From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 20 Nov 2000 14:16:00 -0000 Issue 127 Date: Monday, November 20, 2000 6:16 AM krnet Digest 20 Nov 2000 14:16:00 -0000 Issue 127 Topics (messages 3015 through 3044): Re: An introduction 3015 by: Frank Ross 3016 by: BillStarrs 3017 by: Kenneth L Wiltrout 3019 by: David Mullins Re: RULES OF THE AIR 3018 by: Dennis Witherspoon hellicopters 3020 by: Αβραμίδης Πέτρος New Builder 3021 by: Wayne Mc Mullen Prop Clearance/ Thank You 3022 by: Florin L Pintea VW REBUILD 3023 by: Livingstone, Danny (DJ) 3025 by: KR2616TJ.aol.com KR2 or Vision 3024 by: B&BGARAGE KR2 rebuild questions. 3026 by: Michael A. Parker Homebuilt aircraft Checklist 3027 by: Ross Youngblood Re: rudder pedal return spring 3028 by: Ross Youngblood 3037 by: WA7YXF.aol.com Re: control options 3029 by: Ross Youngblood Re: fiberglass vs. plywood 3030 by: Ross Youngblood 3040 by: Eduardo Iglesias Re: Wing/fiberglassing 3031 by: Ross Youngblood Aileron Crank Arm 3032 by: Albert Pecoraro 3033 by: RONALD.FREIBERGER 3035 by: Ross Youngblood Re: NEWSLETTERs 3034 by: Ross Youngblood Revmaster engine failure 3036 by: David R. Christensen spars 3038 by: Timothy Brown 3039 by: RONALD.FREIBERGER 3043 by: KR2616TJ.aol.com Blocking The Fuse Truss 3041 by: Peter Johnson Re: Rolling and Tipping (sanding) 3042 by: Michael Taglieri nasty comments? 3044 by: Oscar Zuniga Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 14:59:11 -0800 (PST) To: "krnet@mailinglists.org" From: Frank Ross Subject: Re: KR> An introduction Message-ID: <20001118225911.29480.qmail@web4704.mail.yahoo.com> > Greetings everyone, > I am brand new to this forum. So, I am anxiously awaiting all of > your thoughts about > this crazy guy (who would buy first then learn > later). :-) > Thanks > Andrew > New KR owner/novice - Future KR expert :-) Andrew, Start by taking a "Ground School" at your local community college. This will count for when you take flying lessons. Join EAA, find and join a local chapter, and read every website on KRs. Keep your sense of humor, especially when reading responses to your postings on the KRNet. Welcome and best wishes ===== Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 16:58:03 -0700 To: "Robert Stone" , "Andrew" , From: "BillStarrs" Subject: Re: KR> An introduction Message-ID: <001701c051bb$64707640$ec0b2aa2@starrs> After you learn to fly and have hundreds of hours logged and consider your self an "expert" don"t take yourself too seriously. Happy landings, Bill Starrs, Prescott AZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Stone" To: "Andrew" ; Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2000 3:55 PM Subject: Re: KR> An introduction > Andrew: I am in Texas so I cannot help you except with advice where you may > be in need of same however there are many builder/flyers on the net, like > 600 or so all over the world and I am sure some in your town. Expect a > flood of messages and all the help you need. No one of us know it all but > all of us do know it all. The best of luck with your project and welcome to > the net. > > Bob Stone > Harker Heights, > Texas > KR-1, & KR-2 > 1974 1978 > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrew" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2000 12:36 PM > Subject: KR> An introduction > > > > Greetings everyone, > > > > I am brand new to this forum. My name is Andrew Hyder. I recently > > purchased a fully completed (once flying) KR2. It had been involved in a > > small crash (hard landing really). where the landing gear (retractable) > > collapsed during the landing (retracted). There is front end damage, but > > the engine (VW) is fine and was just rebuilt. (8 hours). > > > > I have absolutely no airplane, or flying knowledge, other than the > > reading I have done for the last 2 months. (no license at all) I really > > wanted a KR2 because I heard so much about them being easy to fly, and a > > good first plane. I am however very technical, and very unintimidated by > > seemingly large projects. > > > > I bought this thing last week in Victorville CA from Carl Hedberg, a > > really nice guy. I then trailered it to my home (garage) in Minneapolis > > MN. When I took the tarp off for the first time this morning, I really > > saw for the first time the size of this project. (gulp) Most > > importantly, I realized that I really NEED some good advice and HELP in > > the repairs. > > > > If there are any of you out there that are in my area, (or would like to > > fly in) and help me with this project, I am willing to make the > > investment into this KR2, by taking care of all of your expenses, and > > labor. Please let me know. > > > > I have noticed (in all of the paper work) that Rand Robertson provides > > quite a bit of replacement parts. So I am considering buying all new > > damaged parts, but as I said I am temporarily a complete novice when it > > comes to this. So, I am anxiously awaiting all of your thoughts about > > this crazy guy (who would buy first then learn later). :-) > > > > > > -- > > Thanks > > Andrew > > New KR owner/novice - Future KR expert :-) > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 20:21:16 -0500 To: andrew@subjex.com From: Kenneth L Wiltrout Cc: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> An introduction Message-ID: <20001118.202152.-138137.2.klw1953@juno.com> Hi Andy: I just finished my KR2S, now I'm going through the registration and FAA processes which should take about a month or 3. Anyhow, the KR line of aircraft really aren't true kit planes, they are plans built planes with some pre molded parts that are available, but most of the work is from scratch. Point is------------- get familiar with the construction techniques and post any question you may have to the KR-NET, someone is sure to have the answer, they did for me. Best of luck.