From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 29 Apr 2000 00:10:12 -0000 Issue 18 Date: Friday, April 28, 2000 4:10 PM krnet Digest 29 Apr 2000 00:10:12 -0000 Issue 18 Topics (messages 298 through 327): Re: what's happening 298 by: Cary Honeywell 299 by: Horn2004.aol.com 301 by: N925SG 303 by: Mike Mims 304 by: Mark Langford 306 by: Ed Janssen 315 by: Ross Youngblood Lets Vote 300 by: Mark Jones 305 by: Jeff LeTempt 307 by: CHOCTAWCWR.aol.com 308 by: Suk Hi Ross 309 by: Mark Langford 310 by: Mike Mims 311 by: JEHayward.aol.com 312 by: Cary Honeywell 313 by: Florin L Pintea 314 by: Douglas Christian 316 by: Ross Youngblood Kevlar & 2S update ... 302 by: APECORAR.steelcase.com 317 by: Ross Youngblood 319 by: Ross Youngblood KR Marathon 318 by: Ross Youngblood 325 by: Joe Beyer 326 by: david barner posting 320 by: Allan D. Olcott 323 by: Ross Youngblood KR Flea Market 321 by: flykr2s.execpc.com 322 by: Suk Hi Ross Vote 324 by: Kr2dream.aol.com Re: Spar repair 327 by: Donald Reid Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 22:32:35 -0400 To: , From: "Cary Honeywell" Cc: "Allan D. Olcott" Subject: Re: KR> what's happening Message-ID: <000801bfb0ba$039734f0$0205a8c0@server1> Maybe evryone is waiting for Friday. Seems to be the thing to do these days. I preferred it when messages were sent everyday and people didn't have to wait until Friday to make a comment that might be slightly out of context. But thats just me. - Cary - ps: yes. I noticed the lack of traffic too. -Cary Honeywell - Ottawa Ontario Canada caryh@home.com ve3ev@rac.ca Home page http://24.112.208.98/ KR2 area http://24.112.208.98/kr2/kr2.shtml ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bobby Muse" To: Cc: "Allan D. Olcott" Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 10:08 PM Subject: Re: KR> what's happening > > > Is it just me or is everyone esle having the same problem? It seems > that I only get about two to five messages a day... yesterday I got four > and today I received only two. > Also the msg that I responded to ... I didn't receive it back. > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 22:58:25 EDT To: bmuse@ev1.net, krnet@mailinglists.org From: Horn2004@aol.com CC: allando000@hotmail.com Subject: Re: KR> what's happening Message-ID: <6.536ee37.263a5851@aol.com> In a message dated 4/27/00 9:13:33 PM, bmuse@ev1.net writes: <> You have to "Reply to All" when you send the reply, otherwise it will only reply directly to the person who wrote the original message you are responding to. Cuts down on the traffic. I guess we all noticed that. I kinda miss the traffic. Lots of good tangential information/discussion was generated when the reply to all mode was automatic. Steve Horn horn2004@aol.com Dallas, TX ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 20:37:29 -0700 To: , , From: "N925SG" Cc: Subject: Re: KR> what's happening Message-ID: <001301bfb0c3$16b168e0$2e7bd6ce@glover> There is a place called network 54.com that provides the capability for posting and viewing messages similar to before....maybe we could try that??? Just a thought... Steve sglover@ix.netcom.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Cc: Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 7:58 PM Subject: Re: KR> what's happening > > In a message dated 4/27/00 9:13:33 PM, bmuse@ev1.net writes: > > <> > > You have to "Reply to All" when you send the reply, otherwise it will only > reply directly to the person who wrote the original message you are > responding to. Cuts down on the traffic. I guess we all noticed that. I kinda > miss the traffic. Lots of good tangential information/discussion was > generated when the reply to all mode was automatic. > > Steve Horn > horn2004@aol.com > Dallas, TX > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 21:54:16 -0700 To: bmuse@ev1.net From: Mike Mims CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> what's happening Message-ID: <39091978.E3D4511F@home.com> Bobby Muse wrote: > > Also the msg that I responded to ... I didn't receive it back. > Bobby I think people are forgetting that you have to click on "reply to all" to send it to the list. If you click on "reply" only the original poster gets the reply. I have screwed this up countless times and I am sure others are too. -- __________________ Micheal Mims Aliso Viejo Ca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ........| .......-^- ....-/_____\- ...(O\__o__/O) ...[#]oxxxo[#] -----Y2K Bug--- Yes I drive one! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 07:22:39 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> what's happening Message-ID: <002c01bfb10c$72b212e0$58e6a58c@tbe.com> I don't know guys. I know that a bunch of people are breathing a huge sigh or relief that KRNet is once again a place where if you need good technical information you can get it almost immediately, without having to wade thru a bunch of stuff that doesn't concern or interest you. It's a simple toggle to get this list to "reply to list" rather than "reply to sender", and it would only take a minute to change it back. The problem has always been folks send purely personal messages back and forth while forcing the rest of us to read them. Yes, I DO have a delete button, but that's kinda like saying you have brakes on your car when people keep pulling out in front of you! It's been suggested that maybe there should be a KR "social" list, at whatever site you guys would like to choose. This same site can support that list too, for a mere $100 a year. If you guys want to start that social list, I'll be glad to set it up, or you can do it on your own. Given the volume of mail on KRNet, you social butterflies could subscribe to both. Personally I'll avoid the social list, at