From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 5 May 2001 00:29:14 -0000 Issue 217 Date: Friday, May 04, 2001 5:29 PM krnet Digest 5 May 2001 00:29:14 -0000 Issue 217 Topics (messages 5171 through 5200): Re: I've inherited a KR2S 5171 by: Keith McCarraher Re: assistance with fiberglass layup 5172 by: CS Special fasteners 5173 by: Brian J Bland KR2S for sale.... 5174 by: CS 5176 by: larry flesner 5185 by: jshays Project 4 sale 5175 by: Clay1Pilot.aol.com Advantages of a tapered wing? 5177 by: Oscar Zuniga 5179 by: HEATH, DANIEL R 5183 by: Mike Mims 5184 by: HEATH, DANIEL R 5192 by: Screwy Squirrel Questions 5178 by: Sam O. Walton Re: Reminder (please do not take offense) 5180 by: David Busby stability analysis 5181 by: Oscar Zuniga 5188 by: Mark Langford 5190 by: Steven Eberhart KR FOR SALE 5182 by: Schmidt, Curtis inherited a KR2S..a public apology 5186 by: CS Back again 5187 by: Robert Hamburger what happened 5189 by: SLemke1.aol.com Re: My letter to AOL in response to 5191 by: Laheze.aol.com assistance with fiberglass "dumb and dumber" 5193 by: w.g. kirkland antennas 5194 by: Tim Brown 5195 by: Mark Langford Wing tanks, aileron bellcrank, dragonfly canopy 5196 by: Peter Nauta 5198 by: HEATH, DANIEL R Re: Bondo 5197 by: Carson Cassidy 5199 by: HEATH, DANIEL R Epoxy - Fiberglass Working 5200 by: Peter Johnson Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 22:57:29 -0500 To: From: "Keith McCarraher" Subject: Fw: I've inherited a KR2S Message-ID: <007401c0d44e$5c4fdfd0$b65e4b94@dbqkmccarrb> ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C0D424.6E0BEB80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I'm new to this group, so bare with me if I haven't covered all of the = needed details.. My father-in-law was building a KR2S and recently died. My mother-in-law = has asked me to find out if there are any KR2 associations that might be = interested in purchasing the plane. The my fathter-in-law was a master = craftsman and all of the construction is first class. I can provide = photos of its current state as well as photos taken during the various = stages of construction. The plane is probably only a fraction completed = but has many man-hours in it. I will provide as much detail, photos, etc, but will wait to hear back = from anyone interested in the project first. I am also interested in = knowing if there is a good place to place the plane for sale? The plane is in Dyersville, Iowa. Incase anyone is nearby and wants to = stop by and take a look. Thank you, Keith McCarraher ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C0D424.6E0BEB80-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 21:11:53 -0700 (PDT) To: "w.g. kirkland" , krnet From: CS Subject: Re: KR> assistance with fiberglass layup Message-ID: <20010504041153.87873.qmail@web13907.mail.yahoo.com> Hey Bill, Funny you should bring up vacuum-bagging. If you're like me, you figured that to get a decent vacuum rig you're lookin' at $1000.00-$1200.00, right? Wrong. If you can get your hands on an old vacuum pump from a freezer (I'm thinkin' 20 bucks or so), you can build a vacuum chamber that will handle 80% or so of the parts that you need to fabricate. Um...it don't do wings. > Has anyone any suggestions (short of vacuum bagging) > on how to avoid this problem? If you think vacuum-bagging will cure your problems, give me a holler. I'll turn ya on to a few "low-buck" vacuum bagging techniques that I learned over the weekend, and can steer ya to some folks who actually know what they're talkin' about, certainly a welcome change of pace for many KRNetters. Chuck __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 00:40:06 -0500 To: "KRNet" From: "Brian J Bland" Subject: Special fasteners Message-ID: Since it's Friday I thought I would send this. Go to: http://dellepro.dellhost.com/usdelnet.bruiser/ Click on the link to see some fasteners that you really wish you had sometimes. Brian J Bland Claremore, OK mailto:bruiser@dellepro.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 22:48:13 -0700 (PDT) To: Keith McCarraher , krnet@mailinglists.org From: CS Subject: KR2S for sale.... Message-ID: <20010504054813.38300.qmail@web13902.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Keith... --- Keith McCarraher wrote: > Hello, > > I'm new to this group, so bare with me if I haven't > covered all of the needed details.. We're barin' wit ya, dude. No details needed. > My father-in-law was building a KR2S and recently > died. KRs will do that. My mother-in-law has asked me to find out if > there are any KR2 associations... Sure, there's a bunch of them. They all hate each other. >that might be >interested in purchasing the plane. You're dreamin. KR projects are pretty common and not many people care about the "master craftsman" concept, even though maybe they should. I'm maybe a buyer for your project, but not at anywhere near what you're thinking right now. Chuck __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 06:57:05 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: larry flesner Subject: Re: KR> KR2S for sale.... Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010504065705.00864a90@pop3.norton.antivirus> >To: CS From: larry flesner Subject: Re: KR> KR2S for sale.... In-Reply-To: <20010504054813.38300.qmail@web13902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <007401c0d44e$5c4fdfd0$b65e4b94@dbqkmccarrb> Chuck, Obviously your sensitivity training wore off. Not even an "I'm sorry about your loss", just "your project isn't worth much but ,hey, I might want to buy it". Hardly up to KR builder standards. Larry Flesner >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >At 10:48 PM 5/3/01 -0700, you wrote: >>Hi Keith... >> >> >>--- Keith McCarraher wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> I'm new to this group, so bare with me if I haven't >>> covered all of the needed details.. >> >>We're barin' wit ya, dude. No details needed. >> >>> My father-in-law was building a KR2S and recently >>> died. >> >>KRs will do that. >> >> My mother-in-law has asked me to find out if >>> there are any KR2 associations... >> >>Sure, there's a bunch of them. They all hate each >>other. >> >>>that might be >>>interested in purchasing the plane. >> >>You're dreamin. KR projects are pretty common and >>not many people care about the "master craftsman" >>concept, even though maybe they should. >> >>I'm maybe a buyer for your project, but not at >>anywhere near what you're thinking right now. >> >>Chuck >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>__________________________________________________ >>Do You Yahoo!? >>Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices >>http://auctions.yahoo.com/ >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org >> >> >>To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >>For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 May 01 08:50:33 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: jshays Subject: RE: KR> KR2S for sale.... I generally just hit the delete key, but this reply is ... Pretty (expletive deleted) rude. Regards, Jeff Hays. >===== Original Message From CS ===== >Hi Keith... > > >--- Keith McCarraher wrote: >> Hello, >> >> I'm new to this group, so bare with me if I haven't >> covered all of the needed details.. > >We're barin' wit ya, dude. No details needed. > >> My father-in-law was building a KR2S and recently >> died. > >KRs will do that. > > My mother-in-law has asked me to find out if >> there are any KR2 associations... > >Sure, there's a bunch of them. They all hate each >other. > >>that might be >>interested in purchasing the plane. > >You're dreamin. KR projects are pretty common and >not many people care about the "master craftsman" >concept, even though maybe they should. > >I'm maybe a buyer for your project, but not at >anywhere near what you're thinking right now. > >Chuck > > > > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices >http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 03:19:57 EDT To: Krnet@mailinglists.org From: Clay1Pilot@aol.com Subject: Project 4 sale Message-ID: <15.13b92ba7.2823b21d@aol.com> --part1_15.13b92ba7.2823b21d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a kr1 in Vegas about 70 percent complete. needs engine, gauges, and canopy completed will even let trailor go with plane asking $700 email or call if interested 702-499-6078 (Clay) --part1_15.13b92ba7.2823b21d_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 13:01:16 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Advantages of a tapered wing? Message-ID: Carter wrote: >Would some one give me a laymans reasoning for the chosen wing >design. What is the advantage of the tapered wing? There are several reasons for tapering the wing, but just so you'll know, there are others who agree with you on going "Hershey bar". Check out Mike Mims' website at http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/anchor/270 to see what a straight wing looks like. Mike has since sold the airplane, but has left the website up (thanks, Mike!)- there are lots of good things on the site, worth visiting. Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.geocities.com/taildrags/ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 09:06:36 -0400 To: "'Oscar Zuniga'" , krnet@mailinglists.org From: "HEATH, DANIEL R" Subject: RE: KR> Advantages of a tapered wing? Message-ID: You have lost me. It was the airfoil thing and now hershey bar. What are you guys talking about? I did have a thought on the RAF-48 and maybe why Ken used it. Maybe because it is not prone to trouble if it isn't built perfectly to spec and he wanted something that would not go nuts if one of us amateurs messed it up. Maybe.................. Daniel R. Heath DHeath@Scana.com (803)217-9984 -----Original Message----- From: Oscar Zuniga [mailto:taildrags@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 9:01 AM To: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: KR> Advantages of a tapered wing? Carter wrote: >Would some one give me a laymans reasoning for the chosen wing >design. What is the advantage of the tapered wing? There are several reasons for tapering the wing, but just so you'll know, there are others who agree with you on going "Hershey bar". Check out Mike Mims' website at http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/anchor/270 to see what a straight wing looks like. Mike has since sold the airplane, but has left the website up (thanks, Mike!)- there are lots of good things on the site, worth visiting. Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.geocities.com/taildrags/ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 06:30:58 -0700 (PDT) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Mike Mims Subject: RE: KR> Advantages of a tapered wing? Message-ID: <20010504133058.28287.qmail@web10804.mail.yahoo.com> <<>> He used it because the plans he used called for the RAF-48. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 09:36:05 -0400 To: "'Mike Mims'" , krnet@mailinglists.org From: "HEATH, DANIEL R" Subject: RE: KR> Advantages of a tapered wing? Message-ID: You mean that Ken Rand used plans to build the KR????????????? What plans were those? I thought that he modeled it after the Taylor Monoplane. Did it use the RAF 48? Don't know, just wondering. Daniel R. Heath DHeath@Scana.com (803)217-9984 -----Original Message----- From: Mike Mims [mailto:gti20vturbo@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 9:31 AM To: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: RE: KR> Advantages of a tapered wing? <<>> He used it because the plans he used called for the RAF-48. