From: KR-net users group digest[SMTP:kr-net@telelists.com] Sent: Thursday, June 17, 1999 12:14 AM To: kr-net digest recipients Subject: kr-net digest: June 16, 1999 KR-net users group Digest for Wednesday, June 16, 1999. 1. Re: Young Eagles 2. Re: redrives and prop RPM 3. Re: redrives and prop RPM 4. Re: redrives and prop RPM 5. Re: Vortex Generators 6. Re: Vortex Generators 7. Vortex Generators 8. Re: Insurance 9. Re: test pilot 10. Re: N415RJ Progress Report 11. Re: Vortex Generators 12. Re: Cutting foam 13. Re: Cutting foam 14. Porsche engine? 15. Re: N415RJ Progress Report 16. Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? 17. Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? 18. Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? 19. Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? 20. Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? 21. Re: Porsche engine? 22. Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? 23. Questions 24. Re: Vortex Generators 25. Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? 26. RE: Vortex Generators 27. Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? 28. Re: redrives and prop RPM 29. Re: Insurance 30. RE: Vortex Generators 31. RE: Vortex Generators 32. Fw: Need to find 33. Need to find (Landing Instructions) 34. Re: Fw: Need to find 35. Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? 36. WHATS THIS????????????????????? 37. Re: Porsche engine? 38. Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? 39. Re: Insurance ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Young Eagles From: "Martin Mulvey" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 00:28:06 -0700 X-Message-Number: 1 Hi all, Not yet with a KR but we (Chapter 326) had a fantastic day. We flew about 300 kids in all. All had a ball. BRGDS, Marty ----- Original Message ----- From: John Roffey To: KR-net users group Sent: 13 June, 1999 10:51 Subject: [kr-net] Young Eagles > Glad to hear Dana flew Young Eagles on National Young Eagle Day. I'm the > Young Eagle coordinator here at chapter 979 and we had a steam bath day > for 78 kids. The temp was 93 the humidity was 100% and no one had an air > conditioned plane. > Anyone fly any Young Eagles in their KR? > John > jeroffey@tir.com > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: kr2smm@email.msn.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: redrives and prop RPM From: cobrajad jad Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 05:11:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Message-Number: 2 OK....you guys are confusing me no end....not that i'm not too hard to confuse. and as a professional rotorhead about 44 feet of prop usually seems about right...but...here goes.... you guys talk about tip speed approaching supersonic at max efficiency and max power...and i understand that...but....there is a third element of pitch in the blade that determines power, doesn't it? one has to pitch out until max engine power arrives at a point max diameter of blade equals almost mach 1 at the point one reaches max pitch in the blade capable of reaching max power from the engine at mach 1. all this assuming no weird prop shapes, etc....or...am i all wet here? jim dixon --- Tom Andersen wrote: > Mike, > You are so right about this. The other thing people > are way to concerned > with is getting the max efficiency out of the prop. > What good is getting > max efficiency if you're not getting decent speed? > Did you derive that from the prop tip speed formula? > Could you tell me what > rpm would result in 95% mach at 200mph on a 52" wood > prop at 10,000 msl? > Wasn't there a spreadsheet for this calculation > available somewhere? > -Tom > > A common thing I have found is that on a good > performing > >aircraft (certified and eXperimental) the prop tip > speed is very close > >to supersonic at max power. Usually in the 80% to > 90% mach range. With > >that in mind a 54 inch prop can turn 3700rpm which > is about 80% mach. > >Micheal Mims > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: > cobrajad@yahoo.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: redrives and prop RPM From: "Tom Andersen" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:05:52 -0400 X-Message-Number: 3 Jeff, Do you know the pitch of your prop? Mike, I think what you've been seeing is a misapplication of the 2:1 ratio redrives. A redrive ratio of 1.55 is more like what you want on a KR. You can change the ratio on some redrives. Many of the redrives available were intended for designs which require long props with lower pitch, like the Kitfox or other under 100mph aircraft. Very little redrive work has been done for small, light, 200mph airplanes simply because there are very few of them. In my mind, you could take the prop Jeff is using to get 160mph at 2500rpm from 85hp, and choose the correct redrive ratio for the Subaru EA-81, say 1.85 or so, and get that same exact prop to a higher rpm, say 3000rpm since the Subaru can put out 110hp (at 5600rpm). The way I would approach it is to determine what prop and rpm gets you the performance desired, then adjust the redrive ratio to put the peak HP at that rpm. Say, a 52 x 58 gets you 210mph true at 14,000 ft altitude at 3600rpm. Adjust the redrive ratio so that your turbocharged EA-81 at 5600rpm gives you 3600rpm at that altitude, and you come up with 1.55 as a ratio. This setup simulates the turbocharged 2180VW direct drive configuration , but at an even higher hp, so maybe more pitch can be used. -Tom >Mike, > >I've got to disagree with you on this. My C-85 turns my 60 inch prop at >2500 RPM and my KR is definately not a "110 mph KR". Before I had some >pitch taken out of the prop for high altitude climb performance, I was >getting 160 mph at 2500 rpm and 2500 feet. Now that I have had the pitch >trimmed back, it takes 2700 rpm for the same performance at that >altitude. At 1100 lbs gross weight, I don't think that is too doggy. >Normal cruise at 9500 feet trues up to just over 140 mph. That is flying >at 1150 lbs gross and down to 1065 gross at landing due to fuel burn. > >A shorter prop may not reach the peak efficiency we would all desire, but >I think the statement that "a 60 inch prop at 2500 rpm will make at 110 >mph KR" is simply untrue. > >Regards, > >Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM >mailto:jscott.pilot@juno.com >See N1213w construction and first flight at >http://www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krjeff.htm > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: tomkr2s@t-three.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: redrives and prop RPM From: Mike Mims Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 07:08:42 -0700 X-Message-Number: 4 jscott.pilot@juno.com wrote: > > A shorter prop may not reach the peak efficiency we would all desire, but > I think the statement that "a 60 inch prop at 2500 rpm will make at 110 > mph KR" is simply untrue. > Gee Jeff I cant even have fun with the re-drive guys anymore! :o) When I made that comment obviously I was exaggerating to some extent. But I still had Warp Drive prop on the brain. For some reason I just don't think those skinny little blade profiles would be that affective at such a low RPM. Seems that with the skinny blades one would need as much length as possible to make it work out. We on the other hand with our big fat wooden props get away with that kind of RPM because of all the prop blade area. Sorry for the confusion. And as always there is a chance that I am just blowing smoke and have no idea what I am talking about! :o) -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims Filling and Sanding again! http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ http://members.home.com/mikemims/ Aliso Viejo CA ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Vortex Generators From: Mike Mims Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 07:19:19 -0700 X-Message-Number: 5 Terry Adair wrote: > > Iam interested to know if anyone has used Vortex > Generators on a KR2.Art Matson made a cherokee140 go > real fast using them,and now sells them for 140s. > Any comments? What's "real fast"? We installed a vortex generator kit on a Piper Navajo and it maybe went 3 knots faster but the benefit on that particular aircraft was a lower MCA and stall speed, thus a lower landing speed at gross weight. Experimenting with them on the RAF-48 could be interesting. If I remember right the placement was pretty darn critical so I have no idea as to where you would begin as far as determining where they go with