From: "KR-net users group digest" To: "kr-net digest recipients" Subject: kr-net digest: March 08, 2000 Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 12:04 AM KR-NET Digest2 for Wednesday, March 08, 2000. 1. Re: More Engine Questions 2. Re: More Engine Questions 3. Spruce for sale 4. Annual Inspection 5. KR-2 Gear width 6. Re: More Engine Questions 7. Re: More Engine Questions 8. Re: More Engine Questions 9. Re: More Engine Questions 10. Re: kr-net digest: March 07, 2000 11. Re: Annual Inspection 12. Re: More Engine Questions 13. Re: More Engine Questions 14. Re: More Engine Questions 15. Re: More Engine Questions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: More Engine Questions From: "Mark Langford" Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 07:00:14 -0600 X-Message-Number: 1 Dan Villeneuve wrote: > This all also brings me to another question. I have noticed the max speed > of the KR-2S is 200mph, can the VW push it to that speed? Is that the max > speed of the air-frame or the engine. If it is the air-frame and the VW > can push it to that, why is everyone talking about going with the Corvair? > Well, thats enough for now, thanks for any information ahead of time. At the risk of alienating the VW fans (of which, I AM one) the big difference in Corvair and VW is going to be reliablity and power. Even after all the boring and stroking is done, you're going to get maybe 85 HP out of the VW, and you'll have to run it pretty hard to do it. The 1600cc engine that it's derived from was originally about 50 HP, and now you've almost doubled what you're asking from it, and on a continuous basis, so longevity will certainly suffer. The engine case doesn't usually last more a few hundred hours due to internal cracking (oil pressure loss) or pounding out of the main bearing saddles. On the other hand, the Corvair that we start with is rated at 110 HP as it came from the factory, and this exact same bottom end was also used in the 180 HP version, so it can obviously take it. And we're only asking it to produce 110 HP for us. That's a much larger margin than you get with the VW. The result is an aircraft conversion that is just about bulletproof. For example, line-boring a Corvair is virtually unheard of, because the main bearing saddles don't pound themselves out. Broken crankshafts are another thing that you won't hear of when speaking of the Corvair, unlike the VW. And the Corvair crank can be had for practically free. That fancy E4340 VW crank was $600 last time I checked. There are several other factors, like 6 cylinders rather than 4, that increase safety with the Corvair. For a little more reading check out http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair.html and http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kvw.html . Having said all of this, if you WANTED to cruise at 199 MPH with the KR2S, the Corvair would certainly allow you to do this effortlessly. IF the VW would let you do it (and it would almost have to be turbocharged and running at the hairy edge) it wouldn't last long. Personally I feel like my plane will allow me to safely go faster than 200 MPH, since my ailerons are fastened directly to the aft spar (rather than to the wing skin) and my elevator spars are 50% taller, elevator's balanced, etc. Only careful flight testing will tell the tale, but I plan to use my Corvair to the fullest. I think Marty Roberts and many others would testify that the stock KR2 can handle speeds greater than 200 MPH, repeatedly. He runs an O-200... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: More Engine Questions From: "BillStarrs" Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 15:42:58 -0700 X-Message-Number: 2 It is not only the HP that governs the speed . It is how you fly it. You can a great deal better performance if you get used to flying " on the step" That is if you have a plane with a 4 degree angle of incidence , you fly what appears .to be 4 degrees degrees below the horizon. Try it, You won't loose altitude. -----Original Message----- From: Mark Langford To: KR-net users group Date: Wednesday, March 08, 2000 3:26 PM Subject: [kr-net] Re: More Engine Questions >Dan Villeneuve wrote: > >> This all also brings me to another question. I have noticed the max speed >> of the KR-2S is 200mph, can the VW push it to that speed? Is that the max >> speed of the air-frame or the engine. If it is the air-frame and the VW >> can push it to that, why is everyone talking about going with the Corvair? >> Well, thats enough for now, thanks for any information ahead of time. > >At the risk of alienating the VW fans (of which, I AM one) the big >difference in Corvair and VW is going to be reliablity and power. Even >after all the boring and stroking is done, you're going to get maybe 85 HP >out of the VW, and you'll have to run it pretty hard to do it. The 1600cc >engine