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 13:29:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Screwy Squirrel cc: kr Subject: Re: KR> Advantages of a tapered wing? Message-ID: From my copy of Aerodynamics, Aeronautics and Flight Mechanics(Second Edition) by Barnes W. McCormick: "From an aerodynami efficiency standpoint, the ellipic planform is nearly optimum. Recent NASA studies(van Dam, Vijgen, Holmes; April 1991, AIAA of Aircraft 28(4))have shown that even the ellipic planform may not be quite so optimum measured on the basis of lift-to-drag ratio because of the hgiher-order effects not considered in the classical analysis. Probably the most famous airplane to employ an elliptic planform was the Supermarine Apitfire flown by the Royal Air Force in Britain during World War II. It would probably have done as well with a linearly tapered wing since, as will be shown later, a tper ratio(tip chord to midchord) of appriximately 0.3 results in a predicted efficiency close to that of an elliptic planform." Basically, tapering the wing yeilds better lift-to-drag characteristics. On Thu, 3 May 2001, POND CARTER wrote: > Would some one give me a laymans reasoning for the chosen wing design. > What is the advantage of the tapered wing? > > Here is my thought on obtaining an acceptable wing load for above #1300 > widen the fuselage to 44" than add 6" a side to sub wings, narrow the > distance between spars by 1.5" to allow a split flap chord of 12" or > ideally a fowler flap if I can find the know how( it has to be on the > web somewhere!). > End result > ` > all dimensions in ft > wing span b ft 25 outer wing average chord 3.672157 > stub length ft 4.416 %g 64.672 > outer wing length 8.084 %H 35.328 > stub cord 4 chord average 3.787977375 > wing tip chord 2.183 > mean wing chord 3.787977375 > flap length 2.583 > flap chord 1 > wing area 87.5 > flap deflection 45 > > Flap span ratio 0.20664 > less than 0.75 Rfs > > Rfc flap cord ratio 0.263993129 > less than 0.25 > > Maximum wing loading 15.65662654 > maximum legal gross weight 1369.954822# > (with out high performance rating needed for pilot) > Thanks again guys > With out the KR net my dreams would be stay only dreams > Carter and Darren > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > +----------------------------------+---------------------------------------+ |John E. Holeman | OSU Computer Science| |754-3450 | OSU Atmospheric Science| +----------------------------------+---------------------------------------+ |holemanj@ucs.orst.edu |holemanj@cs.orst.edu | |www.orst.edu/~holemanj |jholeman@oce.orst.edu | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------------+ | Not all those who wander are lost. | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 07:46:48 -0500 To: From: "Sam O. Walton" Subject: Questions Message-ID: <001601c0d498$4a59f1e0$47d602cf@cst.net> ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C0D46E.5FC040E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings neter, I`m sure it is in the arcives some where but me and computers don`t get = along to well.( I can`t get them arcives to open) Anyway my question is what type of fiberglass is being recomended = instead of dynel cloth. Any suggestion on table size, I`m thinking 3ft. and my single car = garage will be a challenge before I get this project finished.=20 Last question any KR 1 owners in the southwest Oak. area? Thankyou=20 Sam@brantly.com =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C0D46E.5FC040E0-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 08:17:17 -0400 From: "David Busby" CC: KR-net Subject: Re: KR> Reminder (please do not take offense) Message-ID: <3AF29DCD.52575326@jefcoed.com> --------------D2C00CAB6336EDF23257A3D5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Get over it John. You can do that without a response. --------------D2C00CAB6336EDF23257A3D5-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 13:18:46 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: stability analysis Message-ID: Steve wrote: >When the recent discussion about stability came up we had two >world class aeronautical engineers putting in so much time that >you wouldn't believe it. I have seen the final reports and the >depth of their work was truly amazing. For more on the subject (stick-free stability; neutral point, etc.), look at last month's EAA Experimenter (I'm always at least a month behind in my reading). There is Part II of a multi-part series on analysis, and in this part is the description of how to determine the neutral point for your airplane at various CG locations, by experimental and analytical method. If you can wade through the algebra, it's worth it to get to the bottom line. Enterprising souls could set up a spreadsheet to calculate air density given temperature, etc., but for the few points that are needed to develop meaningful graphs it isn't that big a deal to sit down with a calculator and grind it out. Then a little work with a ruler, graph paper, and pencil can get you some very important information about your plane. Like how to keep it from biting you. I would be *very, very* interested in finding out just how a stock, built-to-plans KR-2 turns out, stability-wise, using actual flight test data. Not to rub anybody's face in anything, but to confirm all of the analysis that's been done. There is nothing like bringing in actual airspeeds, CGs, weights, stick forces, etc. and putting them on the graph to see if theory and practice agree... or if not, why not and where on the performance envelope the divergence occurs. Obviously, the benefit of the flight tests is to obtain points on the graph while flying in a stable mode, so that the graphs can be extrapolated to determine where the neutral point is, without actually flying it in neutral or negative stability modes... and to "non destructively" determine which loadings to avoid. 