From: "KR-net users group digest" To: "kr-net digest recipients" Subject: kr-net digest: December 03, 1999 Date: Saturday, December 04, 1999 12:15 AM KR-net users group Digest for Friday, December 03, 1999. 1. Re: Suspension 2. Re: Suspension 3. Re: Plexiglas Questions 4. Re: Horizontal Stabilizer and other boo-boo's 5. Re: Plexiglas Questions 6. vacuum bagging and Layups for Light Weight 7. Re: vacuum bagging and Layups for Light Weight 8. Re: vacuum bagging and Layups for Light Weight 9. All Composite Lightweight KR2S 10. Re: All Composite Lightweight KR2S 11. Kr2s sold 12. Re: Plexiglas Questions 13. Re: fushlsge foam and fiberglass 14. Progress-slow 15. Re: Plexiglas Questions 16. Re: Plexiglas Questions 17. Re: Suspension 18. Re: fushlsge foam and fiberglass 19. Re: KR2S Speed -vs- Hp 20. Re: KR2S Speed -vs- Hp 21. Re: Plexiglas Questions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Suspension From: Stickandrudder@cs.com Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 06:56:42 EST X-Message-Number: 1 what flame??? i haven't contributed in a while. if you can, send me the offensive article. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Suspension From: Stickandrudder@cs.com Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 06:58:14 EST X-Message-Number: 2 ya got the wrong guy sherriff!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Plexiglas Questions From: Horn2004@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:35:04 EST X-Message-Number: 3 In a message dated 12/2/99 6:33:33 PM, N4DD@prodigy.net writes: <> If you laminated your canopy frame using T-88 or similar epoxy you probably shouldn't put it in the oven to help form your plexiglass. The T-88 manufacturer says not to subject cured T-88 to temperatures in excess of 150 degrees farenheit. If you got the oven hot enough to form the plex, you may see some rather catastrophic delamination of your canopy frame. Steve Horn horn2004@aol.com Dallas, TX ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Horizontal Stabilizer and other boo-boo's From: Mike Mims Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:58:23 -0800 (PST) X-Message-Number: 4 --- apecorar@steelcase.com wrote: > Netters, > It must have shifted during the cure process. I removed it and the 5/8" spruce block to which it attaches. > You may want to wait until you are ready to glue the foam between the ribs before actually attaching the ribs. Also you can attach those ribs with 5 minute epoxy to reduce the cure time therefor reducing the chance of it shifting. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Plexiglas Questions From: Mike Mims Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 08:09:45 -0800 (PST) X-Message-Number: 5 --- Horn2004@aol.com wrote: > If you laminated your canopy frame using T-88 or > similar epoxy you probably shouldn't put it in the oven to help form your plexiglass.>>>> For those of you who don’t want to heat up plexiglass the original KR2 canopy bubble makes great windows for gull wing canopies. All I did was cut the KR2 bubble in half and then cut off the forward portion. If you look at my website you can see there is about 18 inches between the two windows at the top. Yep that means the area at the top of my canopy is 18 inches wider than the original bubble. My windshield is flat wrap (cold) 1/8 inch plexi. My canopy is almost a 100% replica of Troy Petteways so I am sure it will work just fine. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: vacuum bagging and Layups for Light Weight From: nelsonjjjj@didactics.com Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 08:45:21 -0800 X-Message-Number: 6 It is my experience that the lightest and most high performance general method for constructing most parts is prepreg layup, vacuum bagging, and high temperature oven cure. I have not built any airplane parts yet, however. Does anyone know what is the lightest weight a dry KR2 (or KR for that matter) ever built is? Is anyone out there interested in the use of molds for layup of fuselage, wings and other parts? These can be oven cured prepreg layups that are super lightweight and very strong, with very little finishing required. James ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: vacuum bagging and Layups for Light Weight From: Willard561@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:00:33 EST X-Message-Number: 7 James: the lightest kR-2 had to have been the original @450 lbs Bill Higdon Willard561@aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: vacuum bagging and Layups for Light Weight From: Richard Selix Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 09:04:28 -0800 X-Message-Number: 8 James: Everything you propose is light weight except the ton of dollars needed to accomplish professional quality molds, not to mention the cost of prepegs and a large oven. This is not to say that a redesigned all composite KR2s wouldn't be interesting. Richard Mailto:rselix@earthlink.net nelsonjjjj@didactics.com wrote: > It is my experience that the lightest and most high performance > general method for constructing most parts is prepreg layup, > vacuum bagging, and high temperature oven cure. > > I have not built any airplane parts yet, however. > > Does anyone know what is the lightest weight a dry KR2 (or KR > for that matter) ever built is? > > Is anyone out there interested in the use of molds for layup > of fuselage, wings and other parts? These can be oven cured > prepreg layups that are super lightweight and very strong, with > very little finishing required. > > James > > ----- > Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) > The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rselix@earthlink.net > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-110995W@telelists.