From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 27 Dec 2000 21:18:46 -0000 Issue 144 Date: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 1:19 PM krnet Digest 27 Dec 2000 21:18:46 -0000 Issue 144 Topics (messages 3397 through 3413): Wing fuel tanks?? PVC?? 3397 by: William Tabbert 3399 by: Mark Langford Turtle deck? 3398 by: Jack Coranz 3400 by: Donald Reid what if 3401 by: x x Boat Section 3402 by: KMcKen.aol.com 3403 by: Brian Vasseur Turbo setup for sale. 3404 by: Christine Coolidge Re: what if (Fiberglass panels) 3405 by: Tracy & Carol O'Brien 3408 by: Ross Youngblood delete 3406 by: vincent chrisovergis 3407 by: Livingstone, Danny (DJ) Re: what if (Fiberglass panels & foam) 3409 by: Robert 3410 by: jodybalkema.uswest.net 3411 by: Marty Hammersmith 3412 by: Frank Ross Plywood/Foam 3413 by: Carlton Blandford Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 12:03:34 -0000 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "William Tabbert" Subject: Wing fuel tanks?? PVC?? Message-ID: Hi I hope everybody had a nice holiday!! Has anybody ever heard of using a few pieces of 4" PVC for a wing fuel tank..?? Some where along the line I have heard of it...any comments? Thanks, Bill Tabbert _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 07:52:10 -0600 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Wing fuel tanks?? PVC?? Message-ID: <001901c06f43$0c1cf450$610fa58c@tbe.com> Bill wrote: > Hi I hope everybody had a nice holiday!! Has anybody ever heard of using a > few pieces of 4" PVC for a wing fuel tank..?? Although I don't really think of PVC pipe as being fuel resistant, I CAN tell you that a 6 foot long piece of 4" pipe would only hold 3.5 gallons of fuel, so it would hardly seem to be worth the effort. Aluminum tubing would work though, and you could use 5" behind the spar (right on the CG) to get 6 gallons per side. I know of several folks who've used it and are happy with it. I wouldn't be that tough to use thin wall 6" tubing and squash it out flatter toward the tip, and hold even more. The fuel sloshing back and forth from one end of the wing to other would feel disconcerting, to say the least, but you could pack it with safety foam to slow it down. It takes up an amazingly small amount of available volume. After looking at the fuel cells in the recent Summit Racing catalog( http://www.summitracing.com/ ), I'd say spending $100-$200 for a 15 gallon fuel cell to put behind the seat would be a very attractive option. As the fuel burns off the cg moves forward, so the plane is very stable when it comes time to land. And if you also had a forward deck header tank, you could keep your cg in the same place all the time with a little effort. But now you have fuel in the cockpit, but it's probably already there, just in front of your rather than behind you. Summit has several plastic and aluminum fuel cells for reasonable prices, as well safety foam and seat belts. Order one of their catalogs from their web site. It's full of good stuff... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 13:37:05 -0000 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Jack Coranz" Subject: Turtle deck? Message-ID: I have layed up the outside and the inside of my turtle deck with one layer of cloth. Do you guys recomend a second layer on the outside before smoothing??? Still building, Jack _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 11:13:40 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR> Turtle deck? Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001226110613.009fb0a0@pop.erols.com> --=====================_2521359==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:37 PM 12/26/2000 +0000, Jack Coranz wrote: >I have layed up the outside and the inside of my turtle deck with one >layer of cloth. Do you guys recomend a second layer on the outside before >smoothing??? The single layer of glass is strong enough for the air loading that the turtleback will see in flight, but it is not very tough to protect against accidents on the ground. It is pretty easy to drop something on one ply of glass and punch a hole in it or sand though it during the finishing process. If you add a second ply while you are doing the layup, there is a very minimal weight gain since you don't need to add very much extra resin. Adding a second ply after the original has cured will be more weight. Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com Bumpass, Va KR2XL construction at http://users.