'Course I'm an engineer, and numbers are fun for engineers. Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.geocities.com/taildrags/ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 15:17:02 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Cc: Subject: Re: KR> stability analysis Message-ID: <005801c0d4d7$2ec651a0$561cf618@600athlon> Oscar wrote: > For more on the subject (stick-free stability; neutral point, etc.), look at > last month's EAA Experimenter (I'm always at least a month behind in my > reading). There is Part II of a multi-part series on analysis, and in this > part is the description of how to determine the neutral point for your > airplane at various CG locations, by experimental and analytical method... Yep, it would be nice to see a whole bunch of people on this list do the testing and determine their neutral points, from which the REAL CG range could be determined. As we all know, each KR is different, even when built completely by the plans. Troy Petteway volunteered to do the testing on his airplane, as did Jeff Duval, who has a stock KR except for a C-85 like Troy's. The main differences in the two planes are the airfoil and Troy's teeny elevator. Dean Selby has volunteered to do his too, which is a 2S with new airfoil and 3" added to each end of the horizontal stab. Anyway, Dr. Richard Mole cooked up a test plan that would do what Oscar's SA article apparently also details. I haven't seen the Experimenter article yet either, but Richard's test plan is a Word file that I've located at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/neutral_point.doc . I just left Dean's airport at SRB in TN. Troy flew me up, and Dana flew me back in the V-tail. Actually, I got to fly Troy's KR the whole way up, except for the landing, and I must say it was very sweet. His plane will now immediately return to level flight after nudging the stick either up or down. Before his rebuild (wing, tail, engine tranplant) any perturbation of the stick would amplify until it fell out of the sky. His CG location is further forward than it was before due to the heavy engine (which explains a lot), with the only other differences being wing and tail. Jeff Duval's was a very stable stock KR as well, prior to the new engine (VW to Continental). He's finishing up the new cowling and will be flying again soon. It would be nice to quantify what's going on here so we can make intelligent CG range location recommendations for future builders. A spreadsheet with a bunch of different KR2 configurations with different weights and distributions and their resulting neutral points would be an invalable resource. Let's do some testing and get a handle on this. Dean Selby is up to 12 hours with his KR2S. His is very nice, and has some good ideas. His fuel burn is under 3 gallons/hour on a 1910cc VW. I'll post some pictures later, maybe today. Here's one to get you in the mood though, at ( http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/01050422.jpg ). Dana's V-tail was the camera plane. I guess I owe y'all some SNF pictures too. Maybe I'll get lucky and break another bone so I can catch up on my web page duties... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 15:24:44 -0500 (CDT) To: From: Steven Eberhart Subject: Re: KR> stability analysis Message-ID: Would be nice if we could get this organized so that all that attended the Gathering with their plane would be able to run the tests while there. Just a thought. Steve Eberhart On Fri, 4 May 2001, Mark Langford wrote: > Oscar wrote: > > > For more on the subject (stick-free stability; neutral point, etc.), look > at > > last month's EAA Experimenter (I'm always at least a month behind in my > > reading). There is Part II of a multi-part series on analysis, and in > this > > part is the description of how to determine the neutral point for your > > airplane at various CG locations, by experimental and analytical method... > > Yep, it would be nice to see a whole bunch of people on this list do the > testing and determine their neutral points, from which the REAL CG range > could be determined. As we all know, each KR is different, even when built > completely by the plans. Troy Petteway volunteered to do the testing on his > airplane, as did Jeff Duval, who has a stock KR except for a C-85 like > Troy's. The main differences in the two planes are the airfoil and Troy's > teeny elevator. Dean Selby has volunteered to do his too, which is a 2S > with new airfoil and 3" added to each end of the horizontal stab. Anyway, > Dr. Richard Mole cooked up a test plan that would do what Oscar's SA article > apparently also details. I haven't seen the Experimenter article yet > either, but Richard's test plan is a Word file that I've located at > http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/neutral_point.doc . > > I just left Dean's airport at SRB in TN. Troy flew me up, and Dana flew me > back in the V-tail. Actually, I got to fly Troy's KR the whole way up, > except for the landing, and I must say it was very sweet. His plane will > now immediately return to level flight after nudging the stick either up or > down. Before his rebuild (wing, tail, engine tranplant) any perturbation of > the stick would amplify until it fell out of the sky. His CG location is > further forward than it was before due