out a wind tunnel. -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims Filling and Sanding again! http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ http://members.home.com/mikemims/ Aliso Viejo CA ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Vortex Generators From: Mike Mims Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 07:27:14 -0700 X-Message-Number: 6 http://microaero.com/vortex2.html http://206.216.148.10/vortex.htm http://microaero.com/vortex.html http://www.blrvgs.com/index.htm -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims Filling and Sanding again! http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ http://members.home.com/mikemims/ Aliso Viejo CA ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Vortex Generators From: Tobin Dunham Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:10:09 PDT X-Message-Number: 7 From the quick scan I did of the websites Mike Mims provided, I would think that the VGs would help lower the stall speed. But someone mentioned making the plane faster (??). They supposedly have no effect on airflow at cruise speed. In fact, I would guess that they would only create drag. But definitely worth it for a lower stall. So who wants to be the guinea pig with VGs on a KR-2? Might be worth doing, to show the rest of us where they go and whether it's worth it. By the way, thanks for the correction on the supersonic prop issue, whoever that was that cleared it up. Toby Dunham Houston, TX _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Insurance From: Ross Youngblood Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:44:56 -0700 X-Message-Number: 8 Mike, When your emails fall in behind an AVweb flash, I just think you are part of AVweb... carries much more weight. The Mike Mims report! So, now that we are on the topic of insurance... a friend of mine just finished his Zodiac, and is trying to get insurance for his flying. I have ground only coverage now at about $380 or so a year. I'm wondering what folks are paying, and if they were able to get coverage for the first flights. Looks like it is difficult to get coverage for those first 40 hours. Comments? -- Ross Mike Mims wrote: > > Tom Andersen wrote: > > > > Here's my understanding of the process, it'll be interesting to see if it > > all passes through the collective KR mindmeld smoothly: > > > > Once an experimental aircraft receives it's airworthiness certificate, it > > has to be treated the same as a type certified aircraft when it comes to > > maintenance and repairs, meaning either an A&P is required to do the work, > > or the person with the repairman's certificate for that specific N-number is > > required to do that work. Either one needs to sign off in the logbook. > > You only need a A&P to sign off your annual inspection, period, that > all. You can do all the work and or maintenance for the life of the > airplane. You can even do major modifications but those would need to be > signed off by an inspector for a re-certification. > Now that is how it works according to the FARs but the insurance > companies tend to use this to their benefit if and when you have an > accident. If the airplane is found to be in any way shape or form > different than when it received its original airworthiness certificate > then they will use it as leverage against you and or anyone else who has > a claim. > > The whole insurance thing is kinda new for me as no one (private > individuals) has insurance where I used to fly. I had a hard time > believing I would HAVE to have it just to land at my airport. > > -- > zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz > Micheal Mims > Filling and Sanding again! > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ > http://members.home.com/mikemims/ > Aliso Viejo CA > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rossy@teleport.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: test pilot From: Ross Youngblood Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:47:12 -0700 X-Message-Number: 9 Paul, Say, if you can give me the name (via private email), I can give it to my friend who has a Zodiac. ALSO more IMPORTANT! I'm going to be in Medford this weekend to work on my 83 year old grandfathers memiors... I wonder if I could stop by and snap some photos of your bird? (Need hints as to location and a phone number to set up a time). -- Regards Ross Wolf Packs, Inc. wrote: > > I found a local test pilot to do the first flight of my re-furbished > (now tri-gear) KR2. After hearing from local EAA members about some > of his 35 prior experimental first flights I feel he's a good pilot, > but he's never flown a KR. > > Any thoughts on what I might tell him to expect other than that the > prop goes backwards (VW) and the elevator may be a tad "sensitive" ? > > Also, any KR2 flyers in northern CA, OR, or maybe NV available to give > me a ride so I can get a feel for it before flying mine? E-mail me > privately on this (P-mail?) Paul@wolfpacks.com > > Many thanks, > > Paul M. > Ashland, OR > www.wolfpacks.com/KR ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: N415RJ Progress Report From: Ross Youngblood Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:51:58 -0700 X-Message-Number: 10 Go Rick GO!!!! I know about this! I have a friend who has gone from crate to airplane in about two an a half years on a Zenair Zodiac. He phoned me this week with the "bad" news. He needs to share my hanger after he gets the DAR sign-off. And I'm still fumbling around... -- Ross EagleGator@aol.com wrote: > > After about a year and a half of no progress for the "usual reasons", the > Phantom Eagle is back in production! > > This weekend saw the fuselage bottom and right side get a layer of 1.45 oz > deck cloth applied, the left side happens tonight. The horizontal stabilizer > and elevator got more filling and sanding, and will be ready to attach to the > fuselage once the glass is cured. The rudder pedals were removed from the > floor of the cockpit and are being readied for re-installation on the lower > shelf, complete with redesigned toe brakes (still in the fabrication > process). The tail wheel was removed and the tail block reshaped to allow > better operation of the tailwheel, as well as fair the block into the > fuselage (looks REAL nice with the glass on it). > > I drew the plans for the molds for my stub wing skins last night, and will > pick up the Formica(R) later this week to build them. I reviewed some of my > collection of "neat things I might want to do with my airplane" and will > begin construction of two home-made capacitance fuel senders some time next > week. They will work very nicely as baffles in the 6 gal tanks I've devised > for each of the wing stubs. I'm sending a shopping list with a friend who's > driving over to Wicks' tomorrow, and that should keep me in supplies for the > next month or so. > > All that accomplished with about 12 hours of quality time this weekend. It > sure felt good to be building again, I highly recommend it to anyone else who > has been idle for a while. Now, just a couple of hours a night for the next > year, and I'll be flying in no time! > > Cheers, > Rick Junkin > EagleGator@aol.com > St. Charles MO > N415RJ ~35% complete and progressing rapidly! > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rossy@teleport.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Vortex Generators From: Donald Reid Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 13:51:39 -0400 X-Message-Number: 11 Tobin Dunham wrote: > > >From the quick scan I did of the websites Mike Mims provided, I would think > that the VGs would help lower the stall speed. But someone mentioned making > the plane faster (??). They supposedly have no effect on airflow at cruise > speed. Boundary layer control can make a plane faster by reducing drag. If the airfoil is forced to undergo a transition from laminar to turbulent at the correct point on a surface, it can stay attached to the surface for a longer distance. The turbulent airflow will act as a fluid airfoil, or streamline. The air flow outside of the streamline will not cross the streamline and then reach the surface. Additional flow energy is not transferred into the boundary layer and hence less energy is lost in the form of increased drag. Laminar airflow has the lowest drag, then next is turbulent, and then separated airflow has the highest. If the airflow will travel farther along the surface before reaching separation, then the drag is lower. Vortex generators are not the best way to do this, but they can. -- Don Reid Bumpass, Va. mailto:donreid@erols.com KR2XL at http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Ultralights at http://www.erols.com/donreid/usua250.