---------------------Kenny On Sat, 18 Nov 2000 12:36:10 -0600 Andrew writes: > Greetings everyone, > > I am brand new to this forum. My name is Andrew Hyder. I recently > purchased a fully completed (once flying) KR2. It had been involved > in a > small crash (hard landing really). where the landing gear > (retractable) > collapsed during the landing (retracted). There is front end damage, > but > the engine (VW) is fine and was just rebuilt. (8 hours). > > I have absolutely no airplane, or flying knowledge, other than the > reading I have done for the last 2 months. (no license at all) I > really > wanted a KR2 because I heard so much about them being easy to fly, > and a > good first plane. I am however very technical, and very > unintimidated by > seemingly large projects. > > I bought this thing last week in Victorville CA from Carl Hedberg, a > really nice guy. I then trailered it to my home (garage) in > Minneapolis > MN. When I took the tarp off for the first time this morning, I > really > saw for the first time the size of this project. (gulp) Most > importantly, I realized that I really NEED some good advice and HELP > in > the repairs. > > If there are any of you out there that are in my area, (or would > like to > fly in) and help me with this project, I am willing to make the > investment into this KR2, by taking care of all of your expenses, > and > labor. Please let me know. > > I have noticed (in all of the paper work) that Rand Robertson > provides > quite a bit of replacement parts. So I am considering buying all new > damaged parts, but as I said I am temporarily a complete novice when > it > comes to this. So, I am anxiously awaiting all of your thoughts > about > this crazy guy (who would buy first then learn later). :-) > > > -- > Thanks > Andrew > New KR owner/novice - Future KR expert :-) > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 23:20:51 -0500 To: Andrew From: David Mullins CC: "krnet@mailinglists.org" Subject: Re: KR> An introduction Message-ID: <3A175523.C4204073@ici.net> Andrew wrote: > > Greetings everyone, > So I am considering buying all new damaged parts, > > -- > Thanks > Andrew > New KR owner/novice - Future KR expert :-) Andrew, Don't you mean: "So I am considering buying all new 'UN'-damaged parts?" ;>) Welcome to the club! I just found some space to build in recently. I rented the next door neighbors garage for the winter while he is in Florida. I have till the first week in April to get the fuselage as complete as possible. The building blitz is on! I have collected $12,000 in parts over the last year so that I didn't have to wait for the money to get each stage done. What I have completed in the last 5 weeks since moving into the garage: Spars were done last summer on the front porch. Table built and leveled, Jig made with full scale plot of the fuselage sides Both sides built and fuselage frame glued together Tail post installed Horizontal Stabilizer done, HS bulkhead done, waiting for foam and glassing Main center spar finally closed out Wing attach fittings temporarily mounted and holes drilled in center spars Both firewall shear webs and the shear web behind the seat are done All AS5048 airfoil ribs cut out Working on canopy latch/locking mechanism for Dragonfly canopy interior floor plywood in place firewall cut to rough size working on seat bottom so that I can set the canopy height Side plywood will be scarfed this Sunday and installed on fuselage Bottom plywood skin will be started on Monday morning before work Ordered custom one piece AL landing gear t clear 60" 3 blade prop Corvair engine cores dismantled and cleaned, ready for the machine shop, Prop hubs and starter setup done, Aluminum pushrod tubes made, duel breaker plate made to run redundant electronic ignition. Started cutting 4130 for motor mount, need to practice gas welding scraps. I've welded with stick and Mig before building dirt track race cars but not gas. My web site will be up shortly with lots of pictures and descriptions. I would like to say thanks to all of the KRnet and to the builders that have a wealth of information available on their Web sites. Without this guidance from you for the past two years since I purchased my plans, I would not be able to build this quickly without problems that have already been solved by others. We can all learn from our mistakes by telling all "How that way didn't work so I did it this way." So again, I say Thanks to you, Dave Mullins Nashua, New Hampshire ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 20:10:13 -0800 To: "ROBERT COOPER" , "w.g. kirkland" , "krnet" From: "Dennis Witherspoon" Subject: Re: KR> Fw: RULES OF THE AIR Message-ID: <002901c051de$9ff07760$00f991c6@dennis> Jack, I crewed a chinook for 12 months in the 101st for 12 months in vietnam, I thought they were beautiful. We were shot up but never shot down. N99LZ Sorry net moms, Dennis Witherspoon in Shedd Oregon -----Original Message----- From: ROBERT COOPER To: w.g. kirkland ; krnet Date: Saturday, November 18, 2000 1:20 PM Subject: Re: KR> Fw: RULES OF THE AIR >Bill and netters. >I take exception with #17. >Helicopters are beautiful. Yesterday I was working in the garage and heard a >Huey approaching so I went outside and visually confirm it was a Huey. I >stood at attention and saluted until it went out of site. Helicopters can >fly but first they must beat the air into submission. Now a Chinook is ugly. >It is the only aircraft ever known to have had a midair collision with >itself. >Jack Cooper >mailto:kr2cooper@msn.com >http://www.geocities.com/kr2cooper/ >Fayetteville, NC. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: w.g. kirkland >To: krnet >Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2000 12:34 PM >Subject: KR> Fw: RULES OF THE AIR > > >> >> W.G.(Bill) KIRKLAND >> kirkland@vianet.on.ca >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "bryan chester" >> To: ; ; >> ; ; ; >> ; ; > >> Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 8:33 AM >> Subject: Fwd: RULES OF THE AIR >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >From: "Carol Chester" >> > >To: chester_jes@hotmail.com, chester_bryan@hotmail.com >> > >Subject: Fwd: RULES OF THE AIR >> > >Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:50:44 EST >> > >MIME-Version: 1.0 >> > >X-Originating-IP: [216.208.52.71] >> > >Received: from 216.208.52.71 by lw4fd.law4.hotmail.msn.com with >HTTP;Thu, >> > >16 Nov 2000 02:50:44 GMT >> > > >> > >Thought you two might enjoy! >> > > >> > >RULES OF THE AIR: >> > > >> > >1. Every take off is optional. Every landing is mandatory. >> > > >> > >2. If you push the stick forward, the houses get bigger. >> > > If you pull the stick back, they get smaller. That is, >> > > unless you keep pulling the stick all the way back, >> > > then they get bigger again. >> > > >> > >3. Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous. >> > > >> > >4. It's always better to be down here wishing you were up >> > > there than up there wishing you were down here. >> > > >> > >5. The ONLY time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire. >> > > >> > >6. The propeller is just a big fan in front of the plane >> > > used to keep the pilot cool. When it stops, you can >> > > actually watch the pilot start sweating. >> > > >> > >7. When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No one has ever >> > > collided with the sky. >> > > >> > >8. A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A >> > > 'great' landing is one after which they can use the plane again. >> > > >> > >9. Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long >> > > enough to make all of them yourself. >> > > >> > >10. You know you've landed with the wheels up if it takes >> > > full power to taxi to the ramp. >> > > >> > >11. The probability of survival is inversely proportional >> > > to the angle of arrival. Large angle of arrival, small >> > > probability of survival and vice versa. >> > > >> > >12. Never let an aircraft take you somewhere your brain >> > > didn't get to five minutes earlier. >> > > >> > >13. Stay out of clouds. The silver lining everyone keeps >> > > talking about might be another airplane going in the >> > > opposite direction. Reliable sources also report that >> > > mountains have been known to hide out in clouds. >> > > >> > >14. Always try to keep the number of landings you make equal >> > > to the number of take offs you've made. >> > > >> > >15. There are three simple rules for making a smooth landing. >> > > Unfortunately no one knows what they are. >> > > >> > >16. You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of >> > > experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience >> > > before you empty the bag of luck. >> > > >> > >17. Helicopters can't fly; they're just so ugly the earth repels them. >> > > >> > >18. If all you can see out of the window is ground that's >> > > going round and round and all you can hear is commotion >> > > coming from the passenger compartment, things are not at >> > > all as they should be. >> > > >> > >19. In the ongoing battle between objects made of aluminum >> > > going hundreds of miles per hour and the ground going >> > > zero miles per hour, the ground has yet to lose. >> > > >> > >20. Good judgment comes from experience. Unfortunately, the >> > > experience usually comes from bad judgment. >> > > >> > >21. It's always a good idea to keep the pointy end going >> > > forward as much as possible. >> > > >> > >22. Keep looking around. There's always something you've missed. >> > > >> > >23. Remember, gravity is not just a good idea. It's the law. >> > > And it's not subject to appeal. >> > > >> > >24. The three most useless things to a pilot are the altitude >> > > above you, runway behind you, and a tenth of a second ago. >> > > >> > >Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick >themselves >> > >up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened. >> > >- Winston Churchill >> > > >> > >Randy Farrell, ITS - Technical Services - extension 4586 >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >_________________________________________________________________________ >> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at >http://www.hotmail.com. >> > >> > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >> > http://profiles.msn.com. >> > >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org >> > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org >To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 21:21:38 +0200 To: From: =?iso-8859-7?B?weLx4ezf5OfyINDd9PHv8g==?= Subject: hellicopters Message-ID: <001f01c05194$c68098a0$e16ba7c3@h5v0r5> ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C051A5.89479F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi fellows Does any body know if there is a site similar to krnet that builders = talk about their hellikopters? A friend of mine is interested about exec or anything else.I have just finished the undercarriage = repair of my kr2.The right rudder pedal has been broken. I can not find in greece steel tube as original is, and I am oriented to = use rustless tube, but I don' t know its endurance. Any ideas? thank you in advance. Avramidis Peter kozani Greece ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C051A5.89479F40-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 06:05:26 -0800 To: From: "Wayne Mc Mullen" Subject: New Builder Message-ID: <001c01c05231$c49d6b60$82020118@pinol1.sfba.home.com> ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C051EE.B647D0C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Group, I am considering building a KR-1. What is a realistic time to build = this plane? Also, what are some of the tools needed for the project? Wayne ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C051EE.B647D0C0-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 10:28:36 -0700 To: "Corvaircraft" , "KR-Net" From: "Florin L Pintea" Subject: Prop Clearance/ Thank You Message-ID: Thank you all for the advice on the prop/ground clearance. I now have a very good place to start from. Thanks again and happy building! FLORIN L. PINTEA KR-2S SKUNKWORKS @ CALGARY, ALBERTA, CANADA mailto: florinpi@home.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 09:57:52 +0200 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Livingstone, Danny (DJ)" Subject: VW REBUILD Message-ID: Hello netters Its Sunday I am looking at my VW (was once before an aircraft engine) and I have the task of rebuilding ahead of me. I would like to know from those of you who have been through the process, what to look out for and what pitfalls there are when rebuilding the motor. Also any tips or advice very welcome. P.S. - The prop sits on the pulley side. Thanks Danny SA ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. All opinions expressed are the sender's own and not necessarily that of the employer. ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 15:14:19 EST To: LIVD0124@natref.com, krnet@mailinglists.org From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> VW REBUILD Message-ID: <7e.d287deb.27498e9b@aol.com> Its Sunday I am looking at my VW (was once before an aircraft engine) and I have the task of rebuilding ahead of me. I would like to know from those of you who have been through the process, what to look out for and what pitfalls there are when rebuilding the motor. Go to my webpage under "Engine". I tried to document my VW buildup. Another recommendation would be to call Steve at Great Plains. He is very willing to discuss various issues with you concerning VW rebuilds. Dana Overall 2000 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 02:00:22 -0600 To: From: "B&BGARAGE" Subject: KR2 or Vision Message-ID: <000f01c051fe$f6ac3d80$58817fd1@v9h0y3> ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C051CC.79972260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If Someone Knows Of A KR2.or Vision With High Time or Runout Engine At Good Price Please Contact Us. A kit Not Finished Would Also Be Of Interest ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C051CC.79972260-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 13:13:02 -0800 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Michael A. Parker" Subject: KR2 rebuild questions. Message-ID: <3A18425E.A6E47B84@earthlink.net> Hi Netters, I have a KR2 which I have had in storage for the last 8 years. To make a long story short the gear folded up when I landed and the prop splintered into little pieces. Gear doors sacrificed themselves to save the wing (only a few minor scratches). Yes, it was my first flight, but luckily I didn't build it (that would have hurt much more). Since I had no place to work on it I eventually sent it back east and it is sitting in a hanger waiting for it's re-birth. Engine has been filled with oil and sealed. Any suggestions on improvements that I can make, or changes in the last 10 years that I might incorporate? Better gear lock mechanisms (I didn't think I landed that hard, 3rd bounce)? Tri-gear modifications (fixed)? I plan on taking about 5-10 hours of taildragger time before I get into it this time, but would I be better off with tri-gear? Canopy latches? Brake systems (I broke the first prop when I started the engine and the plane started moving. When I let go of the stick to pull the brake cable (other hand on the throttle) the tail came up and I generated a lot of sawdust. A bungee cord on the stick fixed that, but is there a better way? Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 15:07:55 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Homebuilt aircraft Checklist Message-ID: <3A184F3B.1145A4DE@teleport.com> This is a very useful homebuilt reg/DAR checklist site http://www.provide.net/~pratt/ambuilt/faqhmblt.htm -- Ross ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 15:26:46 -0700 To: Krwr1@aol.com From: Ross Youngblood CC: virgnvs@juno.com, flesner@midwest.net, KR2616TJ@aol.com, krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> rudder pedal return spring Message-ID: <3A1853A6.9227C4FA@teleport.com> I second this opinion.... I decided not to use a spring but just a pully and a short loop of control cable to keep the pedals from flopping forward too far. I think if you get a spring that puts enough pressure to cause unbalanced control force on failure you have got too much spring. I'm thinking that it would take a lot of spring pressure to overcome the amount of pressure my foot can push onto a rudder pedal. I don't think that a failure of one of the springs would be cause for any major concern. -- Ross Krwr1@aol.com wrote: > > > What are your feet doing on a spring failure? the only thing the springs > does is keep the slack out of the cable when your feet is off the rudder > peddles. I think there's a lot of worrying about nothing. > Bill > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:41:59 EST To: rossy@teleport.com, Krwr1@aol.com From: WA7YXF@aol.com CC: virgnvs@juno.com, flesner@midwest.net, KR2616TJ@aol.com, krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> rudder pedal return spring Message-ID: <4f.3b65f6c.2749bf47@aol.com> I don't think it matters which way you go on the peddle return...Robinson used to say him and Ken would let them flop back and stretch there legs out when flying cross country...A friend of mine had a rudder cable failure shortly after take off. The rudder spring pulled the rudder over and he couldn't control the resulting spin and spun in. He got out of it with a broken ankle and a few cuts. His wag-aero cubby totally burned up except for one wing tip. Just one thing you might consider if using a spring. Last month I was in Wasilla, Alaska and visited the transportation and industry museum of Alaska... There hanging from the ceiling was Fred Kellers KR-1 looking like it was in perfect condition ready to go.. Fred built one of the earliest KRs, hauled it to Oshkosh. Then flew it down the next year. * see sport aviation magazine.... It was quite a thrill to see it after the inspiration it gave me so many years ago...... Lynn Hyder WA7YXF N37LH Redmond, Oregon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 15:28:08 -0700 To: Drew Swenson From: Ross Youngblood CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> control options Message-ID: <3A1853F8.81CED049@teleport.com> Drew, Well, a control wheel adds a lot of complexity, and probably weight as well, I think the two choices would be stick or joystick, not stick or wheel. But if you do a control wheel make it look cool, so it will be worth the extra effort when you get it done. -- Ross Drew Swenson wrote: > I am nearing the stage of choosing what controls to use; I just cannot seem to decide between stick or wheel. They both have disadvantages and advantages, but I would like to here from KR flyers to see what their view torard this decision. > > Thank you, > Drewlive@prodigy.net > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 15:36:43 -0700 To: Drew Swenson From: Ross Youngblood CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> fiberglass vs. plywood