to the heavy engine (which explains a > lot), with the only other differences being wing and tail. Jeff Duval's > was a very stable stock KR as well, prior to the new engine (VW to > Continental). He's finishing up the new cowling and will be flying again > soon. > > It would be nice to quantify what's going on here so we can make intelligent > CG range location recommendations for future builders. A spreadsheet with a > bunch of different KR2 configurations with different weights and > distributions and their resulting neutral points would be an invalable > resource. Let's do some testing and get a handle on this. > > Dean Selby is up to 12 hours with his KR2S. His is very nice, and has some > good ideas. His fuel burn is under 3 gallons/hour on a 1910cc VW. I'll > post some pictures later, maybe today. Here's one to get you in the mood > though, at ( http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/01050422.jpg ). Dana's > V-tail was the camera plane. I guess I owe y'all some SNF pictures too. > Maybe I'll get lucky and break another bone so I can catch up on my web page > duties... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > Steve Eberhart mailto:newtech@newtech.com One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are easier to get. --plagiarized from an unknown author ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 2001 08:23:00 -0700 To: "krnet@mailinglists.org" From: "Schmidt, Curtis" Subject: KR FOR SALE Message-ID: <00083C1E@kaydon.com> Hey guys: I am located in central Kansas and you can call during the day at (620) 792= -4368 ext.427 or evenings at (620) 285-7269. They can also e-mail me (prefe= rred) at cschmidt@kaydon.com To see pictures go to http://kr2s.bouyea.net/k= rnet and click on the classified section. If you are in the Larned Kansas a= rea, please feel free to stop and have a look. FOR SALE Rand Robinson KR-2 (standard) (Fuselage)All wood work complete. Horizontal and vertical stabs built, glassed and installed. Rear turtle deck on and glassed. Canopy partially complete. Sitting on custom built gear with mechanical brakes. (some pictures show retracts, they are not in the airplane anymore but do g= o with the project) Custom heavy-duty dual sticks. Fiberglass seats Center spars installed Aileron bell cranks built and installed. All control cables installed. (Wing) Spars complete with wing attach fittings in place. Center section ribs cut out and ready to install No foam work done on the wings. (Engine) One complete stock VW type-4 2 liter. One partial VW type-4 with a good 78 mm stroke crank. 2 sets of used heads All engine parts not yet converted for aircraft use. Everything must go together, I will not part it out. Price??? I will consider all offers! Curtis Schmidt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:37:08 -0700 (PDT) To: Keith McCarraher , krnet@mailinglists.org From: CS Subject: inherited a KR2S..a public apology Message-ID: <20010504153708.87888.qmail@web13903.mail.yahoo.com> Hey Keith, In my earlier (perhaps misguided) reply, I was pokin' fun more at the KR world than I was tryin' to give you a hard time. In retrospect, may be this wasn't the best time to crank up my warped sense of humor. If you'll write to me offline, I'll try to give you an idea what the 2S might be worth if you're willing to wait for your price; also what I'd be willing to give for it right now if you want to get rid of it. My apologies, and my sympathy to your and your family. Chuck --- Keith McCarraher wrote: > Hello, > > I'm new to this group, so bare with me if I haven't > covered all of the needed details.. > > My father-in-law was building a KR2S and recently > died. My mother-in-law has asked me to find out if > there are any KR2 associations that might be > interested in purchasing the plane. The my > fathter-in-law was a master craftsman and all of the > construction is first class. I can provide photos of > its current state as well as photos taken during the > various stages of construction. The plane is > probably only a fraction completed but has many > man-hours in it. > > I will provide as much detail, photos, etc, but will > wait to hear back from anyone interested in the > project first. I am also interested in knowing if > there is a good place to place the plane for sale? > > The plane is in Dyersville, Iowa. Incase anyone is > nearby and wants to stop by and take a look. > > Thank you, > > Keith McCarraher > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 12:03:31 -0700 To: From: "Robert Hamburger" Subject: Back again Message-ID: Hey all, Since AOL graciously sent me a huge amount of things to try so that I can receive posts from KRnet, I said the heck with that and got a new email address just to receive KR posts. So, I'm back online with you all. I'm Robert Hamburger, I'm currently rebuilding a FP101. As soon as I finish that project then I'll start a KR-1 / B. I'm moving and will create a new building area. I'm thinking about 12'x30' structure but, may go with 16'x32' instead. Any suggestions on size of work area? I have missed reading what you all write about KR's and other tid bits. So, I'm glad to be back and will now shut up and listen/read all your advice. Thank You One and All, Robert Hamburger Tucson, AZ FP101 rebuilder KR1-B future builder ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 16:16:28 EDT To: Krnet@mailinglists.org From: SLemke1@aol.com Subject: what happened Message-ID: <8b.61f2200.2824681c@aol.com> --part1_8b.61f2200.2824681c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've only recieved 2 e-mails in the past 2 weeks. Is something wrong with AOL or what? Please e-mail me directly with the fix Steve Lemke slemke1@aol.com --part1_8b.61f2200.2824681c_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 16:28:08 EDT To: langford@hiwaay.net, krnet@mailinglists.org From: Laheze@aol.com Subject: Re: My letter to AOL in response to Message-ID: Mark, I was sitting big fat, dumb, and happy until you pointed it out last week. I went to escribe as you suggested and sure enough, I was dumb for trusting AOL. I am looking now and trying to decide who I am going to change to. I hate AOL and have since the beginning but just got stuck in a rut. I needed a good tow to get me moving on to greener pastures. I just need to know what fence to cross. Larry Howell laheze@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 17:14:11 -0400 To: "krnet" From: "w.g. kirkland" Subject: assistance with fiberglass "dumb and dumber" Message-ID: <00fc01c0d4df$2cff53a0$a0905bd1@kirkland> ------=_NextPart_000_00F9_01C0D4BD.A346AF80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think I found the problem. I have several rolls of fiberglass parked = in various spots in the basement. I haven't done any fiberglass work for = some months and the rolls are unmarked. I can't believe I just layed up my seat pan with four layers of oh no! = "peel ply " W.G.(Bill) KIRKLAND kirkland@vianet.on.ca ------=_NextPart_000_00F9_01C0D4BD.A346AF80-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 14:28:54 -0700 (PDT) To: Group KR NET From: Tim Brown Subject: antennas Message-ID: <20010504212854.12478.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com> Dear Net: Some one (or more) of you all posted some really good and cheap ideas for antennas a few months ago. I printed them out but now can't find them. Could I impose upon you to repost the info please? I am about a month or so away from glassing my vert stab and would like to incorporate anything and everything that I can or should before I get to far. Thanks much. Tim __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 17:03:22 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> antennas Message-ID: <009401c0d4e6$0aff8b60$561cf618@600athlon> Tim Brown wrote: > I am about a month or so away from glassing my vert > stab and would like to incorporate anything and > everything that I can or should before I get to far. Try http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kpanel.html#antenna . That ought to do ya, but it might take a while to load since there are a bunch of pictures above it. Put yours inside, under the foam, glued directly to the forward v/s spar as high as you can get it. You can even bend the tips back or forward several inches if needed to make it fit. Mine is on the outside because I completely forgot to do it, only one month after posting to KRNet for builders not to forget, and telling them how to do it. Dumb, and dumber. Mine would work better if it were wrapped around the leading edge, but I didn't want to resand that beautiful surface again. RST engineering sells a little $20 kit with enough tape and toroids to do about 3 antenna, or you can scrounge the tape and toroids and do it for considerably less, if you want to. But I figured I owed him for saving me so much time, and getting a great antenna in the bargain. See http://www.rst-engr.com/ . Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 00:12:55 +0200 To: "Krnet@Mailinglists. Org" From: "Peter Nauta" Subject: Wing tanks, aileron bellcrank, dragonfly canopy Message-ID: Hi, 1. I'll be starting a KR2-S some time soon. I plan on using a BMW engine, which consumes 10-13 liter per hour. So, I'd like to stick to two tanks in the center section, outboard of the fuselage. Because of this, I would like to keep the space between the two spars clean. Can I change the aileron cables so the cables run behind the aft spar? 2. Any idea where to get a Dragonfly canopy? Groeten, Peter Nauta p.nauta@wanadoo.nl (until june 2001) pnauta@xs4all.nl (from june 2001 onwards) +31(0)6 51411018 Fax: +31(0)84 8663552 <- AREA CODE CHANGED! Fax and voicemail: +1(413)235-8017 http://www.fs2000.nl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 19:14:47 -0400 To: "'Peter Nauta'" , "Krnet@Mailinglists. Org" From: "HEATH, DANIEL R" Subject: RE: KR> Wing tanks, aileron bellcrank, dragonfly canopy Message-ID: Peter, This sounds like about the same as 2180, or maybe less. Wing tanks are a pain. You should avoid them if possible. Trust me,, your behind will wear out before you run out. Daniel R. Heath DHeath@Scana.com (803)217-9984 -----Original Message----- From: Peter Nauta [mailto:p.nauta@wanadoo.nl] Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 6:13 PM To: Krnet@Mailinglists. Org Subject: KR> Wing tanks, aileron bellcrank, dragonfly canopy Hi, 1. I'll be starting a KR2-S some time soon. I plan on using a BMW engine, which consumes 10-13 liter per hour. So, I'd like to stick to two tanks in the center section, outboard of the fuselage. Because of this, I would like to keep the space between the two spars clean. Can I change the aileron cables so the cables run behind the aft spar? 2. Any idea where to get a Dragonfly canopy? Groeten, Peter Nauta p.nauta@wanadoo.nl (until june 2001) pnauta@xs4all.nl (from june 2001 onwards) +31(0)6 51411018 Fax: +31(0)84 8663552 <- AREA CODE CHANGED! Fax and voicemail: +1(413)235-8017 http://www.fs2000.nl --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 16:16:15 -0600 To: "krnet@mailinglists.org" From: Carson Cassidy Subject: Re: KR> RE: Bondo Message-ID: <3AF32A2F.4013E036@home.com> I've just come in at the tail end of this, so maybe I missed something. Are you using the light bondo mix on you aircraft? Isn't there a something about putting a vinylester based product over epoxy? I've been slaving away with epoxy and lots and lots of micro. Having used bondo in the past I think it would be easier to sand. Carson Cassidy Calgary, Alberta "HEATH, DANIEL R" wrote: > > If you do not get the saran wrap on there perfectly, then you will end up > with many ridges that have to be smoothed over. I have always used "Finish > Cloth" and have never had a problem with it. I think you just need to get > it really wet and then really dry. Using your brush to stipple the resin to > the top is also a good idea. > > Daniel R. Heath > DHeath@Scana.com > (803)217-9984 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Eason [mailto:ron@jrl-engineering.