From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 10 May 2001 03:28:24 -0000 Issue 221 Date: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 8:28 PM krnet Digest 10 May 2001 03:28:24 -0000 Issue 221 Topics (messages 5275 through 5304): Re: Lightening strike protection? 5275 by: gleone Re: WAF bolts 5276 by: Mark Langford 5278 by: Livingstone, Danny (DJ) 5295 by: Donald Reid Re: Re Fiberglassing 5277 by: Mark Langford 5284 by: Laheze.aol.com 5288 by: Mark Langford 5289 by: flykr2s.execpc.com 5290 by: Mark Langford 5291 by: flykr2s.execpc.com 5293 by: larry flesner 5302 by: Jim V. Wickert Question 5279 by: Kr2dream.aol.com 5280 by: Garland, Norm F 5281 by: Schmidt, Curtis 5283 by: Steven Eberhart Making Bubble Canopies 5282 by: Frank Ross Re fiberglassing correction 5285 by: Laheze.aol.com Type 4 crank 5286 by: Schmidt, Curtis Subject: RE: KR> Re Fiberglassing 5287 by: Bill McCraw Paint 5292 by: robert Re:KR>Fiberglassing 5294 by: larry flesner KR2-"For Sale" 5296 by: Flyer2mc.aol.com Elevator gap seals 5297 by: Kenneth L Wiltrout 5298 by: Mark Langford Re: fiberglass and epoxy 5299 by: Ross R. Youngblood Re: N6399U 5300 by: Ross R. Youngblood ACS Darn! 5301 by: Ross R. Youngblood Re: Epoxy - Fiberglass Working (fwd) 5303 by: Steven Eberhart Re: Reminder (please do not take offense) 5304 by: DennisMingear.netscape.net Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 06:55:46 -0600 To: "Robert X. Cringely" From: gleone CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Lightening strike protection? Message-ID: <3AF93E52.11B61016@tritel.net> --------------7A8C501C1ADE425BD1ED3FC3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With regards to lightening strikes: In my flying career with the Air Force's Strategic Air Command and B-52's, one thing comes to mind concerning flying into thunderstorms. Air Force Reg. 60-1 says to "avoid all thunderstorms by 20 nautical miles" and SAC Sup. to 60-1 says, to "avoid all thunderstorms by 20 nautical miles unless flying during the EWO (Emergency War Order) in which all thunderstorms will be avoided by 10 nautical miles." There is a reason for that: it's called a Cumulus Granite. Now, before all the flaming starts, the only reason I mention AF Reg 60-1 is to make a point. Why would anyone even consider flying near a thunderstorm much less in something as light as a KR? With nearly 10,000 total flight hours ranging from B-52's to TR-2's and a whole bunch of planes in-between, I would suggest keep safety in mind and simply stay away from Gods natural Tesla coils and don't worry about getting hit by lightening. "Robert X. Cringely" wrote: > You have to electrically bond together all the conductive parts of > your airframe then give that common bond an exit path from the > structure. In an aluminum aircraft, the aluminum provides the bond. > In a wood or composite aircraft you have to wire all the parts > together then to static wicks on the trailing edge of most surfaces. > For further protection you can put a conductive mesh over the wood > and within the composite. Alternately, as someone else suggested, > you can use carbon fiber but you have to make sure the conductive > carbon is, in fact, conductive, since epoxy is an insulator. > > So that's how you do it. Now let me express an opinion. In 3400 > hours of flying composite aircraft (2300 hours of Glasair time and > 1100 hours in KRs all over the last 24 years) I have had one > lightning strike that caused minimal damage. The type of flying most > KR pilots do will never, ever require you to worry about lightning. > In fact, the only practical benefit I can see to doing this is just > to avoid a static discharge problem during refueling, but that would > only require bonding the fuel fillers and not the whole plane. > > All the best, > > Bob > > >Serious, intelligent answers only please! > >Of course I know avoidance is the best prevention. > > > >What is nessecary to provide a wood/fiberglass a/c with static discharge > >capability. Or Could some one explain how Commercial small a/c deal with > >this potential problems. > > > >Carter and Darren > >KR2S building > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > > > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org --------------7A8C501C1ADE425BD1ED3FC3-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 08:02:05 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> WAF bolts Message-ID: <001d01c0d888$3feecb60$5e0ca58c@tbe.com> > Does anyone know of any tests that have ever been performed on these AN6 > bolts in shear, that support their NOT failing under the stress loads that > may occur in this application? Of course they have. That's what AN means, is that they must meet the specs for the AN6 specification. I don't have it in front of me, but you can rest assured there are minimums for tensile and shear strength, and presumably the "designers" of the KR, Monoplane, or wherever this originally came from did the calculations. As far as testing in this application, there are over a thousand KRs flying that are done this way, since that's what the plans call for, and the way mine are done. A better way (but slightly heavier and slightly more trouble) is one long bolt through both holes with a 4130 spacer tube tightly spanning the gap between wing attach fittings. Alignment between the two WAFs must be perfect though, for the bolt to go through both holes. This eases the single shear situation that tries to twist the bolt. I think this is the way Don Reid is doing his. This might be more difficult to execute on aft spar WAFs, considering the 3 degree angle... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 15:11:00 +0200 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Livingstone, Danny (DJ)" Subject: RE: KR> WAF bolts Message-ID: Just to add to what mark wrote. If you have made WAF with 4 main bolts per spar leave it as is because you will have to ream the holes to fit the "straight though" application. That may lead to a less than round hole which may be ok when the KR has not seen flight loading but this may change and become oval when loading in flight. This will have all sorts of effects on the peformance of the wing. How do I know this? I have been there, done that! Luckly I did not find this out in the air, just a few year of garage time did the trick. Danny > Alignment between the two WAFs must be perfect though, for the bolt to go > through both holes. This eases the single shear situation that tries to > twist the bolt. I think this is the way Don Reid is doing his. This > might > be more difficult to execute on aft spar WAFs, considering the 3 degree > angle... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify the sender. All opinions expressed are the sender's own and not necessarily that of the employer. ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 20:44:33 -0400 To: From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR> WAF bolts Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010509202947.00a006e0@pop.erols.com> --=====================_4842853==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > A better way (but slightly heavier and >slightly more trouble) is one long bolt through both holes with a 4130 >spacer tube tightly spanning the gap between wing attach fittings. >Alignment between the two WAFs must be perfect though, for the bolt to go >through both holes. This eases the single shear situation that tries to >twist the bolt. I think this is the way Don Reid is doing his. This might >be more difficult to execute on aft spar WAFs, considering the 3 degree >angle... Yes, this is the way that I am doing the wing attachment fittings. I drilled and then reamed the spar fittings with a drill press, all in one setup. The drilling (and reaming) goes very quickly, it is the setup that took all the time. Total time for setup, drilling, and reaming ALL fitting holes was over ten hours, but they are very accurate. From a structural standpoint, this is the best way. The part count (nuts, bolts, washers, etc) is less, weight is approximately equal (a few ounces more), and my access holes in the wing surface are limited. On each side of the plane, I have one small hole underneath the front and rear spar attachments (1.5 inch by 3 inch each), an inspection hole for the aileron bellcrank that I can get my arm in, and another small hole that is hidden behind the leading edge of the flaps. There are NO breaks, holes, or gaps on the top surface. The compression pieces are cut to length with a lathe and fit very accurately. Wing installation does take a bit longer, about one hour each side, but how often will you need to do that? I have a set of bolts made up with tapered ends. They go in from one direction to get everything lined up, then the real bolts go in from the other direction and push the tapered ones out. Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com Bumpass, Va Visit my web sites at: KR2XL construction: http://users.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Aviation Surplus: http://users.erols.com/donreid/Airparts.htm EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org Ultralights: http://usua250.org --=====================_4842853==_.ALT-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 08:09:49 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Re Fiberglassing Message-ID: <002301c0d889$54c57600$5e0ca58c@tbe.com> > Bottom line being you cannot get out of doing all that diagonal cutting by > trying to use UNI cloth. And, it would be downright UNSAFE to use UNI where > BID is called for. Well, the wings is the only place you could really use UNI on a KR, and then only if you used two layers, each at 45 degrees to the spar, and 90 degrees to each other. But since the wings only call for one layer of BID you'd be adding extra weight for nothing, and you'd have to buy twice as much, so cutting BID at 45 degrees starts looking more attractive... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:30:44 EDT To: DHEATH@scana.com, krnet@mailinglists.org From: Laheze@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> Re Fiberglassing Message-ID: <33.14a7d6ba.282abca4@aol.com> The unidirectional is stronger than the bid and would certainly be more efficient on your wings than the bid. It is about 20% stronger than the bid because it is not woven. The little kinks in the fiberglass strands that form from the weaving process in bidirectional (bid) weaken it. Fiberglass is at its strongest in straight lines, kinks weaken it. When you lay the unidirectional at 45 degree angle to leading edge of your wing for example, you just butt up the next width of uni with the previous width without overlapping. You will have to put two layers on your wings though like this at opposite angles. It is not that big of deal though. All the varieze, longeze, cozy, defiant, velocity airplanes wings and fuselages are built with unidirectional cloth laid up like this. Larry Howell laheze@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 12:07:36 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Re Fiberglassing Message-ID: <006501c0d8aa$8bd47350$561cf618@600athlon> > The unidirectional is stronger than the bid and would certainly be more > efficient on your wings than the bid. I think you missed my point. If the vast majority of the wing has only one layer of 5.85 ounce BID on it, and that is enough to maintain structural integrity (at least, that's what the plans say), then TWO layers of ANYTHING, whether stronger or not, is not going to help matters, just weigh things down more, and be more trouble to apply. Is it "more efficient" if it's not necessary at all? I guess that's a matter of opinion. Of course somebody's liable to point out that I made my wing skins of one layer of carbon fiber, but that's becuase I have large flaps whose forces I'd like to transfer away from the aft spar somewhat, I hate it when my top skin bubbles when flying, and I can afford the luxury. But that's not to say that everybody needs to skin their wings with carbon fiber. Speaking of luxury, get this. My wife tells me the other night that she hopes that I "put a really killer paint job on the thing, because that's what really MAKES it." What a woman! But I think for me what's gonna "make it" is 140 hp. I'm comin' to join ya, Marty... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 12:12:17 -0500 (CDT) To: "Mark Langford" From: flykr2s@execpc.com Cc: Subject: Re: KR> Re Fiberglassing Message-Id: <200105091712.MAA65858@nm0.nwbl.wi.voyager.net> The question is when? MJ I'm comin' to join ya, Marty... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 12:20:23 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Re Fiberglassing Message-ID: <008401c0d8ac$5547b070$561cf618@600athlon> > The question is when? > MJ Well, I took the afternoon off to work on the cowling, and plan to do a lot more of that now that "composite weather" is here, and I have 7 weeks of vacation saved up. Are you the pot calling the kettle black? What'd you skin your wings with? Did you ever get that Rustoleum to stick? Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:43:22 -0500 (CDT) To: "Mark Langford" From: flykr2s@execpc.com Cc: Subject: Re: KR> Re Fiberglassing Message-Id: <200105091843.NAA78742@nm0.nwbl.wi.voyager.net> > > The question is when? > > MJ > > Well, I took the afternoon off to work on the cowling, and plan to do a lot > more of that now that "composite weather" is here, and I have 7 weeks of > vacation saved up. > > Are you the pot calling the kettle black? Well, now that you mentioned it...look out Marty and Mark L, I too am coming to join you...the question is when? What'd you skin your wings with? I said to heck with the glassing thing and went with 3/32 plywood...sur saves a lot of time. > Did you ever get that Rustoleum to stick? Na, it would not work well on the plywood so I decided to use Glidden's best house paint. This ought to stir up some comments. Mark Jones > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 18:14:02 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: larry flesner Subject: Re Fiberglassing Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010509181402.007e87e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> >The unidirectional is stronger than the bid and would certainly be more >efficient on your wings than the bid. >>Larry Howell laheze@aol.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Larry, It seems like using BID with half the amount of glass and resin and still having "sufficent" strength would be the more efficient. Even a 50 percent "waste" factor on the BID would have you using less resin and give you less weight. Just my humble opinion. :) Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 22:36:37 -0400 To: larry flesner From: "Jim V. Wickert" Cc: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: KR> Re Fiberglassing Message-ID: <200105092236_MC2-D071-3920@compuserve.com> Another 2Cents worth. = =46rom one of the builders of composite foam core manufacturers the construction technology they use for the fuse: Always vacuum and slurry foam first on all surfaces. Fuse Exterior.... Lay one layer of Uni lengt= h wise of the fuse followed by one Bid 45degrees to the length of the fuse.= = Fuse Interior....From station 54" forward the fuse gets one layer of Uni= with fibers going fore and aft. The entire fuse gets one layer Bid with fibers at 45 degrees to the direction of the fuse. = =46rom structural testing this gave the most strength per unit of weight = it also accunts for twist of the fuse and loading for a tail drager. A 44"= wide fuse with a fairly comfortable amount of room and a fuse length of 170" firewall to tail end, weight 26lbs. no bulkheads installed 180 HP plus airframe. = The Foam Core is slurried prior to appliaction of the skin to both seal a= nd provide a base for adhesion. For the wings: Apply 2 Bid layer across the top of the spar and extend 6= " onto the new foam. Fill the low area over the bid with foam and a very d= ry micro slurry if deep. Or just micro if filling a small valley. Light sand, vacuum and slurry the rest of the foam. Apply 2 Uni layers at 45 degrees orientation across the full wing surface upper or lower, allow th= e Uni to wrap around the leading edge and contact the first few inches of t= he opsite side. We are all looking for strength and low weight . It's the combination of= Uni, Bid and Epoxy that makes it happen. = Take care happy building. Jim Wickert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 09:38:12 EDT To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Kr2dream@aol.com Subject: Question Message-ID: --part1_e6.15212646.282aa244_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry to waste the bandwidth but I have only received two posts in the last week. Has everyone left or is AOL screwing me? I have complained to them four times and received one response to fix my computer. Bob Lasecki Frustrated in Chicago --part1_e6.15212646.282aa244_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 09:45:19 -0400 To: "'Kr2dream@aol.com'" , krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Garland, Norm F" Subject: RE: KR> Question Message-id: <9CB8E413E225D3119A8300508B08F2AB07D2D00F@emss03m10.orl.lmco.com> When in doubt about traffic on the net I would recomend checking the archive file. I don't know how it is set up but it seems to be real time. http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ From what I've heard of AOL I personally will never subscribe unless that is the only option available Norm Garland Jax FL Bob Lasecki Wrote > > Sorry to waste the bandwidth but I have only received two posts in the > last > week. Has everyone left or is AOL screwing me? I have complained to them > > four times and received