From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 13 May 2001 15:53:12 -0000 Issue 223 Date: Sunday, May 13, 2001 8:53 AM krnet Digest 13 May 2001 15:53:12 -0000 Issue 223 Topics (messages 5335 through 5363): wing foam and fiberglassing 5335 by: Oscar Zuniga Re: ignition 5336 by: Frank Ross 5337 by: Ross R. Youngblood Re: KR Wing Foam 5338 by: Ross R. Youngblood 5339 by: Ross R. Youngblood 5340 by: Garland, Norm F 5343 by: Laheze.aol.com 5345 by: virgnvs.juno.com 5354 by: Bill McCraw The beauty of the correct tool. 5341 by: Ross R. Youngblood Plastic 5342 by: robert 5356 by: Ross R. Youngblood Plastic/Fiberglassing 5344 by: Laheze.aol.com 5346 by: HEATH, DANIEL R Re: KR-1 for sale $1000 5347 by: Flymaca711689.cs.com Foaming 5348 by: John and Janet Martindale aerodynamic/static balance "horns" 5349 by: Hafsteinn Jonasson Re: [Dragonflylist] Warnke propeller - a bad experience] 5350 by: pjvisc.netzero.net Warnke Propellers 5351 by: Robert Stone 5353 by: pjvisc.netzero.net radio deal 5352 by: Rick Human 30th Anniversary 5355 by: Jim Faughn IRON KR 5357 by: Ross R. Youngblood 5358 by: Bill McCraw Old KR's 5359 by: Philip Heavirland 5361 by: Ed Janssen Using plastic in layups 5360 by: Mark Langford polyfuse 5362 by: shannon spurgeon Rolling and Tipping 5363 by: Peter Johnson Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 13:53:38 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: wing foam and fiberglassing Message-ID: G'day, netters; I guess I'll toss in my 2 cents' worth on this one, too. I'm using extruded polystyrene foam, the pink kind (Ow*ns-C*rning), but physically and chemically it's the same as the blue kind (D*w). It's great to work with. Now, the only place I'm going to use urethane foam is in the wet parts of the wing (fuel tanks), because I've seen what happens when polystyrene (and most other foams) even get in the same room with gasoline. Forget delamination; the stuff just disappears. Urethane/polyurethane are resistant to fuels, so if you build your tanks out of a fuel-resistant foam, using vinylester resin (also fuel-resistant), the odds improve in your favor. Just my choice. On the fiberglassing issue, I'm using bid cloth and Aeropoxy; it's a sweet combination. I can't imagine using two layers of uni if I have the option of using a single layer of bid instead... just for the lowered amount of work in doing the layup. If you consider the cost of a roll of glass cloth, relative to the total cost of your project, it is insignificant to be worrying about trimming waste due to having to lay your cloth on a bias. Heck, save the larger cutoffs- you will most certainly use them sometime during your project. I save everything bigger than about 4" square, and the pieces get used up here and there on little things. Might as well go for three topics in one message here: relative to the microslurry prep, I do it on every larger layup, to fill the foam. I do it the "wet way", and lay my glass up right over the wet micro. It makes no sense to me to let the micro dry, scuff sand it, then do a wet layup over a dry surface. Logically (to me, at least), I will get much better grip between the glass layup and the foam substrate if the glass layup is wet-linked right into the pores of the foam by the microslurry bed. So, the micro fills the foam pores to reduce weight from resin soaking in, and it also provides a tight epoxy bond between the glass layup and the foam. Plus it eliminates a step of that blasted sanding! A dry layer of micro, no matter how smooth it was laid down, is still rough and will need some sanding or else the glass layup is gonna be rougher than it could be. Ahh... go for 4 topics in one post? What the heck- Ross does it all the time! The plastic sheeting topic. I use the clear construction plastic (vi*queen), but I did make the mistake of buying the stuff that comes folded, not rolled. In order to avoid having ridges or creases in my layups, I have to cut out the plastic to the shape I need, then use an iron to iron out the fold creases in the plastic. It takes a light hand with the iron to avoid melting the stuff, but on a large, flat layup that crease in the plastic will most surely show up as a line in your finished layup no matter how hard you squeegee. Get the roll stuff. The beauty of using the plastic sheeting is that you can firmly and smoothly squeegee your layup, get out all excess resin, eliminate air bubbles, see your layup perfectly through the clear plastic, and end up with a very smooth surface when you peel it off. I've tried squeegeeing wetted-out glass without the plastic over it, and I just can't apply any pressure without distorting the weave, snagging the cloth, and like that. Happy glassing and sanding! Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.geocities.com/taildrags/ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 07:01:25 -0700 (PDT) To: John and Janet Martindale , KRnet , corvaircraft@usm.edu From: Frank Ross Subject: Re: KR> ignition Message-ID: <20010511140125.27407.qmail@web4703.mail.yahoo.com> > Hi folks .... > What about fuel pumps?? Only got lights and avionics > left...much more and I won't need the relay at > all!!! > > John John, This reminded me of the bumper sticker I saw recently (maybe on KRnet?) "Only one more repossession and I'm debt-free!" ===== Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 07:54:03 -0700 To: John and Janet Martindale From: "Ross R. Youngblood" CC: KRnet , corvaircraft@usm.edu Subject: Re: KR> ignition Message-ID: <3AFBFD0B.E656E73F@home.com> John, Hmm I hadn't thought much about this recently. I originally purchased two relays one master for the battery and one for the starter, but it turned out my starter has a built in relay. Both my Starter Relay and Master (Battery) Relay get their power from the Battery Directly using #4 gauge Mill spec white wire. (This is overkill perhaps, but I have a short run of cable). The master relay has to be on to provide power for the starter silinoid. (At least thats what my hadn drawn schematic shows. I ran #14 wire for the coil side of these relays. I ran #10 wire from the Battery master to the Power bus, The Alternator regulator power is connected with #10 wire to a 40A Alternator Push Pull circuit breaker and then to the battery bus. This way, I can isolate either the Alternator with the push/pull breaker, or the battery, with the battery master. John and Janet Martindale wrote: > Hi folks > > I have a master relay (see Aircraft Spruce part no. 111-226) mounted next to my battery. Are folks taking their coil ignition power from before or after this relay? If the relay fails does it default to the on position via a spring or something similiar? If not, I imagine taking the power direct from the battery before the relay would be safer. What about fuel pumps?? Only got lights and avionics left...much more and I won't need the relay at all!!! > > John ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 07:59:25 -0700 To: "Robert X. Cringely" From: "Ross R. Youngblood" CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> KR Wing Foam Message-ID: <3AFBFE4D.C0AB09C5@home.com> I think Low Density is also low weight. Does the PVC foam weigh less per size than the Urethane? If so I'll be quiet on this topic. You can use any foam you like as it is experimental.... however we are not using the Urethane for structural strength, just to form the initial shape of the airfoils. I have used Styrofoam on parts of my project and it has its merits as well, but I haven't tried the PVC foam. How does it's weight compare? -- Ross "Robert X. Cringely" wrote: > The low density foam used in KRs is just as bad as you say. PVC foam > is better for everything except shaping. Last-a-Foam is better, too, > even though it is a polyeurathane and can be carved. It is also much > cheaper than PVC. And Last-a-Foam, not PVC, is the most commonly > used foam in molded composites. Lancair used to use PVC but > generally now uses Nomex honeycomb. Glasairs, Wheelers, and > Velocities all use Last-a-Foam in premolded parts. My Glasair > (serial number 102) uses Clark foam, the predecessor to Last-a-Foam, > and has had no delamination problems during 22 years of hard use. > > Bob > > >Hi Gang! > > > >I thought that while some of you are mad at me I may as well get another > >subject started. > >Urethane Foam. I will say right up front that this is the worst foam in the > >world to be building airplanes from. It has very poor shear, tensile, and > >compressive strength when it comes to holding fiberglass to it's self. It is > >obviously poor just by observing it become destroyed when you accidentally > >bump it wrong with your squeegee, finger, beltbuckle or whatever. You can > >shape it with pieces of itself. You can rub two pieces of it together for a > >very short time and they both will disappear into a pile of dust on your > >floor, in your ears, in your eyes, in your hair, in your house and everywhere. > >This stuff is the cause of the delamination of wing skins that have been > >talked about here before. I am repairing a KR2 that was damaged and while I > >have been working on the interior of the plane, I have put weight in just the > >wrong place a few times on the stub wings and hear that awfull sound of > >cracking, delaminating foam. That is distressing to me in thinking that if a > >better foam had been used I may not have heard those sounds. I did replace > >the foam in the bottom of the damaged stubb wings with pvc and the top of one > >side where all the urethane had delaminated. What a difference in strength. > >Burt Rutan had us all use the green and tan urethane foams to build the > >fuselages of the variezes. It worked ok I guess there are still a lot of them > >flying around. Burt discovered a much superior foam later, PVC then known as > >klegicell foam, maybe now known widely as divinicell. Burt then had us all > >use the pvc foams in the Longezes, and Defiants for the fuselages because it > >has a much higher