From: KR-net users group digest[SMTP:kr-net@telelists.com] Sent: Sunday, October 17, 1999 11:20 PM To: kr-net digest recipients Subject: kr-net digest: October 17, 1999 KR-net users group Digest for Sunday, October 17, 1999. 1. Signing Off 2. Re: Resins etc. (KR wings) 3. flotsam and jetsam, archives 4. Re: make vertical stab off the plane? 5. Air Compressor Requirements 6. Re: Epoxy Strength .... 7. Re: flotsam and jetsam, archives 8. Tail feathers ruffled (Was: flotsam and jetsam) 9. Re: flotsam and jetsam, archives 10. feathers ruffled 11. Chill Out--Cool Off--Stick Around 12. Re: Signing Off 13. Re: flotsam and jetsam, archives 14. Re: flotsam and jetsam, archives 15. Re: Tail feathers ruffled (Was: flotsam and jetsam) 16. Re:Mooney Tail 17. Think about it 18. RE: 2000 gathering lodging 19. Questions 20. RE: 2000 gathering lodging 21. Re: Air Compressor Requirements 22. EDITORIAL: List Departures, KRNetiquette, etc. 23. Re: flotsam and jetsam, archives 24. KR Crash? 25. Re: flotsam and jetsam, archives 26. Re: KR Crash? 27. Re: Moving Horiz. Stabilizer Design (formerly "make vertical stab off the plane?") ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Signing Off From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:24:23 EDT X-Message-Number: 1 Would someone please e-mail me privately and tell me how to subscribe to the digest and how it works. In response to a recent post, no I do not wish the KRnet was still a group of 50 minds as opposed to 450 minds. It simply means that in years past, one could ask a question without someone taking it personally and implying that I had called them an "idiot or beginner," I don't have time for that. I feel extremely qualified to respond to airfoil, horizontal stab improvements, VW engines, and a whole slew of other KR questions. I have done as much as possible on the KRnet and through my involvement in the gathering to further the KR airplane but enough is enough. Yes, I'm still pissed. Dana Overall 2000 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Resins etc. (KR wings) From: "Wayne DeLisle Sr." Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:42:05 -0400 X-Message-Number: 2 At 12:04 AM 10/17/1999 -0400, you wrote: >Friends, > >I have read many of the postings about epoxy in the last few days. In my >experience, the two most useful sources of information are the manufacturer >and an independent specialist for whom I have great respect, Steven D. Zeller >from Southbrook Technologies Inc., zeller@bellsouth.net. > >Manufacturers best know their products. I do recall several years ago West >Systems being advertised as "not for structural use in aircraft." I believe >this was primarily for liability purposes. West Systems generates most of its >revenue from boat manufacturing, which has substantially lower liability >exposure. I built a pair of W-10 wingtips for a 225mph Cassutt air racer from >blue foam and West Systems epoxy on 7725 Fiberglas. I had no fear that they >would break. But I would not make such a substitution on a structural member >of an all-composite aircraft. > >Many builders make substitutions without looking at all the issues. If you >make the skins stiff enough on a KR, the spars won't be doing the same amount >of work. It is the same analogy that you can have a wire which supports 5 lbs >in tension and a rubber band which will do the same. But side by side, they >will not support a 10 lb weight. Obviously the rubber band will not do its >share of the work until the wire has broken. > >I feel that the KR is a very forgiving design structurally. The amount of >material substitutions which have successfully flown has shown this to be >true. But builders should be aware that strengthening or stiffening any >component may make it a load path. > >If you have a specific question about epoxy systems, e-mail Steve. He earns >his living on his epoxy advice. Please think out your question carefully and >do your homework. He's a nice guy, and very generous with his time, so I try >and use as little of it as possible. > >Thanks >William William, Thanks for your clear well reasoned post. That is exactly what I was trying to say. Anytime you change anything from the original design, you have to know what to expect. In the Case of the KR wing design, the RFP skin is not structural and it must be flexible enough to not interfere with the load carrying ability of the 2 spars. OTOH, it has to be strong enough to maintain it's shape under flying loads and stiff enough the help the spars resist twisting under aileron inputs and other stresses. One item many folks don't understand is the 3/32" outer plywood rib. This little piece of wood does a lot to help the spars resist wing stresses. For the stock wings, the ailerons are well designed to minimize the wing stresses. I've completely redesigned my wing with more wing area, shorter fatter ailerons located at the tips and fairly large flaps. This has been a really complicated thing, and I haven't finished it yet. It's beginning to take on the shape of a Mooney, as I learn more about how all the bits work together. (-; Anyway, I really appreciate your input and want to thank you for joining this list. BTW, I just got my hands on a complete CIS Turbo F/I system off of a 83 Volvo. Now that I have it, it looks a little big for my 2.0L Type-4 VW engine. I'm thinking maybe it will be just about the right size for a Corvair...... WD --------------------------------------------------------- Wayne DeLisle Sr. Charlotte, North Carolina USA EAA # 545644 IHA # 118 mailto:dodger@accessnode.net http://accessnode.net/~dodger --------------------------------------------------------- Project Viking "Daring to venture forward from the Dark Ages" online FAQ/manual at http://www.evansville.net/~boeing/project_viking ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: flotsam and jetsam, archives From: "Mark Langford" Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 11:02:46 -0500 X-Message-Number: 3 I don't know what's happened in the