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 10:47 PM > To: HEATH, DANIEL R; 'Mark Langford'; krnet@mailinglists.org > Subject: Re:Bondo > > It's the moisture in the air inhibiting the surface cure. Try covering the > surface with suran wrap. > > Ron > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "HEATH, DANIEL R" > To: "'Mark Langford'" ; > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 7:06 AM > Subject: RE: KR> test MSG - disregard > > > OK, how is this? Ever tried thinning out Bondo with the extender and > adding > > a lot of micro to it? Very light, hard, and smooth. Bondo is a funny > > thing. When it sets up, the surface is sticky and almost rubbery. Shave > it > > with a surform and it sands very easily. I wonder why it acts like that. > > > > Daniel R. Heath > > DHeath@Scana.com > > (803)217-9984 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Langford [mailto:langford@hiwaay.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 10:58 PM > > To: krnet@mailinglists.org > > Subject: Re: KR> test msg - disregard > > > > > > John Bryhan wrote: > > > > > Just a test - I haven't got a single email all day long > > > > I think a cease-fire has broken out. We've all finally learned what > > everybody's going to say to whatever we post, so we just save everybody > the > > trouble of reloading. Any new questions are certainly welcome, however. > > When it's this slow, even the dumb ones are entertaining! Anybody using > > Rustoleum? I'll bet I'll live long enough to regret that comment. > > > > If it makes you feel any better, our 120 AOL subscribers are waging war on > > AOL for stealing their KRNet email for months. > > > > Everybody got their hotel reservation for the Gathering in September? If > > not, see the address below, about half way down for details. I'd like to > > take air-to-air pictures of all the KRs attending this year, if possible. > > Maybe I can talk Marty into flying the camera plane, since we've already > got > > one of his... > > > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama > > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > > see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 19:17:47 -0400 To: "'Carson Cassidy'" , krnet@mailinglists.org From: "HEATH, DANIEL R" Subject: RE: KR> RE: Bondo Message-ID: If you are talking about my Bondo/Micro recipe, yes it is easy to sand. Put it on, use the surform on it to break the surface, and it is easy to sand. It also is very light. I mixed the Bondo with the Bondo extender to a loose slurry and then thickened it back up with lots of micro. Daniel R. Heath DHeath@Scana.com (803)217-9984 -----Original Message----- From: Carson Cassidy [mailto:carson.c@home.com] Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 6:16 PM To: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> RE: Bondo I've just come in at the tail end of this, so maybe I missed something. Are you using the light bondo mix on you aircraft? Isn't there a something about putting a vinylester based product over epoxy? I've been slaving away with epoxy and lots and lots of micro. Having used bondo in the past I think it would be easier to sand. Carson Cassidy Calgary, Alberta "HEATH, DANIEL R" wrote: > > If you do not get the saran wrap on there perfectly, then you will end up > with many ridges that have to be smoothed over. I have always used "Finish > Cloth" and have never had a problem with it. I think you just need to get > it really wet and then really dry. Using your brush to stipple the resin to > the top is also a good idea. > > Daniel R. Heath > DHeath@Scana.com > (803)217-9984 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Eason [mailto:ron@jrl-engineering.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 10:47 PM > To: HEATH, DANIEL R; 'Mark Langford'; krnet@mailinglists.org > Subject: Re:Bondo > > It's the moisture in the air inhibiting the surface cure. Try covering the > surface with suran wrap. > > Ron > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "HEATH, DANIEL R" > To: "'Mark Langford'" ; > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 7:06 AM > Subject: RE: KR> test MSG - disregard > > > OK, how is this? Ever tried thinning out Bondo with the extender and > adding > > a lot of micro to it? Very light, hard, and smooth. Bondo is a funny > > thing. When it sets up, the surface is sticky and almost rubbery. Shave > it > > with a surform and it sands very easily. I wonder why it acts like that. > > > > Daniel R. Heath > > DHeath@Scana.com > > (803)217-9984 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Langford [mailto:langford@hiwaay.