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Ultralights at http://users.erols.com/donreid/usua250.html --=====================_2521359==_.ALT-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 17:53:07 -0500 To: From: "x x" Subject: what if Message-ID: <001a01c06f8e$9e4a9120$6d4c2526@earthlink.net> ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C06F64.B40345E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable has any one tried to use glass instead of plywood on the boat section, = instead of ply wood Greg bikestop1@earthlink.net =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C06F64.B40345E0-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 18:06:43 EST To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: KMcKen@aol.com Subject: Boat Section Message-ID: <5c.50f9300.277a7e83@aol.com> --part1_5c.50f9300.277a7e83_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone and Happy Holidays. I am considering the KR2S, and have been researching it for a couple of years. I have some knowledge of the basic structure. Having built several RC Planes, I was just wondering if there would be any way that one could cut the sides from ply, scarf the joints and use bulkheads instead of building the boat in the normal manner. I do not have the plans as of yet, but I was wondering if someone could help me with a few dimensions. Horizontal area, Tail Area, washout, dihedral, wing span and wing area. I have a design program and just want to input some numbers and see what happens. Any help is greatly appreciated. Keith McKenzie Ft. Myers, FL. --part1_5c.50f9300.277a7e83_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 16:36:11 -0700 To: , From: "Brian Vasseur" Subject: Re: KR> Boat Section Message-ID: <006d01c06f94$a17f6ea0$2c45e4cf@C5477> From the number of bulkheads you'd need to build and because of how the spars join you'd add probably 50 pounds of weight doing it this way. One of the benefits to the way it's built currently is that the crossmembers distribute stress points more effectively for less weight than any other method. I built a VP1 which uses bulkheads at some places and it's definitely not the way to build an airplane. I also built a Minimax which is built like the KR. The minimax built faster. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 4:06 PM Subject: KR> Boat Section > Hi everyone and Happy Holidays. I am considering the KR2S, and have been > researching it for a couple of years. I have some knowledge of the basic > structure. Having built several RC Planes, I was just wondering if there > would be any way that one could cut the sides from ply, scarf the joints and > use bulkheads instead of building the boat in the normal manner. I do not > have the plans as of yet, but I was wondering if someone could help me with a > few dimensions. Horizontal area, Tail Area, washout, dihedral, wing span and > wing area. I have a design program and just want to input some numbers and > see what happens. Any help is greatly appreciated. > > Keith McKenzie > Ft. Myers, FL. > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 20:36:53 -0800 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Christine Coolidge Subject: Turbo setup for sale. Message-ID: <20001226.203656.-822385.0.USAUS@juno.com> OK all, I am over budget and out of cash on my 2S. I am selling my turbo setup so that I can put some instruments in my panel. RayJay turbo, Intake, exhaust with mechanical gate. I will throw in the remote oil cooler for the turbo as well. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 22:04:03 -0800 To: "x x" , From: Tracy & Carol O'Brien Subject: Re: KR> what if (Fiberglass panels) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20001226220403.00710838@localaccess.com> At 05:53 PM 12/26/2000 -0500, x x wrote: >has any one tried to use glass instead of plywood on the boat section, instead of ply wood > >Greg bikestop1@earthlink.net Netters: I've been considering this question since the original article on Ol' Ironsides was published in the November 1971 issue of Sport Aviation! In the summer of 1972 I was involved in fabricating some panels used as wing skins on a CA-61. Alex Strojnik deals with the subject starting on page 176 of "Low Power Laminar Aircraft Technologies". (The late Dr. Strojnik also presents a strong case for the use of fiberglass covered plywood: well worth reading about!) I made up a large number of test panels in the last year to evaluate possibilities for my current project. I made up samples with various combinations of 4, 6 & 10 ounce cloth, 3/4 oz matt, coremat and Nexus cloth: I have data for each of these laminates that includes thickness, weight per square foot, and specific