least until my plane is finished, but I'm known to have antisocial tendencies. The problem is that people send mail back to the originator rather than the list. I know that most times I've posted lately I've gotten 10 or 12 emails back and none were sent to the list, just to me. I'm sure that most of those were intended for the web. I'd have forwarded them, but you never know whether they were really meant to go there or not, and if I ask I've upped the bandwidth usage even more. With the speed of this list, if you don't see it within one minute of when you sent it, you didn't really send it to the list. Normal return time is about 10 seconds. I think the real problem is that people don't stop and think about what they're doing when they hit the "reply" button (I've done it too). Once we start to pause and think for a minute before posting, and then hit the "reply to all" button instead, traffic will increase. It's a pretty simple matter though for somebody to realize that their message never appeared on KRNet, and to simply send it again! We've all done it (some more than others), and I can't help but think that eventually we'll get the hang of it. The beauty of this scheme is that the buffoons who just want to say "hi bill hows the wether in bfe" will probably never figure out how to bother the rest of us with useless traffic. On the other hand, if you guys just don't think you'll ever learn, we can put it back like it was. The floor is still open for debate, and neither me nor Jeff is going to get real bent out of shape either way. Maybe it's my fault for "setting the tone" with our "welcome message". I don't mind useful KR (or at least homebuilt) related traffic one bit. I don't care if there are 50 emails a day with useful content. It's the mindless blubbering about nothing that drives me crazy. When we get off on the spin characteristics of Tomahawks I think we're way off topic. For you guys who yearn for a lively Internet community atmosphere, the rec.aviation.homebuilt newsgroup should keep you sufficiently entertained, or by all means, start the "social" list. But like I said, the floor's still open for debate, and it's your list... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 07:30:59 -0500 To: "Mark Langford" , From: ejanssen@chipsnet.com (Ed Janssen) Subject: Re: KR> what's happening Message-ID: <003601bfb10d$9c557280$2e0e2bd8@fasteddie> Well, for what my vote's worth, I LIKE the current setup. It certainly has helped eliminate the "Me Too"s and the "Right on"s. Like trained rats, some (me too) have hit the reply button without thinking. However, most of us are still not too old to learn a simple keystroke choice. It's not rocket science. Tape a little note to your monitor 'til it sinks in. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Langford To: Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 7:22 AM Subject: Re: KR> what's happening > > I don't know guys. I know that a bunch of people are breathing a huge sigh > or relief that KRNet is once again a place where if you need good technical > information you can get it almost immediately, without having to wade thru a > bunch of stuff that doesn't concern or interest you. It's a simple toggle > to get this list to "reply to list" rather than "reply to sender", and it > would only take a minute to change it back. The problem has always been > folks send purely personal messages back and forth while forcing the rest of > us to read them. Yes, I DO have a delete button, but that's kinda like > saying you have brakes on your car when people keep pulling out in front of > you! > > It's been suggested that maybe there should be a KR "social" list, at > whatever site you guys would like to choose. This same site can support > that list too, for a mere $100 a year. If you guys want to start that > social list, I'll be glad to set it up, or you can do it on your own. Given > the volume of mail on KRNet, you social butterflies could subscribe to both. > Personally I'll avoid the social list, at least until my plane is finished, > but I'm known to have antisocial tendencies. > > The problem is that people send mail back to the originator rather than the > list. I know that most times I've posted lately I've gotten 10 or 12 emails > back and none were sent to the list, just to me. I'm sure that most of > those were intended for the web. I'd have forwarded them, but you never > know whether they were really meant to go there or not, and if I ask I've > upped the bandwidth usage even more. With the speed of this list, if you > don't see it within one minute of when you sent it, you didn't really send > it to the list. Normal return time is about 10 seconds. > > I think the real problem is that people don't stop and think about what > they're doing when they hit the "reply" button (I've done it too). Once we > start to pause and think for a minute before posting, and then hit the > "reply to all" button instead, traffic will increase. It's a pretty simple > matter though for somebody to realize that their message never appeared on > KRNet, and to simply send it again! We've all done it (some more than > others), and I can't help but think that eventually we'll get the hang of > it. The beauty of this scheme is that the buffoons who just want to say "hi > bill hows the wether in bfe" will probably never figure out how to bother > the rest of us with useless traffic. > > On the other hand, if you guys just don't think you'll ever learn, we can > put it back like it was. The floor is still open for debate, and neither me > nor Jeff is going to get real bent out of shape either way. Maybe it's my > fault for "setting the tone" with our "welcome message". I don't mind > useful KR (or at least homebuilt) related traffic one bit. I don't care if > there are 50 emails a day with useful content. It's the mindless blubbering > about nothing that drives me crazy. When we get off on the spin > characteristics of Tomahawks I think we're way off topic. For you guys who > yearn for a lively Internet community atmosphere, the rec.aviation.homebuilt > newsgroup should keep you sufficiently entertained, or by all means, start > the "social" list. > > But like I said, the floor's still open for debate, and it's your list... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:56:19 -0700 To: bmuse@ev1.net From: Ross Youngblood CC: krnet@mailinglists.org, "Allan D. Olcott" Subject: Re: KR> what's happening Message-ID: <3909C2B3.23E3A39B@teleport.com> Bobby, In general, I have noticed that I recieve much less traffic to KR-net since the move. I had been posting a "KR marathon" series, and I recieved no feedback or flames, so I am curious how things are going too. We could have a few gremlins in the new server yet. -- Ross Bobby Muse wrote: > Is it just me or is everyone esle having the same problem? It seems > that I only get about two to five messages a day... yesterday I got four > and today I received only two. > Also the msg that I responded to ... I didn't receive it back. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 22:05:38 -0500 To: KR-Net From: Mark Jones Subject: Lets Vote Message-ID: <39090002.17AA3FB0@execpc.com> I say we take a vote and see who wants to see all the replies or not. Maybe if enough of us would like all the replies, then maybe the net administrators will change it back! I VOTE YES -- Mark Jones (N886MJ) Waukesha, WI USA mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://sites.netscape.net/flykr2s/homepage ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 07:24:00 -0500 To: "KR-Net" From: "Jeff LeTempt" Subject: Re: KR> Lets Vote Message-ID: <009b01bfb10c$a36cbe80$36a3fe3f@default> Personally I like the reply -vs- reply all setup. I think about 1/2 of the replies are either the "I agree or thanks" or semi-personal messages that should be sent directly to the individual anyway. Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Jones To: KR-Net Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 10:05 PM Subject: KR> Lets Vote > I say we take a vote and see who wants to see all the replies or not. > Maybe if enough of us would like all the replies, then maybe the net > administrators will change it back! > > I VOTE YES > > -- > Mark Jones (N886MJ) > Waukesha, WI USA > mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com > Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at > http://sites.netscape.net/flykr2s/homepage > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:18:00 EDT To: flykr2s@execpc.com, krnet@mailinglists.org From: CHOCTAWCWR@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> Lets Vote Message-ID: <57.4f250e4.263ae988@aol.com> i vote no, we have already been down that road, 25 emails a day of "me too's" and other useless junk. if it is important enough to be on this net it should come from someone that at least knows to REPLY ALL. just my 2 cents ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 08:48:10 -0500 To: "Mark Jones" , "KR-Net" From: "Suk Hi Ross" Subject: Re: KR> Lets Vote Message-Id: <20000428135359.LGCH1339.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@home> I'm new. Vote NO. Like the setup as is, but I missed the thing about Fridays only. Keep seeing comments like "I know it's not Friday, but I have this question..." Are we only supposed to use the net on Fridays? Whats the deal? Have plan set for KR-1. Trying to decide wht to bld. Enjoy EVERYONE'S comments and all the great web sites for KRs. Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX ---------- > From: Mark Jones > To: KR-Net > Subject: KR> Lets Vote > Date: Thursday, April 27, 2000 10:05 PM > > I say we take a vote and see who wants to see all the replies or not. > Maybe if enough of us would like all the replies, then maybe the net > administrators will change it back! > > I VOTE YES > > -- > Mark Jones (N886MJ) > Waukesha, WI USA > mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com > Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at > http://sites.netscape.net/flykr2s/homepage > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:06:23 -0500 To: "KR-Net" From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Lets Vote Message-ID: <001e01bfb11a$f06dd8a0$58e6a58c@tbe.com> Frank Ross wrote: >Are we only supposed to use the net on Fridays? Friday's the day for blatant advertising for your own personal products, which is something that applies to very few of us. We usually don't shoot offenders though. Welcome to the list. There's been a lot of talk about KR-1s lately. If you don't need to haul a passenger, it's definitely the way to go fast... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 07:49:03 -0700 (PDT) To: KR-Net From: Mike Mims Subject: Re: KR> Lets Vote Message-ID: <20000428144903.17928.qmail@web1406.mail.yahoo.com> I like it the way it is now. Although, I am still in the process of TRAINING MYSELF to hit reply to all. I almost screwed this post up too. :o) ===== ........| .......-^- ....-/_____\- ...(O\__o__/O) ...[#]oxxxo[#] -----Y2K Bug--- Yes I drive one! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:57:45 EDT To: flykr2s@execpc.com, krnet@mailinglists.org From: JEHayward@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> Lets Vote Message-ID: <68.3008b03.263b00e9@aol.com> In a message dated 04/27/00 9:04:30 PM Mountain Daylight Time, flykr2s@execpc.com writes: << I say we take a vote and see who wants to see all the replies or not. >> I like it the way it is.... cuts down on chit-chat and gets me back out to my project! I know if it makes the list, it's usually worth taking the time to read. Jim Hayward Rapid City, SD ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:43:24 -0400 To: "KR-Net" From: "Cary Honeywell" Subject: Re: KR> Lets Vote Message-ID: <000b01bfb128$7d41b690$0205a8c0@server1> I just hope that those who vote, reply to all rather than taking the default. I vote yes as well as long as it is possible for the admins to do this. Some mailing lists can't do it. - Cary - -Cary Honeywell - Ottawa Ontario Canada caryh@home.com ve3ev@rac.ca Home page http://24.112.208.98/ KR2 area http://24.112.208.98/kr2/kr2.shtml ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Jones" To: "KR-Net" Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 11:05 PM Subject: KR> Lets Vote > I say we take a vote and see who wants to see all the replies or not. > Maybe if enough of us would like all the replies, then maybe the net > administrators will change it back! > > I VOTE YES > > -- > Mark Jones (N886MJ) > Waukesha, WI USA > mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com > Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at > http://sites.netscape.net/flykr2s/homepage > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:36:58 -0700 To: "Mark Jones" , "KR-Net" From: "Florin L Pintea" Subject: Re: KR> Lets Vote Message-ID: <002d01bfb138$5ada3cc0$25194618@cgws1.ab.wave.home.com> Hello everyone, At the risk of being one of the "outlaws" of the group I would like to vote for receiving "all" the messages as I did before. Since we are in a democracy situation here (I hope) this would be my wish, although either way is fine. Yes, I know some of the messages get annoying and some are trivial or useless, but from my perspective those messages are "easily" overlooked when I consider the rest of the "extremely educational" posts by far outweigh the so called "useless blabbing" and I think I can live with that. I would have to agree that nobody enjoys the "personal attacks" or "heated arguments some people have had on this list and I would vote those should be kept private, but a lot of the messages that are posted, if people read them, would save the same topic being discussed more than once (every month) hehehe. On numerous occasions my question was answered before I even asked if I just paid attention and read the posts. There are a few categories of members in this club: the "experts", the experienced and then the ones like myself who want to absorb the very last drop of useful information at the risk of having to weed trough some crap. After all it may save our butt in the end, if not maybe some time, money and aggravation. And since this forum is meant for us to learn from one another, I planned to do just that when I joined at the risk of spending extra time while I do the "weeding". I have been a member for 8 months or so and I've learned a lot just by being silent here and reading every single message and I have to say I've really enjoyed the material. Thanks to people like Mark Langford, WW, Mike Mims, Pat Panzera and many others that are willing to share their expertise with us that are "less fortunate " to have so much experience, we've learned a lot and I would like to thank all of them for taking the time and having the patience to put up with us. I'd have to agree with the "experienced" that it could become boring at times, but it could also help someone save his life and I know that's worth it. However it may turn out to be, I will still enjoy reading all the messages. I do have to say that since we've change the system I've received less educational material, but maybe that's just my imagination. That would be my less valuable 2 Canadian cents! Thanks for listening to my rant. Florin L Pintea Calgary, Alberta, Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Jones" To: "KR-Net" Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 8:05 PM Subject: KR> Lets Vote > I say we take a vote and see who wants to see all the replies or not. > Maybe if enough of us would like all the replies, then maybe the net > administrators will change it back! > > I VOTE YES > > -- > Mark Jones (N886MJ) > Waukesha, WI USA > mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com > Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at > http://sites.netscape.net/flykr2s/homepage > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:48:11 -0500 To: Mark Jones , KR-Net From: Douglas Christian Subject: RE: KR> Lets Vote Message-ID: <35216445F9CAD1118D2100A0C9898BB4264B85@EXCHANGE_SERVER> I'd like to see everything also. I vote yes. Maybe we'll just have to learn to use the 'Reply to All' feature. Douglas Christian Email: dougc@mccgroup.com -----Original Message----- From: Mark Jones [mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com] Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 10:06 PM To: KR-Net Subject: KR> Lets Vote I say we take a vote and see who wants to see all the replies or not. Maybe if enough of us would like all the replies, then maybe the net administrators will change it back! I VOTE YES -- Mark Jones (N886MJ) Waukesha, WI USA mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://sites.netscape.net/flykr2s/homepage --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:57:34 -0700 To: Mark Jones From: Ross Youngblood CC: KR-Net Subject: Re: KR> Lets Vote Message-ID: <3909C2FE.33B0766D@teleport.com> Mark, I too lean towards the Verbose KR-net, but it is more work to keep up with email in that case. Mark Jones wrote: > I say we take a vote and see who wants to see all the replies or not. > Maybe if enough of us would like all the replies, then maybe the net > administrators will change it back! > > I VOTE YES > > -- > Mark