From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 23 Oct 2000 01:59:11 -0000 Issue 112 Date: Sunday, October 22, 2000 5:59 PM krnet Digest 23 Oct 2000 01:59:11 -0000 Issue 112 Topics (messages 2643 through 2663): Any KR-2 builders near Chicago? 2643 by: Larry E Re: Propeller Balance, KISS 2644 by: Robert E. Moser 2645 by: cartera Re: Polyurethane Fillers? huh? ... 2646 by: Albert Pecoraro 2663 by: Laheze.aol.com Re: Polyester fillers & epoxy. 2647 by: Tracy & Carol O'Brien Re: Polyurethane Fillers ... 2648 by: KR2616TJ.aol.com Re: wing attachments 2649 by: KR2616TJ.aol.com Starting over ... 2650 by: Albert Pecoraro Regional Builder Support Groups 2651 by: The House of D's 2652 by: Lon V Boothby 2653 by: The House of D's hi from new zealand 2654 by: philip 2655 by: philip WIVES!!! 2656 by: Schmidt, Curtis Growing Pains 2657 by: bob 2659 by: JEAN VERON Re: KR+AD4- Growing Pains 2658 by: Mark Langford 2660 by: Mark Langford Re: Growing Pains, Tail group size 2661 by: RONALD.FREIBERGER Re: wives 2662 by: George Allen Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 18:03:56 -0700 (PDT) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Larry E Subject: Any KR-2 builders near Chicago? Message-ID: <20001021010356.24089.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, I am looking for a KR-2 builder in the Chicago area to show me their plane while it is under construction or flying. If your near the Chicago area and if you can spare an hour or two on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon to talk with me about building and licensing the worlds greatest home built I would be happy to buy you gas or beer and pizza to say thanks. I would be willing to meet you at any local airport 60-70 miles from Chicago on the weekend. I might even consider a drive to central Wisconsin if the weather and time of year are right for a weekend up there. I think I have found the right plane and I now want to find a local builder for moral support. Any help or assistance is greatly appreciated. Thank you, Larry Ello __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 21:09:51 -0400 To: "KR Network" From: "Robert E. Moser" Subject: Re: KR> Re: Propeller Balance, KISS Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001020210842.00b2b850@viper> Hi Netters, This will achieve static balance for the prop. That isn't a bad approximation of dynamic balance, but you'll still (probably) have a vibration. Consult a mechanical engineering text for nauseous detail on this. Essentially, this is why your auto tires must be rotationally (dynamically) balanced, not just statically balanced. The ME text will also explain why at most two weights are required for the balancing procedure. Robert At 01:08 PM 10/19/00 -0700, you wrote: >--- cartera wrote: >Another simple hint, > > want to make > > perfect balance for your prop. Use a string in the > > middle of your prop > > and see which tip is lighter/heavier. The big boys > > use this method when > > field testing rotors for balance on their choppers > > without sophisticated > > equipment, > > KISS, KISS. THAT'S ALL FOLKS!! > > -- > > Adrian VE6AFY > > Calgary, Alberta > > Mailto:cartera@cuug.ab.ca > > http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~cartera > >Adrian, >I'm sorry, I don't follow your propeller balance test. >How does a string attached to the prop hub tell me >which tip is heavier? I could understand >longer/shorter? Could you elaborate? Thanks > > >===== >Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. >http://im.yahoo.com/ > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org >To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 21:29:06 -0600 To: "Robert E. Moser" From: cartera CC: KR Network Subject: Re: KR> Re: Propeller Balance, KISS Message-ID: <39F10D82.1AC4D094@cuug.ab.ca> "Robert E. Moser" wrote: > > Hi Netters, > > This will achieve static balance for the prop. That isn't a bad > approximation of dynamic balance, but you'll still (probably) have a > vibration. Consult a mechanical engineering text for nauseous detail on > this. Essentially, this is why your auto tires must be rotationally > (dynamically) balanced, not just statically balanced. The ME text will > also explain why at most two weights are required for the balancing procedure. Hello Experts, Glad to see that we balance wheels here also. Mark now I can see no matter how much experience one has or maturity, there is someone that wants to outdo one with more knowledge. I only passing along what other experts told me they did in the field. That is how I balanced all the props I build and suprisingly no vibrations, how come???? -- Adrian VE6AFY Calgary, Alberta Mailto:cartera@cuug.ab.ca http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~cartera ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 00:25:44 -0400 To: From: "Albert Pecoraro" Subject: Re: KR> Polyurethane Fillers? huh? ... Message-ID: <001c01c03b16$fc130c80$90d4b23f@steelcase.com> Netters: Boy, was that a "brain fart" or what?! I made a mistake ... I meant to say polyESTER, not polyURETHANE. I've never heard of polyurethane fillers either. What the heck was on my mind?! Anyhow, I still would like to know if polyESTER-based fillers are prone to shrinkage and cracking over time. If so, I don't think I will use this type of filler on my aircraft. BTW: Is this really a non-issue? Should it be an automatic decision to use epoxy-based fillers if you are using epoxy resins? ... Sorry if I'm wasting bandwidth here ... I'm just trying to learn. Thanks. Albert. