From: "KR-net users group digest" To: "kr-net digest recipients" Subject: kr-net digest: December 05, 1999 Date: Monday, December 06, 1999 12:14 AM KR-net users group Digest for Sunday, December 05, 1999. 1. Knock, Knock 2. Re: Knock, Knock 3. Re: Plexiglas Questions 4. DF Canopy strength 5. Web page update. 6. Re: Knock, Knock 7. Unregister 8. RE: Unregister 9. Re: Speaking of nuts! 10. Re: Speaking of nuts! 11. Re: Speaking of nuts! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Knock, Knock From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 09:26:51 EST X-Message-Number: 1 Well, I just changed my members profile from digest back to the "real" thing. Nice little sabbatical from the daily dialogue but if you guys will answer the door for me, I'll come on in:-). Couple of things going on that you guys may not be aware of. I'll probably be spilling the beans here........Dr. Dean drove to Mark Langford's house over the weekend to help Mark in a lay-up. I tried to fly the Bonanza down yesterday to help but I ended up single pilot solid IFR in moderate turbulance, heavy rain and thunderstorms so I cruised on back home. You may want to start checking out Mark's webpage.......pretty cool what they did. Hint, new airfoil, carbon fiber, single lay-up, KISS to the max. Guys, Mark has made remarkable progress since he left the KRNet due to all that bickering that drove several of us off, not too long ago. About Plexiglas.........I used the RR canopy on my KR which is pretty thin. I am worried somewhat about bird strikes, they do happen. I have had two bird strikes in my flying time, one with a crow which hit the strut of a 172 and one in the Bonanza just a month or so ago, with a dove. The crow strike sound and thud was unbelievable. The dove did, in fact, come through the prop, into the cowl and the entire carcass planted itself against the oil cooler. The oil temps did go up. When we start talking about 1/8" canopies, that's pretty thin. My Bonanza has a 3/8" windshield and I cruise at 155 knots which translates to 178 mph.........pretty close to what we try and shoot for with the bigger engines in a KR. Just food for thought. Dana Overall 2000 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Knock, Knock From: Mark Jones Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 09:26:54 -0600 X-Message-Number: 2 KR2616TJ@aol.com wrote: > Well, I just changed my members profile from digest back to the "real" thing. Dana, Glad to see you back!!! Sure hope others will follow suite. Are there any updates on the 2000 Gathering? Can we book rooms yet? Mark Jones (N886MJ) Waukesha, WI mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com http://sites.netscape.net/flykr2s/homepage ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Plexiglas Questions From: "w.g. kirkland" Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 11:07:40 -0500 X-Message-Number: 3 iF YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT bird strikes try lexan for the windscreen but use plexiglass for the canopy. Lexan is very resistant to impact damage but if used in the canopy would be difficult to shatter in an emergency. W.G. KIRKLAND kirkland@vianet.on.ca ---------- > From: apecorar@steelcase.com > To: KR-net users group > Subject: [kr-net] Re: Plexiglas Questions > Date: Saturday, December 04, 1999 2:27 AM > > On 12/03/99, "Michael Taglieri " wrote: > > >Any bird that is large enough to make it > > >through the prop is gonna make it through the > > >windshield too (1/4 inch or...). Not to mention your > > >prop is gonna shatter so you would have a lot of > > >problems to work out in a very short time. Do you run > > >into birds a lot where you fly? > > > > Hard to believe this kind of thing could happen to anybody more than > > once. > > > > Mike Taglieri > > I fly mostly out of Detroit City Airport, but I have also flown from > Windsor, Ontario, Canada. Generally, I am close to the shores of the Great > Lakes area - I have done a bit of "formation flying" with sea gulls on > certain occasions! ;-) > > Also, there were a few times where crows presented a problem. I recall one > Saturday afternoon when I was practicing takeoffs/landings flying dual with > my CFI out of Detroit City that there were crows all over the airfield. On > several takeoffs and landings they flew right in front of me. I have never > smacked into a bird but I came pretty close on more than one occasion. We > had to call tower and ask them to send some people onto the airfield to > scare them away. It was funny watching the guys drive around in circles > honking their horns to get the birds to fly away. After a few minutes they > dispersed and settled in an area away from the airfield. > > Another time I recall doing my solo X-country from Detroit City north to > Bad Axe (in the "thumb" of Michigan) in the autumn. Lots of crows and > seagulls in the air. > > So, to answer the original question - "Do I run into birds a lot where I > fly?" - I encounter a lot of birds where I fly. That is why I brought up > the question about plexiglas thickness. I meant it in all honesty. :-) > > Thank-you gentlemen, > > Albert Pecoraro > mailto:apecorar@steelcase.com > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: kirkland@vianet.on.ca > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-110995W@telelists.