last few weeks, but KRNet has become almost unbearable. It is now on the edge of going to the dogs...becoming a place where what little knowlege is gained is simply not worth the BS that you have to wade thru to get to it. Not just to me, but to many of the "core" group that started KRNet. How do I know? A foreign concept called "private email". We are at serious risk of losing a valuable resource to KR builders. I said I wasn't going to mention it again, but I can't help it. We really MUST cut down on the public traffic that we're generating here. A prime example is the triaxial stuff. In just two days there were 26 messages bantered about on the subject, and I dare say that no more than 5 people cared to read it. That could have gone off line almost immediately, and avoided wasting a lot of people's time, as well as hurt feelings, and nobody would have missed a thing. And now we're back on the virtues of West Systems for the umpteenth time, and what wood you can build your airframe with. What's next, wooden propeller bolt torque? Maybe "what can I use to make fuel tanks from"? Dragonfly canopies?... Whatever happened to that archived message system that somebody was going to cook up? It sure would help minimize the number of times this stuff would resurface. See http://www.a4.org/search/index.html for an outstanding example of how this can work. Go there and key in "alarm" and you'll get 569 messages that deal with every quirk and problem imaginable with your A4 alarm system. With a simliar system for KRNet, you could go there and key in "West System" or "Western Hemlock" and a whole list of hits would appear. You could then get the scoop in the privacy of your own home, without wasting everybody else's time. We could hire somebody to do this for us, if we lack the resources to do it ourselves. Our present archive system lacks a search capabiltiy, and is very disjointed. Doesn't Lyris do this for us in some form? If so, I couldn't find a link to it on KRNet.org or John's archive site. One more thing. I try not to post anything that I'm not absolutely positive about. Someone recently encouraged "throwing crazy ideas out" for everybody to comment on. Well, that's just what we DON'T need! Folks throwing out half-baked ideas for everybody to take shots at, leading to more arguments, hurt feelings, and even more wasted bandwidth. If you don't know what you're talking about, I think you should keep it to yourself. I would normally take this opportunity to point the newbies and recalcitrant offenders to the KRNetiquette page at http://www.evansville.net/~boeing/project_viking/ , KRNet's FAQ page, but nobody ever reads it anyway, so why bother... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: make vertical stab off the plane? From: "Wayne DeLisle Sr." Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 12:54:13 -0400 X-Message-Number: 4 At 10:23 PM 10/16/1999 +0000, you wrote: >I'm thinking Mooney tails were like the Cessna tails... A marketing gimmick. >It might look neat. I have no idea how it would fly though, probably OK. >You get to figure out the new spar arrangement however.... > > -- Ross Funny you should mention that. I was talking to a Mooney owner yesterday between banner setups over at the airport and he spent an hour bending my ear on how the Mooney was a superior aircraft. Once I got him talking, he didn't want to quit. It was really interesting. He claimed that the Moony tail is designed that way for better control in landing and takeoff attitudes. He says that it is much easier to fly then a swept back tail Cessna, and that the old square tail Cessnas were easier to fly then the later ones. One interesting thing is that the whole tail, including the back 3 or 4 feet of the fuselage moves up and down and side to side for trim. There are no trim tabs on the control surfaces. Pretty slick. Hmm, wonder how that could be done on a KR.......... WD --------------------------------------------------------- Wayne DeLisle Sr. Charlotte, North Carolina USA EAA # 545644 IHA # 118 mailto:dodger@accessnode.net http://accessnode.net/~dodger --------------------------------------------------------- Project Viking "Daring to venture forward from the Dark Ages" online FAQ/manual at http://www.evansville.net/~boeing/project_viking ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Air Compressor Requirements From: EagleGator@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 13:10:05 EDT X-Message-Number: 5 Greetings all, I'm at the point on my airplane where I'm ready to buy an air compressor to help speed the work process, but need some advice. All of the quality spray guns I've been considering, including most of the HVLP (high volume low pressure) guns, require from 8.5 to 11.1 CFM at 40 PSI, and some of the other air tools I'd like to have require much more. I want to get a portable air compressor that I can take to the hangar with me, but the only compressors I can find that meet the requirements of the tools I want to use are 240 volt shop units. So I've got a couple of stupid questions: 1. If I buy a 5.5 HP 26 gallon unit with 8.5 SCFM at 40 PSI, will it drive a tool that requires a higher capacity for a short period of time? In other words, is the 8.5 SCFM rating for continuous use? 2. What is everyone else using as far as compressor/paint gun combinations? Where can I look for recommendations? Tony's books weren't much help on this one. I got rear-ended on the way home from work a couple of weeks ago, and now that I've partially recovered from that I'm about to start work on fixing my car. I figured it would be good practice for painting my airplane. Thanks for the help! Cheers, Rick Junkin EagleGator@aol.com St. Charles MO KR-2S N415RJ, "The Phantom Eagle", 40% complete http://members.aol.com/eaglegator ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Epoxy Strength .... From: Laheze@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 13:53:26 EDT X-Message-Number: 6 I have heard in the past that Shell made