go for the deep pockets and anyone building a KR surely doesn't have deep enough pockets to warrent a second look. We may want to set up a not for profit corporation to do the work under. Dana Overall may be able to help out here. What do you think Dana? Steve Eberhart ------------------------------------- http://www.newtech.com/nlf One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are easier to get. --plagiarized from an unknown author All information, in any of my aircraft related correspondence, is strictly food for thought and is in no way intended to imply that it is anything more than ideas requiring additional, qualified, engineering and/or legal analysis. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: manual From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:27:48 EST X-Message-Number: 17 In a message dated 3/23/99 4:14:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, newtech@newtech.com writes: << THis needs to be run past an Aviation lawyer but if the manual is clearly labled that the original manual is to be considered the documentation to build the airplane from and that the new document is only for educational purposes we should be OK. We may want to set up a not for profit corporation to do the work under. Dana Overall may be able to help out here. What do you think Dana? Steve Eberhart >> You don't want to overcomplicate things like this. I thought of this very thing over the weekend when we discussed it at LangfordKosh. If you go saying that "this is the way you build this thing" and you are negligent...............you can't waive negligence. With that said, I can't imagine that starting a chapter with "This is how I constructed my wings" and then go and tell how you did it, would expose you to any greater liability than telling someone how to do it, even on the KRNet, probably less. Don't be so damn afraid, anyone with a typewriter and $20.00 can file a lawsuit. There's a big difference in "this is how I did it" and "this is how it's done". That portion of my practice dealing with limited liabilities is limited to tax law advantages inherent in each entity, I'm going to defer on this one over the KRNet. How's that for bugging out:-)? PS You guys with the cap locks, stop YELLING Dana Overall 1999 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY mailto: kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: 3700 RPM From: Ron Freiberger Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:31:12 -0500 X-Message-Number: 18 He wrote... Would any of you guys know the recommended static PROP RPM required from a 90hp VW turning a 55" three blade warp drive through a planetary reduction 1.47 to 1. At this time my static prop RPM is 2500 at engine RPM 3700. What would be the best setup? I'd say the best setup would be to release the brakes and go fly that rascal. Then, after some experience, adjust the prop (aka carve it) There will be some increase too as the (new ?) engine breaks in. Ron Freiberger .... Making a little vent outlet, readty to build wings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Advertisements, Only on Friday From: Ron Freiberger Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:31:09 -0500 X-Message-Number: 19 Lets just keep it simple, and throw any users of the net if their behavior is inappropriate. Or, Flame 'em into ashes.... That's fun! And, not just advertiser... beware the NetMom Is Net Mom one word?? Ron Freiberger ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: KR Online manual From: John Bryhan Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:25:59 -0700 X-Message-Number: 20 I've been following this thread and while I like the idea, I feel there has to be someone with final say on what is in and what is out. What's that old saying that "An elephant is a mouse that was designed by commitee" John jeb@thuntek.net http://www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm Los Alamos Now running Linux Microsoft free (at last!) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: 3700 RPM From: Mike Mims Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:27:50 -0800 X-Message-Number: 21 >>>> Would any of you guys know the recommended static PROP RPM required from a 90hp VW turning a 55" three blade warp drive through a planetary reduction 1.47 to 1. At this time my static prop RPM is 2500 at engine RPM 3700. What would be the best setup?>>>> I just recently read somewhere that one thing homebuilders overlook during the first flight phase is it the powerplant it producing maximum rate hp before take off. I cant remember what was recommended but that is awfully slow RPM for a 55 inch prop. Although the engine is up to the right HP your prop efficiency (thrust production) at that low of RPM would be really low. Now if your prop were 75 inches long that would be a different story. From all I have read about prop design the prop tip velocity should be close to or at the speed of sound at maximum rated take off HP and rpm. Good luck! FWIW a 55 inch prop can go close to 4500 rpm before the tips go sonic. -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims KR290S (Sky Pig) ,..Building ailerons and sanding the wings... mailto:mikemims@home.