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: DF Canopy strength From: "Rick Hubka" Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 10:26:40 -0700 X-Message-Number: 4 With all this talk of bird strikes and canopy strength... I have a few DF canopy thoughts followed by a question. My Dragon Fly canopy (new from the KRNet group purchase.) sits over in the corner of my garage covered in a blanket waiting for me to decide what installation configuration I am going to use with it. The Dragon Fly canopy is 1/8 thick but it is not a blown canopy. It is injection molded and therefore the finished product is still a true 1/8 and should be stronger than blown/stretched 1/8 Plexiglas. This injection mold process is how the DF canopy achieves it's very low (less drag) profile which should tend to deflect birds better than the RR canopy or any blown canopy. It's flexibility has also allowed me to widen my fuselage pilot area by 4". If I cut the DF canopy in 2 or 3 pieces and build my canopy frame with carbon fiber and go either 3 piece gull wing or 2 piece slide back, am I adding substantial strength to the front in the event of bird strike or would it have the same strength as if I left it a one piece rear lift. Also would one of you KRNet members who are on the DF mailing list post a question to that group RE: DF bird strikes & DF canopy strength. I think all us DF canopy heads would appreciate this kind of info. After making and installing about 200 gussets I am now getting ready to build my spars for the new airfoil. Ever closer to the golden moment when I can sit in it with a beer and make airplane noises while looking at my 66 Corvair motor which sits on the floor. Thanks... Rick Hubka Email: rick@hubka.com Web Site: www.hubka.com Calgary, Alberta, Canada ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Web page update. From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 13:51:23 EST X-Message-Number: 5 Mark Langford has updated his webpage to show the work he did this weekend with Dr. Dean. For those of you new guys who don't know Mark, he is definitely one of the more knowledgeable aeronautical people we have had on this net. A good example of this is the 5th. picture down..............those are some flaps. And for goodness sakes folks, increase the size of those hortizonal stabs (Couldn't help myself, had to throw that in). To answer the question about the 2000 Gathering, the parks department has no sent me the contract yet. We need to hold off making reservations until they do, it should be sometime in January. Don't worry, I have even more rooms booked for this year along with the convention room, on site, for the banquet. Sounds to me like there are going to a lot of newly flying KRs at this gathering. Dana Overall 2000 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/hangar/7085/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Knock, Knock From: RFG842@aol.com Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:48:17 EST X-Message-Number: 6 Welcome back. Need all the good advice we can get. Ten inches of snow last night and 30 degrees in my unheated garage. Back to wireing, labeling the panel and completing the engine installation for the next five months. Still have to finish the canopy, cowl, bottom of the stub wings and outer wings. I'm kind of building backwards to fit the weather and my schedule. Missed the gathering last year but hope to make it this year. Will fire up the RV and drive down. Any RV parking places at Lake Barkley?? Good to hear from you again! Bob ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Unregister From: SClay10106@aol.com Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 19:35:07 EST X-Message-Number: 7 how do i unregister from the krnet? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: Unregister From: "Capps Family" Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 19:09:54 -0600 X-Message-Number: 8 Face North, flap your arms, and squawk like a chicken. If this method fails, read the bottom lines of this email :o) Larry -----Original Message----- From: bounce-kr-net-121858@telelists.com [mailto:bounce-kr-net-121858@telelists.com]On Behalf Of SClay10106@aol.com Sent: Sunday, December 05, 1999 6:35 PM To: KR-net users group Subject: [kr-net] Unregister how do i unregister from the krnet? --- You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: capps@mediaone.net To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-110995W@telelists.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Speaking of nuts! From: apecorar@steelcase.com Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 21:33:58 X-Message-Number: 9 I feel strange replying to my own post, but this is the thread where it belongs! ;-) A few days ago I posted a list of bolts/nuts that I would need for my KR-2S. I explained how I calculated the proper AN bolt-size and dash-number. I received several private replies from some great folks on KR-Net, and someone asked, "Albert, did you include the thickness of the washers in your calculation?" Hmmm ... no I hadn't. Why? Because Albert was looking at Sheet W1 (Wing Drawing) in the KR-2S plans and was having a hard time figuring out which dash-numbers to use for the AN-3 bolts! ;-) (*** The only dash-number I saw was AN3-5A - the bolt that holds the inner and outer wings together.) Anyhow, the "washer" question prompted me to revisit the plans. I discovered that the washers were drawn in the plans, but there is no reference that explicitly tells the builder which washer to use. I know forgetting to include the washer thickness might seem like a small thing. If it seems that I am making a "big deal" about the "small things", please allow me to justify: * February 1999, Sport Aviation magazine, pp.117-119, "Craftsmanship and Attention to Details", by Gil Alexander (EAA Chapter 40) (*** I only included the highlights from the article that relate to this post): <<>> "Rarely are accidents caused by major structural failures, but by smaller systems failing, and then causing other, related failures or distractions. You do have to worry about the small things. Here are some items to look out for while you are building: #1: Follow the plans! - Keep things structurally correct, use the same number and types of rivets/bolts as the plans call out, ... #2: Check that all bolts are in place - No missing fastener problems on your plane. Double (even triple) check. Have someone else double check (another builder and/or an EAA Technical Counselor). Check