that it's derived from was originally about 50 HP, and now you've >almost doubled what you're asking from it, and on a continuous basis, so >longevity will certainly suffer. The engine case doesn't usually last more >a few hundred hours due to internal cracking (oil pressure loss) or pounding >out of the main bearing saddles. > >On the other hand, the Corvair that we start with is rated at 110 HP as it >came from the factory, and this exact same bottom end was also used in the >180 HP version, so it can obviously take it. And we're only asking it to >produce 110 HP for us. That's a much larger margin than you get with the >VW. The result is an aircraft conversion that is just about bulletproof. >For example, line-boring a Corvair is virtually unheard of, because the main >bearing saddles don't pound themselves out. Broken crankshafts are another >thing that you won't hear of when speaking of the Corvair, unlike the VW. >And the Corvair crank can be had for practically free. That fancy E4340 VW >crank was $600 last time I checked. There are several other factors, like 6 >cylinders rather than 4, that increase safety with the Corvair. For a >little more reading check out http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair.html >and http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kvw.html . > >Having said all of this, if you WANTED to cruise at 199 MPH with the KR2S, >the Corvair would certainly allow you to do this effortlessly. IF the VW >would let you do it (and it would almost have to be turbocharged and running >at the hairy edge) it wouldn't last long. > >Personally I feel like my plane will allow me to safely go faster than 200 >MPH, since my ailerons are fastened directly to the aft spar (rather than to >the wing skin) and my elevator spars are 50% taller, elevator's balanced, >etc. Only careful flight testing will tell the tale, but I plan to use my >Corvair to the fullest. I think Marty Roberts and many others would testify >that the stock KR2 can handle speeds greater than 200 MPH, repeatedly. He >runs an O-200... > >Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama >mailto:langford@hiwaay.net >see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: bstarrs@cybertrails.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-103503G@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Spruce for sale From: Steven Eberhart Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 11:59:31 -0600 (CST) X-Message-Number: 3 I know it isn't open line Friday Friday but maybe I can get a pass on this one. I have 3 pieces of Sitka Spruce, purchased from Wicks, that are taking up space and doing no one any good. They are 5/8" x 3 1/4" x 7' Purchase price from Wicks was $102.48 plus UPS shipping. Best offer gets them. All of the wood in my BX-2 Cherry is Douglass Fir which I can get locally. Please reply off net. DO NOT ARCHIVE Steve Eberhart Evansville, Indiana mailto:newtech@newtech.com THE WING FLIES! - http://www.newtech.com/nlf for info on the new, flight tested, KRnet/UIUC airfoils. Good job KRnet, you can be proud of your contribution to Sport Aviation. Special thanks to Dr. Ashok Gopalarathnam and Dr. Michael Selig for some great Sport Aviation airfoils. One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are easier to get. --plagiarized from an unknown author All information, in any of my aircraft related correspondence, is strictly food for thought requiring additional, qualified, engineering analysis. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Annual Inspection From: AviationMech@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:30:00 EST X-Message-Number: 4 I have been in the process of changing the engine in N110LR for the past two years. Since I'm near the end of the project, I'm also accomplishing an annual inspection. Among all the usual things like filters brake shoes and the like. I found that the Stationary Brake Shoe has cracked at one of the bolt holes. My brake system is from a company called Rosenhaun. This company I believe sold out or somehow got aquired by MATCO. If you are using either of these 5'" systems, be sure to inspect the stationary shoe as well as the brake pads during your inspections. My brakes have been on my KR for at lease 300 hours. I also have a web page you can view at http://members.aol.com/aviationmech Orma Aviationmech@aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: KR-2 Gear width From: E J Spencer Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 17:01:49 -0600 X-Message-Number: 5 Please I need help. I need to know the measurement from the outside to outside of the main wheels and from the center of the mains to the center of the tail wheel. The KR-2 was built in the mid 70's. Standard gear. Thanks in advance . Joe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: More Engine Questions From: "Jon Sinon" Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 15:22:19 -0800 X-Message-Number: 6 I'm really curious how boring and stroking a T4, turbocharging it and running it at 2400 rpm is stressing it. I think you should be able to build a very solid engine with respectable performance and not risk anyone's health using a VW engine. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Langford To: KR-net users group Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2000 5:00 AM Subject: [kr-net] Re: More Engine Questions > Dan Villeneuve wrote: > > > This all also brings me to another question. I have noticed the max speed > > of the KR-2S is 200mph, can the VW push it to that speed? Is that the max > > speed of the air-frame or the engine. If it is the air-frame and the VW > > can push it to that, why is everyone talking about going with the Corvair? > > Well, thats enough for now, thanks for any information ahead of time. > > At the risk of alienating the VW fans (of which, I AM one) the big > difference in Corvair and VW is going to be reliablity and power. Even > after all the boring and stroking is done, you're going to get maybe 85 HP > out of the VW, and you'll have to run it pretty hard to do it. The 1600cc > engine that it's derived from was originally about 50 HP, and now you've > almost doubled what you're asking from it, and on a continuous basis, so > longevity will certainly suffer. The engine case doesn't usually last more > a few hundred hours due to internal cracking (oil pressure loss) or pounding > out of the main bearing saddles. > > On the other hand, the Corvair that we start with is rated at 110 HP as it > came from the factory, and this exact same bottom end was also used in the > 180 HP version, so it can obviously take it. And we're only asking it to > produce 110 HP for us. That's a much larger margin than you get with the > VW. The result is an aircraft conversion that is just about bulletproof. > For example, line-boring a Corvair is virtually unheard of, because the main > bearing saddles don't pound themselves out. Broken crankshafts are another > thing that you won't hear of when speaking of the Corvair, unlike the VW. > And the Corvair crank can be had for practically free. That fancy E4340 VW > crank was $600 last time I checked. There are several other factors, like 6 > cylinders rather than 4, that increase safety with the Corvair. For a > little more reading check out http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair.html > and http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kvw.html . > > Having said all of this, if you WANTED to cruise at 199 MPH with the KR2S, > the Corvair would certainly allow you to do this effortlessly. IF the VW > would let you do it (and it would almost have to be turbocharged and running > at the hairy edge) it wouldn't last long. > > Personally I feel like my plane will allow me to safely go faster than 200 > MPH, since my ailerons are fastened directly to the aft spar (rather than to > the wing skin) and my elevator spars are 50% taller, elevator's balanced, > etc. Only careful flight testing will tell the tale, but I plan to use my > Corvair to the fullest. I think Marty Roberts and many others would testify > that the stock KR2 can handle speeds greater than 200 MPH, repeatedly. He > runs an O-200... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: jsinon@jps.net > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-181287S@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: More Engine Questions From: "Mark Langford" Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 18:28:16 -0600 X-Message-Number: 7 Jon Sinon wrote: > I'm really curious how boring and stroking a T4, turbocharging it and > running it at 2400 rpm is stressing it. I think you should be able to build > a very solid engine with respectable performance and not risk anyone's > health using a VW engine. How much power do you think you're going to get at 2400 RPM? You'll be very hard pressed to get 80 HP out it at that slow speed, I'd bet, even if it IS turbocharged. My point was that if you want to push the KR2S to it's Vne of 200 mph, you're going to have a hard time doing it with a VW, assuming it's rated at the 78 HP that the GPASC Type 4 is rated at. If you don't think turbocharging an engine puts stress on it, I'm probably wasting my time here. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with the Type 4 VW (I've got a dual Weber carbureted 1700cc 412 engine in my Bus, a new 2600cc on the floor in my basement, and a dual Weber 2110cc Type 1 in my Karmann Ghia), but if you want to go 200 MPH in a KR2S, it makes sense to start with a large engine like the O-200 or Corvair. I was just trying to answer the question of why I'm going with the Corvair. I guess my main point was why not start with an engine that was DESIGNED to put out that kind of power, rather than one that was tweaked a lot to get to the same output level. It all depends on your needs and preferences... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: More Engine Questions From: KMcke10305@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:35:16 EST X-Message-Number: 8 What is the cost of an "air ready" corvair and what is the weight? Keith Ft. Myers, FL. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: More Engine Questions From: "Jon Sinon" Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:41:18 -0800 X-Message-Number: 9 well at 2900cc, and a very conservative cam, it work out to about 115hp @2400RPM. It's damn near 250HP @5K. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Langford To: KR-net users group Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2000 4:28 PM Subject: [kr-net] Re: More Engine Questions > Jon Sinon wrote: > > > I'm really curious how boring and stroking a T4, turbocharging it and > > running it at 2400 rpm is stressing it. I think you should be able to > build > > a very solid engine with respectable performance and not risk anyone's > > health using a VW engine. > > How much power do you think you're going to get at 2400 RPM? You'll be very > hard pressed to get 80 HP out it at that slow speed, I'd bet, even if it IS > turbocharged. My point was that if you want to push the KR2S to it's Vne of > 200 mph, you're going to have a hard time doing it with a VW, assuming it's > rated at the 78 HP that the GPASC Type 4 is rated at. If you don't think > turbocharging an engine puts stress on it, I'm probably wasting my time > here. > > I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with the Type 4 VW (I've got a > dual Weber carbureted 1700cc 412 engine in my Bus, a new 2600cc on the floor > in my basement, and a dual Weber 2110cc Type 1 in my Karmann Ghia), but if > you want to go 200 MPH in a KR2S, it makes sense to start with a large > engine like the O-200 or Corvair. I was just trying to answer the question > of why I'm going with the Corvair. I guess my main point was why not start > with an engine that was DESIGNED to put out that kind of power, rather than > one that was tweaked a lot to get to the same output level. It all depends > on your needs and preferences... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: jsinon@jps.net > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-181287S@telelists.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: kr-net digest: March 07, 2000 From: SRMAKISH@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:57:18 EST X-Message-Number: 10 I know from a personal experience that my Kr saw 250 indicated whike going straight down from 7000 feet after hitting a DC-10 vortices broadside. It was quite a ride. Steve Makish ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Annual Inspection From: Willard561@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 20:09:19 EST X-Message-Number: 11 In a message dated 00-03-08 18:14:40 EST, you write: << My brake system is from a company called Rosenhaun. This company I believe sold out or somehow got aquired by MATCO. If you ar >> I knew both of the Rosenhaun brothers and how Matco acquired their company is a real soap opera of "Dallas etc " class Bill Higdon Willard561@aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: More Engine Questions From: "Mark Langford" Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:20:36 -0600 X-Message-Number: 12 Keith wrote: > What is the cost of an "air ready" corvair and what is the weight? I'm replacing just about everything on my engine. New pistons and cylinders, cam, lifters, fuel pump, oil pump, stainless valves, new guides, starter, atlernator, flywheel, etc, AND going whacko and spending an extra $600 on boring the thing from 2700cc to 3100cc, and I can't imagine how I can spend much more than $3000. Prop hub is $300 if you buy it. Weight is about 220 pounds for the electric start version, but I don't think that includes the exhaust system. My guess is 25 pounds more than a comparable Type 4 VW, with almost twice the power. That's a worthwhile trade, in my book. Going price for a used rebuildable Corvair engine is $100, and parts for them are generally less expensive than Type 4 parts. I plan to thoroughly document my building of this engine, and give a blow by blow account on my web page (imagine that!). Weighing the thing is certainly in the cards. William Wynne ("The Corvair Authority") lists dry weight at 205 pounds for the "hand prop" version on his web page at http://www.flycorvair.com/corvair.html . I already have all of the machine work done and will start on it as soon as I finish up my electrical system. It should be running by the end of summer... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: More Engine Questions From: Horn2004@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 21:33:41 EST X-Message-Number: 13 In a message dated 3/8/00 7:40:19 PM, langford@hiwaay.net writes: << I already have all of the machine work done and will start on it as soon as I finish up my electrical system. It should be running by the end of summer... >> Get busy man! I think about 150 of us are fully expecting to see it at Lake Barkley in the fall. Steve Horn horn2004@aol.com Dallas, TX ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: More Engine Questions From: "Dan Villeneuve" Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:04:05 -0800 X-Message-Number: 14 Although I started the discussion on this I can answer the bore, stroke, and turbo question. I have extensive knowledge from sport compact cars (Toyota, Honda, Mitsubishi, Porsche, VW, etc.) Yes, you can build an engine that is bored and stroked as much as the VW and make it reliable. You have to know what you are doing though...the engine needs to be properly balanced, run the right cam, good intake and exhaust, etc. This can be done on a street car, but I'm not sure how all of the vibration from a prop would effect it...maybe not at all, but it should be tested. As for the turbo...if your looking for reliablity I wouldn't advise it unless you know what you doing and have prior knowledge to turbocharging. You have to think about what you are running...an "air-cooled engine"...a turbocharger runs off from exhaust gas and has a high speed at spool-up, producing extreme heat. I'm not sure how it is cooled on the VW, but usually it is by oil...hence heating the oil and inturn heating the engine. Also, if the air going into the engine is not intercooled it also raises the temp. of that. Your getting into alot of heat to worry about on an "air-cooled engine". On top of all of the heat you have to worry about reliablity of your turbo...proper cool down time. If the turbo doesn't cool down properly then the oil burns inside, in time causing your turbo to run inefficiantly and eventually failure. In cars we use a device called a turbo timer which runs the engine for a set time after driving until the turbo has cooled. I'd advise anyone going with the turbo engine to run it for a couple of minutes before shuting it down. Just giving my $.02 on the little bit I have knowledge on, take it or leave it. And thank you Mark, I've have made up my mind on the engine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: More Engine Questions From: "Mark Langford" Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 21:54:29 -0600 X-Message-Number: 15 Jon Sinon wrote: > well at 2900cc, and a very conservative cam, it work out to about 115hp > @2400RPM. It's damn near 250HP @5K. Jon, Are you familiar with the MEP of an engine? Given your obvious engine expertise, I'll assume you are. But for those who don't, it's basically a calculated measure of cylinder pressures seen by a given engine of known torque or hp output, and is a pretty good indication of the sort of "stress" that's taking place. MEP [ (HP x 792,000)/ (displacement x RPM) ] for the 120 hp 3100cc Corvair operating at 3200 rpm is 156 psi. A 115 hp 2900cc Type 4 VW running at 2400 rpm has an MEP of 216 psi. That's a 40% increase in "stress" that the engine sees. Conventional wisdom is that typical BMEP for a standard passenger car is about 130 to 145 psi, 165-185 in a high performance sports car, and 185-210 psi for racing cars. Personally, I'd rather have my aircraft engine in the passenger car range, rather than on the high end of the racing spectrum. But that's just my opinion. You're welcome to do as you please with yours, and the decision is entirely up to you. Most people think it's wise to stay on the conservative side, especially when it comes to aircraft engines. This indicator completely ignores all of the other mitigating factors that I mentioned earlier, like the fact that these parts were originally designed for half this power output, whereas the Corvair was designed for even more output than we ask of it. 2900 cc is pushing the hardware envelope for a Type 4, in my humble opinion. This was originally a 1700 cc engine when it left the VW factory. Yes, I had planned to use a Type 4 (see http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kvw.html ), and in fact invested over $4000 in the 2600 cc engine that's now wrapped in plastic in my basement. But I have no problem admitting when I've found something that makes more sense. The Type 4 is not the WRONG answer for the KR, but the Corvair is a BETTER one! This being my fourth KRNet message for the day, I've reached my limit and can't post any more, so I hope you'll forgive me for not answering any other comments that you may have. And I have some work to do in the basement... Mark Langford, ME Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to kr-net as: johnbou@ipinc.net To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-kr-net-110995W@telelists.com