one response to fix my computer. > > Bob Lasecki > Frustrated in Chicago ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 2001 08:48:00 -0700 To: "Kr2dream@aol.com" , "krnet@mailinglists.org" From: "Schmidt, Curtis" Subject: RE: KR> Question Message-ID: <00085ECA@kaydon.com> Yep, you been screwed!!!! You've missed out on some good fiber glassing inf= o. I've been getting about 15 to 20 post per day. Curtis Schmidt -----Original Message----- From: Kr2dream@aol.com [mailto:Kr2dream@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 9:36 AM To: krnet@mailinglists.org Cc: cschmidt@kaydon.com Subject: KR> Question Sorry to waste the bandwidth but I have only received two posts in the last week. Has everyone left or is AOL screwing me? I have complained to them four times and received one response to fix my computer. Bob Lasecki Frustrated in Chicago ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 09:17:43 -0500 (CDT) To: From: Steven Eberhart cc: Subject: Re: KR> Question Message-ID: On Wed, 9 May 2001 Kr2dream@aol.com wrote: > Sorry to waste the bandwidth but I have only received two posts in the last > week. Has everyone left or is AOL screwing me? Looks like it. KRNet is starting to pick up again with actual questions and answers about KR construction. > I have complained to them > four times and received one response to fix my computer. Looks like a new ISP might be in order. Steve Eberhart mailto:newtech@newtech.com One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are easier to get. --plagiarized from an unknown author ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 07:12:02 -0700 (PDT) To: 'KRNet' From: Frank Ross Subject: Making Bubble Canopies Message-ID: <20010509141203.29897.qmail@web4701.mail.yahoo.com> Danny, Go to: http://recumbents.com/wisil/bubbles/hpvbubbles.htm and see how bicyclists make "bubble" fairings at home. You can adapt this to make any number of canopies or clear bubbles. Many canopies start as a bubble, which is then cut in half, making two canopies. Even if you don't use this method, it's fun to play around with. You may end up making some small bubbles to use as inspection ports or lens covers. Enjoy. ===== Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:40:42 EDT To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Laheze@aol.com Subject: Re fiberglassing correction Message-ID: <31.146f4e3c.282abefa@aol.com> The Velocity wings are built this way, the fuselages are made in molds probably using prepreg bid, but not sure about that. Larry Howell laheze@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 2001 11:45:00 -0700 To: "krnet@mailinglists.org" From: "Schmidt, Curtis" Subject: Type 4 crank Message-ID: <000862E2@kaydon.com> Hey guys, can anyone tell me where exactly GP puts the key for a "force one= " prop hub on a type 4 crank? Surly they don't rely on the tiny one that's = on the small tapered end! Any help from you guys that have done your own ma= chine work would be great. Curtis Schmidt KR2 for sale (but I'm still working on it) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 12:56:09 -0400 To: From: "Bill McCraw" Subject: Subject: RE: KR> Re Fiberglassing Message-ID: <000c01c0d8a8$f23f1660$9f70e218@nimc1.on.home.com> ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0D887.6B0BE4A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Bottom line being you cannot get out of doing all that diagonal = cutting by > trying to use UNI cloth. And, it would be downright UNSAFE to use UNI where > BID is called for. Hi KRnetters: Speaking with over 20 years experience in high-performance composites (motorsports and aviation), I couldn't help but comment on the on-going thread of posts about fiberglassing. There have been scores of very good points brought out (a couple of techniques I'll have to try out myself), = and all delivered without ATTITUDE. This is the way I pictured the KRNET = would work when I joined. Congrats everyone. I'd like to add my $0.02cdn.(not worth much in the rest of North = America). First,on the subject of bid and uni. While it's possible to create a laminate of equal strength to a bid layer (with a little added weight) = using 2 layers of uni, the process opens up the possibilities for all kinds of problems. First of all there is twice the work,cutting, laminating etc. = Air bubbles, inaccurate fiber orientation, and poor control over resin = content could seriously degrade the strength of the layup. My point is be = careful when substituting laminate schedules. Bear in mind that in many ways = you are not only building a wing or whatever, but you are also designing /building the material that your part is made of. A builder of an alum. aircraft won't(shouln't)arbitrarily substitute a differant alloy for one = of his parts, because he knows that at some point a designer/engineer = worked out the loading on that part based on KNOWN properties of the material = it's being built of. Composite builders screw with these known properties = when substituting materails, and sometimes the results give the = anti-composite crowd lots of stuff to talk about. Step very carefully here. Peel ply-- I've used lots of the cheap stuff (I'm of Scottish desent = ;-)) and have been made aware of it's limitations. I won't use it where = there is concern for the strength of a secondary bond because of possible contamination concerns. I won't use it on "busy" parts, ones with lots = of contours because it's too hard to get off. Someone made a good point = about pulling the peel early before the resin totaly set. We've done this then bagged the part under a light vacuum to maintain the part's true shape = while the resin cured thouroughly. One time, we laid up some body panels for a = GTP car using cheap peel (it was an emergency and that's all we had) only to find the car, transporter and all, on our doorstep monday morning with = the owner thoroughly "explaining" to us how most of the paint blew off. I naturally tried to blame the painters but we traced it to something in = the peel fabric--this was one of the few incidents where cheap peel let me = down and thankfully it was not a structural situation only a $$$$ one, but it helped me to understand the implications of using cheaper substitutes. Sorry this ran so long but I feel stongly about safety in composite construction. Again, weigh out your substitution descisions very = carefully, be wary of materials of unknown origin, and don't be afraid to test to validate results. Composite aircraft are strong, light,and beautifully shaped; it's no wonder builders using more traditional methods are = jealous :-) Build safe and let's not give them any bad things to talk about. Happy glassing, Bill McCraw Naigara Falls, Canada. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0D887.6B0BE4A0-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 16:36:43 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: robert Subject: Paint Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010509163643.007c6a80@mail.forcomm.net> Don't laugh to hard...But, I did a Hiperlight with Krylon paint, two coats of oil base and 4" white foam rollers and it looks great...after Five years...Same way Stits does it.....and my way was alot CHEAPER.... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 18:14:21 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: larry flesner Subject: Re:KR>Fiberglassing Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010509181421.00875540@pop3.norton.antivirus> >Fiberglass is at its strongest in straight lines, kinks weaken it. >When you lay the unidirectional at 45 degree angle to leading edge of your >wing for example, you just butt up the next width of uni with the previous >width without overlapping. You will have to put two layers on your wings >though like this at opposite angles. It is not that big of deal though. All >the varieze, longeze, cozy, defiant, velocity airplanes wings and fuselages >are built with unidirectional cloth laid up like this. >Larry Howell laheze@aol.com >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ During all the fiberglass discussion, I don't recall anyone mentioning "torsional" strength. (see kr2 plans, page 9, "cutting on the bias".) It apparently was important enough for Ken to specify this method and put it in the plans. Words like "greatly enhances torsional strength" are used to make his point. Unless you are an engineer, I'd suggest staying with the plans. Why use UNI if you have to use twice as much cloth, more resin, etc. I've never heard of a failure of the "one layer of BID". If you make a good 45 degree cut, you can leave one of the 45 degree ends on the cut and flip the next piece over and put your seam on a 45 on the wing and save some waste. I found a lot of uses for the "waste" by cutting strips for attaching turtledeck, making fairings, etc. Another thought, if you butt joint the UNI as suggested, wouldn't you be back to a "single layer strength" at the joints? I covered my lay-ups with the light weight deck cloth ( 1.2 oz ? ) while still wet and it looks like I've saved a lot of fill and sand. It looks like primer will be sufficent for large areas of the lay-ups. I can't say for sure because I'm just now at the point of fill/sand/prime. The deck cloth (?) is 50 inches wide so you can drape an entire wing surface at once. To get out the wrinkles, pull lightly around all edges. Then paint it on with a large, dry brush. Add whatever resin it takes to finish it out. It will soak up about half of what it needs from the primary lay-up if you work quickly enough. If you are careful, you can use a large rubber squeege to draw up some resin but the light stuff "pulls" easily until the resin sets. Your results may vary..... Enough rambling for now!! Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 21:13:04 EDT To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Flyer2mc@aol.com Subject: KR2-"For Sale" Message-ID: <9d.1511fff7.282b4520@aol.com> In regard to the Previous "For Sale" Ad ( KR2-N21JM) The Plane is located in Vine Grove, Kentucky (KY70). It is a taildragger, with approximately 6 hours of testing time on it. The plane has not been flown. In further interested please contact Steve Sutton @ 502-933-1282. No picture available at this time to post on the computer, I can send pictures to those interested. Thank you, Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 21:29:02 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Kenneth L Wiltrout Subject: Elevator gap seals Message-ID: <20010509.212903.-91555.1.klw1953@juno.com> Just wondering how some of you guys made your elevator gap seals. I'd like to close things up a bit. I've heard about tape and vinyl or some other product, but wouldn't that hang down on the bottom side?-----------------Kenny ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 20:35:07 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Elevator gap seals Message-ID: <01c501c0d8f1$7344a390$561cf618@600athlon> Kenny, See http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/tet/as5046inst.html down at the bottom for material and source. Oscar did the leg work for us, sampling several materials and tapes, and eventually arriving at this stuff, which is what Troy and Dean are using on their aileron gaps. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 18:59:52 -0700 To: Robert Stone From: "Ross R. Youngblood" CC: Bill Miller , krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> fiberglass and epoxy Message-ID: <3AF9F617.32CD2C2F@home.com> --------------096D8C941F003FB4E14C9C92 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the case of the plywood, it is so light that you are NOT paying for weight, the cardboard weighs as much as the plywood. You pay for the SIZE of the item, so be sure to buy three (or more) sheets, see if somone else around needs some A/C plywood. Also, there are other sources for good aircraft quality plywood, however ordering from Wicks and Aircraft Spruce seems to be the easiest, as they are used to packing and shipping the stuff. Generally Wicks is known to do a better job on quality for spruce (cut). -- Ross Robert Stone wrote: > Ross: You said you paid $45.00 for shipping on a sheet of 4' X 8' > 3/32 plywood. My question is, if you buy three or four sheets of the > same materiel is the shipping still $45.00 or is it more.Bob Stone, > Harker Heights, Txrlspjs@dashlink.com ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ross R. Youngblood > To: Bill Miller > Cc: krnet@mailinglists.org > Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 9:00 PM > Subject: Re: KR> fiberglass and epoxy > Bill, > You best bet is to grab the phone RIGHT NOW and order a > Wicks catalog, they have a parts > breakdown for most kits that they sell materials for. You > can buy "kits" or individual materials. > With regards to epoxy and foam.... buy epoxy in 1 or 2 > gallon kits. You probably don't want > to mess around with more of that stuff at a time, if you buy > all of it at once you save on shipping > as any order for paint, epoxy etc, carries a "Hazardous > Materials Charge". > > Wicks 800-221-9425 http://www.wicksaircraft.com > > I recommend "Structural Adheasive" or "T88" for wood to > wood gluing, and "Aeropoxy" for all > you glass/kevlar/carbon fiber stuff. The cheaper route is > to buy DOW DER catalyst/resin for > the glass, but I liked how Aeropoxy mixed, and it smelled > less nasty. > > I have a 1997 Wicks Catalog and on page 65-66 it has a > breakdown of most of the parts... > caution... I found that things like bolts were a guide... I > ended up buying more bolts of different > sizes, but it gives you the general idea. > > I found that I spent a lot of $$ on shipping costs with > the build as you go method. But it > has been fun. A 4x8 sheet of 3/32" plywood cost me about > $90 in the early 90's and another > $45 for truck freight shipping. > > By the way, I have scanned the pages of the Wicks catalog > to > http://www.teleport.com/~rossy/wicks_1.jpg > http://www.teleport.com/~rossy/wicks_2.jpg > http://www.teleport.com/~rossy/wicks_3.jpg > -- Ross > Bill Miller wrote: > > > I have been looking over my kr2 plans...and trying to > > estimate about how much material is required. It gives the > > spruce list, but that is all.My questions are...1. about > > how many 24x48 sheets of 2" foam is required for the tail > > assembly? 2. how many 24x48 sheets of 1" foam is required > > for the wing assemblies?3. how many yards of 5.85oz > > fiberglass cloth is required?4. about how many gal. of > > epoxy?5. how many 4x8 sheets of 3/32 ply is required for > > the fuse? i appreciate any replies.....have to work out > > the budget so i can get this bird started! > --------------096D8C941F003FB4E14C9C92 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------D4627A2A8C445EDF3CEE92FD" --------------D4627A2A8C445EDF3CEE92FD Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the case of the plywood, it is so light that you are NOT paying for weight, the
cardboard weighs as much as the plywood.  You pay for the SIZE of the item,
so be sure to buy three (or more) sheets, see if somone else around needs some
A/C plywood.

Also, there are other sources for good aircraft quality plywood, however ordering
from Wicks and Aircraft Spruce seems to be the easiest, as they are used to packing
and shipping the stuff.  Generally Wicks is known to do a better job on quality for
spruce (cut).

-- Ross

Robert Stone wrote:

 Ross:  You said you paid $45.00 for shipping on a sheet of 4' X 8' 3/32 plywood.  My question is, if you buy three or four sheets of the same materiel is the shipping still $45.00 or is it more.Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Txrlspjs@dashlink.com   ----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: KR> fiberglass and epoxy
 Bill,
  You best bet is to grab the phone RIGHT NOW and order a Wicks catalog, they have a parts
breakdown for most kits that they sell materials for.  You can buy "kits" or individual materials.
With regards to epoxy and foam.... buy epoxy in 1 or 2 gallon kits.  You probably don't want
to mess around with more of that stuff at a time, if you buy all of it at once you save on shipping
as any order for paint, epoxy etc, carries a "Hazardous Materials Charge".

  Wicks 800-221-9425 http://www.wicksaircraft.com

 I recommend "Structural Adheasive" or "T88" for wood to wood gluing, and "Aeropoxy" for all
you glass/kevlar/carbon fiber stuff.   The cheaper route is to buy DOW DER catalyst/resin for
the glass, but I liked how Aeropoxy mixed, and it smelled less nasty.

  I have a 1997 Wicks Catalog and on page 65-66 it has a breakdown of most of the parts...
caution... I found that things like bolts were a guide... I ended up buying more bolts of different
sizes, but it gives you the general idea.

  I found that I spent a lot of $$ on shipping costs with the build as you go method.  But it
has been fun.  A 4x8 sheet of 3/32" plywood cost me about $90 in the early 90's and another
$45 for truck freight shipping.

  By the way, I have scanned the pages of the Wicks catalog to
http://www.teleport.com/~rossy/wicks_1.jpg
http://www.teleport.com/~rossy/wicks_2.jpg
http://www.teleport.com/~rossy/wicks_3.jpg
 -- Ross
Bill Miller wrote:

I have been looking over my kr2 plans...and trying to estimate about how much material is required. It gives the spruce list, but that is all.My questions are...1. about how many 24x48 sheets of 2" foam is required for the tail assembly? 2. how many 24x48 sheets of 1" foam is required for the wing assemblies?3. how many yards of 5.85oz fiberglass cloth is required?4. about how many gal. of epoxy?5. how many 4x8 sheets of 3/32 ply is required for the fuse? i appreciate any replies.....have to work out the budget so i can get this bird started!