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Eason" To: "Albert Pecoraro" ; Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 5:05 PM Subject: Re: KR> Polyurethane Fillers ... > I've never heard of polyurethane fillers, polyester base filler yes, is this > something new? > Bondo is a polyester resin base filler. > > KRron > > -----Original Message----- > From: Albert Pecoraro > To: krnet@mailinglists.org > Date: Friday, October 20, 2000 3:41 PM > Subject: KR> Polyurethane Fillers ... > > > >KRNetters, > > > >I was reading through the PolyFiber brochure last night (the one that was > >given free at the KR Gathering composite forum put on by Dana Overall), and > >I noticed that polyurethane fillers are not recommended over epoxy > >structures because these fillers shrink over time and could come off, and > >when they do they come off in chunks, especially in high flex areas. > > > >This has me a bit concerned because I had posed the question a while back > >about the compatibility of polyurethane fillers over epoxy structures. The > >responses I received indicated that this would/should not pose any problems > >later on provided that the surface is prepared properly, the filler is > mixed > >thoroughly and is given ample time to dry/set before attempting any > sanding. > > > >Also, the brochure stressed that filler is for "filling the gaps" in a > >composite structure and not for "building it up". I assume that 1/16" is > the > >recommended max buildup thickness, but I have heard others say that they > >have built up to even 1/4" in some cases without any problems. > > > >I applied some polyurethane filler to the forward deck last week to > practice > >working with it - before I read the brochure. I have a 4" wide band in the > >center from front to back, maximum depth 1/16". > > > >Q's: If I decide to switch to an epoxy-based filler, should I remove as > much > >of the polyurethane filler as possible and do it over again? Can I switch > to > >an epoxy-based filler and join it with the polyurethane filler? Should I > >just continue to use the polyurethane filler on the rest of the forward > deck > >since it is not a high flex area of the aircraft? ... > > > >Thanks > > > >Albert Pecoraro > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > >To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 21:58:35 EDT To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Laheze@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> Polyurethane Fillers? huh? ... Message-ID: Albert, Just remember that theoretically when you are using epoxy you should stick with epoxy for filling and leveling. Usually polyester will not stick to epoxy very well, but epoxy will stick to polyester. Bondo is a polyester based system as you know and I personally would not use it on an epoxy surface. I think I would remove as much of the polyester as possible before continuing. Yes polyester does shrink. Look at prefab cowlings and other parts guys sell, after a while you will begin to see the fiberglass weave showing through because the polyester resin has shrunk. I am sure there are products produced that are polyester based that have the claim of sticking to anything but why chance it ? As you know, the finishing process is way too much work to experiment with. I remember talking to a guy at Oshkosh who had painted his newly built Glassair RG with a new water base paint. A few months later it began to crack all over as the paint began to shrink. He had to remove all of the paint and start all over with a different system. What a waste of time, money, and most of all a lot of elbo grease. Larry Howell laheze@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 21:58:27 -0700 To: "Albert Pecoraro" , From: Tracy & Carol O'Brien Subject: Re: KR> Polyester fillers & epoxy. Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20001020215827.0073bdf0@localaccess.com> At 12:25 AM 10/21/2000 -0400, Albert Pecoraro wrote: >Netters: > >Boy, was that a "brain fart" or what?! I made a mistake ... I meant to say >polyESTER, not polyURETHANE. I've never heard of polyurethane fillers >either. What the heck was on my mind?! > >Anyhow, I still would like to know if polyESTER-based fillers are prone to >shrinkage and cracking over time. If so, I don't think I will use this type >of filler on my aircraft. Albert, et al, Basic rule for epoxies and polyesters: epoxies can over epoxy and polyester products, but polyester products should not be used over epoxies. The reason for this is that any unreacted amines present in the epoxy can prevent the polyester product from fully curing. This can cause anything from a sticky mess to a poor bond under what otherwise appears to be a good lamination, etc. Tracy O'Brien ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 