From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 7 Oct 2000 01:53:53 -0000 Issue 103 Date: Friday, October 06, 2000 5:55 PM krnet Digest 7 Oct 2000 01:53:53 -0000 Issue 103 Topics (messages 2378 through 2407): Re: What am I building??? 2378 by: James Sellars Re: New Wing 2379 by: James Sellars 2402 by: rossy.teleport.com Re: Elevator hinges 2380 by: Stefan B. 2391 by: KR2616TJ.aol.com 2392 by: ROBERT COOPER 2393 by: ROBERT COOPER 2397 by: Dean Collette 2406 by: JEAN VERON 2407 by: Steven Eberhart Sensitive Pitch? 2381 by: Kenneth Burch 2386 by: Frank Ross 2390 by: James Sellars For those disgusted with WW 2382 by: Seifert, Richard E KR-2 for sale 2383 by: Lon V Boothby Re: I don't get it 2384 by: macwood Re: A comment on modifications to the KR, ie: "New Airfoil" 2385 by: macwood 2388 by: Mark Langford Ideas on kr 2387 by: Steven Williams GuruNet 2389 by: Frank Ross Re: getting started/sticking with it 2394 by: cartera shipping 2395 by: Frank Ross if Ken Rand were alive... 2396 by: Oscar Zuniga VIDEOS 2398 by: Mark Jones Re: flaps 2399 by: Phil Maynard bent spar 2400 by: Phil Maynard Re: Hallo all KR-netters 2401 by: rossy.teleport.com Re: Filling the nicks etc. 2403 by: Patricia Burger 2404 by: Horn2004.aol.com 2405 by: Mark Langford Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 09:34:14 -0300 To: Frank Ross , flykr2s@execpc.com, krnet@mailinglists.org From: James Sellars Subject: Re: KR> What am I building??? Message-Id: <4.3.0.20001006091444.00a7e800@mail.auracom.com> Ross; Where to start. I fell for the KR-2, tough little plane high speed potential and nice to look at too. So I began thinking about the engine that I would put in it. I didn't like the idea of a VW. No logic looking back I just thought there must be something more modern that would work as well. I owned a Saturn car at the time and I really liked how that little engine worked. All aluminium, 124 hp, high low speed torque, low weight(174lb.) So I began to ask more questions. Dave Johnson of "Reductions" said he would build me a firewall forward set-up. Canadian funds being little, (dollarettes)and Dave being in Winnipeg, I decided to go for it. He delivered to me a SL2 DOHC engine with the engine mount, a gear reduction, electronic ignition, (stock car style), custom exhaust header, ready to mount to my firewall. So I mounted the big brut, and fired her up. Amazing power with the PSRG the torque was terrific and it still weighed less than a O-200, with about 25% more power. I had a prop built by Colin Walker in Surrey BC, ;a maple work of art, 60 x72 pitch. You see I have longer legs on my bird than most. I had read leave your prop as long as you can for as long as you can. So I did. The cowl I build following the technique out of the plans, and made it look like a Kitty Hawk, P-40 with the lower scoop ducted to the radiator that was enclosed in the aft part of the cowl. The system worked great. I worked through ground handling problems adding up about ten hours on the Hobbs. Every time we started the engine we drained some fuel out of the tank looking for contamination of course, But I think the baffles and the fact that the plane was a tail dragger, might have allowed some contaminants to remain un-flushed. During my first flight, after about 15 minutes, of terrific performance and handling I began to have a rough running engine. Loosing power and altitude, I decided to pick my spot and put her down as gently as I could. I had to turn off the power on short final, the engine had never stopped running it was simply being choked with some kind of sludge. Unfortunately the poor little plane (it looked great and flew great) broke up giving itself for me. The cowl had only two openings one at the top on one side much like a turbo intake for a ME 109, and the lower air intake for the radiator that I mentioned above. Frank, help me find another airframe to mount this engine and instruments to and I will fly it to the next gathering. Regards Jim At 02:03 PM 10/5/00 -0700, Frank Ross wrote: >--- James Sellars wrote: > > Here here!! You want a real question What did I > > build with a Saturn Engine > > ? Regards Friends; Jim > >Jim, >I'm probably not the only one with a dozen questions >about that Saturn engine set-up. Did you wreck your >car and decide to salvage the engine? Is it a 4 cyl >inline? What kind of mount did you use? What's your >cowling look like? Did you use a PSRU? Who built it? >What other modifications did you have to make to the >engine? Are there other GM engines identical to the >Saturn? Is this a Canadian thing? Are you going to >mount floats for your next swamp landing? You crazy >Canadians will land anywhere! So many questions, so >little time. Seriously, the Saturn opens a whole new >line for KRs and I haven't heard anyone even >considering it until your plane. Where did that come >from? >Thanks. > >===== >Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! >http://photos.yahoo.com/ > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org >To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 09:46:20 -0300 To: GARYKR2@cs.com, krnet@mailinglists.org From: James Sellars Subject: Re: KR> New Wing Message-Id: <4.3.0.20001006094508.00a71b10@mail.auracom.com> Gary; You're absolutely right from where I sit, and on top of what we might have learned through the discussion, it was really fun so keep it up. Regards Jim At 07:46 PM 10/5/00 -0400, GARYKR2@cs.com wrote: > I was the person that started this so called "Fire Storm" By asking a >simple question. So far I have not seen the "Trashing" of anyone or either >wing. Nobody was swearing at or degrading each other. > I HAVE read a lot of very good discussion supporting both sides. Nobody >is wrong. > This is what the whole KR net is about. We do not have to agree with > each >other, nor should we all agree on everything (that would be boring ). > I learned a lot about the two airfoils that I didn't know before. So > that >makes it all worthwhile. Look at the positive side of it, not the negative. > Stop and look at what we covered: Top speed > Cruise speed > Stall speed > Drag Vs Lift curves > Flaps > Now, as I see it, everybody that was following this learned at least one >thing. > That's good. There was no difference between this and standing around at >the airport working the pro's and con's of, let's say, fixed pitch Vs >constant speed props. > THIS IS WHAT WE ARE HERE FOR, at least I am. > To those who still think this was a SKUNK SPRAYING CONTEST, I'm sorry I >ever brought the subject up. And if you ever meet me at any of the flyins, >please don't ask for my opinion on something. I will answer and it may not be >the same as yours. > Just to show you how I don't worry about other peoples opinions (most >think I'm nuts) when the KR Twin is finished, my next project will be a >scaled down version of the B-17 with four 1834s for power. It works out to >around a 40ft wing span and holds 4 people. > That's what I believe in. Am I wrong? I don't think so. That's the great >thing about homebuilding. > Dream it, and make it happen. > It's good to have topics with some meat in then for a change. > Now everybody join hands, and sing the KR song.( maybe some of you > should >not sing, just hum) > Gary Hinkle (A/P) Middletown, Pa. > garykr2@cs.com > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org >To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 07:28 +0000 To: , From: Cc: Subject: RE: KR> New Wing Message-ID: <20001007003819.15292.qmail@relay1.teleport.com> Gary, Wait! What about a four engine KR inspired flying boat? Or a DC3? Building a KR inspires many new ideas ... think of Lancair! --Ross ----Original Message----- >From: =09GARYKR2@cs.com >To: =09krnet@mailinglists.org >Subj: =09KR> New Wing >Sent: =09Thursday, October 05, 2000 4:46 PM > > I was the person that started this so called "Fire Storm" By asking a >simple question. So far I have not seen the "Trashing" of anyone or either >wing. Nobody was swearing at or degrading each other. > I HAVE read a lot of very good discussion supporting both sides. Nobody >is wrong. > This is what the whole KR net is about. We do not have to agree with each >other, nor should we all agree on everything (that would be boring ). > I learned a lot about the two airfoils that I didn't know before. So that >makes it all worthwhile. Look at the positive side of it, not the negative. > Stop and look at what we covered: Top speed > Cruise speed > Stall speed > Drag Vs Lift curves > Flaps > Now, as I see it, everybody that was following this learned at least one >thing. > That's good. There was no difference between this and standing around at >the airport working the pro's and con's of, let's say, fixed pitch Vs >constant speed props. > THIS IS WHAT WE ARE HERE FOR, at least I am. > To those who still think this was a SKUNK SPRAYING CONTEST, I'm sorry I >ever brought the subject up. And if you ever meet me at any of the flyins, >please don't ask for my opinion on something. I will answer and it may not be >the same as yours. > Just to show you how I don't worry about other peoples opinions (most >think I'm nuts) when the KR Twin is finished, my next project will be a >scaled down version of the B-17 with four 1834s for power. It works out to >around a 40ft wing span and holds 4 people. > That's what I believe in. Am I wrong? I don't think so. That's the great >thing about homebuilding. > Dream it, and make it happen. > It's good to have topics with some meat in then for a change. > Now everybody join hands, and sing the KR song.( maybe some of you should >not sing, just hum) > Gary Hinkle (A/P) Middletown, Pa. > garykr2@cs.com > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org >To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 15:15:27 +0200 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Stefan B." Subject: Re: KR> Elevator hinges Message-ID: <39DDD06F.E968638B@wanadoo.fr> Mark Langford wrote: > > > Besides, are they "bushings" or are they "bearings" on Marty's plane? It > would have been nice to know that somebody sucessfully did it (and how) > before I built mine... > I am using rod end bearings but instead of eye bolts (impossible to get in the metric system here) I put 6061-T6 bent plates. This assembly was very successfully used here in the VW-powered Pottier designs on the elevator and the rudder. There are more than 100 of Pottier's flying all over Europe. There are 2 hinges on the rudder assembly and 3 on the elevator. I think the eye bolt installation is simpler but the principle is the same as above and it should work. Stefan Balatchev, Paris, France mailto:Stefan.Balatchev@wanadoo.fr ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 14:37:24 EDT To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> Elevator hinges Message-ID: In a message dated 10/6/00 8:05:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, langford@hiwaay.net writes: << JEAN VERON wrote: > I hate to even bring this up but N191MR has had rod end bushings long before > Dr. Dean mentioned them. >> The one thing that Dr. Dean did with the rod end bearing for elevator hinges is he drew it up on CAD and was able to find the exact center for the pivot point. Use the material listed on his web site and you will be able to achieve an extremely tight gap with the elevator pivoting dead center. Dana Overall 2000 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/hangar/7085/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 15:35:44 -0700 To: "Mark Jones" From: "ROBERT COOPER" Cc: Subject: Re: KR> Elevator hinges Message-ID: <000c01c02fe5$c55a0040$9e981e3f@pavilion> Mark It probably is overkill, but in my military aviation experience, we used a large conical washer as an additional safety factor in case the bearing failed, the large washer would still maintain contact. I know these bearings are very safe and not under the stress of a helicopter tail rotor pitch change link, but I just thought it was the thing to do. Jack Cooper mailto:kr2cooper@msn.com http://www.geocities.com/kr2cooper/ Fayetteville, NC. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Jones To: ROBERT COOPER Cc: Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 8:52 PM Subject: Re: KR> Elevator hinges > Jack, > The AN970 on the rod end through bolt is an overkill. Why do you need both 960 and 970 on each side of the bearing through bolt? When I installed mine, I did not feel the need except for one 960 on each side of the hinge arrangement. Someone please correct me if I am wrong here. > Mark Jones > > ROBERT COOPER wrote: > > > Netters > > I have been working on the horizontal stabalizer and eleverator spars. Tonight I installed the rod end bearings and eye bolts (Dr. Dean hinges). I used an 970 washers on each side of the elevator spar where the eye bolt goes through. I used a an 960 and an 970 washer on the bolt through the rod end bearing. My problem is that there is washer to washer contact on the two an 970 washers. The washers ar at right angles to each other and causes stiffness in the movement. I used 5 hinges and have contact on all 5 points. Has anyone else experienced this problem with the Dr. Dean setup? I am thinking that I will grind the edge off the washer on the elevator to prevent contact. Anyone see a problem with doing that? > > Jack Cooper > > mailto:kr2cooper@msn.com > > http://www.geocities.com/kr2cooper/ > > Fayetteville, NC. > > > - > > Mark Jones (N886MJ) > Wales, WI USA > E-mail me at mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com > Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at > http://sites.netscape.net/flykr2s/homepage > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 15:43:54 -0700 To: "JEAN VERON" , From: "ROBERT COOPER" Subject: Re: KR> Elevator hinges Message-ID: <002201c02fe6$e903d560$9e981e3f@pavilion> Jean Sorry, no offense meant. I got the information from Dr. Deans web site and have heard others refer to them as Dr. Dean hinges. Maybe they should be called Jean and Dean hinges or just simply rod end bearings. Jack Cooper mailto:kr2cooper@msn.com http://www.geocities.com/kr2cooper/ Fayetteville, NC. ----- Original Message ----- From: JEAN VERON To: ROBERT COOPER ; Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 9:56 PM Subject: Re: KR> Elevator hinges > I hate to even bring this up but N191MR has had rod end bushings long before > Dr. Dean mentioned them. Ok, go ahead and flame me personally don't take up > the net band width. > Jean > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ROBERT COOPER > To: > Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 1:33 AM > Subject: KR> Elevator hinges > > > Netters > I have been working on the horizontal stabalizer and eleverator spars. > Tonight I installed the rod end bearings and eye bolts (Dr. Dean hinges). I > used an 970 washers on each side of the elevator spar where the eye bolt > goes through. I used a an 960 and an 970 washer on the bolt through the rod > end bearing. My problem is that there is washer to washer contact on the two > an 970 washers. The washers ar at right angles to each other and causes > stiffness in the movement. I used 5 hinges and have contact on all 5 points. > Has anyone else experienced this problem with the Dr. Dean setup? I am > thinking that I will grind the edge off the washer on the elevator to > prevent contact. Anyone see a problem with doing that? > Jack Cooper > mailto:kr2cooper@msn.com > http://www.geocities.com/kr2cooper/ > Fayetteville, NC. > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 17:22:56 -0500 To: From: "Dean Collette" Subject: Re: KR> Elevator hinges Message-ID: <002b01c02fe3$fac6fb40$dcfafea9@TRAILING5EMP5Y> Yikes! I'm not sure how my name got attached to these hinges, but if they are my legacy to the KRNet building community, so be it. I have no idea who did it first, heck, I think it may have been Piper, but almost four years ago I started looking at a better way to do the hinges on the tail of that airplane. There was a rumor floating around about someone had used rod end bearings a long time ago, but nobody knew exactly who it was. I asked KRNet a couple of times and had no response. After looking at the situation a bit, I decided to build the RR-type hinges. Let's just say that the results were not exactly what I was looking for. Again I asked KRNet if anybody had any info on the REB method, and somebody pointed me to Steve Bennett. So, I gave ol' Steve a call, and found out that yes, indeed he did use REBs in the hinges on the back of his plane, but (here's the catch) he had to have them custom made. I looked into that, but at $80 a pop - that just wasn't going to get it. I knew I wanted to use 5 hinges on the elevator alone and that's in excess of $400 just for the freakin' hinges! I figured there had to be some off-the-shelf parts that could get the job done, but I just couldn't come up with the right combination. After Sun & Fun 2 years ago, a couple of friends, who knew I was working on the hinges, sent me a picture of some hardware they found, which got me to thinking about eyebolts. When I was digging through some old hardware one day, I came across an eyebolt that would mate with a REB that I had for a push rod . . . A little digging in the Wick's catalog for the right lengths and *presto* the KR REB elevator hinge was born. No magic - just luck, perseverance, and a little help from my friends. The key was drawing everything out on the CAD - that way, I knew it had to fit. I put 'em on my tail and was amazed at the results. A couple other guys I know have also tried them and seemed to be pleased. You try what you'd like. And, yes, I am still around - always have been, but these days I lurk as my job gets the majority of my attention. Dean Collette Milwaukee Wisconsin mailto:drdean@execpc.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 20:49:27 -0500 To: "ROBERT COOPER" , From: "JEAN VERON" Subject: Re: KR> Elevator hinges Message-ID: <004201c03000$d5361b00$34861a3f@computer> No, I didn't have anything to do with them. Mabey Martin and Dean hinges but I can claim no credit as I only found out about how he made his hinges when helping him with another project. Jean ----- Original Message ----- From: ROBERT COOPER To: JEAN VERON ; Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 5:43 PM Subject: Re: KR> Elevator hinges > Jean > Sorry, no offense meant. I got the information from Dr. Deans web site and > have heard others refer to them as Dr. Dean hinges. Maybe they should be > called Jean and Dean hinges or just simply rod end bearings. > Jack Cooper > mailto:kr2cooper@msn.com > http://www.geocities.com/kr2cooper/ > Fayetteville, NC. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: JEAN VERON > To: ROBERT COOPER ; > Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 9:56 PM > Subject: Re: KR> Elevator hinges > > > > I hate to even bring this up but N191MR has had rod end bushings long > before > > Dr. Dean mentioned them. Ok, go ahead and flame me personally don't take > up > > the net band width. > > Jean > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: ROBERT COOPER > > To: > > Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 1:33 AM > > Subject: KR> Elevator hinges > > > > > > Netters > > I have been working on the horizontal stabalizer and eleverator spars. > > Tonight I installed the rod end bearings and eye bolts (Dr. Dean hinges). > I > > used an 970 washers on each side of the elevator spar where the eye bolt > > goes through. I used a an 960 and an 970 washer on the bolt through the > rod > > end bearing. My problem is that there is washer to washer contact on the > two > > an 970 washers. The washers ar at right angles to each other and causes > > stiffness in the movement. I used 5 hinges and have contact on all 5 > points. > > Has anyone else experienced this problem with the Dr. Dean setup? I am > > thinking that I will grind the edge off the washer on the elevator to > > prevent contact. Anyone see a problem with doing that? > > Jack Cooper > > mailto:kr2cooper@msn.com > > http://www.geocities.com/kr2cooper/ > > Fayetteville, NC. > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 20:53:49 -0500 (CDT) To: ROBERT COOPER From: Steven Eberhart cc: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Elevator hinges Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Oct 2000, ROBERT COOPER wrote: > Jean > Sorry, no offense meant. I got the information from Dr. Deans web site and > have heard others refer to them as Dr. Dean hinges. Maybe they should be > called Jean and Dean hinges or just simply rod end bearings. > Jack Cooper How about "DC-3 hinges" since this is how the ailerons on the DC-3 are hinged. Seems like everything old is new again. Steve Eberhart mailto:newtech@newtech.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 08:27:34 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Kenneth Burch Subject: Sensitive Pitch? Message-ID: <39DDD346.8BCFCC49@bellsouth.net> I may be wrong since I have never buildt a real airplane but have built many models but the tailfeathers look too close to the wings on the KR. Is it pitch sensitive? Ken Burch ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 08:19:06 -0700 (PDT) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Frank Ross Subject: Re: KR> Sensitive Pitch? Message-ID: <20001006151906.10952.qmail@web4704.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kenneth Burch wrote: > I may be wrong since I have never buildt a real > airplane but have built > many models but the tailfeathers look too close to > the wings on the KR. > Is it pitch sensitive? > > Ken Burch Ken, I have never flown in or even sat in a KR, but I have been reading about them for about 6 years. You almost cant find anything written about the KR that doesn't mention it's pitch sensitivity. The KR-2 became the KR-2S after builders started successfully lengthening their planes to over come pitch sensitivity. Other approaches have also been tried, some successfully, some less so. You will see many answers to this question in the next few days as everyone will weigh in to explain their own personal ideas about the subject of KRs and pitch sensitivity. I think I will turn off my computer now. I wore out the delete button several days ago. ===== Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 15:27:33 -0300 To: Kenneth Burch , krnet@mailinglists.org From: James Sellars Subject: Re: KR> Sensitive Pitch? Message-Id: <4.3.0.20001006144413.00acfab0@mail.auracom.com> Ken; Yeah a little bit if your not up to speed, used to the standard trainers we all started with but if you get a ride or two in a KR-2 you will discover that it is responsive, not pitch sensitive, and thrilling not boring. Some of the modifications speak to this issue like stretching it, ("s" version) or using strakes, adjusting the wing incident may have some impact on this too. Or new limits on the C of G to keep it from being too aft loaded which tends to make it more sensitive. This is a "scout" fighter type plane, that works really well. The pilot needs to polish his skills is all. regards; Jim At 08:27 AM 10/6/00 -0500, Kenneth Burch wrote: >I may be wrong since I have never buildt a real airplane but have built >many models but the tailfeathers look too close to the wings on the KR. >Is it pitch sensitive? > >Ken Burch > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org >To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 07:15:48 -0700 To: "'KRnet'" From: "Seifert, Richard E" Subject: For those disgusted with WW Message-Id: Jim Gogniat asked where we could get corvair prop hubs without going through WW. Go to the source of this Corvair conversion exercise (and I don't mean WW). Bernie Pietenpole built, flew, and sold plans for the Hub, motormount and other corvair conversion information for the Pietenpole long before WW. They were a breathtaking $25.00 six months ago when I got mine. The quality of the drawings far exceeded anything I've seen from WW, and if you want one machined from cast aluminum a guy named Vie Kaplin back there will do the job at about half the WW price. I decided to machine my own out of 2024T3 aluminum, but a friend of mine ( a picture of his KR is on WW's site for advertisement) has been using Vie's cast hub for 140 hr's now with no problem. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 07:30:13 -0700 To: flykr2s@execpc.com From: Lon V Boothby Cc: kr-n899eb@mindspring.com, vincechrisovergis@yahoo.com, krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: KR-2 for sale Message-ID: <20001006.073024.