Jones (N886MJ) > Waukesha, WI USA > mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com > Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at > http://sites.netscape.net/flykr2s/homepage > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 00:15:00 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: APECORAR@steelcase.com Subject: Kevlar & 2S update ... Message-ID: Netters, It's Friday and I am here to sell ... encouragement! I did my first layup ever of my entire life - my forward deck - and I am surprised at how easy it was to do! Well, first let me qualify that statement with some background information. I purchased the Composite Practice kit from Aircraft Spruce last year and I read the instruction manual many times - at least 20 (makes excellent reading during the morning routine, if you know what I mean! ;-) I didn't even use the practice materials from the kit ... the only thing I read was the manual. This is excellent reading for the inexperienced such as myself (Thanks to Mike Mims for this suggestion.) I also consulted Mark Langford's Forward Deck page on his website and asked him some last-minute questions about the technique he uses to do his layups (Thanks Mark Langford.) If you are a first-time builder (like myself) and have never worked with fiberglass (like myself), let me assure you that with adequate preparation (and consulting the right people! ;-) you can put together a composite surface relatively quick and easy. In general, the layup turned out pretty good for a first attempt. The only thing I noticed when I checked the layup after 4 hours was that a foam wedge section had separated underneath the layup and lifted about 1/16 of an inch. I hope I can fix this with some filler and sand it to shape. I used Great Stuff expanding foam as an adhesive ... I must have either used too little in that area or I applied to much pressure when I was squeegeing the cloth. :-( Another thing I learned about using kevlar is that it is difficult to cut if you don't have the right scissors. Yesterday, I used a set of Henckel scissors that were lying around my kitchen. Not a good idea. Today, they are only good for cutting through soft butter! I went to a local marine shop and purchased a pair of heavy-duty utility scissors and that did the trick. Before cutting the kevlar I placed a strip of duct tape on it so that the edge of the tape acted as a cutting guide. This also prevented the kevlar from fraying at the edges when I cut it. Then, I carefully removed the tape so as not to rip out any strands. This worked pretty good for me. I was able to size the kevlar to within 1/4" of the perimeter of my forward deck. When I wetted out the cloth on the 4mm plastic I made sure to wet out the edges adequately because, once again, kevlar tends to fray and fuzz up if you cut it when it's dry. After that, everything else was quite easy. I just had fun with it. So, if you are a first time builder and/or are inexperienced with fiberglassing and you need some encouragement, keep this email, print it out, hang it up in your shop or on your plane or wherever ... and just get out there and give it a try! You'll be glad you did! I'm going to play with my forward deck now ... Albert Pecoraro Applications Engineer, Sales & Marketing Systems Steelcase Inc. apecorar@steelcase.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:01:42 -0700 To: APECORAR@steelcase.com From: Ross Youngblood CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Kevlar & 2S update ... Message-ID: <3909C3F6.68709D35@teleport.com> Albert, I too have had fun with Kevlar. I loved working with it, but I would make a recommendation. When you lay-up your canopy, use regular glass around the canopy plexiglass. Glass is easy to trim with a dremel tool metal cutting wheel, Kevlar is a real CHORE to cut. I still have a ragged edge around my canopy, which is on the bottom of the cosmetic list of things to work out later. I found that the dremel cutting wheels would not last long, so I moved to the mandrel and abrasive disks, these work fine, but eventually break and you have to install another. Perhaps a diamond cutting wheel for the dremel would work, but I haven't seen one. Be sure to wear safety glasses when cutting with the abrasive disks, when they break, and they will, you want eye protection! -- Regards Ross APECORAR@steelcase.com wrote: > Netters, > > It's Friday and I am here to sell ... encouragement! I did my first layup ever > of my entire life - my forward deck - and I am surprised at how easy it was to > do! Well, first let me qualify that statement with some background > information. I purchased the Composite Practice kit from Aircraft Spruce last > year and I read the instruction manual many times - at least 20 (makes > excellent reading during the morning routine, if you know what I mean! ;-) I > didn't even use the practice materials from the kit ... the only thing I read > was the manual. This is excellent reading for the inexperienced such as myself > (Thanks to Mike Mims for this suggestion.) I also consulted Mark Langford's > Forward Deck page on his website and asked him some last-minute questions > about the technique he uses to do his layups (Thanks Mark Langford.) > > If you are a first-time builder (like myself) and have never worked with > fiberglass (like myself), let me assure you that with adequate preparation > (and consulting the right people! ;-) you can put together a composite surface > relatively quick and easy. > > In general, the layup turned out pretty good for a first attempt. The only > thing I noticed when I checked the layup after 4 hours was that a foam wedge > section had separated underneath the layup and lifted about 1/16 of an inch. I > hope I can fix