gravity, (expressed in pounds per cubic inch). I have compared each of these laminates with both unfinished Occoume marine plywood and the same plywood epoxy sealed on one surface and sheathed with 4oz cloth and epoxy on the other surface. The "composite" panels were much less stiff for their weight than the plywood panels. The stiffest composite laminate for its weight was made up with 2mm coremat with 4oz faces. This panel weighed .0317 pounds per cubic inch, but weighed .397 pounds per square foot. 1/8" (3mm) Occoume marine plywood with 4oz cloth and an epoxy sealed back weighed the same per square foot as the 4oz/coremat/4oz cloth laminate but the plywood is noticably stiffer. Based on my findings, I have decided on my current project to use sheathed 3mm Occoume for the fuselage and sheathed 1.5mm Occoume for the wing top and bottom skins and aileron skins. I will use premolded fiberglass leading edges made up from 2 layers of 6oz cloth that has been "racked" prior to laminating: this will involve pulling on the opposite corners of the cloth so that the cross weave is as close to 45 degrees to the long weave as possible. Each of the two layers will be racked in the opposite direction to create a sort of triaxial laminate. (This laminate weighs .218 pounds per square foot). The 4oz cloth used to sheathe the wing skins will be applied after the wings are assembled and will go over the fiberglass leading edges. This will bridge the plywood to fiberglass joint and add an additional layer of cloth to the leading edge. Regards, Tracy O'Brien ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 06:02:33 -0700 To: Tracy & Carol O'Brien From: Ross Youngblood CC: x x , krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> what if (Fiberglass panels) Message-ID: <3A49E869.A62D6561@teleport.com> Tracy, I met Alex Strojnik at an EAA meeting about 10 years ago here in Mesa, AZ. He was great! He had been experimenting with the bonding properties of various adhesives and how they joined plexiglas to wood, and had brought several test pieces to the meeting. I was impressed that he was always thinking of new ideas. As I recall he lived in Tempe, and had built a very small airplane, and a sailplane which appeared in Soaring and Sport Aviation magazines. I'd like to know more about what he had to say about glass over plywood. -- Ross Tracy & Carol O'Brien wrote: > At 05:53 PM 12/26/2000 -0500, x x wrote: > >has any one tried to use glass instead of plywood on the boat section, > instead of ply wood > > > >Greg bikestop1@earthlink.net > > Netters: > > I've been considering this question since the original article on Ol' > Ironsides was published in the November 1971 issue of Sport Aviation! In > the summer of 1972 I was involved in fabricating some panels used as wing > skins on a CA-61. > > Alex Strojnik deals with the subject starting on page 176 of "Low Power > Laminar Aircraft Technologies". (The late Dr. Strojnik also presents a > strong case for the use of fiberglass covered plywood: well worth reading > about!) > > I made up a large number of test panels in the last year to evaluate > possibilities for my current project. I made up samples with various > combinations of 4, 6 & 10 ounce cloth, 3/4 oz matt, coremat and Nexus > cloth: I have data for each of these laminates that includes thickness, > weight per square foot, and specific gravity, (expressed in pounds per > cubic inch). > > I have compared each of these laminates with both unfinished Occoume marine > plywood and the same plywood epoxy sealed on one surface and sheathed with > 4oz cloth and epoxy on the other surface. > > The "composite" panels were much less stiff for their weight than the > plywood panels. The stiffest composite laminate for its weight was made up > with 2mm coremat with 4oz faces. This panel weighed .0317 pounds per cubic > inch, but weighed .397 pounds per square foot. > > 1/8" (3mm) Occoume marine plywood with 4oz cloth and an epoxy sealed back > weighed the same per square foot as the 4oz/coremat/4oz cloth laminate but > the plywood is noticably stiffer. > > Based on my findings, I have decided on my current project to use sheathed > 3mm Occoume for the fuselage and sheathed 1.5mm Occoume for the wing top > and bottom skins and aileron skins. I will use premolded fiberglass leading > edges made up from 2 layers of 6oz cloth that has been "racked" prior to > laminating: this will involve pulling on the opposite corners of the cloth > so that the cross weave is as close to 45 degrees to the long weave as > possible. Each of the two layers will be racked