08:23:09 EDT To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> Polyurethane Fillers ... Message-ID: In a message dated 10/20/00 4:41:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gryphonflier@earthlink.net writes: << brochure stressed that filler is for "filling the gaps" in a composite structure and not for "building it up". I assume that 1/16" is the recommended max buildup thickness, but I have heard others say that they have built up to even 1/4" in some cases without any problems. >> In preparation for forums I have done for Poly Fiber I have a built up structure that is 3/4" thick using SuperFil. This test panel is about 14-15 months old and shows no sign of shrinkage. I would not recommend this thickness as an acceptable procedure for airplane usage, but it will work. I don't have the info in front of me right now but 1/4" on a flat surface is probably pushing the envelope and I would not recommend going over that. One other thing I have done is lay one layer of glass over SuperFil and smoothing the edges of the layup out real well with peel ply. Over a large area, I like this procedure. Stick with epoxy on epoxy. Dana Overall 2000 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/hangar/7085/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 08:28:29 EDT To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> wing attachments Message-ID: << The best and easiest way to make the holes the proper size is to just put a 3/l6 drill bit into your hand drill >> Guys, do yourself a great favor and never use a hand drill on your KR. Back to that "homebuilt's are constructed better than spam cans" thread, you think Beech or Cessna hand drill anything?????? If it metal, bench drill smaller and Reamer, Reamer, Reamer......there I said it three time so it must be the truth:-) Dana Overall 2000 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/hangar/7085/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 10:47:42 -0400 To: From: "Albert Pecoraro" Subject: Starting over ... Message-ID: <000b01c03b6d$e0026020$47d4b23f@steelcase.com> Netters: After reading the responses to my "polyESTER filler over epoxy" question, I am convinced that I did not make the right decision. Therefore, I have decided to discard my forward deck and turtledeck and start over again. Even though they were my practice pieces I am not pleased with the results, so they are not going to end up on my airplane - end of story. That's why it's called experimental - I experimented with a couple methods and materials and I am not satisfied with the conclusion. So, it's back to the lab to experiment some more. This time I am going to use deck cloth on the outermost layer as a pinhole filler and to shield the kevlar fibers when it's time to sand. I made a small test piece last week using a piece of 4"x4"x1/2" thick pink foam, one layer of 6 oz E-glass and one layer of deck cloth on top. I used 4 mil plastic (as per Mark Langford's method) to squeegee out the air bubbles and excess epoxy, then let it cure. The end product was incredibly smooth and flat and required very little sanding. The weave was completely filled and most likely wouldn't require any filler. But if it did, I would use epoxy filler, not polyESTER. I am sure Video Bob is laughing his a$$ off right now because he came by one night to look at my project and recommended I rebuild the two decks. I guess I should have listened to him - he was right, I was wrong. Thanks guys. Happy building, or in my case, Happy Rebuilding! ;-) Albert Pecoraro ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 10:19:20 -0500 To: From: "The House of D's" Subject: Regional Builder Support Groups Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C03B48.600FB4A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looking to see if there is any interest in developing a database of KR owners, builders and interested people. It would allow us to find others with common interest in the same geographical area. I live in the center of Missouri (Ozarks). The closest EAA chapter is over 50 away. I have a KR1 that is very well built by Keith Campbell in Boone, IA. I am happy with the plane, but as I am approaching the prime of my life (now on the top side of 50), the waist bands in my pants is not the only thing shrinking. It must be the climate in the hanger! Now that weight is growing faster than my grandkids, I am looking at alternatives. I am now thinking there might be some advantages to building a 2/2S but know my limitations in construction talent. A database of builders or wannabes like me would allow us to pool talent and understand ALL of the great tips shared on the KRNet. Any techies that know enough about web pages to see if there is enough interest? ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C03B48.600FB4A0-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 08:24:09 -0700 To: durosset@fidnet.com From: Lon V Boothby Cc: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Regional Builder Support Groups Message-ID: <20001021.082410.