Message-ID: <3A1855FB.24A26255@teleport.com> It has been done before, and I think you could argue it is safe, however, I believe you will find it is going to be a significant amount of work.I think a lot of folks don't like the plywood as it gives the plane a 'less than aircraft' look, and want a aluminim or glass looking fuselage. There have been a couple of KR's built with glass instead of plywood, but I don't know if any have flown successfully. One broke up in flight, but the conventional wisdom was that it was shabbily built. The other I read about, was in the newsletter and I have not heard if it ever flew. I think it would be fun, to work with a glass sided KR, but wonder what the vibration absorbtion and peel strength properties would be like, (ie would it be more prone or less prone to flutter, and would it have a tendancy to delaminate from the wooden structure over time. (Wood and glass expand/contract at different rates). Also, if you decide to thow in the towel on your project at some later date, would it be more difficult to market a KR with a non standard fuselage boat? However, in the end, I would say, building a KR is an individual thing, but lean towards suggesting to stay with the plans, as it will get you done faster. -- Regards Ross Drew Swenson wrote: > Is it safe to use fiberglass in place of the plywood. I have been reading and found fiberglass is stronger and lighter than plywood. If I used fiberglass in place of plywood (just for exterior panneling) will it decrease the overall strength of the complete plane. > > Thank you, > Drewlive@prodigy.net > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 00:30:09 -0300 To: "Ross Youngblood" From: "Eduardo Iglesias" Cc: "KR-net" Subject: RE: KR> fiberglass vs. plywood Message-ID: <020d01c052a4$677e0480$411c33c8@EduardoIglesias> Ross What about the fuselage a la Dean? I think it΄s good an if I don΄΄t have finish mine I like this way. (not flown yet) Eduardo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 15:42:14 -0700 To: Carter Pond From: Ross Youngblood CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Wing/fiberglassing Message-ID: <3A185746.123516A3@teleport.com> Carter, I used Aeropoxy, and Dow-Der epoxy. The smell is not too bad, but I used a resperator when I worked with it just in case we find out 5 years from now it could cause cancer or somthing. If you have side windows that you can ventelate with you might need them in case your family starts smelling somthing objectioable. The hardener for epoxy may have a slight urea (urine) smell when you open the container. The mixed odor is not too bad. Polyester resins on the other hand have a bit stronger smell then epoxy resins. -- Ross Carter Pond wrote: > Is it possible/safe to fiberglass in doors i.e. my basement? Or will the > smell/vumes be to much? > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 17:48:44 -0500 To: "kr2s group" From: "Albert Pecoraro" Subject: Aileron Crank Arm Message-ID: <001e01c0527a$e020af20$64d4b23f@steelcase.com> ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C05250.F60296C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable KR Nutheads, In reference to page 64 (Drawing #59): What type of nut is supposed to be used to attach the MW-4 Rod-End = Bearings (on the aileron pushrod) to the Aileron Crank Arm? This is a = part that rotates, so would think that a castillated nut with a cotter = pin should be used here, just like Dr. Dean's hinges.=20 If this is true, wouldn't this also apply to the AN3-30A bolt that goes = from the upper support bracket through the crank arm to the lower = support bracket? (p.64.dwg.#59) This bolt connects a part that also = rotates - the aileron bell crank. I am taking an inventory of hardware for my next order and it just = occurred to me that perhaps a different type of nut is needed here. The = drawing indicates an AN365-1032. Now, without starting a big debate, can someone please tell me if the = AN365-1032 nut is alright to use here or would a castillated nut with = cotter pin be more appropriate due to the fact that the parts here = rotate? (I have this feeling that someone is going to tell me that = hundreds have been built this way and that they're all flying just fine = ... I guess I'm just curious! ;-) Thanks. Albert Pecoraro ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C05250.F60296C0-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:05:17 -0500 To: "Albert Pecoraro" , "kr2s group" From: "RONALD.FREIBERGER" Subject: RE: KR> Aileron Crank Arm Message-ID: Albert, the rotation rule is simple. If the bolt is used as an "axle", it needs a castellated nut. One good way to make an assembly like the bellcranks or a hinge point on a "stick, is to use a piece of tubing so that is the axle, and make it just enough longer that the bolt can be tightened down to normal torque specication. This makes a good hinge better, and doesn't leave a cotter pin in your "work" area. Ron Freiberger...EAA Tech Counselor #4125 mailto:ron.martha@mindspring.com -----Original Message----- From: Albert Pecoraro [mailto:gryphonflier@earthlink.net] Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 5:49 PM To: kr2s group Subject: KR> Aileron Crank Arm KR Nutheads, In reference to page 64 (Drawing #59): What type of nut is supposed to be used to attach the MW-4 Rod-End Bearings (on the aileron pushrod) to the Aileron Crank Arm? This is a part that rotates, so would think that a castillated nut with a cotter pin should be used here, just like Dr. Dean's hinges. If this is true, wouldn't this also apply to the AN3-30A bolt that goes from the upper support bracket through the crank arm to the lower support bracket? (p.64.dwg.