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: All Composite Lightweight KR2S From: nelsonjjjj@didactics.com Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:38:39 -0800 X-Message-Number: 9 >Everything you propose is light weight except the ton >of dollars needed to accomplish professional quality >molds, not to mention the cost of prepegs and a large >oven. This is not to say that a redesigned all composite >KR2s wouldn't be interesting. ------------- Most of the initial difficulty is overcoming the mental block of doing it that way (prepregs). We used to build Solar Cars the old way, until I learned. Then they became super lightweight and can be made to go 65MPH Cruise for 200 miles and no charge! I can pop out molds easy by wet layup using special epoxies, IF I have access to a plug of the part I want to make. Most of the work (IMHO) is in making the plug. I wasn't planning to do this as a business. To me, it is just the easiest way to build a structure strong and lightweight. There are ways of getting by cheap on very high quality materials! James ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: All Composite Lightweight KR2S From: RFG842@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:01:28 EST X-Message-Number: 10 James I certainly would vote for your proposal of prepegs and oven curing but there is one major obstacle. NO ONE BUILDS A KR THE SAME WAY. Even with the premolded parts available, few builders that I know of use them because they have stretched, lengthened, squashed, etc., the original framework. A lot of KR builders decry cookie cutter aircraft like the RVs and prefer to put their own touches on an airframe. KRs are great for this because of the wood and foam construction. You would probably wind up building forms for one or two aircraft. Just my opinion Bob ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Kr2s sold From: "dave tillema" Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:28:9 X-Message-Number: 11 There is now a new owner of my plane. Dan Mitchell is owner #2. So according to odds,he has a better chance of finishing it. MERRY CHRISTMAS DAN. BLUESKIES & SOFTLANDINGS, DAVE TILLEMA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Plexiglas Questions From: apecorar@steelcase.com Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:37:57 X-Message-Number: 12 On 12/03/99, "Mike Mims " wrote: > For those of you who don’t want to heat up plexiglass > the original KR2 canopy bubble makes great windows for > gull wing canopies ... > My windshield is flat wrap (cold) 1/8 inch plexi. My canopy is almost a 100% > replica of Troy Petteways so I am sure it will work > just fine. Mike, I have 2 concerns about using 1/8" plexiglas on the windshield: 1) How would a birdstrike affect a 1/8" vs a 1/4" windshield? I know 1/4" is heavier, but is the strength gain worth it? 2) How much difference is there in noise reduction between using the 1/8" vs the 1/4"? If there is not that much difference between using 1/8" instead of 1/4", then I have one less hassle to worry about! ;-) Thanks, Albert mailto:apecorar@steelcase.com P.S. - Thanks also to everyone who replied to me directly! :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: fushlsge foam and fiberglass From: apecorar@steelcase.com Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:5:34 X-Message-Number: 13 On 12/02/99, "Mike Mims " wrote: > fred smith wrote: > > > have corvair to redo for motor and need fushlage plenty strong. Plan on > putting foam in bays and putting 1 layer of 5oz mat on inside and out to > add strengh. question? > >>> > > ... I then added urethane foam and sanded > it flush with the 5/8s members the covered it with 6 oz bid. I added the > foam and glass for noise reduction, the added strength is negligible. I was at a marine supply store a few weekends ago and I was perusing the West Systems manual written by the Gougeon brothers. There was a chapter (or sections of a chapter) on how to reinforce corners, edges, joints, etc. If the 6 oz BID layer on the cockpit wall were to overlap 2" onto the cockpit floor, with a bead of stiff flox underneath the glass at the cockpit wall/floor seam, and then add another strip of 4" 6 oz BID tape (2" overlap on the wall and floor) could that be considered a structural joint? There was even a picture that showed how to do it. I thought that would be a great idea to use inside the KR cockpit, even where the center spars meet the floor and sides. Any comments? ... Thanks, Albert mailto:apecorar@steelcase.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Progress-slow From: "Edwin Blocher" Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:03:25 -0600 X-Message-Number: 14 I have stayed quiet lately but being Friday I would like to urge anyone who hasen't joined SAA yet to do so. Again in 2000 there will be no dues. Download an application and check out the web site at http://www.sportaviation.org. For those who have joined the fall issue of TO FLY is in the mail. My write up of our '99 Gathering is on page 37. Today I am preping some plywood for glueing Sunday. It's been slow for several weeks due to a lot of little things and the holliday. My wife and I spent a couple of days at Lake Barkley Lodge last week. After seeing the place she has decided to save her pennies and go with me next year. The ramp at the airport sure did look deserted. Ed Ed Blocher Moody, AL mailto:ed_blocher@msn.com Check out all the latest on my home page. http://homepages.msn.com/Terminus/edsKR/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Plexiglas Questions From: Mike Mims Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:07:51 -0800 (PST) X-Message-Number: 15 --- apecorar@steelcase.com wrote: > 1) How would a birdstrike affect a 1/8" vs a 1/4" > windshield? I know 1/4" is heavier, but is the strength gain worth it? > Obviously the 1/4 inch would be better at this kind of protection. Any bird that is large enough to make it through the prop is gonna make it through the windshield too (1/4 inch or...). Not to mention your prop is gonna shatter so you would have a lot of problems to work out in a very short time. Do you run into birds a lot where you fly? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Plexiglas Questions From: "JEAN" Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 19:36:39 -0600 X-Message-Number: 16 We did not heat the entire frame. We made male molds of the desired shape of plywood and 10 ga. sheet metal covered them with pool table felt Walmart felt will leave the weave pattern permanently embedded in your windshield ) . Heated the Plexiglass in an oven and then laid it over the male mold. This must be done with the protective paper removed. It helps to cover it with a thick blanket to let it cool slowly. Jean N4DD ----- Original Message ----- From: To: KR-net users group Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 9:35 AM Subject: [kr-net] Re: Plexiglas Questions > > In a message dated 12/2/99 6:33:33 PM, N4DD@prodigy.net writes: > > <> > > If you laminated your canopy frame using T-88 or similar epoxy you probably > shouldn't put it in the oven to help form your plexiglass. The T-88 > manufacturer says not to subject cured T-88 to temperatures in excess of 150 > degrees farenheit. If you got the oven hot enough to form the plex, you may > see some rather catastrophic delamination of your canopy frame. > > Steve Horn > horn2004@aol.com > Dallas, TX > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: N4DD@prodigy.net > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-110995W@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Suspension From: "Ross R. Youngblood" Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 19:12:11 +0000 X-Message-Number: 17 Check the FROM: line, if it was from kr-net@telelists.com you were "copied" on the email I sent to the bad guy. You are innocent. -- Sherriff Stickandrudder@cs.com wrote: > ya got the wrong guy sherriff!!! > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rossy@teleport.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-110995W@telelists.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: fushlsge foam and fiberglass From: Laheze@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:50:11 EST X-Message-Number: 18 Robert, Yes that system would be a structural plus and make the KR stronger and weigh more. Do we need that is the question. If you prefer a little more strength and are not worried about the additional weight then do it. Larry Howell laheze@aol.com KR2 rebuilder, almost flyer Rockwall, Tx ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: KR2S Speed -vs- Hp From: "Parley T. Byington" Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 22:04:25 -0800 X-Message-Number: 19 Mike My Kr2 routinely cruises at 160 mph and I have a 1835 turboed vw. My top speed achieved straight and level was 185 mph IAS @ 40" mp and 4000 rpm on a 52X48 Aymar-Demuth prop. Hope this info is of use to someone Parley (N54PB) parley@anv.net Mike Mims wrote: > James Nelson wrote: > > > > Can people comment on the Horsepower and engine requirements to attain the > > specs on the KR page: > > > > 200 MPH top speed, 180 MPH cruising speed? > > > > Can this be attained with anything like the 60 Hp VW engine? > > > > They (Rand Robinson) refer to 200 mph as "top speed" but what it really > means is VNE. Very few KRs fly 200 mph straight and level. Actually very > few fly 180 mph straight and level. The ones that I have seen obtain > this speed were running a 100hp O-200 Continental. Roy Marshs KR2 with a > 80 hp Revmaster Turbo would do 180mph but he also had a faster airfoil > (23012). There may be a VW powered KR out there somewhere that does 200 > mph but 155 to 160 is more like it. Heck the 2180 VW powered KR2S are > cruising around 140 mph. If you think your gonna cruise at 180 to 200 > mph on a VW you might want to re-think! :o) > > By the way the two KR2s at my airport cruise about 135 to 145 mph and > they have 2180s installed. > > -- > zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz > Micheal Mims > Sanding and Filling AGAIN! :o( > http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/anchor/270/ > mirror @ > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ > http://members.home.com/mikemims/ > Aliso Viejo CA > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: parley@anv.net > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-110995W@telelists.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: KR2S Speed -vs- Hp From: Mike Mims Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 22:40:58 -0800 X-Message-Number: 20 "Parley T. Byington" wrote: > > Mike > > My Kr2 routinely cruises at 160 mph and I have a 1835 turboed vw. My top speed > achieved straight and level was 185 mph IAS @ 40" mp and 4000 rpm on a 52X48 > Aymar-Demuth prop. Yep, like I said it takes about 100 hp to go that fast. A 1835 cc engine turning 4000 rpm and boosted to 40 inches of manifold pressure is just over 95 hp. I asked Dan Diehl at a gathering once what engine was his favorite of all the ones he had tried in his KR2 and he said by far the turbo VW was the most fun. I don't know why we don't see more of them in use. This is one of the reasons I feel the DD Turbo Subaru is probably one of the best non-cert type engines to use in a KR2S. That combination has high altitude, high TAS written all over it. -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims Sanding and Filling AGAIN! :o( http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/anchor/270/ mirror @ http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ http://members.home.com/mikemims/ Aliso Viejo CA ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Plexiglas Questions From: Michael Taglieri Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 02:05:07 -0500 X-Message-Number: 21 >Any bird that is large enough to make it >through the prop is gonna make it through the >windshield too (1/4 inch or...). Not to mention your >prop is gonna shatter so you would have a lot of >problems to work out in a very short time. Do you run >into birds a lot where you fly? Hard to believe this kind of thing could happen to anybody more than once. Mike Taglieri ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: johnbou@ipinc.net To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-110995W@telelists.com