-4129927.2.LBoothby@juno.com> Well it is Friday, so I thought I'd post my KR-2 for sale. I bought the project from a family - the builder had passed away. It has excellent workmanship. The fuselage is ready for the premolded forward and aft decks and canopy to be installed. It sits on positive locking retractable gear, tail wheel is installed. It has a Continental 0-170 engine already mounted on it. I also have premolded wing tips for it. The tail feathers are on and all the controll surfaces are hooked up the the stick and rudder. Controls are also hooked up for for the flaps. After having this for a few months, I realize that I am not very good with wood working, so I am not going to attempt to finish it. So I will take $3500 for the entire project. I am located in Spokane, Washington. Thanks, Lon ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 15:19:01 +0100 To: "Albert Pecoraro" From: "macwood" Cc: "krnet user group" Subject: Re: RE: KR> I don't get it Message-ID: <007101c02fa7$186526a0$ebccb0c2@tinypc> ----- Original Message ----- From: Albert Pecoraro To: Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 8:45 PM Subject: FWD: RE: KR> I don't get it > << ...>>> > > Steve and KR-List Members, > > I don't get it either. From a philosophical perspective it appears that we > are experiencing what many wise people in the past have said about "change" > - "Change creates its own resistance". It seems paradoxical. > > Another paradox about "change" - In order for things to remain the same, > they must change". > > When a new concept is introduced to a group of humans, whether it be as > small as an Assembly Team in a manufacturing plant or as large as an entire > nation, approximately 20% of the group will accept the change instantly. The > other 80% is divided 60/20 - 60% are unsure and confused, unable to make an > "accept/reject decision", 20% reject the change. Usually, the leader of the > group will try to use the 20% Accepters to influence the 60% Undecided. > (*And if you want scientific proof for these numbers, there are plenty of > social studies that have been conducted to support these numbers. You can > also find these numbers in Management texts that deal with "Change in the > Workplace". As a matter of fact, there is a book called "The Portable MBA" > that talks about the acceptance %'s when introducing a new product in the > market. As soon as I find it I shall post it on my website. That way, if you > have any questions about the "fuzzy" numbers, you can contact the author who > quotes the study. Or use the Internet ... it is a great research tool.) > > Now, having said that ... if you have read the findings of the AS504xx > airfoil studies and are curious and thrilled to try something new (like I > did) - > congratulations. If you haven't decided whether you are going to use the new > airfoil or use the RAF48 - congratulations. If you are vehemently opposed at > the new airfoil and wish to use the RAF48 airfoil - congratulations. Chances > are, when you finish your airplane with whichever airfoil/wing ... it will > fly. > > For the record: I already have the templates made for the new AS5046 airfoil > that I will be incorporating on my "Pecoraro KR-2S" (notice the name ... it > is unique - I will be the only one in the world to have a "Pecoraro KR-2S"). > The "Pecoraro KR-2S" also boasts non-stock {forward deck, turtledeck, > kevlar-reinforced cockpit, canopy, cowling, gear, control system, and most > importantly ... a widened cockpit}. > > So, having said that, are we going to waste our time and have a discussion > about: > > - the new forward deck vs the old forward deck > - the new turtledeck vs the old turtledeck > - the new canopy vs the old canopy > - the new gear vs the old gear > - the new control system vs the old control system > - the new cockpit dimensions vs the old cockpit dimensions > > What else is new? ... Well, I've spent the last 4 days determining all the > hardware requirements for my control system. (i.e. bolts, nuts, washers, > turnbuckles, rod-end bearings, eye-bolts, etc.). As you may have noticed, > this detailed information is missing from the plans. I believe it is time > for another revision, but it isn't up to me to decide that. > > On a lighter note ... In case you don't receive the Aircraft Spruce and > Specialty Newsletter, they can now custom-build canopies for your very own > homebuilt (if you are building a stock KR, then you don't need to read any > further). I have already sent a note asking for a quotation. I don't know > what specifications they need as I am awaiting their reply. I will share my > response with the list when I receive it. > > >> HAVING PROBLEMS FINDING CANOPIES FOR YOUR HOMEBUILT? > Bubble canopies for your Long-EZ and Cozy MkIV kits at reasonable prices > are no longer a problem. We have an excellent source of custom made > optically perfect canopies to fit your canard and other aircraft. Custom > canopies can be built to customer specifications. We would be happy to > quote on your specifications. > > Until then, I am not going to get my a$$ all tied up in a knot over debating > an issue on which I have already made my mind up on. Do whatever you want. > However, keep in mind that I support any efforts to enhance the KR. But that > doesn't mean that I am "slamming" RR. After all, they did provide the basis > for the plane that I am building and Jeanette was incredibly nice to me when > I called her for information on the KR. To be quite honest, 50% of the > reason I decided to go with the KR was due to Jeanette's kindness when I > called and asked her some questions about the KR. The other 50% of the > reason I decided to go with the KR (instead of other planes I was > considering: Pulsar XP, Glasair II RG, GP-4, Finchbird - which are all fine > planes) were economy, ease of building, and potential to modify to suit my > tastes (within reasonable and calculated design limits). I think we commonly > refer to these as "options". (*And my percentages are not "fuzzy" math > either). > > Bottom