tensile, compressive, and shear strength. All the > >premolded kit planes use a form of pvc foam as their cores. The point here > >is, as technology and knowledge change we are supposed to learn from it. I > >know a bunch of you guys are using pvc foams in your planes and some are > >using styrofoam. I think that is great because I believe those foams are > >better than the urethane. I truly believe that if Ken Rand were alive today > >he would certainly be using any new technology that was within reasonable > >cost. There is no doubt that the pvc foams are more expensive, but hey, > >would you rather be trying to repair those delaminated wings because your > >urethane gave way when someone accidentally leaned or sat on one of them. > >I do use urethane foam for forming plugs when I am going to make a mold, and > >I used it on the nose of my longeze as instructed to shape the point, but > >that is it. > >Urethane foam has its place in history and florists love it for sticking > >flower arrangements into it. > >Now, some of you can nail me to the cross! > > > >Larry Howell laheze@aol.com > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > > > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > -- > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:11:03 -0700 To: "HEATH, DANIEL R" From: "Ross R. Youngblood" CC: 'Bill McCraw' , krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> KR Wing Foam Message-ID: <3AFC0107.C701D448@home.com> I think we should have a thread on using more Iron and Steel as it is stronger than aluminum and spruce. Perhaps someone could land their KR in a pool of plaster, then we could simply cast a KR out of Iron, It would be very strong, and not likely to need tiedowns in high winds. It would make a great sculpture. -- Ross "HEATH, DANIEL R" wrote: > Sure is easy to sand and why are all those KRs flying? > > Daniel R. Heath > DHeath@Scana.com > (803)217-9984 > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 11:12:33 -0400 To: "'rossy65@home.com'" , "HEATH, DANIEL R" From: "Garland, Norm F" Cc: "'Bill McCraw'" , krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: RE: KR> KR Wing Foam Message-id: <9CB8E413E225D3119A8300508B08F2AB07D2D01E@emss03m10.orl.lmco.com> This might work. You know they make boats out of concrete. Norm F. Garland Jr > -----Original Message----- > From: Ross R. Youngblood [SMTP:rossy65@home.com] > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 11:11 AM > To: HEATH, DANIEL R > Cc: 'Bill McCraw'; krnet@mailinglists.org > Subject: Re: KR> KR Wing Foam > > I think we should have a thread on using more Iron and Steel as it > is stronger than aluminum and spruce. > > Perhaps someone could land their KR in a pool of plaster, then we > could simply cast a KR out of Iron, It would be very strong, and > not likely to need tiedowns in high winds. It would make a great > sculpture. > > -- Ross > > "HEATH, DANIEL R" wrote: > > > Sure is easy to sand and why are all those KRs flying? > > > > Daniel R. Heath > > DHeath@Scana.com > > (803)217-9984 > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 14:45:50 EDT To: rossy65@home.com, krnet@mailinglists.org From: Laheze@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> KR Wing Foam Message-ID: <6e.a887603.282d8d5e@aol.com> Ross, The PVC foams are the same weight or less, but they are much stronger and new technology as compared to urethanes. My opinion is that 30 years ago the urethane foam may have been the only foam that Ken Rand could find that the epoxies did not affect too much or maybe someone gave it to him and then he decided to build an airplane from it. Also, making airplanes from steel seems like a good idea. I know Mark Langford has coverd various parts of his KR2 with it. ( Carbon Fibre) Have you looked at Marks' site lately? it is a great site. He has done a tremendous job and favor for all KR buildrs. Larry Howell laheze@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 15:28:47 -0400 To: rossy65@home.com From: virgnvs@juno.com Cc: bob@cringely.com, krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> KR Wing Foam Message-ID: <20010511.153657.-308681.1.virgnvs@juno.com> THE URETHANE FOAM i AM GOING TO USE IS 2# PER cubic foot, Virg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 01:27:19 -0400 To: From: "Bill McCraw" Cc: Subject: Re: KR> KR Wing Foam Message-ID: <006a01c0daa4$36b076c0$9f70e218@nimc1.on.