--------------D4627A2A8C445EDF3CEE92FD Content-Type: application/x-unknown-content-type Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\nsmail64.TMP" --------------D4627A2A8C445EDF3CEE92FD-- --------------096D8C941F003FB4E14C9C92-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 19:07:10 -0700 To: "HEATH, DANIEL R" From: "Ross R. Youngblood" CC: 'Kenneth L Wiltrout' , krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> N6399U Message-ID: <3AF9F7CE.358B856B@home.com> There have been a couple of posts that indicate to me that the spar wood/bolt joint would fail before the AN-6 bolts would fail in sheer. Have you ever looked at one of those stubby bolts? They are confidence builders to me. -- Ross "HEATH, DANIEL R" wrote: > Thank you all for all the information and opinions on the "Bolt Debate". I > agree with the loading factors that are addressed by the single bolt, but I > am really apprehensive about the "what if it fails" possibility. > > Does anyone know of any tests that have ever been performed on these AN6 > bolts in shear, that support their NOT failing under the stress loads that > may occur in this application? > > Thank you all very much, > > Daniel R. Heath > DHeath@Scana.com > (803)217-9984 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ross R. Youngblood [mailto:rossy65@home.com] > Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 9:09 PM > To: HEATH, DANIEL R > Cc: 'Kenneth L Wiltrout'; krnet@mailinglists.org > Subject: Re: KR> N6399U > > If you are talking about the wing attach bolts, I always thought that there > were 4 bolts fwd > and 4 bolts aft 1 bolt for each pair of attach fittings. (4 AN-6 and 4 AN-3 > bolts for each wing) > > I have heard about a single bolt approach, but the 4 bolt method seems to be > better to me. > > -- Ross > > "HEATH, DANIEL R" wrote: > > > Speaking of inspections reminded me of one thing the inspector pointed out > > to me on my first KR. He had me replace the single long bolt ( pin ) that > > attached the top and the one that attached the bottom of the wing, with > > individual bolts for each attach point. Does anyone have an opinion on > > which way is best? > > > > I am looking at using one bolt with a spacer between, on this one. > > > > Daniel R. Heath > > DHeath@Scana.com > > (803)217-9984 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kenneth L Wiltrout [mailto:klw1953@juno.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 6:16 PM > > To: krnet@mailinglists.org > > Subject: KR> N6399U > > > > Just an update on N6399U. I had my FAA inspection on Tuesday, it was > > performed by a DAR since the FAA was entirely to busy. Any how it went > > extremely well. The DAR only found minor issues that required a decal or > > two. He only asked that I get those decals on as soon as I could, then > > promptly issued the airworthiness cert. For those of us that went through > > this ordeal, I think I can speak for all of us when I say,GLAD THAT"S > > OVER!!!!! 99U is based in Kutztown Pa and will under go ground and flight > > testing as soon as I get insurance. Hopefully by next > > weekend.--------------------Kenny > > ________________________________________________________________ > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 19:11:07 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Ross R. Youngblood" Subject: ACS Darn! Message-ID: <3AF9F8BB.1F8AA0F@home.com> Aircraft Spruce called me yesterday to tell me that one of the "Cable B" end nuts I ordered was on back order. I didn't have my ACS catalog and assumed since I ordered samples of each I had a 66% chance of getting the one I wanted and told them to ship it anyway. The great news is that the package arrived today. The bad news is that the one that was backordered was the one that fits the Ellison TBI mixture arm... Bummer. Looks like I will be trying to turn one of these on a lathe to get it down to the correct size. We have a small one at work so I guess that will be the fastest solution. Bummer. -- Ross ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 22:01:56 -0500 (CDT) To: From: Steven Eberhart Subject: Re: KR> Epoxy - Fiberglass Working (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 00:02:47 -0300 From: Eduardo Iglesias To: Steven Eberhart Subject: Re: KR> Epoxy - Fiberglass Working Dear netters I have habitually used the micro in a 4:1 relationship, and after mixed I add 20% of alcohol that gives it a consistency of soft honey, very easy of stretching with a squeege. I believe that the best thing is to put the fiber and epoxi about 20-30 minutes after the micro, in way of not making necessary to be sanded. To me this proceed done good results Eduardo ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Eberhart To: HEATH, DANIEL R Cc: 'Peter Johnson' ; Sent: Lunes, 07 de Mayo de 2001 10:50 a.m. Subject: RE: KR> Epoxy - Fiberglass Working > > According to Bert Rutan's book and video the micro slurry is used to "key" > the glass layers to the porous foam. Regular epoxy can be used but is > heavier than a mixture of micro baloons and epoxy. It is the grip that is > formed by working the micro slurry into the pores of the foam that > increases adhesion of the glass to the foam core. No mention was made > about outgassing of the foam. What was said was that all of the small > airbubles in the epoxy join together to form bigger bubbles. It is also > stressed how easy it is to squegee IN air between the weave of the fabric > and that you have to really work to get all of the air out. > > Steve Eberhart > > > > > On Mon, 7 May 2001, HEATH, DANIEL R wrote: > > > I was reading the Aircraft Spruce catalog on working with resin and foam. > > One thing mentioned was to be sure to cover the foam with a micro slurry > > before putting on your glass. This was to prevent the escape of air from > > the foam, which would cause bubbles. This might be what is causing the > > problem. > > > > Daniel R. Heath > > DHeath@Scana.com > > (803)217-9984 