this with some filler and sand it to shape. I used Great Stuff > expanding foam as an adhesive ... I must have either used too little in that > area or I applied to much pressure when I was squeegeing the cloth. :-( > > Another thing I learned about using kevlar is that it is difficult to cut if > you don't have the right scissors. Yesterday, I used a set of Henckel scissors > that were lying around my kitchen. Not a good idea. Today, they are only good > for cutting through soft butter! I went to a local marine shop and purchased a > pair of heavy-duty utility scissors and that did the trick. > > Before cutting the kevlar I placed a strip of duct tape on it so that the edge > of the tape acted as a cutting guide. This also prevented the kevlar from > fraying at the edges when I cut it. Then, I carefully removed the tape so as > not to rip out any strands. This worked pretty good for me. I was able to size > the kevlar to within 1/4" of the perimeter of my forward deck. When I wetted > out the cloth on the 4mm plastic I made sure to wet out the edges adequately > because, once again, kevlar tends to fray and fuzz up if you cut it when it's > dry. > > After that, everything else was quite easy. I just had fun with it. > > So, if you are a first time builder and/or are inexperienced with > fiberglassing and you need some encouragement, keep this email, print it out, > hang it up in your shop or on your plane or wherever ... and just get out > there and give it a try! You'll be glad you did! > > I'm going to play with my forward deck now ... > > Albert Pecoraro > Applications Engineer, Sales & Marketing Systems > Steelcase Inc. > apecorar@steelcase.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:25:48 -0700 To: APECORAR@steelcase.com, krnet@mailinglists.org From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Re: KR> Kevlar & 2S update ... Message-ID: <3909C99B.AC66C952@teleport.com> It seems like it (using 2"-4" S-glass) would work. I don't know what your layup will look like. The tip of using Electrical tape around the canopy works WONDERS. I started my layup, then about 2 years later peeled everything off and nothing stuck. I did however let the resin drip onto the protective covering for the canopy, and that made it VERY difficult to remove portions of the inside of the covering. Try to wipe up excess resin to make the removal easier. I thought I was "protected" and got lazy on that task. -- Regards Ross APECORAR@steelcase.com wrote: > Ross, > > Thanks for the helpful information on working with kevlar. In anticipation of > building edges (such as around the canopy frame) I have 2 rolls of S-glass > tape - 2" and 4" - and 6oz E-glass. Will these work fine? ... > > I too have a Dremel but have not yet tried using the abrasive disks. I will > highly consider your recommendations about using a mandrel instead. > > BTW: I always wear my safety goggles and protective masks when I work on the > airplane ... regardless of what I am doing. It is a work habit I developed > many years ago. > > Thanks again for your help. I appreciate it! :-) > > Have a great day! > > Albert Pecoraro > Applications Engineer, Sales & Marketing Systems > Steelcase Inc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:14:18 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Ross Youngblood Subject: KR Marathon Message-ID: <3909C6EA.B0AF27E6@teleport.com> I'm back on the KR marathon. I don't have the list of what day this is. I skipped Mon-Wednesday and don't recall if I posted Sunday, due to my travel to San-Jose. So we won't count this, OK. Even Dance marathoners get a break. So Thursday night, we cleaned up the Right wing's aileron counterweight and worked at enlarging the hole for it in the wing. This was a bummer because the wing is already glassed and painted, but I decided I needed a new hole. Well, I thought I had some micro-slurry, as a butter knife wasn't clearing the hole, so I thought I'd use a chisel to remove about 1/2" of the foam. The bad news is, in the poor light, I didn't realize I have removed a bout 1/2" diagonally off the LOWER SPAR CAP! Major mistake. I was able to install the aileron and get great validation of the aileron up/down travel now, but am pondering the length I will have to go to for the repair of the 1/2" notch in the lower spar cap. I'm thinking of feathering a piece of 1/4" plywood about 3-4" long and making a doubler patch along the top of the spar cap (this is the bottom spar cap for the aft outer wing spar), then filling the gap with flox, where the doubler will act as a "form", when the gap has cured, add another doubler patch along the face of the spar cap (facing aft). This would require the least amount of material be removed as I can get in from the existing hole. The moral of this story... Use GOOD lighting for your shop. I put three fixtures in last week, but my halagon lights are burned out, and my fluroesent task light was packed in a toolbox... from the move. So I chalk up the cut spar to poor lighting, and Homer Simpson like asumptions. So, after having that adventure I proceeded to do somthing different and worked at mounting my ELT. I drilled a couple of holes, and prepared to check the fit of the unit in the target location aft of the passenger seat. Unfortunatly, I couldn't locate the ELT quick release straps that go with the aluminum cradle. Well I spent some time looking for this, then decided to call it a night. I'm sure it will turn up as soon as I order a replacement. Another casualty of the move down from Oregon. Oh, I am still looking for a carb heat box. If someone wants to fab a couple for an EFS-2 I will spend some $$. My alternative at this point seems to be to purchase the bearing repair kit from AS&S, or Wicks for a Cessna unit, and build a box around this. They have a nifty bearing set, and control arm, and I am thinking this would be faster than machining my own unit... again. -- Ross ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 04:46:40 -0700 To: "Ross Youngblood" , From: "Joe Beyer" Subject: Re: KR> KR Marathon Message-ID: <004901bfb107$6c30fb20$ae41b23f@earthlink.net> Don't feel bad, I drilled through my lower spar cap once about 1/2" from the end at the attach fitting trying to install a riv nut for an access panel. You're right, use good lighting. mailto:joejbeyer@earthlink.net Portland, Ore. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ross Youngblood To: Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 10:14 AM Subject: KR> KR Marathon > I'm back on the KR marathon. I don't have the list of what day this is. > > I skipped Mon-Wednesday and don't recall if I posted Sunday, due to > my travel to San-Jose. So we won't count this, OK. Even Dance > marathoners > get a break. > > So Thursday night, we cleaned up the Right wing's aileron counterweight > and worked at enlarging the hole for it in the wing. This was a bummer > because > the wing is already glassed and painted, but I decided I needed a new > hole. > Well, I thought I had some micro-slurry, as a butter knife wasn't > clearing the > hole, so I thought I'd use a chisel to remove about 1/2" of the foam. > The bad > news is, in the poor light, I didn't realize I have removed a bout 1/2" > diagonally > off the LOWER SPAR CAP! Major mistake. > > I was able to install the aileron and get great validation of the > aileron up/down > travel now, but am pondering the length I will have to go to for the > repair of > the 1/2" notch in the lower spar cap. I'm thinking of feathering a > piece of 1/4" > plywood about 3-4" long and making a doubler patch along the top of > the spar cap (this is the bottom spar cap for the aft outer wing spar), > then > filling the gap with flox, where the doubler will act as a "form", when > the > gap has cured, add another doubler patch along the face of the spar cap > (facing aft). This would require the least amount of material be > removed > as I can get in from the existing hole. > > The moral of this story... Use GOOD lighting for your shop. I put > three > fixtures in last week, but my halagon lights are burned out, and my > fluroesent > task light was packed in a toolbox... from the move. So I chalk up the > cut spar to poor lighting, and Homer Simpson like asumptions. > > So, after having that adventure I proceeded to do somthing different > and worked at mounting my ELT. I drilled a couple of holes, and > prepared to check the fit of the unit in the target location aft of the > passenger seat. Unfortunatly, I couldn't locate the ELT quick release > straps that go with the aluminum cradle. Well I spent some time > looking for this, then decided to call it a night. I'm sure it will > turn > up as soon as I order a replacement. Another casualty of the move > down from Oregon. > > Oh, I am still looking for a carb heat box. If someone wants to fab > a couple for an EFS-2 I will spend some $$. My alternative at > this point seems to be to purchase the bearing repair kit from > AS&S, or Wicks for a Cessna unit, and build a box around this. > They have a nifty bearing set, and control arm, and I am thinking > this would be faster than machining my own unit... again. > > -- Ross > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 20:01:40 -0400 To: Ross Youngblood From: david barner CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> KR Marathon Message-ID: <390A2664.DE518B12@frognet.net> do the ailerons have to be balanced by the method in the book, I really hate to cut holes in the wing for clearance??? Ross Youngblood wrote: > I'm back on the KR marathon. I don't have the list of what day this is. > > I skipped Mon-Wednesday and don't recall if I posted Sunday, due to > my travel to San-Jose. So we won't count this, OK. Even Dance > marathoners > get a break. > > So Thursday night, we cleaned up the Right wing's aileron counterweight > and worked at enlarging the hole for it in the wing. This was a bummer > because > the wing is already glassed and painted, but I decided I needed a new > hole. > Well, I thought I had some micro-slurry, as a butter knife wasn't > clearing the > hole, so I thought I'd use a chisel to remove about 1/2" of the foam. > The bad > news is, in the poor light, I didn't realize I have removed a bout 1/2" > diagonally > off the LOWER SPAR CAP! Major mistake. > > I was able to install the aileron and get great validation of the > aileron up/down > travel now, but am pondering the length I will have to go to for the > repair of > the 1/2" notch in the lower spar cap. I'm thinking of feathering a > piece of 1/4" > plywood about 3-4" long and making a doubler patch along the top of > the spar cap (this is the bottom spar cap for the aft outer wing spar), > then > filling the gap with flox, where the doubler will act as a "form", when > the > gap has cured, add another doubler patch along the face of the spar cap > (facing aft). This would require the least amount of material be > removed > as I can get in from the existing hole. > > The moral of this story... Use GOOD lighting for your shop. I put > three > fixtures in last week, but my halagon lights are burned out, and my > fluroesent > task light was packed in a toolbox... from the move. So I chalk up the > cut spar to poor lighting, and Homer Simpson like asumptions. > > So, after having that adventure I proceeded to do somthing different > and worked at mounting my ELT. I drilled a couple of holes, and > prepared to check the fit of the unit in the target location aft of the > passenger