From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 8 Mar 2001 16:07:46 -0000 Issue 186 Date: Thursday, March 08, 2001 8:08 AM krnet Digest 8 Mar 2001 16:07:46 -0000 Issue 186 Topics (messages 4445 through 4474): Question regarding gap seals 4445 by: RONALD.FREIBERGER 4450 by: Albert Pecoraro Re: New airfoil on KR 2... 4446 by: flykr2s.execpc.com 4458 by: Dr. No Re: longitudinal stability 4447 by: R.H.Mole.open.ac.uk dual sticks 4448 by: Jerry Mahurin MAC SERVO 4449 by: Bill Gaudlip 4451 by: Donald Reid CONGRATS AND GAPS 4452 by: Bill Gaudlip Troy's is a 2? 4453 by: CS 4454 by: flykr2s.execpc.com 4455 by: KR2616TJ.aol.com Re: New Web Site 4456 by: Leonardo Re: N-299DS Initial Data (AS5048) 4457 by: Payne, Scott wings 4459 by: Sam O. Walton kr.sun-n-fun 4460 by: T152GMAN.aol.com Rod-end bearing lubricant ... 4461 by: Albert Pecoraro 4469 by: Linda Warner Re: KR Web link 4462 by: John Bryhan 4465 by: Ron Eason KRnet 4463 by: Robert Cooper Jack's Page... 4464 by: CS KRs at Sun N Fun 4466 by: Frank Ross 4467 by: KRkip.aol.com more tail stuff 4468 by: Manager Bill 4470 by: KR2616TJ.aol.com 4472 by: Ron Eason 4473 by: KR2616TJ.aol.com 4474 by: Frank Ross Just for fun. 4471 by: KR2616TJ.aol.com Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:05:09 -0500 To: "KRNET" , "Leonardo" From: "RONALD.FREIBERGER" Subject: Question regarding gap seals Message-ID: Leonardo, If you meant my note, I was referring to the gap between the sub wing and outer wing. Duct tape will work. But not on an airplane as handsome as yours ;o) An aluminum strip can be glued down with silicone sealant, and pulled of if needed without damaging paint. If there's some irregularity ( like mine, not yours, then make a fibergless strip. Ron Freiberger... mailto:ron.martha@mindspring.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:11:01 -0500 To: "kr2s group" From: "Albert Pecoraro" Subject: Re: KR> Question regarding gap seals Message-ID: <001e01c0a731$f9210220$c7d4b23f@steelcase.com> Leonardo, Here is another method that you should consider. I saw it last year on Jim Faughn's KR. This is strictly from memory, so if I make a mistake, someone please correct it: Use a mylar strip about 2.5 inches / 65mm wide to cover the gap and 3M 444 dual-sided adhesive to apply the mylar to to wing. I know this will become a popular method of addressing the gap seal issue ... I have pictures of at least 5 people crawling on the ground underneath Jim's plane to take a pitcure of his gap-seal solution! (I was the 6th person! ;-) Take care. Albert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 10:20:30 -0600 (CST) To: CS From: flykr2s@execpc.com Cc: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> New airfoil on KR 2... Message-Id: <200103071620.KAA59556@nm0.nwbl.wi.voyager.net> Troy's plane is a 2. And yes the airfoil can be used on either the 2 or 2S. Mark Jones > Hi all, > > Is anyone currently flying or building a 2 (not a 2S) > with the new airfoil? All I've found so far is on the > 2S. On Mark L.'s page he refers to Troy's KR 2 and > Dean's (Selby) KR. Is either of these a 2? I can't > find a website for Dean and can't tell from the pics > of Troy's plane. > > I'm assuming the wing works okay on either one...? > > Thanks. > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 15:04:31 -0600 To: krnet From: "Dr. No" Subject: Re: KR> New airfoil on KR 2... Message-ID: <3AA6A258.7D61AA7D@pol.net> I'm putting the new airfoil on mine, which has a sligtly widened fuse but is otherwise dimensionally a KR2. (Although I'm going to call it a KR2.5) One wing is done and is butt-ugly but will look much better in primer, I'm sure. Scott CS wrote: > Hi all, > > Is anyone currently flying or building a 2 (not a 2S) > with the new airfoil? All I've found so far is on the > 2S. On Mark L.'s page he refers to Troy's KR 2 and > Dean's (Selby) KR. Is either of these a 2? I can't > find a website for Dean and can't tell from the pics > of Troy's plane. > > I'm assuming the wing works okay on either one...? > > Thanks. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:32:33 -0000 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: R.H.Mole@open.ac.uk Subject: FW: longitudinal stability Message-ID: > Bill, > > with respect, I think you would agree that anybody who has read Perkins > and Hage and understood even a small proportion would know that there are > many metrics for differing aspects of longitudinal stability: > > * margin stick fixed > * margin stick free > * stick force per g (related to seond bullet of course) > * Its simply not true to assert that tail volume ratio is the only > thing that matters, although it is of course an important intermediate > value that figures in all of the above. > * Neither is tail moment arm as multiople of mac (of course) such a > dominant parameter as a quick reading of your post might imply > * cg is extremely important of course > * If you can supply evidence that the published aft cg confers an > acceptable stick force per g then I would be quite amazed (so would some > others, I guess) > * having said that, there are a host of other parameters that need to > be accurately estimated and for which data