From: "KR-net users group digest" To: "kr-net digest recipients" Subject: kr-net digest: February 25, 2000 Date: Saturday, February 26, 2000 12:10 AM KR-NET Digest2 for Friday, February 25, 2000. 1. Smooth Prime 2. Re: Smooth Prime 3. Super fil 4. Super Fil 5. Re: Super Fil 6. Re: Super Fil 7. Re: Super fil 8. Help me buy one of these "Toys" 9. more on Smooth Prime and SuperFil... 10. Re: Help me buy one of these "Toys" 11. Re: Super Fil 12. Re: Help me buy one of these "Toys" 13. Stainless Steel Firewall sheet 14. T88 or West system 15. Re: Stainless Steel Firewall sheet 16. Progress Again!!! 17. Re: Stainless Steel Firewall sheet 18. Re: T88 or West system ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Smooth Prime From: "Dale Baldwin" Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 04:20:53 -0500 X-Message-Number: 1 Dana As for rolling smooth prime vs. spraying, is one preferred over the other? And how many coats would you think are needed. Thanks Dale Baldwin, KR-2 About ready for paint ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Smooth Prime From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 07:47:01 EST X-Message-Number: 2 In a message dated 2/25/00 4:26:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, sketch013@worldnet.att.net writes: << As for rolling smooth prime vs. spraying, is one preferred over the other? >> Rolling smooth prime is the preferred method. The reason behind this is the ability to force the material into any imperfections or pin holes. If you spray the material on, you run the likelihood that you will merely skim coat the pin hole. When you sand, you will uncover that hole. I know it sounds totally opposite of anything you have learned in the past about applying finishing material, but roll the stuff on. The number of coats is related to the quality of the surface. It will surprise you how many imperfections you have. Roll about five coats on before you sand. Do not sand between coats. Once again, I know this sounds like a lot but don't apply heavy coats. You could apply the five coats on a good 70 degree day in 3 to 4 hours easy. Let this set up overnight and then dry sand. Just like Super Fil, it turns to dust when you sand. It's really easy to sand. If you end up sanding down to resin, roll some more on, let it dry and feather it in. You have now filled pinholes, applied a primer, applied UV on a Saturday and Sunday. It is ridiculously easy to apply, and prep, for final painting. Do yourself a favor guys, Smooth Prime and Super Fil are too good to miss. I know Mike Mims tried mixing a little micro to Smooth Prime to fill larger areas, such as weave, successfully. Dana Overall 2000 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/hangar/7085/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Super fil From: RFG842@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:48:32 EST X-Message-Number: 3 Don't mean to be negative but Super fil did not work too well for me! Bought the product and the first few applications worked well but I did find it a little difficult to apply in thin layers. It did not stick well and just curled up behind the applicator. It did sand well and I was satisfied with it. Left the product and when it reached 110 degrees in my shop, liquid separated from the hardener. The manufacturer said no problem, just mix it well and it would be OK. Every subsequent application cured slowly and sanded like rubber. The manufacturer offered to replace it free (they're really nice people) but I decided to try something else. Dr Dean suggested Aeropoxy Lite. It sticks to everything like a magnet cures quickly and sands great. Only problem is that it sticks to everything, hands, applicator and anything else it gets within 10 feet of. Clean up is a chore. Still plan on trying Super prime. It is a good company. But like everything else, not everything works for all people. Bob ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Super Fil From: "Oscar Zuniga" Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:02:35 PST X-Message-Number: 4 Okay, since it's Friday, I'll echo Dana's sentiments on the Super Fil issue: it turns to dust when you sand it, quite unlike micro which jams your sandpaper hard as glass. I have found that if I didn't let the Super Fil cure completely it might make little rolls or jam the sanding block, but that's operator error and I usually fix it by waiting another couple of hours and cleaning my sanding block with a wire brush. Like someone else said, it is also not as easy to apply Super Fil smoothly as micro is, but once you work with it a while and get the technique of application, the sanding part is a piece of cake. And if anybody is interested, I posted a small update to my M-19 "KR construction trainer" webpage at http://www.geocities.com/taildrags/update.html, showing my CNC-cut wing ribs. Too bad I've been so darn busy I haven't had a chance to work on the airplane very much. Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.geocities.com/taildrags/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Super Fil From: Mike Mims Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:37:09 -0800 (PST) X-Message-Number: 5 Ditto on the "no time" to work on the plane! Sucks huh? For those of you who had issues with superfil the key is MIXING! I use a piece of 3/16 hinge pin bent in the shape of a bread dough mixer in my drill. I mix up each part separately (in the cans) then mix the needed amount of each together. If you do this superfil will spread wonderfully and cure rock hard in 12 hours. Remember, superfil = MIX, MIX, and MIX some more! --- Oscar Zuniga wrote: Too bad I've been so darn busy I haven't had a chance to work on the airplane very much. ===== ........| .......-^- ....-/_____\- ...(O\__o__/O) ...[#]oxxxo[#] ---Y2K Beetle--- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Super Fil From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:37:02 EST X-Message-Number: 6 In a message dated 2/25/00 11:37:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, kr2sflyer@yahoo.com writes: << Remember, superfil = MIX, MIX, and MIX some more! >> I believe we covered this issue some time back but for everyone new to the KRNet I'll go back over it. Unlike epoxy resin, Super Fil is thicker. It has more of a peanut butter consistency. You must, and I mean must, mix this product well. If you do, it works as advertised. At last years gathering I let people come up and apply some themselves. Bob I'm not sending a flame your way, but to all out there....mix the stuff up. If it is not mixed properly, it does take longer to set up. As for the hardener separating, mine has done that before also. Just mix the stuff back together and you're on your way. It will surprise anyone who hasn't used it, just how easy it sands. Dana Overall 2000 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/hangar/7085/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Super fil From: "J.R.L. Engineering Consortium Ltd." Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:55:53 -0600 X-Message-Number: 7 To: KR-net users group Date: Friday, February 25, 2000 8:52 AM Subject: [kr-net] Super fil >Don't mean to be negative but Super fil did not work too well for me! > >Bought the product and the first few applications worked well but I did find >it a little difficult to apply in thin layers. It did not stick well and >just curled up behind the applicator. It did sand well and I was satisfied >with it. > >Left the product and when it reached 110 degrees in my shop, liquid separated >from the hardener. The manufacturer said no problem, just mix it well and >it would be OK. Every subsequent application cured slowly and sanded like >rubber. The manufacturer offered to replace it free (they're really nice >people) but I decided to try something else. > >Dr Dean suggested Aeropoxy Lite. It sticks to everything like a magnet cures >quickly and sands great. Only problem is that it sticks to everything, >hands, applicator and anything else it gets within 10 feet of. Clean up is a chore. > >Still plan on trying Super prime. It is a good company. But like everything >else, not everything works for all people. > >Bob > I've used both products and prefer Aeropoxy products they work for me the best. KRRon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Help me buy one of these "Toys" From: UncleLeon@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 19:13:43 EST X-Message-Number: 8 Hi, Guys, I want one of these toy airplanes ! Maybe a KR-2, Soneraii-2, or similar. I don't want to build it, I just want to fly it. The only other airplane I've owned was a certified airplane. Those are fairly easy to buy and feel safe about. A pre-purchase inspection by an A&P is strong assurance that the airplane is airworthy and reasonably safe. But I'm very concerned about a homebuilt. Especially the weight, CG, the control integrity, and the question of what maneuvers are safe in a non-certified airplane (considering that each one of the same model is unique). Can some of you encourage me and tell me how I may purchase one of these and still feel that I may still reach my next birthday? Thanx, Guys. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: more on Smooth Prime and SuperFil... From: "Mark Langford" Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 18:36:11 -0600 X-Message-Number: 9 Here's something I found that was posted on rec.aviation.homebuilt a while ago. I was looking for the consensus on whether or not Smooth Prime was a good substrate for polyurethane paint. I thought you guys might be interested... ---------------------------------------------------- Agree that prior to the application of any fillers, primers, etc. all grease & contaminants must be removed. You can start with soap & water. Solvents such as l. thinner or MEK will work OK to remove fine contamination. Sanding prior to SuperFil is critical, followed by a final removal of debris. Be sure there is no foam "sandwich" structure in these pieces that might have the foam dissolved by solvents. If it is solid glass, no problem. If you have "high" spots that are just resin or gel coat, then just sand them to the point where you start to get to the glass weave. Low, wrinkled spots are probably due to the finish (first against the mold) element of the part pulling away or not sticking, in which case they need to be filled. It may be difficult to tell if the resin is polyester/vinylester or epoxy. Resin-resin bonding may be a little problem, especially without good surface prep. Got to get down into all the smooth areas that are depressions. SuperFil