-3721261.0.LBoothby@juno.com> I like the idea. I have often wished there was someone in my area that I could get some tips from...and maybe there is, I just don't know it. Lon ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 11:05:08 -0500 To: From: "The House of D's" Subject: Re: KR> Regional Builder Support Groups Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C03B4E.C6362920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Guess I should have signed my note...thanks for pointing it out Darryl DuRossette Richland, MO (Near Fort Leonard Wood ("Lost in the Woods") and Lake of the Ozarks.) ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C03B4E.C6362920-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 05:03:45 +1300 To: From: "philip" Subject: hi from new zealand Message-ID: <002401c03b78$7fe80400$c47837d2@philxxx> ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C03BE5.74C83000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hi i am new to the building of planes thing.....is the K2 ONE easy to = build from plans.....regards philxxx@xtra.co.nz ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C03BE5.74C83000-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 05:22:14 +1300 To: From: "philip" Subject: hi from new zealand Message-ID: <004d01c03b7b$1621bd60$c47837d2@philxxx> ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C03BE8.0A0F4C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hi i got it wrong ...here i go again.....is the KR ONE' easy to build = from plans.......for a first time builder .....email philxxx@xtra.co.nz ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C03BE8.0A0F4C00-- ------------------------------ Date: 21 Oct 2000 09:18:00 -0700 To: "krnet@mailinglists.org" From: "Schmidt, Curtis" Subject: WIVES!!! Message-ID: <00023B40@kaydon.com> Hey guys: Just dropping a word to the folks that have wives, first of all I had to "c= onvert" my hanger/shop back to a garage last week so we could have a (garba= ge) garage sale, this meant my airplane had to find a new home for a few da= ys! Luckily the house next door just became vacant so I managed to get a ke= y and put MOST of the airplane in their garage! The wing spars went to the= basement along with a few odds and ends like tools, bolt organizers and su= ch. All was looking pretty good except I just didn't have a place for the 1= 834 VW, besides, its not the easiest thing to move around so I just rolled = it back to a corner and didn't think much more about it! Well being the supportive husband that I THINK I am, I proceeded to help se= t up all the "stuff" the 'OL lady thought we didn't need anymore! (must say= I agreed with her on the things she chose) all was looking good Thursday evening when we decided we'd had enough. Friday morning comes and I leave for work confident she could handle the sa= le along with her sister. Chose not to put in the mighty overtime (which p= ays for my airplane) to get home and help the little lady! (remember guy's,= I'm SUPPORTIVE!!!!!) now when I get home I'm met with a plethora of people= looking for the ultimate deal, the wife said "the sales going very well an= d someone even bought that engine you had put out!!!" believe me folks, she= had my undivided attention at this point!!!! I (calmly) asked "who bought = it?" luckily we live in a very small town and since my wife is disabled she= goes to coffee/gossip hour every day! She knows everybody! Soooooooo now I= know who has my little engine and proceed to his house to see what I could= do to get it back. I pulled up in the drive and sure enough, the garage do= or was open and there sat a "sand rail" the pickup was there also with my/h= is power plant sitting in the back! Now I'm not the most social guy around but when a guy steps out of the hous= e and says "I was wondering how long it would take for you to show up, you = want a beer?" HE now had my undivided attention! With a smirk on his face he came out and leaned on the truck, bet your look= ing for that aren't you? He said, I asked him just how much he paid for the= engine, he said he got a hell of a deal! The kind you see on the traveling= antic show on TV!!! I said I'm sure you did but there has been a mistake, = the wife wasn't supposed to sale it! he said sounds like we have a problem!= I just responded with a simple "YEP" Well needles to say I offered to buy it back for what he paid($100.00) and = he agreed with one stipulation, that was that I help him build an engine fo= r his car since this was all new to him! I agreed with one more stipulation= and that was that we do it at his house and that he buys the beer! We proc= eeded to write it in stone!