are actually quite difficult to > find for any serious longitudinal stability analysis > * Does your slide rule tell you the destabilising contribution of the > fuselage - or did you - like me, carry out a strip analysis? Sums of > products are not really helped very much by slide rule technology which > only computes the products, if my memory serves me right. Even a $5 > calculator carries 8 or more sf > * and I might add that Dana's tail was built after after a careful and > detailed study using exactly the same methodology described by Perkins and > Hage and using authoritative data; some from RAeS data sheets and some > from NACA sources > > So please don't just assume that Dana's tail was some weird eye-balling > outcome. > > Now Bill, have you actually done a complete analysis - or not? I think we > ought to know. > > Blue skies > > Richard > - > > Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 22:10:57 -0700 > To: Krnet > From: Manager Bill > Subject: horizontal tails > Message-ID: <3AA1CE5F.ED421774@nm.net> > > To Rex Ellington, Dana Overall, and all you other tail tinkerers on > KRnet: > > This is not a flame, it is just a statement repeating much of what I > said at the KR forum during Sun N Fun last April. Go read "Airplane > Performance, Stability and Control," by Perkins and Hage. The > longitudinal stability of any airplane is determined by a single number: > the distance between the airplane center of gravity and its point of > neutral stability. What this means is that anything you can do by > increasing tail length or tail area can be done by simply moving the > center of gravity forward. All the tail area you need is whatever is > required to trim the airplane in pitch. Look at the Fokker T-2 hanging > in the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum. Its horizontal tail is > minuscule compared to its wing area, yet it made the first nonstop > coast-to-coast flight in history. Look at canards like the Rutan > designs; if you make the horizontal tail (the aft surface) big enough, > you can fly with the c.g. several chord lengths aft of the forward > wing's trailing edge. Or, if you want the biggest surface to be the > wing, if you move the c.g. far enough forward, you can have negative > trail length (horizontal tail in front of the wing)! Same configuration, > different ways of looking at it, but the important point is not the > relative areas, but the center of gravity location. > > Having said all that, I will stick my neck out a little further. Long > tail and small area are better than short tail and large area, because > the "damping effect" of long tail arms is greater than that of short > arms. That is, up-and-down oscillations in pitch will die out much > faster with a long tail than with a short one, even though the product > of tail arm x tail area is the same. The result is an airplane that > feels more steady and stable. Like the Pontiac commercials say, "wider > (longer) is better." > > Incidentally, I call myself "manager Bill" rather than "engineer Bill" > because I am attempting to manage a small charitable organization called > the Kiddie Hawk Air Academy. Read about us on the Web at > www.kiddiehawk.org; we are dedicated to aviation education for little > kids, and that is why the e-mail address is kids2fly. > > To Bernie Wunder: My slide rule is a 1949 K&E log log duplex vector > model, and yep, I can still use it! > > Bill Marcy > Hired Gun for Jeannette Rand > > ************* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:38:19 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Jerry Mahurin" Subject: dual sticks Message-ID: Netters, Thanx for the many responses for help on dual sticks....!! After reading them and going to their references and researching the whole thing, I am going to go with the sticks outlined in KR Newsletter #186. Those are the ones in 'Dumbo' as mentioned in my original post. Still haven't heard anything on David Carroll... Thanx again for all the helpful responses, Jerry Mahurin Lugoff, SC _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:51:41 -0500 To: "KRNET" From: "Bill Gaudlip" Subject: MAC SERVO Message-ID: <003a01c0a72f$44e2f540$b5131204@BillGaudlip> ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C0A705.5B6CB5A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, I was wondering if any of the KR drivers out there using = flaps feel they could be actuated by using a MAC type servo instead of = the conventional type handle. I am currently using RR's flap handle = mounted between the seat area of my 2. I have found it a little trickee = to get to with two people in the cockpit. I just thought since I'm using = the MAC to actuate my trim tab that a similar set up could be used for = the flaps to save space and make it easier to use. Any help on this = thought would be greatly appreciated!! Bill Gaudlip Hooversville PA bgaudlip@lenzlink.net=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C0A705.5B6CB5A0-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 13:41:01 -0500 To: From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR> MAC SERVO Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010307133750.009f6ba0@pop.erols.com> --=====================_3818623==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:51 PM 3/7/2001 -0500, Bill Gaudlip wrote: >Hi All, > I was wondering if any of the KR drivers out there using > flaps feel they could be actuated by using a MAC type servo instead of > the conventional type handle. I assume that you mean a servo actuated, not necessarily a MAC. The MAC is much too small to use for the flaps. I would have had the same problem with room, so I adapted a satellite dish actuator to drive my flaps. Details can be found on my web site. Given my choice, I would really prefer manual. Much simpler and lighter. Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com Bumpass, Va Visit my web sites at: KR2XL construction: http://users.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org Ultralights: http://usua250.org --=====================_3818623==_.ALT-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:32:28 -0500 To: "KRNET" From: "Bill Gaudlip" Subject: CONGRATS AND GAPS Message-ID: <003a01c0a734$f7774260$6e131204@BillGaudlip> ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C0A70B.0DF1C080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Netters, Fist off congratulations Dean on your completion!! I = know all too well how it feels to finally get it done.=20 Leonardo, =20 In response to the wing gap seals, I wrapped a strip of = plastic about a foot wide around my entire wing top and bottom and laid = up two layers of glass about 4" wide over the plastic centered over the = gap. I trimmed it to about 3" and fastened it with small screws to the = wings for removal. The reason or the wet lay-up was due to the trouble I = had trying to get a flat piece of glass to conform to my wing shape even = using a heat gun to soften it. Now I have a seal that is formed = perfectly to my wing that can be removed for condition inspections etc. = There are many ways to combat this situation, just thought I'd share my = solution. Bill Gaudlip Hooversville PA ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C0A70B.0DF1C080-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:14:16 -0800 (PST) To: flykr2s@execpc.com From: CS Cc: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Troy's is a 2? Message-ID: <20010307191416.19570.qmail@web2302.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Mark, --- flykr2s@execpc.com wrote: > Troy's plane is a 2. And yes the airfoil can be used > on either the 2 > or 2S. > Mark Jones -------------------------- Just found Mark L.'s page on Troy's plane here: http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/troy/ by going through Donald Reid's list of builder's pages. About 4/5s of the way down the page there's this comment: "Troy's using the AS5046 airfoil, with a stock KR2S planform." Anyways, the project I bought is a 2 and I'm going to find SOME way to integrate the 5046 design into it (along with a few other mods, I'm sure). My motto is, "If it ain't broke--break it." Chuck __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:28:52 -0600 (CST) To: CS From: flykr2s@execpc.com Cc: flykr2s@execpc.com, krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Troy's is a 2? Message-Id: <200103071928.NAA61423@nm2.nwbl.wi.voyager.net> Chuck, I just did a search on the FAA N number data base and Troy's KR N100TP is listed as a registered 1994 KR-2. Mark Jones > Hi Mark, > > --- flykr2s@execpc.com wrote: > > Troy's plane is a 2. And yes the airfoil can be used > > on either the 2 > > or 2S. > > Mark Jones > -------------------------- > Just found Mark L.'s page on Troy's plane here: > > http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/troy/ > > by going through Donald Reid's list of builder's > pages. > About 4/5s of the way down the page there's this > comment: > > "Troy's using the AS5046 airfoil, with a stock KR2S > planform." > > Anyways, the project I bought is a 2 and I'm going to > find SOME way to integrate the 5046 design into it > (along with a few other mods, I'm sure). My motto is, > "If it ain't broke--break it." > > Chuck > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:55:52 EST To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> Troy's is a 2? Message-ID: <7b.1133e69c.27d7ec48@aol.com> --part1_7b.1133e69c.27d7ec48_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Troy's KR is definitely a straight 2. Dana Overall 2000 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/hangar/7085/ --part1_7b.1133e69c.27d7ec48_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 18:51:33 -0300 To: "David Mullins" , "krnet" From: "Leonardo" Subject: Re: KR> New Web Site Message-ID: <005401c0a750$c73d9ce0$bad6fea9@estacao1> DAVID !!!! YOU DID A GREAT JOB IN YOUR HOME PAGE . IT'S JUST OUTSTANDING... IT'S NICE TO SEE PEOPLE THAT LOVE TO SHARE KNOWLEDGE WITH OTHERS , . KEEP DOING THIS GREAT JOB. LEO,BRAZIL,KR2S http://geocities.com/leoadrena/krpage.html -----Mensagem original----- De: David Mullins Para: krnet Data: Segunda-feira, 5 de Março de 2001 21:36 Assunto: KR> New Web Site > > >Well Netters, > >It's finally ready for public consumption. > >I have plenty more photos to take, resize, and