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Aliso Viejo Ca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Fibreglass epoxy From: Donald Reid Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:36:35 -0500 X-Message-Number: 22 John Martindale wrote: > > What's best for laying up fibreglass on KR's, Aeroepoxy from PTM&W > Industries,E-Zpoxy from Composite design or the RR brew?? I have had nothing but good results with the EZ-Poxy for structural work and AlphaPoxy for dry micro because it sands so much easier. -- Don Reid Bumpass, Va. mailto:donreid@erols.com KR2XL at http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Ultralights at http://www.erols.com/donreid/usua250.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: KR Online manual From: "JEAN" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:51:47 -0600 X-Message-Number: 23 I think that the editors must be experienced builders ( i.e. Bobby Muse, Jim Faughn etc. ) that have gone through the complete building and flight testing stage. Jean N4DD -----Original Message----- From: John Bryhan To: KR-net users group Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 6:30 PM Subject: [kr-net] KR Online manual >I've been following this thread and while I like the >idea, I feel there has to be someone with final say >on what is in and what is out. > >What's that old saying that >"An elephant is a mouse that was designed by commitee" > > >John jeb@thuntek.net >http://www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm > >Los Alamos >Now running Linux Microsoft free (at last!) > > > > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: N4DD@prodigy.net >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: KR Online manual From: "caryh" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:05:26 -0500 X-Message-Number: 24 Aw. And that means that us experienced Editors are left out I guess. - Cary - Reply to caryh@home.com Web http://members.home.net/caryh KR2 http://members.home.net/caryh/kr-2.htm -----Original Message----- From: JEAN To: KR-net users group Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 8:54 PM Subject: [kr-net] Re: KR Online manual >I think that the editors must be experienced builders ( i.e. Bobby Muse, Jim >Faughn etc. ) that have gone through the complete building and flight >testing stage. >Jean N4DD >-----Original Message----- >From: John Bryhan >To: KR-net users group >Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 6:30 PM >Subject: [kr-net] KR Online manual > > >>I've been following this thread and while I like the >>idea, I feel there has to be someone with final say >>on what is in and what is out. >> >>What's that old saying that >>"An elephant is a mouse that was designed by commitee" >> >> >>John jeb@thuntek.net >>http://www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krpage.htm >> >>Los Alamos >>Now running Linux Microsoft free (at last!) >> >> >> >> >> >>--- >>You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: N4DD@prodigy.net >>To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com >> > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: caryh@home.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: KR Online manual From: Mike Mims Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:27:19 -0800 X-Message-Number: 25 caryh wrote: > > Aw. And that means that us experienced Editors are left out I guess. > > - Cary - > Well obviously there would have to be a mix of experiences involved in editing. A person with a lot of experience with the KR and the original plans may be able to make heads or tails out of most anything we write while on the other hand a person new to homebuilding would be completely lost. First things first. Lets get to writing and sort that out later. Will we be able to use Eaglegators test flight manual for a final chapter? Also when writing about the many different ways to do something (such as the canopy) maybe we should label them as options not approved by RR but successfully used by builders. This could include everything from a canopy like mine to making the fuselage wider. -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims KR290S (Sky Pig) ,..Building ailerons and sanding the wings... mailto:mikemims@home.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Aliso Viejo Ca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: KR Online manual From: "Mark Langford" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:34:03 -0600 X-Message-Number: 26 Why don't we just forget it! We can't do "this" because of liability. We can't do "that" because we don't really know how to build until we're flying. Sorry I brought it up! Get to work on your manual Mims...and I'll keep adding to my web page like I have been. Some day I too will know how to build a KR, and maybe by then my web page will stand alone as a manual. I just thought it would be nice to have one NOW, and not to have to do it all by myself, but then I'm gettin' kinda selfish lately. And if liability is such a concern, we should all delete our web pages TONIGHT! See ya'll... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: sealing spars From: Bruce Gomm Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:50:05 -0600 X-Message-Number: 27 Recently there was a thread about sealing the inside of the spars. I also bought a project started by somebody else and after checking I have found that my spars were not varnished or sealed in any manor inside or out. Does any body have any suggestions? The main spars are installed already and I do not really want to start over with them. I obviously can take care of the external sealing but what can I do about the insides? Thanks for any suggestions. Bruce Gomm brucegomm@sprintmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: sealing spars From: Mike Mims Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:59:44 -0800 X-Message-Number: 28 Bruce Gomm wrote: > I obviously can take care of the external sealing but what can I do about the insides? > > Thanks for any suggestions. > Use a spade bit to strategically drill 1/2 inch holes in the shear web that will allow you to get some sort of spray nozzle in there to apply some varnish. A spray tool like those used to apply lawn chemicals would work great. -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims KR290S (Sky Pig) ,..Building ailerons and sanding the wings... mailto:mikemims@home.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ Aliso Viejo Ca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: sealing spars From: "Wayne DeLisle Sr." Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:06:12 -0500 X-Message-Number: 29 At 08:50 PM 3/23/99 -0600, you wrote: >Recently there was a thread about sealing the inside of the spars. I >also bought a project started by somebody else and after checking I have >found that my spars were not varnished or sealed in any manor inside or >out. Does any body have any suggestions? The main spars are installed >already and I do not really want to start over with them. I obviously >can take care of the external sealing but what can I do about the >insides? > >Thanks for any suggestions. > >Bruce Gomm >brucegomm@sprintmail.com Hello Bruce, How about if you locate a corner of each cavity, and drill a small hole there. Then using a small funnel, pour in an ounce or so of thinned varnish and slosh the cavity, then tip it up so the excess drains out. You will need the hole in each cavity anyway to vent them. Opps, I just reread what you wrote. If the spars are already glued in, I think I would carefully saw them out then do as I suggested. Good luck, WD -------------------------------------------- Wayne DeLisle Sr. Charlotte, NC mailto:dodger@coincidental.net http://angst.webserve.net/~dodger -------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: KR Online manual From: "Gary Bunch" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:12:6 X-Message-Number: 30 On 03/23/99, ""Mark Langford" " wrote: > Why don't we just forget it! We can't do "this" because of liability. We > can't do "that" because we don't really know how to build until we're > flying. Sorry I brought it up! Yada, Yada, Yada Hi Guys (and gals) This is my first posting, but I've been out here a while reading. I've been on the edge waiting for something to get me to make the plunge to order plans for a KR. Talk of this "manual" makes it more interesting, as this would be my first attempt at building an aircraft. I'm sure many have concerns on the liability issue, so don't call it a "manual". "Manual" makes it sound as though, "THIS IS THE ONE AND ONLY WAY TO BUILD A KR", why not instead give it a title such as "The KR Builders'Diary...Thoughts and Examples of How We're Building the KR". Then, naturally, follow-up with the usual "small print". You've got a great idea, go for it. Gary ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: KR Online manual From: "caryh" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:19:54 -0500 X-Message-Number: 31 Reply to caryh@home.com Web http://members.home.net/caryh KR2 http://members.home.net/caryh/kr-2.htm -----Original Message----- From: Mike Mims To: KR-net users group Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 9:29 PM Subject: [kr-net] Re: KR Online manual : >> >> Aw. Yada yada>> - Cary - >> > >Well obviously there would have to be a mix Tongue firmly planted in left cheek here. I suspect that anyone who has been able to wade through that construction manual will also have developed bad case of eye strain, or "I" strain. Although I don't consider myself an experienced builder, despite working on the rebuild of the KR2 I like to call my own, I can find many areas for improvement in the construction instruction. (Pardon the rhyme). The RR book of works assumes many things about the builder. Clairvoyance being one of them. (Spelling?) Calls to RR were often followed by the sound of my head being bashed against the workroom wall. I did find them helpful when I was acquiring material, but technical questions, or clarifications were often as not referred to others to solve. (Must have a note saying "The buck starts here" on the wall. Can't be an easy job. Legally speaking, I agree that someone of the legal cloth should peruse the material at some point to waylay any possibility of us all meeting in courtroom 3 at the hearing. If someone were to auger in as a result of is mis-labelled torque value for the prop bolts, I would hope that Perry Mason was on our side. Best he be there from the start. By the way, I think I dropped a list of things I found while reading all of the back issues of the KR Newsletter (from day1 too!) The list was made up of tips, caveats, values and just about anything useful that I could find. Ed Newbold had it on his site for a while but I have not looked recently. If I dig it up, which I can at work, where should I put it? Now now. Be nice. :-) - Cary - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: KR Online manual From: "Rod Kelso" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:49:31 -0700 X-Message-Number: 32 Amen to Mark Langford. Lets just build and let RR worry about there problems, and junky manual. Let all of us continue looking at other KR web pages, and asking questions on the net. This manual thread has gone on to long. Rod Kelso Denver......................:o) ---------- > From: Mark Langford > To: KR-net users group > Subject: [kr-net] Re: KR Online manual > Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 7:34 PM > > Why don't we just forget it! We can't do "this" because of liability. We > can't do "that" because we don't really know how to build until we're > flying. Sorry I brought it up! Get to work on your manual Mims...and I'll > keep adding to my web page like I have been. Some day I too will know how > to build a KR, and maybe by then my web page will stand alone as a manual. > I just thought it would be nice to have one NOW, and not to have to do it > all by myself, but then I'm gettin' kinda selfish lately. And if liability > is such a concern, we should all delete our web pages TONIGHT! > > See ya'll... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rbk@orci.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: KR Online manual From: SkyHawk11@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:16:00 EST X-Message-Number: 33 seems like a lot of building time is going into the manual discission!! Remember this is a home built and leaves some room for individual expression or construction Ideas. In defence of the instructions, if a man and a 14 year old boy, and he was very involved in the construction of N808BS KR2S, can build a KR2S from these plans in 19 months, it looks like a lot of valuable time is wasted on this discussion. Most of the ones I have seen on here are changing the plans anyway so what good would a different manual do. Their not following the original anyway. PS N808BS now has 10 hours on it since FAA approved it, with only two minor problems. 1. Oil temp too high, corrected by adding an air duct fron the rear of oil cooler through engine baffle to low pressure side of cooling system, VW engine with top mounted oil cooler 2. enlarging hole in engine cowl around nose gear by about 10 percent to add to cooling worked perfect. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: manual From: Tlongcrier@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:39:53 EST X-Message-Number: 34 No. He's not a lawyer. Just has a phobia about this liability thing. How many of such suits do you know about? Lately, if ever. Go ahead with the manual. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Manual -- Q&A From: Totryroma@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:30:31 EST X-Message-Number: 35 Planely speaking, Anyone read the book Crockett's Victory Garden? The layout is just about perfect for this type manual. The base chapter is written and then ends with a question / answer type format on the topic of the chapter. This could be the most frequently asked questions on the KR-Net. Then there are optional type projects illustrated between the chapters as they relate to the main topic. This could also be variations on the main theme of the chapter. Hi, this is my first post after reading (and enjoying!) this group for just over a month. I'm building a PF303 to get me in the air after being grounded for about 30 years. When I'm back in the air I would dearly love to start the KR2S for long distance travel. I hope to start later this year. I'd volunteer to read thru old posts and articles if someone could point me in the direction to find them. It would give me an education along the way and the only thing I can think of that a neophyte could contribute to the project. Course someone with more experience might better edit my output as I could only copy other's thoughts -- until I get my feet wet. Building models I can do, but engines and design I bow to my betters. I applaud the efforts of you guys! Personal question -- I was thinking of just ordering the RR "package" as I did the PF303 and just putting together as per instructions. I do see how instructions can be vague -- now. With the last month's KR-Net reading it seems as most of you just got the RR instructions and have gotten parts here and there (including from RR). Mainly, I "see" where there is no standard KR2S. Is the "best" way to start ,,, just order the plans ... Read ... and then decide where to get materials depending on how you are going to "design" the plane from the possible options??? I'm not destitute ... but I am a Scotchman by heritage and don't mind saving a buck where I can. That's what lead me to the KR in the first place ... along with the performance. Another nagging point -- can the KR2S be built to routinely swing the wings back to store the plane in a trailer at home instead of in a hanger as I originally thought? Final note -- I like it when people put their city/state along with their names and Email address. It's fun to know where people are from on the planet. Ron Macomber ( totryroma@aol.com ) South Sioux City, NE PS. There might be a Glossary of commonly used terms and posting suggestions and websites to visit. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: 3700 RPM From: Bobby Muse Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:53:23 -0600 X-Message-Number: 36 At 04:27 PM 03/23/1999 -0800, you wrote: > >>>>> Would any of you guys know the recommended static PROP RPM required from a 90hp VW turning a 55" three blade warp drive through a planetary reduction 1.47 to 1. At this time my static prop RPM is 2500 at engine RPM 3700. What would be the best setup?>>>> > >I just recently read somewhere that one thing homebuilders overlook >during the first flight phase is it the powerplant it producing maximum >rate hp before take off. I cant remember what was recommended but that >is awfully slow RPM for a 55 inch prop. Although the engine is up to >the right HP your prop efficiency (thrust production) at that low of RPM >would be really low. Now if your prop were 75 inches long that would be >a different story. From all I have read about prop design the prop tip >velocity should be close to or at the speed of sound at maximum rated >take off HP and rpm. Good luck! > >FWIW a 55 inch prop can go close to 4500 rpm before the tips go sonic. > >Micheal Mims I don't think that you should pitch a prop for a VW engine to allow more than about 3000 to 3100 static RPM. Some pilots have stated to me that they never allow the RPM to exceed 3600 RPm on the VW engine. Personally, if I ran up MY KR/VW engine and the brakes(assumeing that I had great brakes) could not hold the KR in place, I would go fly. This is only my opinion and I'm not an expert, that's for sure. Bobby Muse mailto:bmuse@mindspring.com Wimberly, TX ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: manual From: "caryh" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:11:46 -0500 X-Message-Number: 37 I wholeheartedly agree. - Cary - Reply to caryh@home.com Web http://members.home.net/caryh KR2 http://members.home.net/caryh/kr-2.htm -----Original Message----- From: Tlongcrier@aol.com To: KR-net users group Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 11:45 PM Subject: [kr-net] Re: manual >No. He's not a lawyer. Just has a phobia about this liability thing. How >many of such suits do you know about? Lately, if ever. Go ahead with the >manual. > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: caryh@home.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Manual -- Q&A From: "caryh" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:14:46 -0500 X-Message-Number: 38 Reply to caryh@home.com Web http://members.home.net/caryh KR2 http://members.home.net/caryh/kr-2.htm Ottawa Ontario Canada -----Original Message----- From: Totryroma@aol.com > >Final note -- I like it when people put their city/state along with their >names and Email address. It's fun to know where people are from on the >planet. > Ok.Done here. - Cary - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Online manual From: "Andy" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:44:31 -0800 X-Message-Number: 39 One last Idea for the online manual: Instead of a "chapter by chapter" approach, how about a series of "builder articles" like "How I framed my fuse," or "Adapting the Dragonfly canopy." The articles could be cataloged by the specific area of the plane being worked on, and a builder could refer to that section of the webserver. This way, one could read and see pictures of the RR canopy installation that some of you have used, and compare it to an article written by someone who used the Dragonfly canopy. Or one could decide on wing tanks or a fuse tank. Also Liability would be nearly eliminated with a disclosure that states "hey, This is how I did it, but I'm not recomending that you do it this way!" Also, it could grow and change with the new ideas that come along--after all, I've learned on this site that there is more than one way to skin a KR! Andy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: On line manuals From: Allan Horne Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:48:31 -0500 X-Message-Number: 40 --------------FA38135013E88D424D6BD490 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with Andy. I like the idea of builder articles. From another 2S builder Allan Horne Calgary Ab. Ca. --------------FA38135013E88D424D6BD490 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with Andy. I like the idea of builder articles.
From another 2S builder
Allan Horne
Calgary Ab. Ca.
 
  --------------FA38135013E88D424D6BD490-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Online Manual From: "Juergen Esser" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:58:34 +0100 X-Message-Number: 41 Mark, I don=B4t know why you blame Jeanette Rand. I think she is doing a good j= ob but she is not an engineer, so she must be carefull with new ideas about = the KR-designs. Maybe that is the reason why one has to wait for an answer ab= out technical questions. I think we should offer our help to inproof the manuals. There was a talk wether there are CAD-drawings of the KR2 (S) ore not. Ma= ybe I can help you with that but it takes time. Before I start my project I w= ill redraw the plans on CAD for educational purpose on my PC. Which software = do you prefer? AutoCad or MicroStation? You can get them when they are ready. We can talk about the details not included in the plans. So far Juergen Esser, Germany --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: johnbou@timberline.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com