line: I just want to build my plane my way and get it up in the air. > Build your plane the way you want to. I hope to see yours in the flight-line > too some day. > > Regards, > > Albert Pecoraro > Pecoraro KR-2S (30%) > http://home.earthlink.net/~gryphonflier > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 15:31:48 +0100 To: From: "macwood" Cc: "krnet user group" Subject: Re: KR> A comment on modifications to the KR, ie: "New Airfoil" Message-ID: <007201c02fa7$1b0489a0$ebccb0c2@tinypc> I seem to remember from a very old Newsletter that a former Boeing engineer(sorry) said that there were problems with carbon fibre,in that if the glass became chipped and exposed the fibre,there was a tendancy to "wick" moisture and cause delamination. Anybody heard that one? I've seen nothing since, so it could just be an engineer thing. Cheers, Mac UK ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 12:56 AM Subject: Re: KR> A comment on modifications to the KR, ie: "New Airfoil" > Thanks for the information on the Carbon Fiber. This is the type of things > that should be brought up on the net, to help us all make better > deaccessions. If Carbon fiber is that much better, I'm sold. > > Tony > Mission Viejo, CA > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 10:44:31 -0500 To: "krnet user group" From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> A comment on modifications to the KR, ie: "New Airfoil" Message-ID: <000d01c02fac$52597a50$58e6a58c@tbe.com> Mac Wood wrote: > I seem to remember from a very old Newsletter that a former Boeing > engineer(sorry) said that there were problems with carbon fibre,in that if > the glass became chipped and exposed the fibre,there was a tendancy to > "wick" moisture and cause delamination. That's Kevlar you're thinking about... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 09:45:51 -0700 To: From: "Steven Williams" Subject: Ideas on kr Message-ID: <011001c02fb4$e34bfa80$b35f31d0@sofast.net> ------=_NextPart_000_010D_01C02F7A.36CB90C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Steven Williams=20 To: krnet@mailinglists.org=20 Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 9:33 AM After reading about all these proposed changes, hearing about the old sets of plans that are being sold, I am asking just where are the people who sell the plans with changes? Is there anyone who owns the rights to the KR giving any input or = assistance to these newer ideas? Why buy plans from them if there are no help forth coming on new ideas? ------=_NextPart_000_010D_01C02F7A.36CB90C0-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 11:21:29 -0700 (PDT) To: 'KRnet' From: Frank Ross Subject: GuruNet Message-ID: <20001006182129.27385.qmail@web4705.mail.yahoo.com> Netters, It is Friday...a new gadget for internet exploring, instant information retrieval, all kinds of great things is at www.gurunet.com. You will find it very helpful ===== Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 13:49:20 -0600 To: Oscar Zuniga From: cartera CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> getting started/sticking with it Message-ID: <39DE2CC0.44E929E2@cuug.ab.ca> Oscar Zuniga wrote: > > G'day, netters; > > >From another one of those "time warp" KRNet digest subscr*bers (me)- a few > comments, since it's Friday. > > First comment: I see many a post from somebody who is like I was, "lurking > and listening", planning to get started one day. My comment is, don't wait! > Do something, no matter how small, to get started. Order a set of plans. > Start building up an engine. Get materials lists. Make sketches. > Whatever... just start something. You probably will never have more shop > space, or free time, or loose cash, than you have now. Besides, you and I > aren't getting any younger, so just do it. I must admit I only did a half a > jump, starting construction of a simpler project first before I start the > KR-2S, but believe me- if you wait to get started, it will be a long, long > time till you lift off of a runway. I haven't spent more than a few hundred > dollars every couple of months by spreading my project out over a little > time (except buying the engine). I got most of my wood for free, and by > patient scrounging, have slowly gotten things I need without large cash > outlays. > > Second comment: To the guys who have been sanding old paint off for 4 years > (not picking on anybody here; just an example)- just try to do a little > something every day, or at least every week. If you let the project get > cold for a month or two, it will never fly. There is something about > putting your hands on a tool or a part and doing something in the shop, even > for a few minutes, that keeps the thread going. The endless > sanding-filling-priming-sanding-filling routine will truly never end if you > don't stick with it. Keep dreaming; but remember, it's easier to keep the > dream alive if you're in the shop actually seeing and working on something. > > Last comment: When I started my "KR construction trainer" project, I firmly > resolved to build it exactly to plans, simple and plain, and as light as > possible. Guess what? I've spent more time detailing and modifying than I > have spent building to plans. It just happens! If you have the mental > make-up and the desire to build and fly, you will probably end up > "customizing", tweaking, modifying, and otherwise making your airplane just > the way you want it. It's like cars or boats or guns or motorcycles, or > whatever your hobby is: your mind starts trying to figure out how to improve > things, make yours a little more finely honed or tighter grouping or > whatever. So it is with "the wing". It is the product of inquisitive and > innovative minds and hands, and it is for those who want it. I want a > Corvair engine in my KR, you want a 2180 VW. I want conventional gear, you > want tricycle. I want minimal electrics, you want a full panel. So just > get in the buffet line, take what you like, sit down, and start enjoying the > food! Yeah, you can tell me how much you hate the vegetables or applesauce > I have on my plate, but I might