write about, > >but, here goes. My website can be viewed at: > >Http://www.n323xl.iwarp.com > >Please visit and let me know what you think. > >Thanks, > > >Dave M >Nashua, New Hampshire >KR2S N323XL > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 15:49:15 -0500 To: 'Dean Selby' , krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Payne, Scott" Subject: RE: KR> N-299DS Initial Data (AS5048) Message-ID: Congratulations Dean on your KR2S. Do you think you will be at Sun-n-Fun? D. Scott Payne, Network Administrator Children's Healtcare of Atlanta 975 Johnson Ferry Rd, Ste 350 Atlanta, GA 30342 -----Original Message----- From: Dean Selby [mailto:deans@usit.net] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 4:17 PM To: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: KR> N-299DS Initial Data (AS5048) I have had several people ask what kind of numbers I have been getting with the "new" airfoil. I started not to send this on the net with all the flaming going on so please, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I saw the expected numbers and made a decision. N-299DS is a 2S with AS5048 (+1 deg. incidence) tapered to AS5046 (-2deg. incidence) with 8" extension + 4" wingtip on each wing. The hor. stab. and elevator have had 3.5" added to each side. It is fixed gear with gear legs 3.5" longer than stock profile. No preformed parts; I laid up all my own fiberglass. The plane is in primer; no slick finish and there is some dryspray, overspray, and sand scratches still left. I'll paint when I'm satisified ther are going to be no major changes (maybe by the gathering). The engine is a VW 1915 (75HP) with a Tennessee Propellers 5048 prop. Empty weight is 674 lbs. Cruise @3350Rpm 145mph climbout w/o gap seals 450-500fpm @ 100mph climbout w gap seals 900-950fpm @ 100mph stall power on 55 w/buffet at approx 57 stall power off 59 w/buffet at approx 61 Gap seals made a tremendous difference (almost double) in rate of climb but had little effect on cruise or top speed.These are early numbers as the plane has less than 10 hrs. on it but here they are for your enjoyment. Please no critism if your not interested just delete. Dean Selby deans@usit.net (931)761-8633 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:58:57 -0600 To: From: "Sam O. Walton" Subject: wings Message-ID: <000e01c0a749$6ec30660$47d602cf@cst.net> ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C0A717.22F14EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Will a AS5045-5048 wing set up work on a KR1? ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C0A717.22F14EE0-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:28:12 EST To: krjeb@qwest.net, ron@jrl-engineering.com, dmullins@ici.net, krnet@mailinglists.org From: T152GMAN@aol.com Subject: kr.sun-n-fun Message-ID: --part1_a7.c56de9f.27d80ffc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just wondering how many kr's will be going to sun -n-fun? And what days to expect them. --part1_a7.c56de9f.27d80ffc_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:34:17 -0500 To: "kr2s group" From: "Albert Pecoraro" Subject: Rod-end bearing lubricant ... Message-ID: <002001c0a756$c3aa0720$17d4b23f@steelcase.com> ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C0A72C.D61565A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Netters, What is the proper cleanser and lubricant to use on rod-end bearings = that have binded? (I think that's the correct term).=20 I had my stabilizer hanging on the garage wall for a few months and when = I took it down today I noticed that the bearings did not rotate as = easily as they once did.=20 I am weary of using a degreaser. I also have a can of lithium lubricant. = Can I use this? ... Thanks. Albert ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C0A72C.D61565A0-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 01:29:18 -0500 (EST) To: gryphonflier@earthlink.net, krnet@mailinglists.org From: jaslkw@webtv.net (Linda Warner) Subject: Fwd: KR> Rod-end bearing lubricant ... Message-ID: <29939-3AA726BE-2061@storefull-225.iap.bryant.webtv.net> --WebTV-Mail-11133-1124 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Hi Albert. My advice on sticking or rusty rod ends would be to carefully clean the inner rotating balls with something like a scotch brite pad using solvent or kerosine or even WD-40. This should free them up. As for a good lubricant, a light oil should do the trick. Lithium grease would lube them also, but would be a little more prone to attract dust and grit. I use a lubricant called LPS-2 which is availble locally. It has good staying quality (better than WD-40), if you want something greaseless, the try LPS-1. What do you other mechanics out there use? John Sickafoose A/P Naple, Fl --WebTV-Mail-11133-1124 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from smtpin-102-5.bryant.webtv.net (209.240.198.31) by storefull-226.iap.bryant.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:31:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by smtpin-102-5.