most of the resin for epoxys used by everyone and that the hardeners were the difference. Larry Howell laheze@aol.com KR2 rebuilder, almost flyer Rockwall, Tx ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: flotsam and jetsam, archives From: Mike Mims Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 11:03:43 -0700 X-Message-Number: 7 Mark Langford wrote: > > I don't know what's happened in the last few weeks, but KRNet has become > almost unbearable. >>> Mark I tend to agree with everything you said but looking at this from a new member perspective I would begin to wonder just what the hell I am allowed to ask about on the KRNet? Agreed the Mooney tail thing is killing me but concerning the biaxial cloth, I feel it is a superior product and would work great for a KR. This is what compelled me to talk about it. Not only that there was confusion about what bi and triaxial cloth is so I wanted to get that straight. Bummer I wasted so much band-width and MY TIME to talk about something only 5 people were interested in. I don't know what the answer is but somewhere there has to be a happy medium. It seems that if someone asks a question about reshaping the tail to look like another aircraft they get scolded, likewise if they ask about using a fiberglass material that few KR builders have used. On the other hand if they talk about installing a Corvair engine which I must say is a far out of an idea as any other, there is excitement. Same thing happens when we talk about using the AS airfoil with gigantic flaps, lots of excitement there and yes its a much further departure from the plans (not really a posting criteria is it?) than using biaxial cloth or reshaping tail feathers. We all have a bad habit of pooing on peoples ideas if they are not similar to our own. That just tells me the competition on this list is way to high or some of us are just down right "Pig Headed". I would make a funny remark about that and then follow it with a smiley face but that's not allowed either. I have learned that SERIOUSNESS is a posting criteria. A few months ago I decided that I really didn't need this list any longer but I would stay on board just in case I could help someone out. I am planning on joining Dana and signing up on the archive list because I am tired of getting my chops busted by people who are considered "Gods" on this list. I don't know if you can post from the archive so I may be sending my comments about posted questions directly to the person who posted it. I think this will work out much better in the long run for me and others on the list, especially the divine members. Well I am off to the airport to work on my plane. Its the one with the engine that's too big and the spars that are loaded up because the fiberglass skin is way to stiff. I think it may be a tad over weight too. Oh well its MY airplane and its gonna be a good one. C Ya! -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims Sanding and Filling AGAIN! :o( http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/anchor/270/ http://www.evansville.net/~boeing/project_viking/ http://members.home.com/mikemims/ Aliso Viejo CA ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Tail feathers ruffled (Was: flotsam and jetsam) From: Ron Lee Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 12:27:39 -0600 X-Message-Number: 8 Time for me to scold you folks. Seems a lot of friction is going on that I seldom see. Partly it is because I DELETE many messages that do not interest me. That does not mean they should not be discussed since there will always be differing interest areas. Perhaps there should be a bit more attention to fruitful discussions and those times that a person just has to try to be humorous (like my Duct tape posting), annotate with "joke". But even in that case, while duct tape can be used as a release, others pointed out BETTER solutions. That helped me. So Dana, Mike and Mark, you folks contribute a lot, as do others, so don't leave. Ron Lee ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: flotsam and jetsam, archives From: "Mark Langford" Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 13:47:52 -0500 X-Message-Number: 9 Mike, Well I guess you told me! It's good to know that I've been promoted to God status. A few months ago I was merely a saint!. I wasn't saying that triaxial cloth had no place here. Just that it sure did seem to go on on forever, wtih very little new information added to each post, and looked a whole lot like a private conversation between just a few people. Let's try it your way. I'll stop busting people's chops. People can throw out whatever they want and they won't hear a peep outta me. Let the "new age" of enlightenment begin! I promise to keep my opinions of how KRNet should run entirely to myself. I think I'm probably due for the digest too. It's time to give up and let it go. I think I hear some huge barn door flaps calling me in the basement... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: feathers ruffled From: "Jody Wallace" Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 13:07:15 PDT X-Message-Number: 10 >From: Ron Lee >Reply-To: "KR-net users group" >To: "KR-net users group" >Subject: [kr-net] Tail feathers ruffled (Was: flotsam and jetsam) >Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 12:27:39 -0600 >So Dana, Mike and Mark, you folks contribute a lot, as do others, >so don't leave. To me, this list is one of the most valuable for homebuilt aircraft. Its boisterous, bawdy, raw, contriversial, informative, and pure. I want someone to tell me if they think I'm crazy for an idea that I've thrown out. What would be bad is if someone proposed to do something that was a sure accident...did it...died from it...and knowbody said a thing...even when they knew better. I think that the best thing about being here in American is that you can say whats on your mind, so if I'm wrong here step up to the plate and let er' fly!...you won't hurt my feelings. Jody A. Wallace P.O. Box 114 Cicero, IN 