#59) This bolt connects a part that also rotates - the aileron bell crank. I am taking an inventory of hardware for my next order and it just occurred to me that perhaps a different type of nut is needed here. The drawing indicates an AN365-1032. Now, without starting a big debate, can someone please tell me if the AN365-1032 nut is alright to use here or would a castillated nut with cotter pin be more appropriate due to the fact that the parts here rotate? (I have this feeling that someone is going to tell me that hundreds have been built this way and that they're all flying just fine ... I guess I'm just curious! ;-) Thanks. Albert Pecoraro ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 16:34:57 -0700 To: Albert Pecoraro From: Ross Youngblood CC: kr2s group Subject: Re: KR> Aileron Crank Arm Message-ID: <3A1863A1.23A68772@teleport.com> Albert, You are correct. I would use a drilled bolt and castillated nut on the rod end bolts for the ailerons, and I have already installed drilled bolts and castillated nuts on the bellcranks. I have been flying IFR training Sundays thru Thursdays, and every morning I wiggle the little flap push rod and look at the cotter pin on the flaps of the Piper Warrior and Archers that I fly. So I can tell you that's how it's done on the spam cans. -- Ross Albert Pecoraro wrote: > KR Nutheads, > > In reference to page 64 (Drawing #59): > > What type of nut is supposed to be used to attach the MW-4 Rod-End Bearings (on the aileron pushrod) to the Aileron Crank Arm? This is a part that rotates, so would think that a castillated nut with a cotter pin should be used here, just like Dr. Dean's hinges. > > If this is true, wouldn't this also apply to the AN3-30A bolt that goes from the upper support bracket through the crank arm to the lower support bracket? (p.64.dwg.#59) This bolt connects a part that also rotates - the aileron bell crank. > > I am taking an inventory of hardware for my next order and it just occurred to me that perhaps a different type of nut is needed here. The drawing indicates an AN365-1032. > > Now, without starting a big debate, can someone please tell me if the AN365-1032 nut is alright to use here or would a castillated nut with cotter pin be more appropriate due to the fact that the parts here rotate? (I have this feeling that someone is going to tell me that hundreds have been built this way and that they're all flying just fine ... I guess I'm just curious! ;-) > > Thanks. > > Albert Pecoraro ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 16:25:01 -0700 To: CHOCTAWCWR@aol.com From: Ross Youngblood CC: Horn2004@aol.com, krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> NEWSLETTERs Message-ID: <3A18614D.899117B8@teleport.com> I too think I should stand up and say that KR-net and KRnetters should not endorse the duplication of copyrighted material. The costs and effort involved in printing and distributing a newsletter via mail, are much higher than the automated email service that keeps KR-net alive. I expect that one months mailing costs for the KR-net Newsletter exceed that of the KR-net ISP service for a full year. Not to mention the time and effort that Earl Teporton and Monte Miller put forth monthly to gather articles and publish them. The fact that we are discussing them on the 'net, indicates that they have value. At one time, the KR newsletter was not being published regularly and some of us on KR-net dabbled in publishing a free online publication called 'KR-online'. It was a tremendous effort, however, without any funding, it was not reasonable for the volunteers put the various issues together to keep going month after month. The fact that Monte has purchased the Newsletter, and continues to publish the newsletter for the small group of KR enthusiasts says a lot about Monte, nobody in aircraft related businesses is going to make a lot of money, least of all those businesses which cater to us price sensitive KR builders. I also believe that in Monte's case, he has to notify those who threaten to copy his work, otherwise if he ever did go to court he would have difficulty protecting his rights as he would have let the copying occur with his knowledge. Monte takes time out every year to be at the KR gatherings even though he is probably not going to get enough income from the trip to cover the expense. (This is my guess). I'm thinking this says a lot, we are a pretty thankless lot out there on the internet. Well thats my opinion for the moment... as with the wind, it is subject to change, and doesn't always agree with the windsock. -- Regards Ross CHOCTAWCWR@aol.com wrote: > i must comment on this and please let's not start a mud slinging bout here. > just because someone else is doing something illegal does that make it right > for the kr net to do the same. there are two sides to this newsletter thing, > both have merrit, doing something underhanded only will serve to make matters > worse, the newsletter is availabe in print to anyone that wants to > subscribe, let us not chastise Monte for he has done a very valuable service > for the builders of the kr, should we just kick him because he sells > subscriptions to a very good newsletter. charles > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 16:39:30 -0800 To: From: "David R. Christensen" Subject: Revmaster engine failure Message-ID: <001601c0528a$588eec60$94785ad1@davec> ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C05247.49CCFB60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is to inform anyone using a Revmaster engine equipped with a Bendix = dual magneto of a total magneto failure I experienced with my KR-2. = Upon overhaul of the magneto it was determined that a needle bearing = located near the cam on the main drive shaft had overheated causing the = cam to get hot enough to melt the nylon followers allowing both sets of = points to close up within about five minutes of each other. My engine = was purchased in 1986 and not run until 1992. It had about 600 hours on = it at the time of the magneto failure. I have been told there is a = Bendix service bulletin out recommending overhaul of the magneto every = four years. A more reasonable recommendation by a mag shop was to have = the 500 hour inspection done at 500 hours or five years, whichever comes = first. There are also several AD's out on the older models. Dave Christensen, davec@favorites.com ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C05247.49CCFB60-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 15:46:09 -0800 (PST) To: Group KR NET From: Timothy Brown Subject: spars Message-ID: <20001119234609.90126.