not care for what's on your plate either. > And at least we have choices! > > Oscar Zuniga > Medford, Oregon > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.geocities.com/taildrags/ > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org Hello Oscar and the KR Gang, 100% in your philosophy, no one should knock anyone else who wants to build his way. We all want to get up in the air and have different levels of proficiency. This net is to learn from each other and to get that little sweetheart in the air. Happy Flying and Building, Good Luck! -- Adrian VE6AFY Calgary, Alberta Mailto:cartera@cuug.ab.ca http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~cartera ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 12:54:58 -0700 (PDT) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Frank Ross Subject: shipping Message-ID: <20001006195458.12482.qmail@web4703.mail.yahoo.com> Netheads, Who do you contact to ship oversize, but light weight objects. I know that businesses are not paying what Fed Ex wants to ship a canopy from CA to TX. I was quoted $800 for a 4'x4'x2' box weighing 65lbs (they don't care what it really weighs, their computer says a 4'x4'x2' box WILL weigh 450lbs). To ship a 15' x 8' x4' box, regardless of weight, across the country is only a little over $8000. We are not talking about air mail here, just plain old surface transportation that can take as long as needed. Maybe some of you have some better knowlege of how shipping of oversize objects is done by folks who do it for a living. Any ideas? Thanks, ===== Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 20:46:08 GMT To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: if Ken Rand were alive... Message-ID: I forgot one last little thought. If Ken Rand were alive today and were on the KRNet, you guys who knew him personally, please tell me: would he still be flying his original retract gear, pull-grab brakes, standard-width cabin, Dacron-skinned, KR? From what I have read of Ken, he was constantly trying new things and new ideas on his airplane. I'd like to think that he would be out there feeding the frenzy, keeping his creation alive and developing, and maybe incorporating other builders' ideas into his marketed kits. Who knows; we might be up to the KR-22 or something by now. Jeanette Rand is to be admired for continuing Ken's business as successfully as she and her daughter have over these years. Simple, straightforward, and still around (unlike the many, many companies who are/were way more "high tech" but aren't around today). Sadly, however, Jeanette is not a homebuilder so she may not share our consuming desire to be out there building and flying, and I'm not sure she stays awake many nights (like I do) thinking about how she's going to assemble something or what to work on next, or how much her plane will weigh, or how to arrange things on her panel, or if an Altimizer carb might work better than a Zenith, or.... you get my drift? G'night, folks. Happy Friday. Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.geocities.com/taildrags/ _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 18:17:13 -0500 To: CorvAIRCRAFT , KR-Net From: Mark Jones Subject: VIDEOS Message-ID: <39DE5D79.CA914738@execpc.com> --------------709157AA91B4D9208E445578 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Friends, I am posting this again since it's Friday. Response so far has been great for these videos. I have sent them to South Africa, Canada, Brazil, Greece, Australia and of course the United States... I am making copies of my home videos again and letting them go for $10 each including postage within the USA. I have the following to offer: William Wynne (TCA) 1999 KR Gathering Corvair engine forum. $10 each. This is of William giving a one hour presentation on the Corvair engine. Lighting in the video is a little bright but the audio is good. There is a fifteen minute additional segment of a Corvair engine running on a test stand which is excellent footage. KR Gathering 1999. $10 each. This is a one hour video and shows all the 17 or so KR's which flew in. Almost everyone who attended was captured on this tape. Excellent footage and awesome fly by footage. KR Gathering 2000. $10 Each This is a one hour video. Seven KR's made it this year and I have captured it all on video. The fly by footage on this tape is excellent. Has anyone ever said the KR looks like a small fighter plane in the air? Well, the footage of Marty Roberts and his beautiful KR-2 doing fly bys at what, 175 to 200 mph, will get your blood boiling. There is also very good footage of the awards banquet on this tape and those singing pilots. By the way, I am making these available only as a gesture, not to profit in any way. The $10 each barely covers the cost and labor involved in getting these out to you. If you need motivation, memories of the Gatherings, Corvair engine info or if you were not there and wish you could have been, then these are for you. Email me with your request at mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com or simply mail your request and check to: Mark Jones 615 Wexford Circle Wales, WI 53183 Thanks to everyone who has ordered these so far. -- Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://sites.netscape.net/flykr2s/homepage --------------709157AA91B4D9208E445578-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 19:28:13 -0400 To: "KRnet" From: "Phil Maynard" Subject: Re: KR> flaps Message-ID: <002501c02fed$19ad0d20$1b01a8c0@amd500> Mark, I don't know if you looked at my plans but what I was trying to do sounds similar. Modifying the centersection to increase the size of the flaps. The ailerons are so effective that they can be shortened and could also be extended to the rear spar to make up for the loss of length. Phil Maynard > Guenther Bryce wrote: > > > The KR has a low energy > > high speed theory basis. Light weight no complicated > > Flap system that really has contributes very little to > > performance with a very respectable top speed and fuel > > header tank with a very resonable duration. > > Although flaps did not come down from