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Ross R. Youngblood To: HEATH, DANIEL R Cc: 'Bill McCraw' ; Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 11:11 AM Subject: Re: KR> KR Wing Foam > I think we should have a thread on using more Iron and Steel as it > is stronger than aluminum and spruce. > > Perhaps someone could land their KR in a pool of plaster, then we > could simply cast a KR out of Iron, It would be very strong, and > not likely to need tiedowns in high winds. It would make a great > sculpture. > > -- Ross > > "HEATH, DANIEL R" wrote: > > > Sure is easy to sand and why are all those KRs flying? > > > > Daniel R. Heath > > DHeath@Scana.com > > (803)217-9984 > > > > Ross: Our company is tearing down an old factory and I thought my wife said it was ok to bring the scrap iron home so I did but it turns out that she doesn't like the huge pile on the front lawn. This stuff would make great spars and other stuff and I have to move it quick . I can send pix and you could chose a few choice pieces (you pay shipping) and they're yours . A little paint and it'll look like new stuff ;o)) Waiting to hear from you, Bill McCraw ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:16:20 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Ross R. Youngblood" Subject: The beauty of the correct tool. Message-ID: <3AFC0244.C0DB94B6@home.com> The maintence tech at work helped me turn the mixture "Cable B" nut on a small lathe. Actually, I turned it, but he gave me pointers. I did to of them, converting my Aircraft Spruce Part Number 05-16230 into an 05-16210, which it turns out, mates nicely with my Ellison Throttle Bodys Control Arm. I've built a temporary mixture linkage mount by strapping a piece of aluminum angle to the intake runner. The cable clamp is bolted to the angle. My only concern is that this could rotate in flight, a really bad thing, so I am looking for better solutions in the routing of the mixture cable, and securing of same.... If anyone has some photos of this area I could use the food for thought. Send/Post some appropriate links... -- Thanks! Ross ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 13:38:30 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: robert Subject: Plastic Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010511133830.007ad7a0@mail.forcomm.net> Could someone tell me about this plastic trick....???? You lay this on top of the wet glass to work out the glass..???? I'm sorry.But,I'm new to all this....I did get that KR-2...But, may need to know this down the road... Thanks Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 07:45:20 -0700 To: robert , krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Ross R. Youngblood" Subject: Re: KR> Plastic Message-ID: <3AFD4C80.5663FA3F@home.com> The plastic trick I was shown was to use a garbage bag as a template for your layup. Say you are doing a wheelpant, or a access cover. Mark the template oversize about 6"-1'. Then cut the outline, assuming this is a medium to small part, you will end up with two plastic sheets oversize for your part. If you use a white garbage bag you can use a sharpee marker to mark the front and back. I like these markers cause they mark fiberglass well, and CD-ROM's when I burn them. I was told never to use them for aluminum, as they etch the material. Then cut a piece of glass that will fit inside the plastic sheet. Pour resin on top of the glass. Make a glass sandwich by putting the other sheet of the plastic on top, and roll the epoxy out with a large dowl or rolling pin. This wets the cloth out without using excess resin. When you have no air voids, and the glass has been wetted out, then peel off one side of the plastic, and you have a fiberglass band-aid, which is EASY to position on the work to be glassed. (Slurried foam for example). When you have the glass in position, you can peel the top layer off and finish stippling with extra resin if necessary. I wouldn't leave the plastic on, as this is not vacuum bagging and you will get ridges in the finished work... I used plastic bags one time to cover my tail cone section when I re-did my tail cone access cover. Some glass got UNDERNEATH the plastic, and I had to finish sand all that resin away... took an entire day. -- Ross robert wrote: > Could someone tell me about this plastic trick....???? You lay this on top > of the wet glass to work out the glass..???? I'm sorry.But,I'm new to all > this....I did get that KR-2...But, may need to know this down the road... > Thanks > Bob > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 15:19:20 EDT To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Laheze@aol.com Subject: Plastic/Fiberglassing Message-ID: <8.1418fae5.282d9538@aol.com> Robert, There is an old trick in which you can lay out a piece of plastic on your work table about the size of an area that you want to apply fiberglass cloth too. Cut your cloth lay it on the plastic, pour resin into it, wet it out by squeegeeing it out. Then pick up the plastic with the wetted out cloth on it, carry it to your airplane or what ever you are covering and flip it over (glass cloth side down) onto your work. Squeegee it down on your plane or whatever you are covering with fiberglass cloth, very carefully. Some peel the plastic off right then carefully and then re squeegee and some probably leave it on for a while or until it cures. I have used this technique a lot in small areas that were upside down, which is hard to get wetted out while upside down or along a bulkhead to sidewall or floor joint. I usually just use saran or