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) id E8004134; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:31:19 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: jaslkw@webtv.net Received: from mailinglists.org (server1.mailinglists.org [63.160.175.18]) by smtpin-102-5.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with SMTP id 3872A10B for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:31:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8397 invoked by alias); 7 Mar 2001 22:31:11 -0000 Mailing-List: contact krnet-help@mailinglists.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list krnet@mailinglists.org Received: (qmail 8388 invoked from network); 7 Mar 2001 22:31:10 -0000 Message-ID: <002001c0a756$c3aa0720$17d4b23f@steelcase.com> From: "Albert Pecoraro" To: "kr2s group" Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:34:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01C0A72C.D61565A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Subject: KR> Rod-end bearing lubricant ... ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C0A72C.D61565A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Netters, What is the proper cleanser and lubricant to use on rod-end bearings = that have binded? (I think that's the correct term).=20 I had my stabilizer hanging on the garage wall for a few months and when = I took it down today I noticed that the bearings did not rotate as = easily as they once did.=20 I am weary of using a degreaser. I also have a can of lithium lubricant. = Can I use this? ... Thanks. Albert ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C0A72C.D61565A0-- --WebTV-Mail-11133-1124-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:49:56 -0700 To: GoFlySlow2@aol.com From: John Bryhan CC: KRnet Subject: Re: KR Web link Chuck - thanks for the URL and the performance numbers Nice looking plane too! added it to my links page - > > There are a few pics of my KR-2 located on my web site - ANGEL FLIGHT > ULTRALIGHTS > This KR-2 (N32U) was completed in 1992. by Ralph V. Sawyer. > 1835cc HAPI engine, Bendix Carb, Stinger Exhaust, Single Mag Ignition. > > Great American Prop. 52" X 42" > Fuselage length 15' 2" > Wing Span 23' 4.5" > Empty Weight 667.5 (less oil & Head phones = 658lbs) 14.5 Gal. fuel tank > > > Gross weight tested in flight 1130.5 lbs > Cruise @ 2900 rpm = 130mph & 3250 rpm = 150 mph > Stall - Power on - full fuel - 190lb pilot = 45mph Power off = 50mph > indicated > > Best angle climb Vx = 85mph Best Rate Vy = 95mph > Climb Vx @ 2420 ft MSL at 65F = 600 ft/min. Density Alt = 3,000ft > Excellent forward visibility. Landings are tail wheel first. > Thanks, > > Chuck Scrivner John Bryhan Los Alamos NM mailto:krjeb@qwest.net http://www.users.qwest.net/~bje25/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 20:17:15 -0600 To: , From: "Ron Eason" Cc: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR> Re: KR Web link Message-ID: <006201c0a775$e6457de0$8c7239ce@dana-coe> Sounds like a good performer. Have fun with it. KRRon -----Original Message----- From: John Bryhan To: GoFlySlow2@aol.com Cc: KRnet Date: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 7:07 PM Subject: KR> Re: KR Web link >Chuck - thanks for the URL and the performance numbers >Nice looking plane too! >added it to my links page - >> >> There are a few pics of my KR-2 located on my web site - ANGEL FLIGHT >> ULTRALIGHTS >> This KR-2 (N32U) was completed in 1992. by Ralph V. Sawyer. >> 1835cc HAPI engine, Bendix Carb, Stinger Exhaust, Single Mag Ignition. >> >> Great American Prop. 52" X 42" >> Fuselage length 15' 2" >> Wing Span 23' 4.5" >> Empty Weight 667.5 (less oil & Head phones = 658lbs) 14.5 Gal. fuel tank >> >> >> Gross weight tested in flight 1130.5 lbs >> Cruise @ 2900 rpm = 130mph & 3250 rpm = 150 mph >> Stall - Power on - full fuel - 190lb pilot = 45mph Power off = 50mph >> indicated >> >> Best angle climb Vx = 85mph Best Rate Vy = 95mph >> Climb Vx @ 2420 ft MSL at 65F = 600 ft/min. Density Alt = 3,000ft >> Excellent forward visibility. Landings are tail wheel first. >> Thanks, >> >> Chuck Scrivner > > > John Bryhan > Los Alamos NM > mailto:krjeb@qwest.net > http://www.users.qwest.net/~bje25/ > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 20:19:33 -0800 To: "krnet" From: "Robert Cooper" Subject: KRnet Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C0A743.EC6EB6A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello again KR netters I have just rejoined KR net. I seem to get droped from time to time, don= 't know why. =20 I'm planning on going to Sun n Fun and was wondering if there will be a c= ertain place to meet other KR people. I've never been to Sun n Fun so any= help is appreciated. Jack Cooper mailto:kr2cooper@msn.com http://www.geocities.com/kr2cooper/ Fayetteville, NC.