bonds to almost anything; but as prev. posted, it is not structural and should not end up very thick (.25" is prob. max in rigid locations). Easy to apply & sand. Should work great for all your listed needs. Use a hair dryer to warm the applied mixture for smooth spreading. Use a thin "scratch" coat, immediately followed by enough troweled on to fill all the low spots so that you sand in the filler without going thru. the glass. OK to use additional applications if you have low spots. ACS or direct from Poly-Fiber are sources. P.F. also has a free booklet on how to use the stuff. Their water-based primer UV Smooth Prime goes on with a roller, filling the pinholes. Easy to sand. Contains UV inhibitor, too. Good basis for polyurethane paints. I've even pulled molds off of this primer as a final finish on a "plug". ---------------------- Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Help me buy one of these "Toys" From: larry flesner Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 19:09:30 -0600 X-Message-Number: 10 At 07:13 PM 2/25/00 EST, you wrote: >Hi, Guys, > >I want one of these toy airplanes ! >snip >Can some of you encourage me and tell me how I may purchase one of these and >still feel that I may still reach my next birthday? Thanx, Guys. ======================================================================= You might want to spend the time until your next birthday getting familar with any homebuilt design you're interested in purchasing!! I'm afraid we can't give you all the information you need here on the KR-net. We can point you in the right direction though. The first thing you will want to do is find a real KR or other model you're interested in and do some touchy, feely, set in it kind of thing. Spend as much time with the owner/pilot as they will give you. Look at the plans if possible. By all means, get more than one opinion and look at more than one airplane ,especially if it is a KR. You can start your locating here on the KR net, go to the KR net home page and check the builder list by state, go to AVWEB or LANDINGS on the net and do a search for KR aircraft. You could call Rand-Robertson to get some names also. Get started on your search and I hope you find an airplane you enjoy and get a lot of "happy hours" in the air!! P.S. Also talk to your A&P about the differences in owning a certified aircraft vs. an expermential. (and your insurance man, and your wife, your priest, your banker, etc. ) Larry Flesner KR builder, Tripacer driver, skydiver hauler ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Super Fil From: RFG842@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:18:45 EST X-Message-Number: 11 Dana No offense taken. I think it's great that all opinions can be aired without getting personal or nasty. I hope that that's what the KR Net is all about. It's the only way we all learn. Bob ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Help me buy one of these "Toys" From: "Rod Kelso" Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 18:15:33 -0500 X-Message-Number: 12 You said it. Have an A & P inspect it for airworthyness, check out the logs, and then have a test pilot fly it. Im sure they both will come up with an answer you are looking for. Good luck in your search. Rod........................ ---------- > From: UncleLeon@aol.com > To: KR-net users group > Subject: [kr-net] Help me buy one of these "Toys" > Date: Friday, February 25, 2000 7:13 PM > > Hi, Guys, > > I want one of these toy airplanes ! Maybe a KR-2, Soneraii-2, or similar. I > don't want to build it, I just want to fly it. The only other airplane I've > owned was a certified airplane. Those are fairly easy to buy and feel safe > about. A pre-purchase inspection by an A&P is strong assurance that the > airplane is airworthy and reasonably safe. But I'm very concerned about a > homebuilt. Especially the weight, CG, the control integrity, and the > question of what maneuvers are safe in a non-certified airplane (considering > that each one of the same model is unique). > > Can some of you encourage me and tell me how I may purchase one of these and > still feel that I may still reach my next birthday? > > Thanx, Guys. > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: rbk@orci.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-56035Y@telelists.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Stainless Steel Firewall sheet From: HAshraf@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:45:29 EST X-Message-Number: 13 Hi, Plans specify using 0.010" SS foil to be used for flame sheild of the firewall. All I van find is 0.016 in AS&S catalog. That thing weighs 0.67 lb per sq ft. ). Ten mil sheet will same atleast a pound. I know that good fire shield is inportant but in a wood plane with composite cowling and all low temp glue joints the extra steel will not buy much time. Is there a FAA minimum limit on the firewall steel or just the 10 mil sheet is not available? Haris Ashraf mailto:hashraf@aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: T88 or West system From: "Gaylon Fuller" Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 17:45:52 X-Message-Number: 14 Mike, to bad you can't spray on aeropoxy, man you sure could wet out some cloth that way ;o} I was more or less just compairing featherfill to micro. I've been told that if your going to use micro for filling the west system was better than areopoxy in that application due to the easier sanding. I am curious as to why T88 would be better for the wood, just for knowledge. I have no feelings to witch is better. Although it did appeal to me to buy the pumps for the west system instead of borrowing or buying one of the high dollar epoxy pumps. And it seem more cost effective to use those less expensive pumps for more than one application. I don't use the word "cheap" cause I don't want "cheap", but I want the most benefit for the least amount of money. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Stainless Steel Firewall sheet From: "Mark Langford" Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:05:03 -0600 X-Message-Number: 15 Haris wrote: > Is there a FAA minimum limit on the firewall steel or just the 10 mil sheet > is not available? Bengelis, in "Firewall Forward", says you can use .015" SS "without testing". Since we're also using Fiberfrax, you can get away with .010" which is what you get if you order your firewall stuff from RR, along with Fiberfrax. The SS isn't really even necessary with Fiberfrax from a "fireproofing" standpoint, but the stainless IS required in order to provide a measure of abrasion resistance for the Fiberfrax. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Progress Again!!! From: Mark Jones Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 21:39:42 -0600 X-Message-Number: 16 Since December 5th all I have done is completely tear down a Corvair engine and clean it in preparation for a rebuild. I have not actually done any work on the body of the plane until today. It has just been too cold. Well all the snow has now melted and when I got home from work today the temp was 57F and I am now back at it. Let me tell you that is a good feeling to see a little progress on the plane. I just finished installing the AS5046 stub wing inboard ribs. This weekend, I will continue working on the stub wings, hoping to get a significant amount done. Next will be the tail feathers, then the turtle deck and canopy. A plan and a goal!!! Told my wife I planned on kicking butt building and hoped to get it to the airport by the end of the year. That is the goal!!! My 2 1/2 year old son (Carter) was a big help tonight, he keeps telling Mommy he wants to ride in Daddy's plane. Mommy likes it when we are working on the plane 'cause she can regain her sanity, especially if the baby (Nicholas) is asleep, and I get to bond with my son. He's my co-pilot. Anyway, it sure is great to get back in the groove. -- Mark Jones (N886MJ) Waukesha, WI mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com Visit my KR-2S web site at http://sites.netscape.net/flykr2s/homepage ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Stainless Steel Firewall sheet From: Mike Mims Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 21:33:32 -0800 X-Message-Number: 17 Mark Langford wrote: > The SS isn't really even necessary with Fiberfrax from a "fireproofing" standpoint, but the stainless IS required in order to providea measure of abrasion resistance for the Fiberfrax. > I seriously considered going with aluminum sheet over the fiberfax. I went with the SS but I see no reason why you could not use aluminum sheet. And no I did not go with the SS tinfoil that RR sells, I used the .016. :o) -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims Sanding and Filling AGAIN! :o( http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/anchor/270/ mirror @ http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ http://members.home.com/mikemims/ Aliso Viejo CA ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: T88 or West system From: Mike Mims Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 21:44:06 -0800 X-Message-Number: 18 Gaylon Fuller wrote: > I am curious as to why T88 would be better for the wood, just for > knowledge. I have no feelings to witch is better. >> Mostly because of its gap filling properties and its resistance to vibration. Although West might have better penetrating properties it can not stand up to vibration as well as an epoxy designed exclusively for bonding wood. Again I am not saying you can not use it but why use resin to bond wood? Use a epoxy system for wood bonding, a resin/epoxy system for fiberglass work and micro/resin mix or Superfil for filling. Each is designed to do a specific job. T88 is great, order a small kit (its non-hazmat) and try it. Order a small West kit and wet out some glass, while your at it order a little micro and make some filler. BTW there is another can of worms that some swear by and that vynalester, personally I cant work with it because the smell makes me want to vomit, others have horror stories they might share while still others will tell you its the best thing since the KR1! -- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Micheal Mims Sanding and Filling AGAIN! :o( http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/anchor/270/ mirror @ http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4136/ http://members.home.com/mikemims/ Aliso Viejo CA ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: johnbou@ipinc.net To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-110995W@telelists.com