that all nuts and bolts are torqued down, using the torque values in AC43-13 - note that these values might not be as high as you might think. I recommend the use of Torque-Seal to indicate tightened nuts. This is a good way to keep track which bolts and fittings are finally installed. On every final inspection I've performed, I have found at least one loose nut or fitting. #3: Check for correct length bolts - use the right dash-number. In general, there must be at least 1/32" thread showing above lock-nuts. All nuts must not "bottom out" (i.e. too many threads showing), and the usual aircraft standard is a maximum of three washers. Check for correct type of lock nuts. Use all metal lock nuts under the cowl, and don't substitute thin shear lock nuts for the thicker tension ones." <<>> I thought to myself, "How coincidental, the first three points of Gil Alexander's article make mention of nuts and bolts! That's one of the things we've been discussing lately on KR-Net!" ;-) Well, here are my own personal comments about the first three points, in order: #1: It is difficult to follow the plans if the information is missing. A fellow KR pilot replied to me and suggested I contact Rand Robinson and ask for the hardware list. Considering that the hardware list isn't included in the plans, calling RR makes 100% sense! But, shouldn't these details already be included in the plans? (Just a thought ...) #2: In this thread, someone made a comment that the final inspection on his aircraft amounted to nothing more than the DAR checking that all the correct sized nuts and bolts were in place. Taking into account Gil Alexander's last statement in #2, I have to agree with that KR-Netter's comment. Thanks for the heads up! ;-) #3: When I remeasure the parts that require bolts, I am going to include the thickness of the washers (0.063" (= 1/16") is the most common size, I think): AN960 Flat Washer - used under hex nuts to provide a smooth bearing surface and as shims to obtain the correct grip length for a bolt/nut assembly. AN970 Flat Washer - provide greater bearing area than the AN960; used on wooden structures under both the head of the bolt and the nut to prevent crushing the surface. Here is an example of how I (re)measured a bolt/nut assembly for the WAF#1 on the center forward spar (in order): 1 AN960 washer - 1/16" (0.0625) 1 WAF - 1/8" (0.125) plywood skin - 2.5mm (0.10) spar - 2 5/32" (2.15625) plywood skin - 2.5mm (0.10) 1 WAF - 1/8" (0.125) 1 AN960 washer - 1/16" (0.0625) Total length (washer to washer): (* This is more than 2 5/8" but less than 2 3/4", so I selected 2 5/8"). The AN3 bolt whose grip length is 2 5/8" is AN3-30. The nominal length of the AN3-30 is 3 1/32". This leaves 13/32" (slightly less than 7/16") for the nut (AN365-1032A), which should allow for more than the minumum 1/32" thread showing past the nut once it is applied. (*Sorry, I can't seem to find the thickness of the nut! ;-) Thanks to everyone who helped me out with this situation. You've all been a great help. Albert Pecoraro KR-2S (in the dining room for the winter!) mailto:apecorar@steelcase.com P.S. - Once again, if I made a miscalculation somewhere, please let us know! ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Speaking of nuts! From: Mike Mims Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 21:40:22 -0800 X-Message-Number: 10 apecorar@steelcase.com wrote: > > > P.S. - Once again, if I made a miscalculation somewhere, please let us > know! ;-) Your calcs look fine but I hate to be the one to tell you this, they were a waste of time! You will, just like everyone before you end up ordering 3 times as many bolts as you need. Some slightly larger some slightly shorter. I cant tell you how many times I did the same calcs and still ended up make two more trips to AS&S to get the bolts that fit just right. -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims Sanding and Filling AGAIN! :o( http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/anchor/270/ mirror @ http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ http://members.home.com/mikemims/ Aliso Viejo CA ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Speaking of nuts! From: apecorar@steelcase.com Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 22:3:10 X-Message-Number: 11 On 12/05/99, "Mike Mims " wrote: > apecorar@steelcase.com wrote: > > > > > > P.S. - Once again, if I made a miscalculation somewhere, please let us > > know! ;-) > > > Your calcs look fine but I hate to be the one to tell you this, they > were a waste of time! You will, just like everyone before you end up > ordering 3 times as many bolts as you need. Some slightly larger some > slightly shorter. Mike, I didn't waste my time ... I had nothing else to do tonight! ;-) But seriously, I understand the point you are trying to make. There is still the possibility for a certain degree of error even when using "scientific" methods to calculate the proper AN bolt callout. Another thing you made me think of ... even if I ordered the complete bolt kit from RR, I am not guaranteed that the bolts in that package would fit where they are assigned to fit. > I cant tell you how many times I did the same calcs > and still ended up make two more trips to AS&S to get the bolts that fit > just right. > Hey, I wish I were close enough to AS&S to be able to "make a trip"! ;-) I order my parts from the Griffin, Georgia warehouse. It takes 4 days UPS. And I just made myself familiar with AS&S's Returned Merchandise Policy - all returned merchandise goes to the Corona, California warehouse. I have to find myself a local supplier! ;-) Take care, Albert Pecoraro mailto:apecorar@steelcase.com P.S. - It's 1:00am in my time zone ... I'm hitting the sack. See you guys tomrrow. ;-) --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: johnbou@ipinc.net To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-110995W@telelists.com