seat. Unfortunatly, I couldn't locate the ELT quick release > straps that go with the aluminum cradle. Well I spent some time > looking for this, then decided to call it a night. I'm sure it will > turn > up as soon as I order a replacement. Another casualty of the move > down from Oregon. > > Oh, I am still looking for a carb heat box. If someone wants to fab > a couple for an EFS-2 I will spend some $$. My alternative at > this point seems to be to purchase the bearing repair kit from > AS&S, or Wicks for a Cessna unit, and build a box around this. > They have a nifty bearing set, and control arm, and I am thinking > this would be faster than machining my own unit... again. > > -- Ross > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:29:39 -0700 To: From: "Allan D. Olcott" Subject: posting Message-ID: <20000428172946.89445.qmail@hotmail.com> ------=_NextPart_000_007F_01BFB0FC.A8837D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable if i mail a question using the address krnet@mailinglists.org will it = be received by all? ------=_NextPart_000_007F_01BFB0FC.A8837D60-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:40:33 -0700 To: "Allan D. Olcott" From: Ross Youngblood CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> posting Message-ID: <3909F741.24E8382B@teleport.com> Yes, What we are discussing is what happens to your replies. The mail list server can be set to put 'krnet@mailinglists.org' as the reply_to: field, or it can be set to put the senders email address only, which is what the current setting is. When you push "reply" on your email software, it will address the reply to the "reply_to:" field only. If you use Netscape mail (I do), then you can view all the email headers and see what the "reply_to:" is set to. Also on Netscape mail you can push the "REPLY" button or "REPLY ALL" button. When you push "Reply All" The software automaticly addresses your reply to the sender and all other reciepients of the message. In the case of Reply All there are always two reciepients, the sender, and krnet@mailinglists.org. The point Mark and Jeff are making, is that it is reasonably easy to learn to push "Reply All" or add krnet@mailinglists.org in the TO field, and it cuts down on the "me to". Stuff. Just to demonstrate, I'm going to do more "reply all's" and that should add enough email traffic to get me flamed so we can see what happens. -- Regards Ross "Allan D. Olcott" wrote: > if i mail a question using the address krnet@mailinglists.org will it be received by all? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:49:01 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: flykr2s@execpc.com Cc: Subject: KR Flea Market Message-Id: <200004281949.OAA11908@mailgw02.execpc.com> It's Friday so I am throwing this out for consideration. I would like to suggest at the 2000 KR Gathering we have a Flea Market for KR and aircraft related items. This would be a great opportunity to sell things we don't need and possibly even find things we do need. If we have a couple tables set up for this we could display the items and have a little fun with this. What do you think? Mark Jones (N886MJ) Waukesha, WI mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com http://sites.netscape.net/flykr2s/homepage ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:08:51 -0500 To: , From: "Suk Hi Ross" Subject: Re: KR> KR Flea Market Message-Id: <20000428201338.XKN1747.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@home> I like the Flea Mkt idea. I'll bring a U-Haul. Dont have anything to sell, but sure could use a few things. Great idea! Frank Ross ---------- > From: flykr2s@execpc.com > To: krnet@mailinglists.org > Subject: KR> KR Flea Market > Date: Friday, April 28, 2000 2:49 PM > I would like to suggest at the 2000 KR Gathering we have a Flea Market > Mark Jones (N886MJ) > Waukesha, WI > mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com > http://sites.netscape.net/flykr2s/homepage > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 17:23:38 EDT To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Kr2dream@aol.com Subject: Vote Message-ID: I like the list as it is now. It's easy to use the "reply to all" button. Bob Lasecki Still in Chicago ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 20:10:00 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR> Spar repair Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000428200442.00956340@pop.erols.com> --=====================_1162046==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:14 AM 4/28/00 -0700, Ross Youngblood wrote: >hole, so I thought I'd use a chisel to remove about 1/2" of the foam. The bad >news is, in the poor light, I didn't realize I have removed a bout 1/2" >diagonally off the LOWER SPAR CAP! Major mistake. > >I was able to install the aileron and get great validation of the >aileron up/down travel now, but am pondering the length I will have to go to >for the repair of the 1/2" notch in the lower spar cap. > I'm thinking of feathering a piece of 1/4" >plywood about 3-4" long and making a doubler patch along the top of >the spar cap (this is the bottom spar cap for the aft outer wing spar), Where on the spar? Since it is the aft spar, there is a whole lot of margin to work with. If your boo-boo is in the outer portion of the rear spar, then repair is not especially critical. Stress levels are very low. If it is near the attachment fittings, then you need to be careful. Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com Bumpass, Va KR2XL at http://www.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm USUA Club 250 at http://www.erols.com/donreid/usua250.html --=====================_1162046==_.ALT-- ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************