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com> To those that care, it finally got above 50 degrees for the past 2 days so I kicked on the heater in my garage( which adds about 5 degrees overall...very small heater) and epoxied the main spar together this weekend with one side skinned. No one in my local EAA is able to inspect. Anyone see any problems if I fully photograph and document what I do in journal format? Am purchasing a new furnace tomorrow to hang in my garage. It is designed to heat a whole house and be installed in an attic so I hope it will heat my garage this winter. The last 2 weeks we have been getting highs of upper 30s and lows in the teens. Yes there are places in So. Calif. that get these temps. I am in the mountains above San Bernardino which puts me about 2 hrs (without traffic, ha ha) east of LA. Thanks for all the past info and a personal message to Mark Langford.....I used much on your site to build my spars. Thanks. Tim __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 19:32:18 -0500 To: "Timothy Brown" , "Group KR NET" From: "RONALD.FREIBERGER" Subject: RE: KR> spars Message-ID: Tim Said; No one in my local EAA is able to inspect. Anyone see any problems if I fully photograph and document what I do in journal format? Your EAA Tech Counselor ( if you had one) would counsel you, but only the FAA/DAR can inspect. As far as I've been able to ascertain, they usually couldn't care less what your tech counselor has to say. Further, you can write in your logbook that "Ol' Herbie, the TC was here and said...." but the TC CANNOT make an entry in your logbbok ( per EAA Hq ). Documentation is good, and a picture's worth 10,000 opinions. However, your TC can help get a good job, and three visits can qualify you for insurance with AVEMCO from the start of your flying. (Not a small issue. The FAA/DAR will want the documentation (maybe) to verify that you did inded, build the aircraft. As far as quality, it'll be as inspected, not as represented. Most inspectors will know at first glance whether it's a good job. BTW, you must be an EAA National member to avail yourself of the TC services. Ron Freiberger...EAA TC #4125 mailto:ron.martha@mindspring.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 07:48:08 EST To: timwbrown@yahoo.com, krnet@mailinglists.org From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> spars Message-ID: <4e.da0dd65.274a7788@aol.com> In a message dated 11/19/2000 6:46:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, timwbrown@yahoo.com writes: << No one in my local EAA is able to inspect. Anyone see any problems if I fully photograph and document what I do in journal format? >> There is no longer a requirement that you obtain a signoff before you close your spars. Document it with pictures, and go on. Dana Overall 2000 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7085/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 22:40:21 -0800 To: From: "Peter Johnson" Subject: Blocking The Fuse Truss Message-ID: <001001c052bc$fb18a700$b209eccf@peter> ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C05279.B3784CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's something that I hope might be able to help someone. After gluing up the fuse truss' comes the blocking. This takes time! = Here's what I did. To clean up the glue in the joints from gluing the verticals and = diagonals in place, use a course tooth hacksaw blade with very little = set to the teeth. You will find that it is easy to keep the blade flat = to the 5/8" pcs. and that the blade will cut the squeezed out epoxy very = close. To mark the blocks out, I hung one longeron over the edge of the = workbench, held the blocking material under the joint, and scribed the = block with a sharp pencil from above, very quick and easy. After = cutting, some touch up with a sanding block and most blocks 'rung' into = place. I tried two methods to glue the blocks in place. By far the easiest way = was to nail the entire truss down to make it unmovable. I mixed up some = raw glue and pre-glued the blocks and joints. (I use 'acid brushes' to = apply epoxy, very handy and cheap). Then I mixed up a flox mixture, = glued the blocks, and pressed them into place. After all the blocks = were in place I took nails, pressed them against the block to get some = squeeze-out, and then hammered the nail down to hold it in place. To = clean up I used a popsickle stick cut at an angle to scrape off the bulk = of the squeeze-out, and paper towell to wipe things cleaner. For those who are just getting into it, here's the kicker! It took a = total of about 12 hours to prep the joints from gluing the verts and = diagonals, cut the blocks, an glue them down! I know I owe everyone a continuing explaination of rolling and tipping, = I'm sorry if I'm causing a holdup with anyone. I will continue as time = allows. mailto:pjohnson@voyageur.ca ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C05279.B3784CE0-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 02:35:43 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Michael Taglieri Subject: KR: Rolling and Tipping (sanding) Message-ID: <20001120.023840.13934.4.MikeT_NYC@juno.com> Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 22:30:35 -0800 To: From: "Peter Johnson" Subject: Rolling and Tipping Message-ID: <00f801c04d3b$62aeb580$6ea5e2d1@peter> ------=_NextPart_000_00F5_01C04CF8.2D319B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now here's something I can help the list with. I have been using this = technique in the marine industry for going on 30 years. I just finished = a 36 IOR cold- molded, varnished, 'show boat' and used the rolling and = tipping technique for the same reason as in the past, rolling and = tipping will produce a better finish than spraying. Now that comment is = going to raise some comments I'm sure! Truth is, I don't think anyone = can say that they have ever seen a sprayed finished right off the gun = that does not have some orange peel. Rolling and tipping, with some = practise, will produce a finish that is as smooth as glass without = buffing. To anyone who is considering how they are going to finish and = paint their plane, consider this technique. It is simple, easy to = learn, and requires only a bit of practise and lots of looking! One comment that has followed along with regards to rolling and tipping = is the underlying need for good base prep. This cannot be stressed = enough. The first part of this description is based on my experiences = preparing surfaces. The secret to getting a good finish on a surface is not so much to have = a 'smooth' surface, but to have a 'flat' surface. To obtain a 'flat' = surface I would not recommend using an electric sander for the following = reasons: An electric sander will only cover an area about 4 1/4 x 7, it = is hard to move fast without it 'tripping' on itself, and it is too easy = to hold it in one place and sand away shadows. =20 The secret to producing a 'flat' finish on a large surface such as a = wing or fuse is to use a large sander!, it is called a sanding board. = Sanding boards are made to fit one full, or two full sheets of = sandpaper. I use cheap, 3-ply spruce plywood cut to size. On the back = side I attach two 1 1/2" dowells on blocks to use as handles, they = should be larger than smaller. On the front surface I completly smear = cheap paper paste such as 'YooHoo Glue Sticks' from the stationary = store, to attach a layer of dense, firm, but flexible foam such as cheap = mouse pads or that blue foam you can buy for sleeping on when you're = camping. On top of that, and still smearing lots of glue stick, I lay = on a layer of heavy vapour barrier plastic. The sandpaper is attached = to the plastic using the glue stick applied just inside the edges of the = sandpaper sheet. To explain the above, the cheap 3 ply plywood is used = because it has 'some' flexibilty, the foam is used to allow some = conformance to curved surfaces, (if your surface is very rough to begin = with, build another sanding board without the foam and use it sparingly, = just enough to knock down the high spots), and the plastic allows easy = removal of the sandpaper, the smooth, round handles allow you to easily = roll your hands on the handles, and the glue sticks are used because you = can use water to soak off old sandpaper and glue residue buildups. Now to use your new sanding boards, take a soft lead pencil and softly = scribble all over your work surface. Position the work so that you can = comfortably use the board, (you'll figure this out quickly), and start = sanding, I wouldn't use anything much rougher than 120G to begin. Use = your entire body to move the sanding board over a large, long, area of = the work, and sand in long, sweeping strokes. Don't hesitate to move = your work surface to accomodate your 'swing' and allow you to be = comfortable. When sanding the fuse, sand fore and aft, when sanding the = wings, sand inboard/outboard. The removal of the pencil marks will = indicate when you've sanded an area enough. Be prepared to discover = that it takes very little time to sand an area like a KR wing, and you = will probably find that you are moving in an almost constant = 'swing-step, swing-step' procedure. =20 So does this sound like a lot of work? Yes it does. Is it a lot of = work? No it isn't. As an example, I spent twelve hours ROUGH sanding = the last coat of epoxy on the above boat using 40G paper, it took 6 = hours using a double sheet sanding board and 120G paper to cover the = same area! (PS, use 'C', or 'D' weight sandpaper, (the heavy stuff), = and use aluminim oxide, it lasts) A couple of details....Any area that must be sanded my hand (small, = detail sanding), should be done first. Don't hesitate to hang a = flexible vacuum cleaner hose off the sanding board, wear hearing = protection, don't plan on this taking a long time!, it doesn't!, drink = plenty of water (this is applicable to anything in life), wear a dust = mask!!!!, and DON'T try using a sanding board to wet sand. It is = hilarious to discover why; every once in a while the wet sandpaper will = 'vacuum seal' itself to the surface and you'll be 15 feet sideways and = still flying before you realise what happened! On small surfaces such = as a KR wing it will take very little energy completly sand the surface. = Start sanding with 120G and go as fine as you like always vacuuming and = using soft pencil scribblings between sandings. Tomorrow I'll explain my experiences using primers etc. mailto:pjohnson@voyageur.ca ------=_NextPart_000_00F5_01C04CF8.2D319B40-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:58:45 -0600 To: Peter Johnson From: Ned Thomas CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Rolling and Tipping Message-ID: <3A0F8314.4E7EB0B5@mmcable.com> Peter, It is great to hear someone talk about rolling and tipping who actually u= ses this method. Thanks for sharing with us! Please keep it coming. Esp= ecially include the nitty gritty details. Like, what thickness is the 3 = ply plywood that you use to make the sanding boards? Where do you find t= he sandpaper big enough to fit the boards? What is the best fillers that= don't shrink? Thanks a bunch, Ned Peter Johnson wrote: ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 14:15:27 GMT To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: nasty comments? Message-ID: Jim Gogniat (Gognij@aol.com) wrote: >I have a two page article in one of the news letters. It is the one >that has David Carrols KR2 on the front cover. Every body may feel >free to copy any of this information if you wish. Virgil (virgnvs@juno.com) replied: >Was that DUMBO from Michigan ?? Virg Bobby (bmuse@ev1.net) emailed back: >Virgil, This type of comment is not needed or wanted >If you believe someone makes a supid statement, leave it alone. >Everyone will know it is stupid. Now, this exchange was the result of a misunderstanding. You see, the article that Jim wrote was in an issue of the newsletter featuring "Dumbo", the name of an airplane owned by a guy from Michigan, but Bobby thought it was a derogatory comment about Yoopers or something. Virgil didn't intend any insult; he was asking about Jim's article. At least, I believe that's what happened here. Y'all chill out- start thinking about turkey, and pies, and giving thanks for all the good stuff we can enjoy here in this free country. Or think about the "non-election", your choice ;o) Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.geocities.com/taildrags/ _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************