(hand shake) and loaded MY engine back in my tru= ck! The moral of this story is even when things are looking grim with your KR p= roject something good usually comes out of it, it could be just a cold bee= r or a cold beer and a new friend! = CURTIS R SCHMIDT CNC TOOLING & PROGRAMMING KANSAS USA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 17:06:37 -0400 To: From: "bob" Subject: Growing Pains Message-ID: <005f01c03ba2$cd689da0$02000003@i4t4j9> ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01C03B81.45B84CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If I extend the width of my fuselage by 6 inches and extend the main = spar accordingly so I don't loose any wing area, do i also need to add = length to the wings because of the increased whetted area? If I add one = 14 inch section to the length of the airframe, should I add additional = reinforcement and where? Thanks Bob ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01C03B81.45B84CA0-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 13:13:02 -0500 To: "Mark Langford" , From: "JEAN VERON" Subject: Re: KR> Re: KR> Growing Pains Message-ID: <000701c03c53$b9b25c40$67851a3f@computer> I am thinking about increasing the horizontal and vertical stabelizers about 30 percent larger also the rudder. I remember a thread some time back about someone who had done this but was waiting to test it before giving details. The original rudder is not big enough for the O-200 . Full power before about 60 mph will result in an immediate left tyrn even with full right rudder. Your thoughts? Jean ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Langford +ADw-langford+AEA-hiwaay.net+AD4- To: +ADw-krnet+AEA-mailinglists.org+AD4- Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 1:04 PM Subject: KR+AD4- Re: KR+AD4- Growing Pains +AD4- bob wrote: +AD4- +AD4- +AD4-If I extend the width of my fuselage by 6 inches and extend the main spar +AD4- +AD4-accordingly so I don't loose any wing area, do i also need to add length to +AD4- +AD4-the wings because of the increased whetted area? If I add one 14 inch +AD4- +AD4-section to the length of the airframe, should I add additional +AD4- reinforcement +AD4-and where? +AD4- +AD4- I'd say that adding 3+ACI- to each outboard spar would be a matter of +AD4- preference. The missing 3+ACI- isn't going to make a drastic difference in +AD4- climb or stall speed, but will improve the +ACI-ride+ACI- slightly in turbulence. +AD4- I'd do whatever's convenient. So if you already have your spar material, +AD4- stick with it and make the wing 3+ACI- shorter. If not, get longer spar +AD4- material. Just don't make those hoaky foam spars 3+ACI- longer. That might be +AD4- pushing it (but that's just a gut feeling). +AD4- +AD4- As for lengthening the fuselage, I haven't done any kind of analysis at all, +AD4- but I personally wouldn't hesistate to make it one bay longer without any +AD4- additional reinforcement. But I wouldn't call that a +ACI-professional opinion+ACI- +AD4- either. It can't help but make the plane more stable, with a fairly minimal +AD4- increase in weight. +AD4- +AD4- Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama +AD4- mailto:langford+AEA-hiwaay.net +AD4- see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/+AH4-langford +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- --------------------------------------------------------------------- +AD4- To post to the list, email: krnet+AEA-mailinglists.org +AD4- To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe+AEA-mailinglists.org +AD4- For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help+AEA-mailinglists.org +AD4- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 13:04:34 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR+AD4- Growing Pains Message-ID: <00b401c03c52$89426ab0$f2de8e18@300emachine> bob wrote: +AD4-If I extend the width of my fuselage by 6 inches and extend the main spar +AD4-accordingly so I don't loose any wing area, do i also need to add length to +AD4-the wings because of the increased whetted area? If I add one 14 inch +AD4-section to the length of the airframe, should I add additional reinforcement +AD4-and where? I'd say that adding 3+ACI- to each outboard spar would be a matter of preference. The missing 3+ACI- isn't going to make a drastic difference in climb or stall speed, but will improve the +ACI-ride+ACI- slightly in turbulence. I'd do whatever's convenient. So if you already have your spar material, stick with it and make the wing 3+ACI- shorter. If not, get longer spar material. Just don't make those hoaky foam spars 3+ACI- longer. That might be pushing it (but that's just a gut feeling). As for lengthening the fuselage, I haven't done any kind of analysis at all, but I personally wouldn't hesistate to make it one bay longer without any additional reinforcement. But I wouldn't call that a +ACI-professional opinion+ACI- either. It can't help but make the plane more stable, with a fairly minimal increase in weight. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford+AEA-hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/+AH4-langford ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 13:38:53 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR+AD4- Growing Pains Message-ID: <00bc01c03c57$54188bd0$f2de8e18@300emachine> JEAN wrote: +AD4- I am thinking about increasing the horizontal and vertical stabelizers about +AD4- 30 percent larger also the rudder. Well, the KR2S tail surfaces are all larger than KR2 surfaces already. Not lengthwise but chordwise at the root for the horizontal, and both chordwise and lengthwise for the vertical and rudder. Moving them back another 14+ACI- will have a noticeable effect on stability and control. I'm too lazy to do the tail volume coefficient calculations, but I'd say making each side of the horizontal or the vertical 2+ACI- longer with the longer fuselage would be about the same thing as making them all 4+ACI- longer with the shorter tail, but that's purely a guess. For what it's worth, Troy has a C-85 and says he had too much rudder on his KR2 (see http://home.hiwaay.net/+AH4-langford/troy/99011812.jpg ), so he actually shortened it down to the upper hinge leaving the length of the vertical stab the same (I think), and is happy with the results. Obviously, your mileage must vary, but I have no idea why. With 140 hp, I suspect I'll need lots of rudder too, which is why I extended mine a bit in the form of an aerodynamic balance. For +ACI-normal+ACI- folks, making the fuselage 14+ACI- longer would mean they could get away with using stock KR2S tail dimension, maybe adding 2+ACI- to each horizontal stab side, but again, that's a guess, and yet to be proven. I probably shouldn't be dispensing +ACI-opinions+ACI- about such things anyway, because that's all they are... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford+AEA-hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/+AH4-langford ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:24:54 -0400 To: "JEAN VERON" , "Mark Langford" , From: "RONALD.FREIBERGER" Subject: RE: KR> Re: KR> Growing Pains, Tail group size Message-ID: Bigger is better, and longer is better. I built a Cassutt Sport, and = was amazed at the stabitlity and emmpenage effectiveness. Those = airplanes (Formula 1) have LONG tails and relatively small control = surfaces. Ron Freiberger... mailto:ron.martha+AEA-mindspring.com =20 -----Original Message----- From: JEAN VERON +AFs-mailto:n4dd+AEA-email.msn.com+AF0- Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 2:13 PM To: Mark Langford+ADs- krnet+AEA-mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR+AD4- Re: KR+AD4- Growing Pains I am thinking about increasing the horizontal and vertical stabelizers = about 30 percent larger also the rudder. I remember a thread some time back = about someone who had done this but was waiting to test it before giving = details. The original rudder is not big enough for the O-200 . Full power before about 60 mph will result in an immediate left tyrn even with full right rudder. Your thoughts? Jean ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Langford +ADw-langford+AEA-hiwaay.net+AD4- To: +ADw-krnet+AEA-mailinglists.org+AD4- Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 1:04 PM Subject: KR+AD4- Re: KR+AD4- Growing Pains +AD4- bob wrote: +AD4- +AD4- +AD4-If I extend the width of my fuselage by 6 inches and extend = the main spar +AD4- +AD4-accordingly so I don't loose any wing area, do i also need to = add length to +AD4- +AD4-the wings because of the increased whetted area? If I add = one 14 inch +AD4- +AD4-section to the length of the airframe, should I add = additional +AD4- reinforcement +AD4-and where? +AD4- +AD4- I'd say that adding 3+ACI- to each outboard spar would be a matter = of +AD4- preference. The missing 3+ACI- isn't going to make a drastic = difference in +AD4- climb or stall speed, but will improve the +ACI-ride+ACI- slightly = in turbulence. +AD4- I'd do whatever's convenient. So if you already have your spar = material, +AD4- stick with it and make the wing 3+ACI- shorter. If not, get = longer spar +AD4- material. Just don't make those hoaky foam spars 3+ACI- longer. = That might be +AD4- pushing it (but that's just a gut feeling). +AD4- +AD4- As for lengthening the fuselage, I haven't done any kind of = analysis at all, +AD4- but I personally wouldn't hesistate to make it one bay longer = without any +AD4- additional reinforcement. But I wouldn't call that a = +ACI-professional opinion+ACI- +AD4- either. It can't help but make the plane more stable, with a = fairly minimal +AD4- increase in weight. +AD4- +AD4- Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama +AD4- mailto:langford+AEA-hiwaay.net +AD4- see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/+AH4-langford +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- = --------------------------------------------------------------------- +AD4- To post to the list, email: krnet+AEA-mailinglists.org +AD4- To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe+AEA-mailinglists.org +AD4- For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help+AEA-mailinglists.org +AD4- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet+AEA-mailinglists.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe+AEA-mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help+AEA-mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:30:25 -0400 To: From: "George Allen" Subject: Re: KR> wives Message-ID: <003d01c03c80$1d202420$8ea7dcd8@george> ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C03C5E.87328000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Curtis, you're cruel writing stories like that ! ! ! That scared the = hell out of me!=20 George Allen ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C03C5E.87328000-- ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************