46034 (317)984-3227 jwallace@logical123.net (home) jodywallace@hotmail.com (all world) cecai@indy.net (work) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Chill Out--Cool Off--Stick Around From: Bert Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 16:26:18 -0400 X-Message-Number: 11 I have been sitting in the back ground as for as the KR net is concerned but I too have noticed a big difference Pre Gathering and Post gathering. The tone of the net has changed, the feeling of many members have moved to their sleeves and have been hurt. Seriousness has pervaded and humor has been relegated to the trash. I don't know what has happened but I sure wish it hadn't. I am a newbie as for as the KRnet is concerned and have gleaned a wealth of information from the net. I should say "gleaned" from individuals on the KRnet. I repeat "gleaned" because I too send a lot of mail to the trash but one or two good tips from a hundred or so e-mails isn't too bad as for as I am concerned. We newbies need you "old timers" and it just might be that as we progress through our projects we will be able to contribute to the advancement of the KR's also. I have tried other news groups on the net and even with the current "trouble" this is by far the very, very best group going. If any of you guys want to bite and kick please do it privately. If you think another guys ideas stink, tell him privately. I think the chinese have a saying that one should "Always let a man save face." Free and open discussion of the KR airplanes, their design, construction and flight characteristics is, as I understand it, the purpose of the KRnet. There, I have said my piece and didn't name anyone. If the shoe fits wear it. Carroll Seibert Mansfield PA carann@epix.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Signing Off From: "BillStarrs" Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:38:08 -0700 X-Message-Number: 12 Dana, Don't let some nut who does not have the manners of a pig drive you away. Bill Starrs, Prescott, AZ -----Original Message----- From: KR2616TJ@aol.com To: KR-net users group Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 6:56 AM Subject: [kr-net] Signing Off >Would someone please e-mail me privately and tell me how to subscribe to the >digest and how it works. > >In response to a recent post, no I do not wish the KRnet was still a group of >50 minds as opposed to 450 minds. It simply means that in years past, one >could ask a question without someone taking it personally and implying that I >had called them an "idiot or beginner," I don't have time for that. I feel >extremely qualified to respond to airfoil, horizontal stab improvements, VW >engines, and a whole slew of other KR questions. I have done as much as >possible on the KRnet and through my involvement in the gathering to further >the KR airplane but enough is enough. > >Yes, I'm still pissed. > >Dana Overall >2000 KR Gathering host >Richmond, KY >mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com >http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: bstarrs@cybertrails.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: flotsam and jetsam, archives From: "BillStarrs" Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:47:58 -0700 X-Message-Number: 13 Mike, It's not that complicated . All we have to do treat each other with respect. Goo luck. Bill -----Original Message----- From: Mike Mims To: KR-net users group Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 11:42 AM Subject: [kr-net] Re: flotsam and jetsam, archives >Mark Langford wrote: >> >> I don't know what's happened in the last few weeks, but KRNet has become >> almost unbearable. >>> > >Mark I tend to agree with everything you said but looking at this from a >new member perspective I would begin to wonder just what the hell I am >allowed to ask about on the KRNet? Agreed the Mooney tail thing is >killing me but concerning the biaxial cloth, I feel it is a superior >product and would work great for a KR. This is what compelled me to talk >about it. Not only that there was confusion about what bi and triaxial >cloth is so I wanted to get that straight. Bummer I wasted so much >band-width and MY TIME to talk about something only 5 people were >interested in. > >I don't know what the answer is but somewhere there has to be a happy >medium. It seems that if someone asks a question about reshaping the >tail to look like another aircraft they get scolded, likewise if they >ask about using a fiberglass material that few KR builders have used. On >the other hand if they talk about installing a Corvair engine which I >must say is a far out of an idea as any other, there is excitement. Same >thing happens when we talk about using the AS airfoil with gigantic >flaps, lots of excitement there and yes its a much further departure >from the plans (not really a posting criteria is it?) than using biaxial >cloth or reshaping tail feathers. We all have a bad habit of pooing on >peoples ideas if they are not similar to our own. That just tells me the >competition on this list is way to high or some of us are just down >right "Pig Headed". I would make a funny remark about that and then >follow it with a smiley face but that's not allowed either. I have >learned that SERIOUSNESS is a posting criteria. > >A few months ago I decided that I really didn't need this list any >longer but I would stay on board just in case I could help someone out. >I am planning on joining Dana and signing up on the archive list >because I am tired of getting my chops busted by people who are >considered "Gods" on this list. I don't know if you can post from the >archive so I may be sending my comments about posted questions directly >to the person who posted it. I think this will work out much better in >the long run for me and others on the list, especially the divine >members. > >Well I am off to the airport to work on my plane. Its the one with the >engine that's too big and the spars that are loaded up because the >fiberglass skin is way to stiff. I think it may be a tad over weight >too. Oh well its MY airplane and its gonna be a good one. C Ya! > > >-- >zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz >Micheal Mims >Sanding and Filling AGAIN! :o( >http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/anchor/270/ >http://www.evansville.net/~boeing/project_viking/ >http://members.home.com/mikemims/ >Aliso Viejo CA >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: bstarrs@cybertrails.