the mountaintop with Ken on the first > go-round, he is later quoted in issue #39 of the Newsletter (Sept 78) as > saying that he didn't know he needed them until he had them. Orma > (AviationMech) told me at the Gathering that he originally had no flaps, and > added them later (I think that's what he said), for a dramatic difference in > landing attitude (improving visibility), if nothing else. The plans state > that you are trading a little weight and complexity for improved glide > control, slower landing speed, and increased drag during landing. At the > same time I've heard other KR owners with flaps call them "useless" and I > even heard of one guy glassing them over. Kinda makes me wonder. > > Of course given the tiny size, I can understand why they might be relatively > ineffective. The obvious answer is to make them much larger. The easy way > to do that is using the bent spar setup where your center spar bends up > right at the fuselage and continues straight from fuselage to tip. My flaps > will cost me less than 10 pounds (a little more than the weight penalty of > the tiny stock KR flaps), and I'll have a considerably slower landing speed, > as well as the other advantages Ken mentioned. Give me a little while and > I'll be able to tell you for sure how much difference large flaps make on a > KR2S (see http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/99102912.jpg). Call me goofy, > but I figure there's a reason why probably 98% of all airplanes are equiped > with flaps, especially the fast ones... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 19:46:05 -0400 To: "KRnet" From: "Phil Maynard" Subject: bent spar Message-ID: <003a01c02fef$988f6f00$1b01a8c0@amd500> ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C02FCE.1078E220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't know if this has already been addressed as I've only been = getting krnet for a few weeks, but thinking about a bent spar I would be = concerned that the top chord will have more of a tendency to buckle than = a straight spar would. I would double or triple the spacers between the = top and bottom chords along the length of the bend. Phil Maynard ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C02FCE.1078E220-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 07:43 +0000 To: "Spannie" , From: Cc: Subject: RE: KR> Hallo all KR-netters Message-ID: <20001007003818.15289.qmail@relay1.teleport.com> >1) Can I use any solvents to "strip" the current paintjob down to the raw fibreglass, or do I have to go the elbow-grease way and sand it down by hand? Sand..sand...sand... >2) What can I use to make small repairs, eg. to fill nicks on the leading edge? Epoxy & microballons. >3) Who does lightweight, aimed at the homebuilder (affordable), avionics? Terra/by Trimble and UPS avionics(formerly Apollo?) both make lightweigt COM/GPS and transponders. Terra may not be in business any longer, but they build terrific stuff! > >Enough for now. > >Johan de Jong >spannie@netactive.co.za >Any South Africans on the net? Where are you? > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 18:03:22 -0700 To: , "Spannie" , From: "Patricia Burger" Subject: Re: KR>Filling the nicks etc. Message-ID: <002101c02ffa$657d16c0$703a19d0@default> I am surprized no one has suggested Poly Fiber's Superfill --- it is much superior to epoxy and balloons and only 10% as heavy. Sands great too. Bill ====== Pat & Bill Burger ====== Roseville, California pbburger@inreach.com -----Original Message----- From: rossy@teleport.com To: Spannie ; krnet@mailinglists.org Date: Friday, October 06, 2000 5:54 PM Subject: RE: KR> Hallo all KR-netters > > > >1) Can I use any solvents to "strip" the current paintjob down to the raw fibreglass, or do I have to go the elbow-grease way and sand it down by hand? >Sand..sand...sand... > >2) What can I use to make small repairs, eg. to fill nicks on the leading edge? >Epoxy & microballons. > >3) Who does lightweight, aimed at the homebuilder (affordable), avionics? > Terra/by Trimble >and >UPS avionics(formerly Apollo?) >both make lightweigt COM/GPS and > transponders. > Terra may not be in business any >longer, but they build terrific stuff! > > > > > > >Enough for now. > > > >Johan de Jong > >spannie@netactive.co.za > >Any South Africans on the net? Where are you? > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org >To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 21:25:23 EDT To: pbburger@inreach.com, rossy@teleport.com, spannie@netactive.co.za, krnet@mailinglists.org From: Horn2004@aol.com Subject: Re: KR>Filling the nicks etc. Message-ID: In a message dated 10/6/00 7:59:29 PM, pbburger@inreach.com writes: <> I didn't recommend it since it sounded like he just was dealing with some nicks on the leading edge. Didn't see much point in throwing lots of money at something which could be done for $5 worth of epoxy and microballoons. Steve Horn horn2004@aol.com Dallas, TX ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 20:37:51 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR>Filling the nicks etc. Message-ID: <003601c02fff$353055e0$f2de8e18@300emachine> > I am surprized no one has suggested Poly Fiber's Superfill --- it is much > superior to epoxy and balloons and only 10% as heavy. 10% as heavy? Sorry, but I can't let that one slide. If you're mixing your epoxy/micro 10 times heavier than SuperFil, you've got way too much lead in the mix. The two should be quite similar in weight and consistency, or you're not doing something right. I've been using SuperFil, Aeropoxy Lite, and micro for years, and just recently made a point of using all three on my wings just for comparison's sake. I personally think that micro and SuperFil have very similar sanding properties, and Aeropoxy Lite is even easier to sand, but it all depends on how much micro you add to the epoxy. If you add enough micro to the epoxy so that it sands as easily as Aeropoxy Lite, it spreads with air bubbles encapsulated, so that you'll have to come back and fill it with something else later. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************