in the opposite direction > to create a sort of triaxial laminate. (This laminate weighs .218 pounds > per square foot). > > The 4oz cloth used to sheathe the wing skins will be applied after the > wings are assembled and will go over the fiberglass leading edges. This > will bridge the plywood to fiberglass joint and add an additional layer of > cloth to the leading edge. > > Regards, > > Tracy O'Brien > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 01:18:06 -0800 (PST) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: vincent chrisovergis Subject: delete Message-ID: <20001227091806.13465.qmail@web6305.mail.yahoo.com> please will you cancell me the mailing list for the kr group thamks. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 11:34:57 +0200 To: 'vincent chrisovergis' , krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Livingstone, Danny (DJ)" Subject: RE: KR> delete Message-ID: Send a blank e-mail to the address below: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > -----Original Message----- > From: vincent chrisovergis [SMTP:vincechrisovergis@yahoo.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 11:18 AM > To: krnet@mailinglists.org > Subject: KR> delete > > please will you cancell me the mailing list for the kr > group thamks. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. All opinions expressed are the sender's own and not necessarily that of the employer. ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 09:28:34 -0500 To: From: "Robert" Subject: Re: KR> what if (Fiberglass panels & foam) Message-ID: <002601c07011$4bedbb40$6d84a6d0@robert> KRNetters, Has anyone tested the process of a fiberglass/foam/fiberglass sandwich VS the standard plywood/fiberglass? Would there be a weight gain of the two skins of fiberglass over a foam core, the foam being placed in between all the spaces of the framework of the KR fuselage? Would the extra time involved be worth the strength increase/weight loss if it works out that way? And mostly, would anything different then the standard way of building the KR increase the G rating or lessen the drag signifently enough to warrant the time increase it takes to build a KR? I received my KR1 plans with the B supplement yesterday and I'm very pleased. Does anyone know the G rating of the KR1? Also, please allow me to know if the G rating you'll tell me is the breaking point or the safe use point. Thanks, Robert PS Do you guys know how to "cut" and paste with the emphasis on the cutting part? It's not the great to have to go over what's already been read for no reason. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 09:45:17 -0800 To: Robert From: CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> what if (Fiberglass panels & foam) Message-ID: <3A4A2AAD.2D497EE5@pop.ptld.uswest.net> --------------A7838EBCAC164BE75F862415 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My KR2S plans (which i also just got about a week ago ) on page #6 Titled "Introduction" the last sentence of paragraph #1 reads as fallows: "Design stress loading is + 7 g's at 800 lbs gross and redline is 200 mph indicated." As to which they are referring safe use point or breaking point????? your plans should say some thing similar about the same place in the intro. would be my guess. Since the KR1 is the parent so to speak and the construction is supposed to be the same just smaller, I would guess in the + 6 or even the + 7 as with the KR2S.  Just my own thoughts on the question. Looking forward to building mine, Mr. Jody Balkema Robert wrote: > KRNetters, > > Has anyone tested the process of a fiberglass/foam/fiberglass sandwich VS > the standard plywood/fiberglass?  Would there be a weight gain of the two > skins of fiberglass over a foam core, the foam being placed in between all > the spaces of the framework of the KR fuselage?  Would the extra time > involved be worth the strength increase/weight loss if it works out that > way?  And mostly, would anything different then the standard way of building > the KR increase the G rating or lessen the drag signifently enough to > warrant the time increase it takes to build a KR? > > I received my KR1 plans with the B supplement yesterday and I'm very > pleased.  Does anyone know the G rating of the KR1?  Also, please allow me > to know if the G rating you'll tell me is the breaking point or the safe use > point. > > Thanks, > > Robert > > PS Do you guys know how to "cut" and paste with the emphasis on the cutting > part?  It's not the great to have to go over what's already been read for no > reason. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org --------------A7838EBCAC164BE75F862415-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 13:27:29 -0500 To: jodybalkema@uswest.net From: Marty Hammersmith CC: Robert , krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> what if (Fiberglass panels & foam) Message-ID: <3A4A3491.4096FC0F@worldnet.att.net> "Design limit" is a usable number I believe. When they say "ultimate load" they are usually talking 50% greater than "design limit". Loading to or near "ultimate" is not somewhere you want to be! jodybalkema@uswest.net wrote: > > My KR2S plans (which i also just got about a week ago ) on page #6 Titled > "Introduction" the last sentence of paragraph #1 reads as fallows: "Design > stress loading is + 7 g's at 800 lbs gross and redline is 200 mph indicated." As > to which they are referring safe use point or breaking point????? your plans > should say some thing similar about the same place in the intro. would be my > guess. Since the KR1 is the parent so to speak and the construction is supposed > to be the same just smaller, I would guess in the + 6 or even the + 7 as with > the KR2S. Just my own thoughts on the question. > > Looking forward to building mine, > Mr. Jody Balkema > > Robert wrote: > > > KRNetters, > > > > Has anyone tested the process of a fiberglass/foam/fiberglass sandwich VS > > the standard plywood/fiberglass? Would there be a weight gain of the two > > skins of fiberglass over a foam core, the foam being placed in between all > > the spaces of the framework of the KR fuselage? Would the extra time > > involved be worth the strength increase/weight loss if it works out that > > way? And mostly, would anything different then the standard way of building > > the KR increase the G rating or lessen the drag signifently enough to > > warrant the time increase it takes to build a KR? > > > > I received my KR1 plans with the B supplement yesterday and I'm very > > pleased. Does anyone know the G rating of the KR1? Also, please allow me > > to know if the G rating you'll tell me is the breaking point or the safe use > > point. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Robert > > > > PS Do you guys know how to "cut" and paste with the emphasis on the cutting > > part? It's not the great to have to go over what's already been read for no > > reason. > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org -- Marty Hammersmith http://www.geocities.com/mhammersmith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 10:28:01 -0800 (PST) To: Robert , krnet@mailinglists.org From: Frank Ross Subject: Re: KR> what if (Fiberglass panels & foam) Message-ID: <20001227182801.19130.qmail@web4704.mail.yahoo.com> Robert, Glad you're happy with the KR-1 plans. When I got mine I had never seen a set of plans and was real disappointed. As I began to learn more about building and looked at other plan sets, I grew to love the KR-1 more and more. It is important to keep KR building in perspective: it is an easy to build, inexpensive, easy to fly, easy to store and transport airplane. It can be made bigger, faster, more complex and more expensive, as Glasair, Lancair, etc have shown. No need for that. Hope you have a great time with your plane. As for the "cut and paste", be patient. New folk coming on the net all the time. Many regular contributors are very busy and we're just glad to get their comments without them taking the time to edit and correct. My favorite "pet-peeve" is folk who advertise but don't give a name or where in THE WORLD they are located. So who do you address your inquiry to? I may want an engine, or landing gear, but do I want to ship it to Texas from Idaho, or Bangladesh? Then there's guys like me who just ramble on and on... Welcome to the club. ===== Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 23:27:38 +0000 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Carlton Blandford Subject: Plywood/Foam Message-id: <004301c06f93$abfaf440$88df1ec4@genesis2> ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C06F93.6F8C1160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings Chaps, What are your views on using 1mm plywood skins on the wings and tail = surfaces. 6oz cloth would be used to seal and add additional strength = to the 1mm ply. Has any one done this?=20 Foam and glass is lighter (if no fillers are used) but ply gives a = better finish and is less labour intensive.=20 Also, no bubbles Regards Carlton=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C06F93.6F8C1160-- ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************