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Peter Johnson [mailto:pjohnson@voyageur.ca] > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 10:25 PM > > To: krnet@mailinglists.org > > Subject: KR> Epoxy - Fiberglass Working > > > > > > Ok, so Bill discovered he used peel ply to make his seats, no big problem, > > as long as the material stays together. Those of you with marine experience > > probably know that sometimes good quality linen is used with epoxy on layups > > because linen has much better impact resistance than glass cloth weight for > > weight. "Anything can be done with anything, provided you design for it." > > > > Here's some info on epoxy/cloth layups that I hope may be of help to others. > > > > First, epoxy does not give off a gas while curing. If a gas is being given > > off it's because the substrate is reacting with the epoxy, this is NOT GOOD > > and any bubbling that may occur in the cloth cannot just be stippled out. > > The root problem must be addressed. Fortunatly epoxy does not react with > > too many materials and the problem of substrates reacting negatively are > > slim. For what it's worth, epoxy will slowly desolve hot melt glue and some > > single component adhesives. I mention this because I know some of you are > > using these adhesives to hold your foam in place on the structure. Not a > > big deal because it is the epoxy that holds everything together after it is > > applied and has curied. One situation that may cause grief is if you have a > > piece of foam that is under stress after fitting it, you've got just a bit > > of adhesive holding it in place, and the adhesive is close to the surface. > > If the epoxy were to desolve this bit of adhesive the foam may move on you. > > Just food for thought... > > > > Bubbling IN epoxy can occur due to over mixing. Air becomes entrained in > > the epoxy during mixing, and due to natural heating of the epoxy during > > curing, these small air entrainments can expand. The cure for bubbling > > caused by this is simple; using a hair dryer, CAREFULLY!!! just WARM the > > epoxy as soon as possible after completing the layup. Do not warm it to the > > point that it begins to flow, this is too warm, instead, if you watch > > closely, you will see the entrained air expand and then pop up at the > > surface of the epoxy. The best way to prevent this air entrainment is to > > mix your epoxy slowly, in a circular pattern, in a large, round, shallow > > bowl using a plastic spatula. (I use microwave safe paper bowls, no corners, > > just the right size to complete a good size layup, cheap, and reusable too! > > Use a plastic spatula because rubber will absorb epoxy and the spatula will > > be shot after one use. Plastic spats are cheaper and reusable.) > > > > Another cause of bubbling in cloth layups occurs because the cloth has not > > been layed down flat, smooth and tight on the work surface. If you have > > anykind of 'looseness' of the cloth while it is laying dry on the wing or > > fuse or whatever, this 'loose' cloth will come together as your are applying > > epoxy and, just because there is no room for it to go anywhere on the > > surface, it will rise up and cause a 'bubble'. This is not good of course > > because the cloth is high, unstable, and unable to carry any loads without > > buckling, and it is impossible to work the surface to produce a finish > > without cutting through the cloth and this is of course completely > > unacceptable! A couple of ways to prevent this type of 'bubbling' is to > > ensure you never fold your cloth. If your cloth is folded, lay it out on a > > flat surface and using clean hands smooth it flat before laying it on the > > work. Once the cloth is layed on the work area smooth it out flat, working > > from the center of the cloth to outer edges. Another thing to do to prevent > > this 'bubbling' is to always complete your squeeging of the epoxy moving the > > squeege in a direction from the center of the layup area to the outer edges > > of the layup, this way you are always pulling the cloth tight. > > > > With regards to using Saran Wrap to overlay a layup, it works great except > > for one thing, don't use Saran Wrap. As one fellow here pointed out, light > > material like Saran Wrap will fold, wrinkle, get krinkly, and generally be > > annoying to work with. Instead, use heavy poly or vapour barrier as an > > overlay (off a roll, not unfolded from a precut package), and get someone to > > help you hold the plastic up tight and lay it down on the work. This > > technigue is reffered to as 'vaccumless bagging' and was described by > > another KR Net member early last year. If done properly the method produces > > an amazing surface with no pinholes! Try it on a practise area if you are > > curious. > > > > Hope this info is of assistance to someone. If there is anything I can do > > to help anyone with this type of work, please drop me a note, I will > > endeavour to reply as soon as possible. > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > Steve Eberhart > mailto:newtech@newtech.com > > One test is worth a thousand expert opinions but a thousand opinions are > easier to get. --plagiarized from an unknown author > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 23:27:22 -0400 To: rossy65@home.com From: DennisMingear@netscape.net Cc: bstarrs@cybertrails.com, Krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Reminder (please do not take offense) Message-ID: <1FD82137.7B58F855.5363BC18@netscape.net> I'll second that... rossy65@home.com wrote: > > I pray that we will have no more posts like this one. > >  -- Ross >      KRnet admin. > > "William J. Starrs" wrote: > > > To day is the National day of Prayer,started by President Truman in 1945. Pray for our country. > > > > Visit the Arizona Catholic Evidence Guild at www.cybertrails.com/~bstarrs  Find out for yourself exactly what the Catholic Church teaches. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************