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Cutting foam From: Ross Youngblood Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:55:57 -0700 X-Message-Number: 12 Oscar, I have a couple of tech counselors here at Chapter 1183 in Corvallis who might be interested in having a look. Mike Farmer is the toughest and may/may-not be a tech counselor by the time you call. However he is an A&P as well. The other two Tech Counselors have built Grand Champion homebuilts and are great people to have come out. Let me know if you are interested, and I can see if they want to arrange a visit, (I might get to ride down with them and say Hi). -- Regards Ross Oscar Zuniga wrote: > > Dana wrote: > >if you are going to be cutting lengths of foam....... > >forget using a blade and straight edge, go for the table saw. > >I know it seems like overkill but you end up with perfect cuts. > > If you have the EAA "Wood" book, one of the articles in there is about how > to use a table saw to cut your foam ribs. Basically you make a template out > of metal or something else thin and hard, along with a raised guide or fence > for the template to follow. For designs with lots of foam ribs (e.g., the > M-19) this can speed things up and the saw can follow curves pretty well. > > The same article and technique describes how to make taper cuts on spars. > Again, you have a straight edge for the raised guide or fence to follow. > > FWIW- I had my first visit from an EAA Tech Counselor over the weekend. > Ernie Moreno flew down from Independence (near Salem) with a buddy in > Ernie's Tri-Pacer and spent a few hours critiquing my project and helping > with tips. I actually got a "good workmanship" comment on the mail-in card. > I also finally did a decent-sized layup without a single air bubble or > resin-starved area. I'm using the plastic sheeting method to wet out the > piece of glass and then transfer the half-sandwich to the already-microed > area on the airplane. It works pretty good! No snagging the cloth weave > with your squeegee; the plastic lets things slide smoothly into place. I'm > learning. > > Oscar Zuniga > Medford, Oregon > website at http://www.geocities.com/Pipeline/Dropzone/5610/ > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rossy@teleport.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Cutting foam From: Ross Youngblood Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:57:44 -0700 X-Message-Number: 13 I think that any FOAM hotwiring post should include the disclamer "DONT HOTWIRE URETHANE FOAM" Cyniade gas will kill you. The blue styrofoam is OK to hotwire, but I wouldn't breathe the fumes of that either, (it doesn't kill you instantly however). -- Regards Ross Steven Eberhart wrote: > > On Tue, 15 Jun 1999, Rick Hubka wrote: > > > That hot wire band saw is such a great idea Steve. Thanks. > > I think I may take it one step further though. > > > > I built my big table 16' X 4' in 2 sections so that when I'm done the boat > > stag I could dis-assemble half, but now I'll make the second half into a > > hot wire table saw complete with a side mount tilting(45 degree) hot wire > > bow. > > > > I'll have time to think about this though. I just finished my 3rd(scraped > > the first one) boat side and will start skinning/scarfing them with 3/32 av > > plywood this weekend. > > > > I am using a powersupply from TEKOA, about $50, that is marketed to model > airplane builders. It is rather simple and uses a commercial light dimmer > in the primary circuit of a step down transformer with a suitable series > power resistor in the secondary. I have been using standard stainless > steel safety wire for the cutting wire. > > Plans are to have a hot wiring demonstration at the Gathering showing how > you can hot wire stabilizer/elevator cores. > > Steve Eberhart > ------------------------------------- > http://www.newtech.com/nlf > > One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are > easier to get. > --plagiarized from an unknown author > > All information, in any of my aircraft related correspondence, is strictly > food for thought and is in no way intended to imply that it is anything > more than ideas requiring additional, qualified, engineering analysis. > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rossy@teleport.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Porsche engine? From: EagleGator@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:15:57 EDT X-Message-Number: 14 A friend of mine picked up an engine with another project he bought and is trying to find out what it is worth. He thinks it is a Porsche Type 4, but isn't sure. The only info he has is the numbers on the case: SJ12, 004-101-101A. Does this mean anything to anyone? Thanks for your help. Please respond directly to eaglegator@aol.com. Cheers, Rick Junkin EagleGator@aol.com St. Charles MO KR-2S N415RJ 37% complete and progressing rapidly! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: N415RJ Progress Report From: "R.W. Moore" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:15:25 -0400 X-Message-Number: 15 If you wanted to put some coloring in water to help find a leak in a wing tank what would you use. Can anyone help. me. I have a KR 1, that has a leak in one of the wing tanks. or what could be used. R. W. Moore ----- Original Message ----- From: Ross Youngblood To: KR-net users group Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 1:51 PM Subject: [kr-net] Re: N415RJ Progress Report > Go Rick GO!!!! > I know about this! I have a friend who has gone from crate to > airplane in about two an a half years on a Zenair Zodiac. He phoned > me this week with the "bad" news. He needs to share my hanger after > he gets the DAR sign-off. And I'm still fumbling around... > -- Ross > > EagleGator@aol.com wrote: > > > > After about a year and a half of no progress for the "usual reasons", the > > Phantom Eagle is back in production! > > > > This weekend saw the fuselage bottom and right side get a layer of 1.45 oz > > deck cloth applied, the left side happens tonight. The horizontal stabilizer > > and elevator got more filling and sanding, and will be ready to attach to the > > fuselage once the glass is cured. The rudder pedals were removed from the > > floor of the cockpit and are being readied for re-installation on the lower > > shelf, complete with redesigned toe brakes (still in the fabrication > > process). The tail wheel was removed and the tail block reshaped to allow > > better operation of the tailwheel, as well as fair the block into the > > fuselage (looks REAL nice with the glass on it). > > > > I drew the plans for the molds for my stub wing skins last night, and will > > pick up the Formica(R) later this week to build them. I reviewed some of my > > collection of "neat things I might want to do with my airplane" and will > > begin construction of two home-made capacitance fuel senders some time next > > week. They will work very nicely as baffles in the 6 gal tanks I've devised > > for each of the wing stubs. I'm sending a shopping list with a friend who's > > driving over to Wicks' tomorrow, and that should keep me in supplies for the > > next month or so. > > > > All that accomplished with about 12 hours of quality time this weekend. It > > sure felt good to be building again, I highly recommend it to anyone else who > > has been idle for a while. Now, just a couple of hours a night for the next > > year, and I'll be flying in no time! > > > > Cheers, > > Rick Junkin > > EagleGator@aol.com > > St. Charles MO > > N415RJ ~35% complete and progressing rapidly! > > > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rossy@teleport.com > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rwmoore@alltel.net > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? From: "Rod Kelso" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:31:22 -0600 X-Message-Number: 16 What kind of a post is this. Dont you think your friend should go to a Porsche deal and ask them instead of using and waisting this space and the rest of our times reading this kind of stuff............ Is this a place where we talk airoplanes??????????????? Wake up you guys.....I need a set of spark plugs for my car, but im sure not going to ask the kr net guys what I should buy. I will go to a AUTO PARTS house for the answer.