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: flotsam and jetsam, archives From: "Wayne DeLisle Sr." Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 18:14:34 -0400 X-Message-Number: 14 At 01:47 PM 10/17/1999 -0500, you wrote: >I promise to keep my opinions of how KRNet should run entirely to myself. I >think I'm probably due for the digest too. It's time to give up and let it >go. > >I think I hear some huge barn door flaps calling me in the basement... > >Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama Before ya leave, I've got a question. How much travel should the rudder pedals have from full left to full right deflection. This kind of relates to the rudder horn dimensions as well as where on the rudder pedals you fasten the cables. WD --------------------------------------------------------- Wayne DeLisle Sr. Charlotte, North Carolina USA EAA # 545644 IHA # 118 mailto:dodger@accessnode.net http://accessnode.net/~dodger --------------------------------------------------------- Project Viking "Daring to venture forward from the Dark Ages" online FAQ/manual at http://www.evansville.net/~boeing/project_viking ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Tail feathers ruffled (Was: flotsam and jetsam) From: "Edwin Blocher" Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 17:24:37 -0500 X-Message-Number: 15 I agree with Ron. The net has been most valuable to me since I'm only starting. After I got a few good answers in the Triaxial thing I simply deleted all the rest without opening them. Most questions I respond to are off net. Most already know more about most of these subject anyway than I do. Hang in Mike, Mark and Dana. Some of us can't live without you. That's enough from me except to say that don't answer if it's already been answered. ED -----Original Message----- From: Ron Lee To: KR-net users group Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 1:28 PM Subject: [kr-net] Tail feathers ruffled (Was: flotsam and jetsam) >Time for me to scold you folks. Seems a lot of friction is going >on that I seldom see. Partly it is because I DELETE many messages >that do not interest me. > >That does not mean they should not be discussed since there will >always be differing interest areas. > >Perhaps there should be a bit more attention to fruitful discussions >and those times that a person just has to try to be humorous (like >my Duct tape posting), annotate with "joke". > >But even in that case, while duct tape can be used as a release, >others pointed out BETTER solutions. That helped me. > >So Dana, Mike and Mark, you folks contribute a lot, as do others, >so don't leave. > >Ron Lee > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: ed_blocher@email.msn.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re:Mooney Tail From: WilliamTCA@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 19:50:22 EDT X-Message-Number: 16 Mooney tails were all about product recognition. Also, note that the elevator is the same as the rudder, stab are the same vert and horz, which means lower manufacturing costs. An Aerostar light twin has the same Idea, Ted Smith was a clever designer. But these are metal planes from factories, and no time would be saved on a moldless construction homebuilt like a KR. Also note that the elevator hinge lines are no longer in line on a mooney tail. This means you need a funny little yoke to make them work together. Want another Idea to kick around? Look at the Vee tail on a Davis DA2. It has the lowest parts count of any tail I have ever seen on a light plane and it is well proven.....And you would have product recognition for sure....But stay with the plans and I think you would fly sooner....But its good to dream, question and learn. William ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Think about it From: "garbez" Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 19:44:39 -0500 X-Message-Number: 17 I want you all to leave your computers, go outside, take a deep breath, look, listen, and ask yourself if what you see and hear are any different from the people on the NET. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: 2000 gathering lodging From: "Chris Carlo" Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 17:54:05 PDT X-Message-Number: 18 When and Where is the next KR gathering? Thanks! (Just starting on a KR1) >From: Horn2004@aol.com >Reply-To: "KR-net users group" >To: "KR-net users group" >Subject: [kr-net] RE: 2000 gathering lodging >Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 21:08:18 EDT > > >In a message dated 10/15/99 10:09:59 AM, dodger@accessnode.net writes: > ><problem. Exit 65 is about15 miles from the airport, so it's not that big a >deal.>> > >I made the decision to come at the last minute - no room, no plans - went >to >Cadiz which is about 10 min from the airport and found 2 hotels with >probably >a combined 150 rooms. I think there were maybe 6 rooms taken in the hotel I >stayed in. It was cheaper than staying at the Lake Barkley Lodge. Lodging >will not be a problem. > >Steve Horn >horn2004@aol.com >Dallas, TX > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: kr1b@hotmail.