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------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C0A743.EC6EB6A0-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:48:09 -0800 (PST) To: Robert Cooper , krnet From: CS Subject: Jack's Page... Message-ID: <20010308014809.28931.qmail@web2303.mail.yahoo.com> Hey Jack, Thanks for sharing the page with us. As a new builder, I've set up a special "Favorites" folder for all KR builders...when I need help or just a new take on an idea, that's where I head. Probably won't make SnF or Gathering this year, but...I'm coming to join ya, Marty! Chuck __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 18:47:22 -0800 (PST) To: krnet From: Frank Ross Subject: KRs at Sun N Fun Message-ID: <20010308024722.13944.qmail@web4702.mail.yahoo.com> Jack, others, So far it seems the best bet is to check in at the KR booth and sign up for the dinner Tues nite ($15). Haven't heard yet it there's a KR Forum this year. Haven't heard from anyone who is flying a KR in yet. See you there. ===== Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:27:54 EST To: kae_ar@yahoo.com, krnet@mailinglists.org From: KRkip@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> KRs at Sun N Fun Message-ID: <42.11b08bd1.27d8563a@aol.com> HI guys I plan on flying my Kr to SNF this year from Maine weather permitting.I plan on arriving on sat and staying till wed. My route of flight will be down the east coast with planned stops in Salisbury Maryland and Charleston SouthCarolina. I am going to leave Maine a week before SNF and plan to stay at my home in Palm Coast Florida before heading over to Lakeland. I am going to keep my plane at Flagler airport while i am in PalmCoast so if there are any KR guys that want a intro flight in that area please contact me and hopefully we can get together Kip Lounsbury Lincoln Maine ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 22:16:35 -0700 To: Krnet From: Manager Bill Subject: more tail stuff Message-ID: <3AA715AF.61577EB@nm.net> March 7 To Dana Overall and others who have commented on the tail area discussion I published on March 4.. Sorry for the delay here. First some basics: an airplane has a longitudinal axis running through its center of gravity from the nose to the tail. It is generally defined by the designer. The airplane has a lateral axis running through the center of gravity and parallel to the wingtips. And, the airplane has a vertical axis running through the center of gravity at right angles to both the longitudinal axis and the lateral axis. Apparently to confound the thoughtful, the stability of rotation about the lateral axis is called longitudinal stability, the stability of rotation about the longitudinal axis is called lateral stability, and the stability of motion about the vertical axis is called directional stability. Another set of terms reduces the confusion: motion about the lateral axis is called pitch stability, motion about the longitudinal axis is called roll stability, and motion about the vertical axis is called yaw stability. I should never have used the word longitudinal, I should have used the word pitch. This may seem trivial to a lot of you, but I want to be straightforward and clear about what I say. To be more exact, I am going to write here only about power-off, stick fixed static stability. Again I entreat you: go read Chapter 5 of the book Airplane Performance, Stability and Control, by Perkins and Hage, original copyright 1949. Their equation number 5-34 says exactly what I said and what Dana said in his quotes: Stability is determined by the location of the center of gravity in relation to the center of pressure (actually this should be the location relative to the neutral point, which is the point at which the pitching moment of the complete airplane is independent of the lift coefficient. This distance, divided by the mean aerodynamic chord, is called the static margin, and the larger (more negative) it is, the more stable is the airplane. There are actually several static margins: stick fixed, power off; stick fixed, power on; stick free, power off; stick free, power on; all four of these with gear or flaps or both down, and so on. And, of course, the center of gravity depends on how the airplane is loaded. Pilot, passenger, fuel and baggage all influence the C.G. and therefore the stability of the airplane. It is the responsibility of the designed to select a horizontal stabilizer and elevator area that will stabilize the airplane with the C.G. at its most aft location and yet be powerful enough to pitch the airplane to its maximum lift coefficient with the C.G. at is most forward location. Because it is pretty simple and involves the fewest variables, the stick fixed, power off stability is usually the first number discussed. And if the stick fixed, power off stability is inadequate, most of the other will be inadequate also. The static margin can be increased in three ways: the neutral point can be moved backward by increasing the tail length or the horizontal tail area, the mean aerodynamic chord can be decreased, or the center of gravity can be moved forward. Any chart that compares tail area to wing area without considering either aspect ratio or C.G. location to show whether an airplane is stable or unstable is at best an approximation. I will say it again: the KR is not an unstable airplane just because its tail area ratio is smaller than some other airplanes. I described the Fokker T-2 as an example of a relatively small tail area, and I described two ways of analyzing a canard configuration to show that C.G. location can solve many problems. Then I went astray