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and your friend should do the same.......:o(( ---------- > From: EagleGator@aol.com > To: KR-net users group > Subject: [kr-net] Porsche engine? > Date: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 1:15 PM > > A friend of mine picked up an engine with another project he bought and is > trying to find out what it is worth. He thinks it is a Porsche Type 4, but > isn't sure. The only info he has is the numbers on the case: SJ12, > 004-101-101A. Does this mean anything to anyone? Thanks for your help. Please > respond directly to eaglegator@aol.com. > > Cheers, > Rick Junkin > EagleGator@aol.com > St. Charles MO > KR-2S N415RJ 37% complete and progressing rapidly! > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rbk@orci.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? From: Steven Eberhart Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 18:34:50 -0500 (CDT) X-Message-Number: 17 Ok Rod, I sure hope this was in jest. Knowing Rick aka EagleGator to be one of the most disciplined people I know, I made a simple assumption that this was an aircooled type 4 engine that is being considered for aircraft use. Sounds like a simple KR type aircraft related question to me. Steve On Wed, 16 Jun 1999, Rod Kelso wrote: > What kind of a post is this. Dont you think your friend should go to a > Porsche deal and ask them instead of using and waisting this space and the > rest of our times reading this kind of stuff............ Is this a place > where we talk airoplanes??????????????? Wake up you guys.....I need a set > of spark plugs for my car, but im sure not going to ask the kr net guys > what I should buy. I will go to a AUTO PARTS house for the > answer.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and your friend should do the > same.......:o(( > > ---------- > > From: EagleGator@aol.com > > To: KR-net users group > > Subject: [kr-net] Porsche engine? > > Date: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 1:15 PM > > > > A friend of mine picked up an engine with another project he bought and > is > > trying to find out what it is worth. He thinks it is a Porsche Type 4, > but > > isn't sure. The only info he has is the numbers on the case: SJ12, > > 004-101-101A. Does this mean anything to anyone? Thanks for your help. > Please > > respond directly to eaglegator@aol.com. > > > > Cheers, > > Rick Junkin > > EagleGator@aol.com > > St. Charles MO > > KR-2S N415RJ 37% complete and progressing rapidly! > > > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rbk@orci.com > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: newtech@newtech.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > ------------------------------------- http://www.newtech.com/nlf One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are easier to get. --plagiarized from an unknown author All information, in any of my aircraft related correspondence, is strictly food for thought and is in no way intended to imply that it is anything more than ideas requiring additional, qualified, engineering analysis. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? From: "Rod Kelso" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:52:52 -0600 X-Message-Number: 18 Well EXCUSE me for sounding off, maybe I should then just click on the leave kr net button. but then I wouldnt know what kind of a PORSCH engine this friend has. ---------- > From: Steven Eberhart > To: KR-net users group > Subject: [kr-net] Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? > Date: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 5:34 PM > > > Ok Rod, I sure hope this was in jest. Knowing Rick aka EagleGator to be > one of the most disciplined people I know, I made a simple assumption that > this was an aircooled type 4 engine that is being considered for aircraft > use. Sounds like a simple KR type aircraft related question to me. > > Steve > > On Wed, 16 Jun 1999, Rod Kelso wrote: > > > What kind of a post is this. Dont you think your friend should go to a > > Porsche deal and ask them instead of using and waisting this space and the > > rest of our times reading this kind of stuff............ Is this a place > > where we talk airoplanes??????????????? Wake up you guys.....I need a set > > of spark plugs for my car, but im sure not going to ask the kr net guys > > what I should buy. I will go to a AUTO PARTS house for the > > answer.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and your friend should do the > > same.......:o(( > > > > ---------- > > > From: EagleGator@aol.com > > > To: KR-net users group > > > Subject: [kr-net] Porsche engine? > > > Date: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 1:15 PM > > > > > > A friend of mine picked up an engine with another project he bought and > > is > > > trying to find out what it is worth. He thinks it is a Porsche Type 4, > > but > > > isn't sure. The only info he has is the numbers on the case: SJ12, > > > 004-101-101A. Does this mean anything to anyone? Thanks for your help. > > Please > > > respond directly to eaglegator@aol.com. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Rick Junkin > > > EagleGator@aol.com > > > St. Charles MO > > > KR-2S N415RJ 37% complete and progressing rapidly! > > > > > > --- > > > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rbk@orci.com > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > > > > > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: newtech@newtech.com > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------- > http://www.newtech.com/nlf > > One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are > easier to get. > --plagiarized from an unknown author > > All information, in any of my aircraft related correspondence, is strictly > food for thought and is in no way intended to imply that it is anything > more than ideas requiring additional, qualified, engineering analysis. > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rbk@orci.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? From: Mike Mims Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:18:53 -0700 X-Message-Number: 19 Rod Kelso wrote: > > Well EXCUSE me for sounding off, maybe I should then just click on the > leave kr net button. > Please do!!! -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims Filling and Sanding again! http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ http://members.home.com/mikemims/ Aliso Viejo CA ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? From: "Mark Langford" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:15:44 -0500 X-Message-Number: 20 Rod Kelso wrote: > Well EXCUSE me for sounding off, maybe I should then just click on the > leave kr net button. but then I wouldnt know what kind of a PORSCH engine > this friend has. Go ahead and unsubscribe. I'll let you know how it worked out. We simply don't need this kind of hair trigger, half-cocked spouting off around here. Rick asked because he knows we're fairly high on Type 4 VW engines, which the Porsche 914 used. Apparently you didn't know that. You never know what you'll learn if you listen. I'd say you've come close to winning the all time "made an ass of myself" award on KRNet. I can only think of one guy that did you better, and I think he's long gone too. We don't miss him. See ya... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Porsche engine? From: "Mark Langford" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:19:25 -0500 X-Message-Number: 21 Rick, It's hard to tell from that number, since that looks like a VW part number, rather than an engine serial number. Maybe send us a picture? But if it looks like a VW Type 4 (big fan stuck directly to the crankshaft, and no shroud sticking up) it's a Type 4 from a 914, and good enough for our purposes. If it's a "real" Porsche, it'll be a 912 engine with the fan inside a fan shroud like on a Beetle, or it'll have 6 cylinders. If it's a 912 engine, he'll go broke buying the simplest of rebuild parts, and I'd find another home for it ASAP. VW's have far more potential than 4 cylinder Porsche engines, thanks to the aftermarket. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ----- Original Message ----- From: To: KR-net users group Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 2:15 PM Subject: [kr-net] Porsche engine? > A friend of mine picked up an engine with another project he bought and is > trying to find out what it is worth. He thinks it is a Porsche Type 4, but > isn't sure. The only info he has is the numbers on the case: SJ12, > 004-101-101A. Does this mean anything to anyone? Thanks for your help. Please > respond directly to eaglegator@aol.com. > > Cheers, > Rick Junkin > EagleGator@aol.com > St. Charles MO > KR-2S N415RJ 37% complete and progressing rapidly! > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: langford@hiwaay.net > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? From: "Parley Byington" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:25:36 -0700 X-Message-Number: 22 I agree with Steve on this one. I hope that we don't get into these power plays and start insulting people just because they ask a question. It is obvious to me that this one concerns a possible power plant for an aircraft project and therefor is legitimate to ask on this net. I have always believed that the only dumb question is the one that isn't asked. My understanding of the purpose of the kr-net is to help anyone interested in building aircraft, especially the Kr. I have seen many good ideas and many that weren't of much use. I only wished that this forum would have been available to me when I started my KR back in 1982. I would not want to be the reason for someone to not ask the question that may save someone's life or add to the discouragement of an otherwise successful builder. I use the delete key quit often while scanning the many posts, it's not that hard. Thanks Parley (N54PB) -----Original Message----- From: Steven Eberhart To: KR-net users group Date: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 4:35 PM Subject: [kr-net] Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? > >Ok Rod, I sure hope this was in jest. Knowing Rick aka EagleGator to be >one of the most disciplined people I know, I made a simple assumption that >this was an aircooled type 4 engine that is being considered for aircraft >use. Sounds like a simple KR type aircraft related question to me. > >Steve > >On Wed, 16 Jun 1999, Rod Kelso wrote: > >> What kind of a post is this. Dont you think your friend should go to a >> Porsche deal and ask them instead of using and waisting this space and the >> rest of our times reading this kind of stuff............ Is this a place >> where we talk airoplanes??????????????? Wake up you guys.....I need a set >> of spark plugs for my car, but im sure not going to ask the kr net guys >> what I should buy. I will go to a AUTO PARTS house for the >> answer.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and your friend should do the >> same.......:o(( >> >> ---------- >> > From: EagleGator@aol.com >> > To: KR-net users group >> > Subject: [kr-net] Porsche engine? >> > Date: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 1:15 PM >> > >> > A friend of mine picked up an engine with another project he bought and >> is >> > trying to find out what it is worth. He thinks it is a Porsche Type 4, >> but >> > isn't sure. The only info he has is the numbers on the case: SJ12, >> > 004-101-101A. Does this mean anything to anyone? Thanks for your help. >> Please >> > respond directly to eaglegator@aol.com. >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Rick Junkin >> > EagleGator@aol.com >> > St. Charles MO >> > KR-2S N415RJ 37% complete and progressing rapidly! >> > >> > --- >> > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rbk@orci.com >> > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com >> > >> >> --- >> You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: newtech@newtech.com >> To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com >> >> > >------------------------------------- >http://www.newtech.com/nlf > >One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are >easier to get. > --plagiarized from an unknown author > >All information, in any of my aircraft related correspondence, is strictly >food for thought and is in no way intended to imply that it is anything >more than ideas requiring additional, qualified, engineering analysis. > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: parley@anv.net >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Questions From: RFG842@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 21:01:30 EDT X-Message-Number: 23 Once again, today's posts confirm my belief that 99% of KR builders wear white hats. Please let me know where to send my check. Tnks, Bob ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Vortex Generators From: "Doug Raine" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 21:03:48 -0400 X-Message-Number: 24 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BEB83B.BA4AD440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The idea on the Cherokee in question, was to get rid of some of the significant drag in the wing root area, at high angles of attack. It also helps at cruise. I looked at the plane, at Oshkosh 3 years ago, it now has about 18" extentions on the elevator, as there is now more turbulence there. The website photo was taken prior to this change. You have to be careful doing experiments in this area. You could make the elevators ineffective at some attitudes, and or power settings, remember the air is also swirling behind the prop, so what might seem straightforward may not turn out to be. I was talking to an engineer doing the prototype Orenda engine conversion on an Otter, and they were having problems with the rudder being stalled at left full travel, only with power on. They had tufts all over the tail, and cameras to record it all. If you want to look at the Cherokee modifications the web page is http://user.mc.net/~amrd/VGNETP1A.html ---------- > From: Donald Reid > To: KR-net users group > Subject: [kr-net] Re: Vortex Generators > Date: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 1:51 PM > > Tobin Dunham wrote: > > > > >From the quick scan I did of the websites Mike Mims provided, I would think > > that the VGs would help lower the stall speed. But someone mentioned making > > the plane faster (??). They supposedly have no effect on airflow at cruise > > speed. > > Boundary layer control can make a plane faster by reducing drag. If the > airfoil is forced to undergo a transition from laminar to turbulent at > the correct point on a surface, it can stay attached to the surface for > a longer distance. The turbulent airflow will act as a fluid airfoil, > or streamline. The air flow outside of the streamline will not cross > the streamline and then reach the surface. Additional flow energy is > not transferred into the boundary layer and hence less energy is lost in > the form of increased drag. > > Laminar airflow has the lowest drag, then next is turbulent, and then > separated airflow has the highest. If the airflow will travel farther > along the surface before reaching separation, then the drag is lower. > Vortex generators are not the best way to do this, but they can. > -- > Don Reid > Bumpass, Va. mailto:donreid@erols.com > KR2XL at http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm > Ultralights at http://www.erols.com/donreid/usua250.html > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: draine@sprint.ca > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com ------=_NextPart_000_01BEB83B.BA4AD440 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The idea on the Cherokee in question, = was to get rid of some of the significant drag in the wing root area, at = high angles of attack. It also helps at cruise. I looked  at the = plane, at Oshkosh 3 years ago, it now has about 18" extentions on = the elevator, as there is now more turbulence there. The website photo = was taken prior to this change. You have to be careful doing experiments = in this area. You could make the elevators ineffective at some = attitudes, and or power settings, remember the air is also swirling = behind the prop, so what might seem straightforward may not turn out to = be. I was talking to an engineer doing the prototype Orenda engine = conversion on an Otter, and they were having problems with the rudder = being stalled at left full travel, only with power on. They had tufts = all over the tail, and cameras to record it all. If you want to look at = the Cherokee modifications the web page is = http://user.mc.net/~amrd/VGNETP1A.html =      

----------
> From: Donald Reid <donreid@erols.com>
> To: KR-net users group <kr-net@telelists.com>
> Subject: [kr-net] Re: Vortex = Generators
> Date: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 1:51 PM
> =
> Tobin Dunham wrote:
> >
> > >From the = quick scan I did of the websites Mike Mims provided, I would = think
> > that the VGs would help lower the stall speed. =  But someone mentioned making
> > the plane faster (??). =  They supposedly have no effect on airflow at cruise
> > = speed.