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Questions From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:56:23 EDT X-Message-Number: 19 OK, this is not a KR building question but here goes. The digest does seem like the way to go, for me, after all these years on the KRnet. The way I understand it, I'll just be 2 or 3 days behind on receiving the posts. I have been on the KRnet too long and have "gleaned" (like that word) too much to abandon it totally now. Kinda like a soap opera...........once you watch it you're hooked. The only problem I have is here lately, it seem like a bunch of kids have logged on and are in the middle of a king of hill game (or is that "god" of the hill, more on that later) If you can't laugh, I don't want any part of it. That being said, my problem here lately is how quick people have jumped with both feet trying for the knockout punch when a question is asked. Sometimes I feel like people are jockeying for position. The KRnet has not been that way until here lately. I learned a long time ago that when someone asks a question, that is the most important thing they have on their mind at that moment.............you as the responder should treat it accordingly. I can't say it any plainer. If you are going to answer, are you willing to take responsibility for 450 people doing what you just proposed.............if you cannot, don't respond. I don't have a thing about questions, I do have a thing for the way they have been answered here lately. The Tri-glass thing was just the icing on the cake. The KRnet is not what it used to be and we who have been on it since the beginning understand that. A pregnancy was announced once, several births and my son's finger reattachment was announced. We have grown to the point where if everyone announced something, it would no longer be a KRnet but merely a chat room. I know I don't need that. I've had my disagreements with Mims about VW engines..........he won't put my tail on his airplane, but I won't put his on mine, Tom is planning on using a Subaru engine, I'm not............Yes, I used a different resin than Aeropoxy or West but I'm not even going to get into the research I did.................There's a thousand other things I've seen come and go on the KRnet and never once have I publicly said something was idiotic or obviously from a beginner. Everyone on this net knows more about something than anyone else, if you have a question ask it, if you know the answer, answer it. If you disagree try starting it off with "Have you thought about...........", style points do add up. And now for the lighter side. Mike, who died and made you the appointor of gods.............I thought that was a board decision. Mark, for now you are still just a saint, alas living in Langford Manor, although I really did like that "barn door" calling me thing. Flaps you say, hell those are bigger Mim's elevator. Garbez, you're moving up on the ladder..........what with that gathering volunteering and all. No flames about the "god" thing either..........it's just a joke. Watch out or that polish 152 cemetery crash joke will get told again..........although I did hear they just found the 176th. body...............under a stone of all things. Now guys, enough of this BS lets get back the KR things. Dana Overall 2000 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/hangar/7085/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: 2000 gathering lodging From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 21:03:17 EDT X-Message-Number: 20 In a message dated 10/17/99 8:54:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kr1b@hotmail.com writes: << When and Where is the next KR gathering? >> The 2000 KR Gathering will be held on Friday Sept. 22 and Saturday Sept. 23rd at Lake Barkley State Resort Park in far western KY (kinda sounds like the same post from last year doesn't it). Although the gathering officially starts on Friday, Thursday is becoming a very fun day to just hang out at the airport and leisurely watch people arrive with nothing more going on than checking out the scenery and swapping lies (pilots make up stuff???........"there was this one time............."). I will be posting the phone number of the lodge when I get, and sign, the contract. More to follow. Dana Overall 2000 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/hangar/7085/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Air Compressor Requirements From: MARVIN MCCOY Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:17:11 -0700 X-Message-Number: 21 Rick: If I had it to do over again I would have bought a compressor with higher capacity. My compressor has a 30 gal tank & a 15 amp 120 volt motor. I do not remember the horspower or the CFM. However, it will work just fine for high volume work ie spray painting and high capacity air tools, but it quickly starts slowing down and the compressor runs continuously and just about wears itself out. It is also agravating to have to wait for the tank to get pumped back up. Marvin MCCoy Seattle, WA. North end of Boeing field --------- EagleGator@aol.com wrote: > > Greetings all, > > I'm at the point on my airplane where I'm ready to buy an air compressor to > help speed the work process, but need some advice. > 1. If I buy a 5.5 HP 26 gallon unit with 8.5 SCFM at 40 PSI, will it drive a > tool that requires a higher capacity for a short period of time? In other > words, is the 8.5 SCFM rating for continuous use? > > 2. What is everyone else using as far as compressor/paint gun combinations? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: EDITORIAL: List Departures, KRNetiquette, etc. From: EagleGator@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 22:57:26 EDT X-Message-Number: 22 Wow. I once sent a private email to one of our KRNet buddies that contained a line regarding KRNet that went something like this: "If it doesn't help me build my airplane, it hinders me and must be avoided at all costs." Helping other people helps me build my airplane in many ways. However, when the cost of providing that help becomes too painful, it hinders me from building my airplane. When people spend priceless hours contributing to KRNet that they could be spending building, it doesn't take too much BS to push that cost beyond the threshold of pain. Been there. Now there are some other folks there. It's a bad place. I wrote the original KRNetiquette post and reposted it on an occassional basis, usually at the private requests of other list members. Mark then took those ideas, really developed and polished them, and he and Kim Anderson posted them on a web page for everyone to read and reread as needed. Unfortunately, the people who take the time to read such things usually aren't the people that need to. "If it doesn't help me build my airplane, it hinders me and must be avoided at all costs." Does your post help anyone? Think about it before clicking send. I can't stress the value of private email enough. I've posted some really complicated questions, worked them offline with several different people, and then posted the result of those discussions in the form of a "here's how I did it" post, which was transparent to the rest of the list. It works well. It is also the perfect way to follow up an "I wouldn't do it that way" type of polite post on the open list with the details that are of interest to the person who asked the question. If someone else wants the info, they'll ask. There are no dumb questions, it is all in how you decide to answer. All of you new guys out there, don't be afraid to ask any question you might have about anything on your airplane. There will always be someone on a list this size who is just past where you are with your project and will be happy to give you an answer. That's exactly what this list is for. Take all the answers you get, use them to form a plan, and then go for it. For those of us who have been around for a while, remember that we were all at the "West Systems or Aeropoxy, VW or Subaru" point once. Until we have a method of expediently searching the archives, threads will be repeated and the same answers and discussions will surface. This is where an appropriate subject line by the writer makes it easier for people to delete your post if it isn't of use to them. Also keep in mind that there are many different ideas on how to do things, but very few that are the only right way. The open list is not a "king of the hill" battle ground. Post your idea/opinion, don't argue it. Remember, "If it doesn't help me build my airplane, it hinders me and must be avoided at all costs." If we all take the time to quality-check our posts with this thought in mind, we'll get back to helping each other build airplanes. I hope I haven't hindered anyone's progress with this one. Cheers, Rick Junkin EagleGator@aol.com St. Charles MO KR-2S N415RJ, "The Phantom Eagle", 40% complete http://members.aol.com/eaglegator ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: flotsam and jetsam, archives From: Larry Shull Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:09:16 -0700 X-Message-Number: 23 Mike, Very well said! Also very true. Mike Mims wrote: > Mark Langford wrote: > > > > I don't know what's happened in the last few weeks, but KRNet has become > > almost unbearable. >>> > > Mark I tend to agree with everything you said but looking at this from a > new member perspective I would begin to wonder just what the hell I am > allowed to ask about on the KRNet? Agreed the Mooney tail thing is > killing me but concerning the biaxial cloth, I feel it is a superior > product and would work great for a KR. This is what compelled me to talk > about it. Not only that there was confusion about what bi and triaxial > cloth is so I wanted to get that straight. Bummer I wasted so much > band-width and MY TIME to talk about something only 5 people were > interested in. > > I don't know what the answer is but somewhere there has to be a happy > medium. It seems that if someone asks a question about reshaping the > tail to look like another aircraft they get scolded, likewise if they > ask about using a fiberglass material that few KR builders have used. On > the other hand if they talk about installing a Corvair engine which I > must say is a far out of an idea as any other, there is excitement. Same > thing happens when we talk about using the AS airfoil with gigantic > flaps, lots of excitement there and yes its a much further departure > from the plans (not really a posting criteria is it?) than using biaxial > cloth or reshaping tail feathers. We all have a bad habit of pooing on > peoples ideas if they are not similar to our own. That just tells me the > competition on this list is way to high or some of us are just down > right "Pig Headed". I would make a funny remark about that and then > follow it with a smiley face but that's not allowed either. I have > learned that SERIOUSNESS is a posting criteria. > > A few months ago I decided that I really didn't need this list any > longer but I would stay on board just in case I could help someone out. > I am planning on joining Dana and signing up on the archive list > because I am tired of getting my chops busted by people who are > considered "Gods" on this list. I don't know if you can post from the > archive so I may be sending my comments about posted questions directly > to the person who posted it. I think this will work out much better in > the long run for me and others on the list, especially the divine > members. > > Well I am off to the airport to work on my plane. Its the one with the > engine that's too big and the spars that are loaded up because the > fiberglass skin is way to stiff. I think it may be a tad over weight > too. Oh well its MY airplane and its gonna be a good one. C Ya! > > -- > zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz > Micheal Mims > Sanding and Filling AGAIN! :o( > http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/anchor/270/ > http://www.evansville.net/~boeing/project_viking/ > http://members.home.com/mikemims/ > Aliso Viejo CA > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: LarryShu@PacBell.net > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: KR Crash? From: "Mark Langford" Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 22:14:17 -0500 X-Message-Number: 24 I just heard on the local news that a small 2 place airplane crashed in Tennesse, killing Leigh Kolka, and Randall Smith. Leigh, you might remember, was the tall guy who flew in with his wife in to the Gathering in a newly purchased KR, and took Haris's room at the lodge. I'm hoping that the Randall Smith isn't the Randy Smith the KR pilot that has been flying Neil Bingham's old plane. That's all I know right now. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: flotsam and jetsam, archives From: Larry Shull Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:26:55 -0700 X-Message-Number: 25 Mark, Remember when you were new at the KR? There are other people that come behind you that are new and don't know a thing. We don't all learn at the same rate, I personally think that I'm pretty smart. Show me something 12 or thirteen times and I've got it wired! Your web page is the best thing I have seen on the KR in almost 20 years. But how long did it take you to get that far? You know the diffrence between Tri axial, bi axial, UNI, etc.... But when you started out with your KR did you know those things? It is all about learning, there are people that want to learn how to build their own engine, should they be put down because they don't know what you do? I can make a Chevy small block really sing, but building something like your web page is far beyond me, does that make me stupid? My girlfriend does web pages, but I built the computer that she uses to do it with. We all have diffrent areas of expertise, and there are no dumb questions or or dumb discussions if you are going to risk your life in the finished product. Larry Shull Mark Langford wrote: > Mike, > > Well I guess you told me! It's good to know that I've been promoted to God > status. A few months ago I was merely a saint!. I wasn't saying that > triaxial cloth had no place here. Just that it sure did seem to go on on > forever, wtih very little new information added to each post, and looked a > whole lot like a private conversation between just a few people. > > Let's try it your way. I'll stop busting people's chops. People can throw > out whatever they want and they won't hear a peep outta me. Let the "new > age" of enlightenment begin! > > I promise to keep my opinions of how KRNet should run entirely to myself. I > think I'm probably due for the digest too. It's time to give up and let it > go. > > I think I hear some huge barn door flaps calling me in the basement... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: LarryShu@PacBell.net > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: KR Crash? From: Mike Mims Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 21:18:11 -0700 X-Message-Number: 26 Mark Langford wrote: > > I just heard on the local news that a small 2 place airplane crashed in > Tennesse, killing Leigh Kolka, and Randall Smith.>>> This is terrible news. Makes you realize just how petty our little skirmishes on the KRnet really are. This really makes me sad even though I have no personal connection to either of the two people involved. Mark keep us posted on what you learn so that maybe we can avoid repeating this is possible. -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims Sanding and Filling AGAIN! :o( http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/anchor/270/ http://www.evansville.net/~boeing/project_viking/ http://members.home.com/mikemims/ Aliso Viejo CA ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Moving Horiz. Stabilizer Design (formerly "make vertical stab off the plane?") From: Michael Taglieri Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 23:58:08 -0400 X-Message-Number: 27 >I was talking to a Mooney owner yesterday between banner setups over >at the airport and he spent an hour bending my ear on how the Mooney was >a superior aircraft. Once I got him talking, he didn't want to quit. It >was really interesting. > >He claimed that the Moony tail is designed that way for better control >in landing and takeoff attitudes. He says that it is much easier to fly then >a swept back tail Cessna, and that the old square tail Cessnas were easier >to fly then the later ones. > >One interesting thing is that the whole tail, including the back 3 or 4 feet >of the fuselage moves up and down and side to side for trim. There are >no trim tabs on the control surfaces. Pretty slick. > >Hmm, wonder how that could be done on a KR.......... I've read that the vertical-tail Cessnas were faster, but never that they were easier to control. The swept tail was a styling exercise so the plane would "look faster" and it did increase sales after the new tail was introduced. Adjusting the horizontal stabilizer for trim is also done in the Piper Cub (curious that it and the Mooney both choose this method). I think it could be done on a KR, and I've thought of doing this myself. Instead of gluing the spars for the stabilizer to the fuselage, you'd hinge one of them and have a turnbuckle, screw-jack, etc. set up at the location for the other one to move the stabilizer up and down. A pulley around the middle of the turnbuckle could run a big loop of cable (or even rope) to another pulley in front, with a crank, etc. This would give you a great deal of trim and no trimtab drag. However, I'm sure the solidly-mounted stabilizers are also helping to hold the rear of the plane together, so in addition to the spars in the stabilizer itself, you'd need horizontal pieces equivalent to the original spars on the empennage (and these would be the logical places to hinge the moving spar from). To some extent this would separate the spar-flexing load from the empennage pulling-apart load, so perhaps these could be thinner than the spars that are there now, but I'm not qualified even to guess about that. Also, the turnbuckle or other screw is a piece subject to considerable wear, so it would have to be inspectable and replaceable. Mike Taglieri ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: johnbou@timberline.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-17800J@telelists.com