and got into dynamic stability by saying that long tail, small area is better than short tail, small area. Finally I compared the rollover stability of the Pontiac commercials to the pitch stability of airplanes and got Dana to think I was confusing lateral stability with longitudinal stability. No, I just didn’t make the analogy plain enough. This is not to say that the KR-2 and 2S cannot be improved; it can be. But I am not convinced that it is essential to change the tail. From what I’ve read about the sensitivity of the pitch control, I believe there is plenty of elevator effectiveness to handle a much more forward C.G. than is shown on the plans. However, as I said in another note, the taildraggers are limited because if the C.G. gets too far forward it falls on the prop too easily. I guess this is one argument in favor of nosewheels. (As one who learned to fly in a Taylorcraft, this is a hard thing to admit.) However, it should not be very hard to tilt the fixed gear forward a few inches, so even the taildraggers, unless they stay with the retract system, can be stabilized by moving the C.G. forward. One more thing: stability is always discussed in relation to movement or oscillation about a state of equilibrium. That is, the airplane must be trimmed before its stability can be discussed. So in a very simplistic way, I look on the tail as the trimming device and the C.G. as the stabilizing device, but of course they are interdependent. The important thing to remember is always start analyzing from a trimmed condition, or you are likely to get a wrong or misleading result. I gave a talk on pitch stability at the KR forum during Sun N Fun 1997, and wrote it up in a report to Jeannette Rand in May 1997. I understood she was going to publish it in the KR newsletter; does anyone remember it? I am not a KR builder, so I have never seen a newsletter. This has been a rather long winded discussion, but I want to minimize the misunderstandings. Chris, I will get to your wing loadings tomorrow. Bill Marcy old paper and pencil engineerÄ` ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 08:23:33 EST To: kids2fly@nm.net, krnet@mailinglists.org From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> more tail stuff Message-ID: --part1_b4.12550317.27d8e1d5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/8/01 12:11:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, kids2fly@nm.net writes: > This is not to say that the KR-2 and 2S cannot be improved; it can be. > Nothing is essential, but it sure helps the airplane. Opinions are just that without numbers. The stick free neutral point is always forward of the stick fixed neutral point and further density altitude plays into the stick free maneuvering margins. The longer you make the CG range, the better off you are in the real world. Increasing the area of the HS is a very simple fix and the numbers, lots of grains of salt, prove it. Sorry to put the masses through all of this, the numbers are there, not the BS. More numbers, the stick fixed neutral point of the 2 12.75 the stick free neutral point is 11.8. The 2S is 13.5 and 12.2 respectively, with it being necessary for the CG to be forward of the stick free to account for power. OK, lets shoot another hole. You are encouraging the movement of the CG forward with no other changes. As the CG moves forward, more aerodynamic down force is required on the horizontal stab to maintain stability. There are several factors that do this. Speed, angle, size. So, let's look at this. If I don't have the speed, I don't have the downforce I want. If I don't have the downforce I want what happens to the nose? It flat out departs at a higher speed than it does with the CG more aft. The arguments, when looked at with a real world eye, don't hold water. Bedazzled with quotes but I haven't seen any numbers other than what I have put out to support the conclusion that the horizontal stab cannot be improved upon. The most important question has not been answered to indicate that any analysis has been done by the hired gun, paper engineer. Does the published CG range, particularly the aft point, fall within the actual CG range of this airplane? Until you answer this, it is apparent a full analysis of this airplane has not been performed by you. Don't get me wrong guys, I'm not belittling the KR just pointing out that after 30 years there are some things that can be improved upon. The KR may have been the third stone to come off the mountaintop, but we've moved past stone and paper calculations. Enough is enough, decide what you want to do guys but base it on something imperial not bedazzled with BS. If you want to build the HS according to plans do it, it'll fly. Call Mr. Robinson and ask him what engineering went into the stab, it'll surprise you. Kinda like why is the incidence set at 3.5.........because we initially had it at 5 and didn't like the way it flew. Time to move on. Dana Overall 2000 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/hangar/7085/ --part1_b4.12550317.27d8e1d5_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 07:54:57 -0800 To: KR2616TJ@aol.com From: "Ronald R. Eason Sr." CC: kids2fly@nm.net, krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> more tail stuff Message-ID: <3AA7AB51.C7752549@jrl-engineering.com> Question, have you flown your KR in the real world yet? KRRon KR2616TJ@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/8/01 12:11:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, kids2fly@nm.net > writes: > > > This is not to say that the KR-2 and 2S cannot be improved; it can be. > > > > Nothing is essential, but it sure helps the airplane. Opinions are just that > without numbers. The stick free neutral point is always forward of the stick > fixed neutral point and further density altitude plays into the stick free > maneuvering margins. The longer you make the CG range, the better off you > are in the real world. Increasing the area of the HS is a very simple fix > and the numbers, lots of grains of salt, prove it. Sorry to put the masses > through all of this, the numbers are there, not the BS. More numbers, the > stick fixed neutral point of the 2 12.75 the stick free neutral point is > 11.8. The 2S is 13.5 and 12.2 respectively, with it being necessary for the > CG to be forward of the stick free to account for power. > > OK, lets shoot another hole. You are encouraging the movement of the CG > forward with no other changes. As the CG moves forward, more aerodynamic > down force is required on the horizontal stab to maintain stability. There > are several factors that do this. Speed, angle, size. So, let's look at > this. If I don't have the speed, I don't have the downforce I want. If I > don't have the downforce I want what happens to the nose? It flat out > departs at a higher speed than it does with the CG more aft. The arguments, > when looked at with a real world eye, don't hold water. > > Bedazzled with quotes but I haven't seen any numbers other than what I have > put out to support the conclusion that the horizontal stab cannot be improved > upon. > > The most important question has not been answered to indicate that any > analysis has been done by the hired gun, paper engineer. Does the published > CG range, particularly the aft point, fall within the actual CG range of this > airplane? Until you answer this, it is apparent a full analysis of this > airplane has not been performed by you. > > Don't get me wrong guys, I'm not belittling the KR just pointing out that > after 30 years there are some things that can be improved upon. The KR may > have been the third stone to come off the mountaintop, but we've moved past > stone and paper calculations. > > Enough is enough, decide what you want to do guys but base it on something > imperial not bedazzled with BS. If you want to build the HS according to > plans do it, it'll fly. Call Mr. Robinson and ask him what engineering went > into the stab, it'll surprise you. Kinda like why is the incidence set at > 3.5.........because we initially had it at 5 and didn't like the way it flew. > > Time to move on. > > Dana Overall > 2000 KR Gathering host > Richmond, KY > mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/hangar/7085/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:26:03 EST To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> more tail stuff Message-ID: --part1_c6.124dfeba.27d8f07b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/8/01 8:42:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, ron@jrl-engineering.com writes: > Question, have you flown your KR in the real world yet? > > If this question is too me, the answer is YES, I have flown KR's. Now the next question to you, is what does that have to do with stick fixed and free neutral points? OH, I forgot you are an engineer and the one who chastised me last year during my grieving over the sudden death of my 17 year old niece. Sorry, you must have figured the question was relevant. Do you build a true to size bridge before you build the real one, or do you model it based on generally accepted engineering principles? I fail to see the relavence. Care for another free shot. If you want a total of all including type, private, commercial, VFR, IFR, CFI training I'll be glad to reply to that also. Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/hangar/7085/ --part1_c6.124dfeba.27d8f07b_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 08:07:40 -0800 (PST) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Frank Ross Subject: Re: KR> more tail stuff Message-ID: <20010308160740.23546.qmail@web4705.mail.yahoo.com> Time to move on. Dana Overall 2000 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY I agree. ===== Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 08:28:45 EST To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: KR2616TJ@aol.com Subject: Just for fun. Message-ID: --part1_bf.c3fa697.27d8e30d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The ultimate stealth airplane:-) http://madaket.netwizards.net/tmp/F-22_Stealth.jpg Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 KR Gathering host Richmond, KY mailto:kr2616tj@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/hangar/7085/ --part1_bf.c3fa697.27d8e30d_boundary-- ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************