>
> Boundary layer control can make a plane faster = by reducing drag.  If the
> airfoil is forced to undergo a = transition from laminar to turbulent at
> the correct point on a = surface, it can stay attached to the surface for
> a longer = distance.  The turbulent airflow will act as a fluid = airfoil,
> or streamline.  The air flow outside of the = streamline will not cross
> the streamline and then reach the = surface.  Additional flow energy is
> not transferred into = the boundary layer and hence less energy is lost in
> the form of = increased drag.  
>
> Laminar airflow has the lowest = drag, then next is turbulent, and then
> separated airflow has the = highest.  If the airflow will travel farther
> along the = surface before reaching separation, then the drag is lower.
> = Vortex generators are not the best way to do this, but they can.
> = --
> Don Reid
> Bumpass, Va.   mailto:donreid@erols.com
> =         KR2XL at http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm
>   Ultralights at http://www.erols.com/donreid/usua250.html
>
> ---
> You are currently = subscribed to kr-net as: draine@sprint.ca
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com

------=_NextPart_000_01BEB83B.BA4AD440-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? From: "Tom Andersen" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 21:59:46 -0400 X-Message-Number: 25 Rod, If this was a joke, it sure is a dumb joke and a true "waist". Everyone knows the Type 4 VW makes a great KR engine. -Tom -----Original Message----- From: Rod Kelso To: KR-net users group Date: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 7:25 PM Subject: [kr-net] Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? >What kind of a post is this. Dont you think your friend should go to a >Porsche deal and ask them instead of using and waisting this space and the >rest of our times reading this kind of stuff............ Is this a place >where we talk airoplanes??????????????? Wake up you guys.....I need a set >of spark plugs for my car, but im sure not going to ask the kr net guys >what I should buy. I will go to a AUTO PARTS house for the >answer.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and your friend should do the >same.......:o(( > >---------- >> From: EagleGator@aol.com >> To: KR-net users group >> Subject: [kr-net] Porsche engine? >> Date: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 1:15 PM >> >> A friend of mine picked up an engine with another project he bought and >is >> trying to find out what it is worth. He thinks it is a Porsche Type 4, >but >> isn't sure. The only info he has is the numbers on the case: SJ12, >> 004-101-101A. Does this mean anything to anyone? Thanks for your help. >Please >> respond directly to eaglegator@aol.com. >> >> Cheers, >> Rick Junkin >> EagleGator@aol.com >> St. Charles MO >> KR-2S N415RJ 37% complete and progressing rapidly! >> >> --- >> You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rbk@orci.com >> To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com >> > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: tomkr2s@t-three.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: Vortex Generators From: "Walter Lounsbery" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 21:01:35 -0500 X-Message-Number: 26 ------ original message ------ Iam interested to know if anyone has used Vortex Generators on a KR2.Art Matson made a cherokee140 go real fast using them,and now sells them for 140s. Any comments? Terry Adair Melbourne--Australia. ------------------------------ I used to have a Cherokee 140, and I never described it as fast... If nobody has tried them before, VGs are nifty little things with lots of uses. They are like medicine, though, mainly there to cure things. If anyone has seen the Beech Starship, you know what I am saying. My prescription: Use sparingly on aerodynamic surfaces where tuft tests indicate airflow problems (separation). Walter Lounsbery POB 54266 Hurst, TX 76054 (817) 285-8520 Walt@Lounsbery.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? From: "Tom Andersen" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 22:18:12 -0400 X-Message-Number: 27 Please do leave KRnet, we're not like the internet newsgroups in here. -----Original Message----- From: Rod Kelso To: KR-net users group Date: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 7:46 PM Subject: [kr-net] Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? >Well EXCUSE me for sounding off, maybe I should then just click on the >leave kr net button. but then I wouldnt know what kind of a PORSCH engine >this friend has. > >---------- >> From: Steven Eberhart >> To: KR-net users group >> Subject: [kr-net] Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? >> Date: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 5:34 PM >> >> >> Ok Rod, I sure hope this was in jest. Knowing Rick aka EagleGator to be >> one of the most disciplined people I know, I made a simple assumption >that >> this was an aircooled type 4 engine that is being considered for aircraft >> use. Sounds like a simple KR type aircraft related question to me. >> >> Steve >> >> On Wed, 16 Jun 1999, Rod Kelso wrote: >> >> > What kind of a post is this. Dont you think your friend should go to a >> > Porsche deal and ask them instead of using and waisting this space and >the >> > rest of our times reading this kind of stuff............ Is this a >place >> > where we talk airoplanes??????????????? Wake up you guys.....I need a >set >> > of spark plugs for my car, but im sure not going to ask the kr net guys >> > what I should buy. I will go to a AUTO PARTS house for the >> > answer.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and your friend should do the >> > same.......:o(( >> > >> > ---------- >> > > From: EagleGator@aol.com >> > > To: KR-net users group >> > > Subject: [kr-net] Porsche engine? >> > > Date: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 1:15 PM >> > > >> > > A friend of mine picked up an engine with another project he bought >and >> > is >> > > trying to find out what it is worth. He thinks it is a Porsche Type >4, >> > but >> > > isn't sure. The only info he has is the numbers on the case: SJ12, >> > > 004-101-101A. Does this mean anything to anyone? Thanks for your >help. >> > Please >> > > respond directly to eaglegator@aol.com. >> > > >> > > Cheers, >> > > Rick Junkin >> > > EagleGator@aol.com >> > > St. Charles MO >> > > KR-2S N415RJ 37% complete and progressing rapidly! >> > > >> > > --- >> > > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rbk@orci.com >> > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to >leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com >> > > >> > >> > --- >> > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: newtech@newtech.com >> > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com >> > >> > >> >> ------------------------------------- >> http://www.newtech.com/nlf >> >> One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are >> easier to get. >> --plagiarized from an unknown author >> >> All information, in any of my aircraft related correspondence, is >strictly >> food for thought and is in no way intended to imply that it is anything >> more than ideas requiring additional, qualified, engineering analysis. >> >> >> --- >> You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rbk@orci.com >> To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com >> > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: tomkr2s@t-three.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: redrives and prop RPM From: jscott.pilot@juno.com Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 20:04:17 -0700 X-Message-Number: 28 On Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:05:52 -0400 "Tom Andersen" writes: >Jeff, >Do you know the pitch of your prop? Originally it was cut to 60 x 66. Now it has been cut down to somewhat less, more like 60 x 62. I liked the 60 x 66 cut best, but with my home airport above 7000', I needed better climb performance. Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM mailto:jscott.pilot@juno.com See N1213w construction and first flight at http://www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krjeff.htm ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Insurance From: jscott.pilot@juno.com Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 20:22:20 -0700 X-Message-Number: 29 On Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:44:56 -0700 Ross Youngblood writes: > So, now that we are on the topic of insurance... a friend of mine >just finished his Zodiac, and is trying to get insurance for his >flying. I have ground only coverage now at about $380 or so a year. >I'm wondering what folks are paying, and if they were able to get >coverage for the first flights. Looks like it is difficult to get >coverage for those first 40 hours. > Comments? > -- Ross > Are you talking about hull insurance or simple liability? And how much liability? I did get $1,000,000 liability for the first flight through Avemco. The first two years were at $411/year. This year it went down to $373. Your mileage may vary depending on time in similar airplanes, your total hours, and taildragger hours if your plane is a taildragger. Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM mailto:jscott.pilot@juno.com See N1213w construction and first flight at http://www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krjeff.htm ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: Vortex Generators From: EveninBrz@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 22:53:38 EDT X-Message-Number: 30 In a message dated 6/16/1999 7:17:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Walt@Lounsbery.com writes: << If anyone has seen the Beech Starship, you know what I am saying. >> I see it almost every day, haven't noticed anything strange about it. There are 2 of them at Van Nuys airport. Which one should I look at?? Larry Shull EveninBrz@aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: Vortex Generators From: boggyd@webtv.net (D Bogdan) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 22:13:32 -0500 (CDT) X-Message-Number: 31 One of the fellows at my EAA chapter (838 Racine) put them on his veri-ez, used some tape so he could move them around to find the best spot. Regards, DJ Milwaukee They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safty deserve neither... Historical Review of Pennsylvania: Benjamin Franklin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Fw: Need to find From: "garbez" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 20:48:06 -0500 X-Message-Number: 32 Dear KR-net, I am trying to find an article written by Jim Faughn on the KR flight primer. I can't seem to find it in Mark Langford's web page. If anyone knows where I can find it or other flight testing articles please advise me where to look. Thanks, Mike Garbez N998MG msgtlg@netins.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Need to find (Landing Instructions) From: Ron Lee Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 21:47:32 -0600 X-Message-Number: 33 >Dear KR-net, >I am trying to find an article written by Jim Faughn on the KR flight >primer. I can't seem to find it in Mark Langford's web page. If anyone >knows where I can find it or other flight testing articles please advise me >where to look. > >Thanks, >Mike Garbez N998MG >msgtlg@netins.net Since I am such a wonderful person, I will repost it from my archive... without permission of course. Ron Lee > After assembling and then watching the seminars > at KRKosh (97 Perry) I'm of the opinion that we need much, much more sharing > of knowledge. We end up with a stronger KR community and larger percentage > of safer built planes and a larger pool of good KR pilots. > > Steve, Jim, Bobby, etc., are some of the KRelders who have taken the time to > share knowledge and information. > Gee, in reading what I just wrote, the preceding sounds like a KROnwhine for > articles. How 'bout it folks, keep me from doing lots of these > postings...you'll feel better and KRnet will thank you. > > Randy Stein > BSHADR@aol.com > Soviet Monica, CA I thought I would share the paper I wrote for landings and you might want to use it in the KROnline Newsletter as well. I get windy with this but couldn't think of a better way to present it. The "Perfect" Landing - In a KR??? After my test flight in my KR-2 I thought every landing would be as good. However, it seems that first landing was my best until I sat down to analyze each and every step before touchdown. The purpose of this article is to present the plan I use before each landing in hopes that it will help KR builders getting ready for their first flight and those having problems with consistent landings. Each phase of the landing process must be planned and executed if the successful touchdown will be made. I will try to explain each step along with the speeds and altitudes for each phase of the landing. Please keep in mind that those of us who fly experimental aircraft do not have calibrated airspeed systems and your speeds may and probably will be different. For your information, N891JF has an empty weight of 625 lbs, no flaps, I weigh 190 lbs, and typically carry 15 lbs of stuff in my baggage area. Phase 1 - Approach to the airport - The KR is a very slippery aircraft and you must plan to start slowing down before you reach the downwind leg of the airport pattern. I always try to descend to traffic pattern altitude (800 agl) and obtain a speed of 120 mph on downwind. Phase 2 - Downwind - When I have stabilized my speed on downwind, 120 mph, my RPM on the 2180 VW with a 52 X 52 prop is around 2000. This is a very comfortable speed to check all instruments, ensure the mixture is at full rich, and plan the touchdown point. Don't forget to plan for either a strong headwind or a crosswind component. If you are facing a strong crosswind, this is the time to review what you will do at touchdown. (Which wing you will have low on approach and which wheel you will land on first.) You may not have time for "thinking" later. Phase 3 - Base - The base leg will be flown at 90 to 100 mph. I use the turn to aid in decreasing speed and lower my RPM to around 1600 to 1800. During the base leg, I will descend to an altitude of approximately 500 agl. Phase 4 - Turn to final - This is one of your great opportunities to decrease altitude. I usually slip (if it is a left pattern) on this turn to decrease altitude to 300 agl as I enter the final leg. It is important that you determine your best altitudes for each of the legs and always consider safety. In other words, remember, in case of engine failure, altitude is your best asset! Phase 5 - Final - Your two most important considerations on final are altitude and speed. You can always decrease altitude with a controlled slip. (The KR slips very good.) However, it is extremely difficult to decrease speed once you have let it build up. On final I will fly at 80 mph until I reach mid final, then I will decrease to 70 mph. I will hold this speed until short final (cross the end of the runway) at which time I begin decreasing speed. Phase 6 - Float - The KR is so close to the ground that you will encounter ground effect in a VERY big way. You can and should use this to your advantage in making the "perfect" landing. Patience is a huge virtue during this phase. I will NEVER land my airplane above 60 mph. If I try, and for the first 60 hours I tried all the way up to 80 mph, I WILL bounce!!! The reason for this is very simple. When you touch the main wheels down, the tail will lower, your angle of attack will increase and you will go back up in the air. This will continue until you are at the appropriate speed. What we want to do is make the landing once rather than getting current (bounce 5 times) every time we decide to land. Remember, we had just crossed the end of the runway decreasing speed out of 70 mph. At this time I pull back the throttle all the way and try to hold my KR inches off the runway. The more I concentrate on holding it off by inches the better landing I am able to make. I will glance, VERY quickly, at the airspeed indicator until it is below 60 mph and then I will continue to pull back on