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 10:58 PM > > To: krnet@mailinglists.org > > Subject: Re: KR> test msg - disregard > > > > > > John Bryhan wrote: > > > > > Just a test - I haven't got a single email all day long > > > > I think a cease-fire has broken out. We've all finally learned what > > everybody's going to say to whatever we post, so we just save everybody > the > > trouble of reloading. Any new questions are certainly welcome, however. > > When it's this slow, even the dumb ones are entertaining! Anybody using > > Rustoleum? I'll bet I'll live long enough to regret that comment. > > > > If it makes you feel any better, our 120 AOL subscribers are waging war on > > AOL for stealing their KRNet email for months. > > > > Everybody got their hotel reservation for the Gathering in September? If > > not, see the address below, about half way down for details. I'd like to > > take air-to-air pictures of all the KRs attending this year, if possible. > > Maybe I can talk Marty into flying the camera plane, since we've already > got > > one of his... > > > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama > > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > > see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 19:24:49 -0700 To: From: "Peter Johnson" Subject: Epoxy - Fiberglass Working Message-ID: <00d001c0d50a$c28d4000$54a5e2d1@peter> ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C0D4CF.E2E12AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, so Bill discovered he used peel ply to make his seats, no big = problem, as long as the material stays together. Those of you with = marine experience probably know that sometimes good quality linen is = used with epoxy on layups because linen has much better impact = resistance than glass cloth weight for weight. "Anything can be done = with anything, provided you design for it." Here's some info on epoxy/cloth layups that I hope may be of help to = others. First, epoxy does not give off a gas while curing. If a gas is being = given off it's because the substrate is reacting with the epoxy, this is = NOT GOOD and any bubbling that may occur in the cloth cannot just be = stippled out. The root problem must be addressed. Fortunatly epoxy = does not react with too many materials and the problem of substrates = reacting negatively are slim. For what it's worth, epoxy will slowly = desolve hot melt glue and some single component adhesives. I mention = this because I know some of you are using these adhesives to hold your = foam in place on the structure. Not a big deal because it is the epoxy = that holds everything together after it is applied and has curied. One = situation that may cause grief is if you have a piece of foam that is = under stress after fitting it, you've got just a bit of adhesive holding = it in place, and the adhesive is close to the surface. If the epoxy = were to desolve this bit of adhesive the foam may move on you. Just = food for thought... Bubbling IN epoxy can occur due to over mixing. Air becomes entrained = in the epoxy during mixing, and due to natural heating of the epoxy = during curing, these small air entrainments can expand. The cure for = bubbling caused by this is simple; using a hair dryer, CAREFULLY!!! = just WARM the epoxy as soon as possible after completing the layup. Do = not warm it to the point that it begins to flow, this is too warm, = instead, if you watch closely, you will see the entrained air expand and = then pop up at the surface of the epoxy. The best way to prevent this = air entrainment is to mix your epoxy slowly, in a circular pattern, in a = large, round, shallow bowl using a plastic spatula. (I use microwave = safe paper bowls, no corners, just the right size to complete a good = size layup, cheap, and reusable too! Use a plastic spatula because = rubber will absorb epoxy and the spatula will be shot after one use. = Plastic spats are cheaper and reusable.) Another cause of bubbling in cloth layups occurs because the cloth has = not been layed down flat, smooth and tight on the work surface. If you = have anykind of 'looseness' of the cloth while it is laying dry on the = wing or fuse or whatever, this 'loose' cloth will come together as your = are applying epoxy and, just because there is no room for it to go = anywhere on the surface, it will rise up and cause a 'bubble'. This is = not good of course because the cloth is high, unstable, and unable to = carry any loads without buckling, and it is impossible to work the = surface to produce a finish without cutting through the cloth and this = is of course completely unacceptable! A couple of ways to prevent this = type of 'bubbling' is to ensure you never fold your cloth. If your = cloth is folded, lay it out on a flat surface and using clean hands = smooth it flat before laying it on the work. Once the cloth is layed on = the work area smooth it out flat, working from the center of the cloth = to outer edges. Another thing to do to prevent this 'bubbling' is to = always complete your squeeging of the epoxy moving the squeege in a = direction from the center of the layup area to the outer edges of the = layup, this way you are always pulling the cloth tight. =20 With regards to using Saran Wrap to overlay a layup, it works great = except for one thing, don't use Saran Wrap. As one fellow here pointed = out, light material like Saran Wrap will fold, wrinkle, get krinkly, and = generally be annoying to work with. Instead, use heavy poly or vapour = barrier as an overlay (off a roll, not unfolded from a precut package), = and get someone to help you hold the plastic up tight and lay it down on = the work. This technigue is reffered to as 'vaccumless bagging' and was = described by another KR Net member early last year. If done properly = the method produces an amazing surface with no pinholes! Try it on a = practise area if you are curious. Hope this info is of assistance to someone. If there is anything I can = do to help anyone with this type of work, please drop me a note, I will = endeavour to reply as soon as possible. ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C0D4CF.E2E12AA0-- ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************