the stick concentrating on NOT touching down but instead maintaining the inch or two above the runway. When the stick is approximately one half the way back, we are now somewhere between 50 and 55 mph, I will let it then settle on the runway. Then I will raise the tail to decrease the lift and allow me to see over the nose. I have seen airspeeds, solo, as low as 40 mph before I actually touch the wheels down. I will continue to apply forward pressure on the stick keeping the nose up until I am almost to the limit. Next I will allow the tail to come back to the runway and then apply full back pressure on the stick to ensure the tail wheel stays on the ground as it takes over directional control from the rudder. If you are landing in a crosswind most experts agree you should wheel land the airplane and raise the tail to ensure the mains are securely on the ground. Ensure you apply the appropriate aileron going all the way to full. These controls of aileron and elevator must be managed as you complete your landing and as you taxi. You will learn how much of a crosswind component you and your KR are capable of over time and I recommend all early flights are with a crosswind component of less than 5 kts. I have found that the crosswind component I am capable of handling is more a function of my piloting ability (practice) than the airplane. If I follow my own procedures, I will make a good landing every time. However, I seem to make exceptions when concentration lapses. For example, if I lower the nose on final I will gain speed very quickly, usually to 100+ mph, and this makes the landing more difficult unless you are very good at using slips to decrease speed. Another point that should be made is that when flying with two people I will raise the speeds on final by 5+ mph compensating for the increase in weight and stall speed. What happens if I bounce? The first thing you have to decide is how bad of a bounce is it? I put bounces into three categories. First is BAD. If this is the case or if everything just doesn't seem right your only good option is to advance the throttle to full and go around. Don't worry about your ego just do it, GO AROUND. Second is a small bounce. If you come back up 6 inches to a foot, then don't over control, just re-land the plane. The reason for the small bounce was probably that you were going too fast when you let the airplane set down. The third bounce is in-between. The recovery from an in-between bounce will depend upon your skill level with your KR. If you have only been flying for 10 hours, you should probably go around. However, as your skills improve there is another option. To recover, apply approximately half throttle, stop the oscillation, and re-land the airplane. This only works if you stay in ground effect and remember you are very close to a stall so DON'T try this unless you are comfortable with your plane, your skills and you have a long enough runway. I certainly hope the information will prove helpful as you think about test flying your KR or are trying to improve your landings. If you can visualize and plan each phase of the landing process you will be able to make "perfect" landings. I am not a flight instructor and only present the information here in hopes you will not make the same mistakes I did in my early flights. If you would like to discuss these phases prior to flying your KR then give me a call. Perhaps we can improve this narrative for others. Good Landings Jim Faughn 4323D Laclede Ave St. Louis, MO 63108 314-652-7659 Cell 573-465-8039 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Fw: Need to find From: Mike Mims Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 21:00:01 -0700 X-Message-Number: 34 garbez wrote: > > Dear KR-net, > I am trying to find an article written by Jim Faughn on the KR flight > primer. I can't seem to find it in Mark Langford's web page. If anyone > knows where I can find it or other flight testing articles please advise me > where to look. > Its on my ideas page at: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/landing.html -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims Filling and Sanding again! http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ http://members.home.com/mikemims/ Aliso Viejo CA ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? From: "Rod Kelso" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 22:13:20 -0600 X-Message-Number: 35 Good bye Mikey, or is it Mickey Mo ---------- > From: Mike Mims > To: KR-net users group > Subject: [kr-net] Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? > Date: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 6:18 PM > > Rod Kelso wrote: > > > > Well EXCUSE me for sounding off, maybe I should then just click on the > > leave kr net button. > > > > Please do!!! > > -- > zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz > Micheal Mims > Filling and Sanding again! > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ > http://members.home.com/mikemims/ > Aliso Viejo CA > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rbk@orci.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: WHATS THIS????????????????????? From: "Rod Kelso" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 22:17:40 -0600 X-Message-Number: 36 OK, sorry I ticked everyone off. You neednt worry about me upsetting this group again. BYE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Porsche engine? From: MARVIN MCCOY Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 09:11:03 -0700 X-Message-Number: 37 Rick: If it is a type 4 the exhaust will come out straight down below on the bottom of the heads. The type three and one exhaust comes off of the side or front & back' Marvin McCoy Seattle, WA. North end of Boeing field ------------ EagleGator@aol.com wrote: > > A friend of mine picked up an engine with another project he bought and is > trying to find out what it is worth. He thinks it is a Porsche Type 4, but > isn't sure. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Porsche engine? WHATS THIS??????????????? From: Mike Mims Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 21:10:00 -0700 X-Message-Number: 38 Rod Kelso wrote: > > Good bye Mikey, or is it Mickey Mo > > ---------- Come back after you count to ten dude. -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims Filling and Sanding again! http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ http://members.home.com/mikemims/ Aliso Viejo CA ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Insurance From: "w.g. kirkland" Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 00:41:29 -0400 X-Message-Number: 39 Try Avemco. If they don't cover it not likely anyone would. W.G. KIRKLAND kirkland@vianet.on.ca ---------- > From: jscott.pilot@juno.com > To: KR-net users group > Subject: [kr-net] Re: Insurance > Date: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 11:22 PM > > > > On Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:44:56 -0700 Ross Youngblood > writes: > > So, now that we are on the topic of insurance... a friend of mine > >just finished his Zodiac, and is trying to get insurance for his > >flying. I have ground only coverage now at about $380 or so a year. > >I'm wondering what folks are paying, and if they were able to get > >coverage for the first flights. Looks like it is difficult to get > >coverage for those first 40 hours. > > Comments? > > -- Ross > > > > Are you talking about hull insurance or simple liability? And how much > liability? > > I did get $1,000,000 liability for the first flight through Avemco. The > first two years were at $411/year. This year it went down to $373. Your > mileage may vary depending on time in similar airplanes, your total > hours, and taildragger hours if your plane is a taildragger. > > Jeff Scott - Los Alamos, NM > mailto:jscott.pilot@juno.com > See N1213w construction and first flight at > http://www.thuntek.net/~jeb/krjeff.htm > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: kirkland@vianet.on.ca > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: johnbou@timberline.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com