handiwrap. The times I have used this technique were at the joints I mentioned, where I was using 2 to 4 inch wide pieces of bid at a 45 degree angle. As you all know pieces that are cut that narrow distort very easy when you try to pick them up so it is best to very carefully roll them up as soon as you cut them. Pull out the handiwrap the proper length, unroll your 2 inch or whatever width cloth ontop of it, wet it out mostly by stippling it with a brush, (hard to use a squeegee on something that narrow without distorting it) but you can try if you want. Now carry it to the application area and put it in place. Easy-varieze! Larry Howell laheze@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 15:37:56 -0400 To: "'Laheze@aol.com'" , krnet@mailinglists.org From: "HEATH, DANIEL R" Subject: RE: KR> Plastic/Fiberglassing Message-ID: You can also just lay the plastic over the finished lay-up and roller out all the air. Let is set up and you have a slick finish. Daniel R. Heath DHeath@Scana.com (803)217-9984 -----Original Message----- From: Laheze@aol.com [mailto:Laheze@aol.com] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 3:19 PM To: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: KR> Plastic/Fiberglassing Robert, There is an old trick in which you can lay out a piece of plastic on your work table about the size of an area that you want to apply fiberglass cloth too. Cut your cloth lay it on the plastic, pour resin into it, wet it out by squeegeeing it out. Then pick up the plastic with the wetted out cloth on it, carry it to your airplane or what ever you are covering and flip it over (glass cloth side down) onto your work. Squeegee it down on your plane or whatever you are covering with fiberglass cloth, very carefully. Some peel the plastic off right then carefully and then re squeegee and some probably leave it on for a while or until it cures. I have used this technique a lot in small areas that were upside down, which is hard to get wetted out while upside down or along a bulkhead to sidewall or floor joint. I usually just use saran or handiwrap. The times I have used this technique were at the joints I mentioned, where I was using 2 to 4 inch wide pieces of bid at a 45 degree angle. As you all know pieces that are cut that narrow distort very easy when you try to pick them up so it is best to very carefully roll them up as soon as you cut them. Pull out the handiwrap the proper length, unroll your 2 inch or whatever width cloth ontop of it, wet it out mostly by stippling it with a brush, (hard to use a squeegee on something that narrow without distorting it) but you can try if you want. Now carry it to the application area and put it in place. Easy-varieze! Larry Howell laheze@aol.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 15:42:55 EDT To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Flymaca711689@cs.com Subject: Fwd: KR-1 for sale $1000 Message-ID: --part1_e3.14818da7.282d9abf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_e3.14818da7.282d9abf_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-za03.mx.aol.com (rly-za03.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.99]) by air-za01.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.36) with ESMTP; Fri, 11 May 2001 15:41:28 2000 Received: from lists.kz (root.starfire.douglas.ma.us [216.129.136.8]) by rly-za03.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.36) with ESMTP; Fri, 11 May 2001 15:41:18 -0400 Received: (qmail 16702 invoked by alias); 11 May 2001 20:27:17 -0000 Mailing-List: contact VW-help@lists.kz; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk Reply-To: VW@lists.kz Delivered-To: mailing list VW@lists.kz Received: (qmail 16695 invoked from network); 11 May 2001 20:27:17 -0000 Received: from imo-r13.mx.aol.com (152.163.225.67) by ns1.starfire.douglas.ma.us with SMTP; 11 May 2001 20:27:17 -0000 Received: from Tlongcrier@aol.com by imo-r13.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.10.) id f.47.b46b58d (4465) for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 15:40:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Tlongcrier@aol.com Message-ID: <47.b46b58d.282d9a10@aol.com> Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 15:40:00 EDT Subject: Re: KR-1 for sale $1000 To: VW@lists.kz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_47.b46b58d.282d9a10_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10523 --part1_47.b46b58d.282d9a10_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ed. If this post is for me, I think I will pass at this time. Sorry I did not get back to you sooner. Good luck on moving it. T. Longcrier --part1_47.b46b58d.282d9a10_boundary-- --part1_e3.14818da7.282d9abf_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 09:49:37 +1000 To: "KRnet" From: "John and Janet Martindale" Subject: Foaming Message-ID: <006301c0da75$2728fbc0$3b93fcd8@JohnMartindale> ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01C0DAC8.DB87D340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks I recommend Divinylcell blue foam, it doesn't powder like urethane, is = unaffected by fuel and sands beautifully. You can get it in various = densities. It is strong and has a fibreglass rear lining that can be = wetted out with little problem. Best of all, it can be grooved at the = factory allowing it to be bent around curves, for example, on the wing. = The grooves can be filled with micro and then glassed over giving a skin = cross section thus TTTTTTTTTTTTT. Whilst a little bit heavier, it = results in a skin that I reckon would have a lot of difficulty = delaminating. I would prefer the latter and the weight penalty is = minimal. My wings built this way weighed 50 lbs including an aluminium = fuel tank. Don't forget that, whatever foam you use, it should be sealed = both sides with glass. Regards John. ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01C0DAC8.DB87D340-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 01:31:57 -0000 To: From: haffi@vortex.is (Hafsteinn Jonasson) Subject: aerodynamic/static balance "horns" Message-ID: <002501c0da83$55ede980$ac9104c1@c0g3t9> ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C0DA83.553E6FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi netters I'm thinking to insert aerodynamic/static balance "horns" on my = elevator. My concern is, how should that be done and how big should it = be? --- Hafsteinn J=F3nasson, Iceland haffi@vortex.is ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C0DA83.553E6FA0-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 22:37:35 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: pjvisc@netzero.net Subject: [Fwd: [Dragonflylist] Warnke propeller - a bad experience] Message-ID: <3AFCA1EF.95731975@netzero.net> --------------9519F883F8718221A4F9CB85 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone on KRNET heard of problems like this ? Phil Visconti Marlboro, MA --------------9519F883F8718221A4F9CB85 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Delivered-To: pjvisc@netzero.net Received: (qmail 14797 invoked from network); 11 May 2001 06:29:14 -0000 Received: from f19.egroups.com (64.211.240.234) by mail4.wlv.netzero.net with SMTP; 11 May 2001 06:29:14 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2466064-1405-989562557-pjvisc=netzero.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by f19.egroups.com with NNFMP; 11 May 2001 06:29:17 -0000 X-Sender: marmic@icon.co.za X-Apparently-To: Dragonflylist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 11 May 2001 06:29:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 86370 invoked from network); 11 May 2001 06:29:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 11 May 2001 06:29:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cgi.icon.co.za) (196.35.95.41) by mta1 with SMTP; 11 May 2001 06:29:11 -0000 Received: from mail450.icon.co.za (ismtp.icon.co.za [196.35.95.40]) by cgi.icon.co.za (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5226B4C5BB for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 08:29:08 +0200 (SAST) Received: from 00436364 (el53-01-p167.ec.saix.net [155.239.170.167]) by mail450.icon.co.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA21207 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 08:29:04 +0200 (GMT) To: "Dragonflylist@yahoogroups. com" Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 From: "Mike Wright" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list Dragonflylist@yahoogroups.com; contact Dragonflylist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list Dragonflylist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:31:51 +0200 Reply-To: Dragonflylist@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Dragonflylist] Warnke propeller - a bad experience Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Hi guys - I received this mail from the canard aviators list. This is really perturbing as the manufacturer although not known to me is to some of you. At worst the name is very well known to most EAA'ers. I hope that both parties in this disturbing report can come to an arrangement, as we are all losers if this type of practice continues. But then again, there are bad apples on all trees. Buyers be ware!!! Mike Wright +27 43 7066083 http://www.icon.co.za/~marmic South Africa -----Original Message----- From: Marc [mailto:borommarc@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 4:18 PM To: canard-aviators@yahoogroups.com Subject: [c-a] Warnke propeller - a bad experience Dear Canardians, I think it may be useful for some to learn of my experience with Margie Warnke Propellers. The experience has been a very disappointing and disturbing one. After four months of testing and tweaking without achieving the claimed performance, Margie Warnke took the unfinished prop back with a promise to refund my money. She has kept the unfinished prop and has kept my money ($950). I just got a court judgment against her today for the full amount plus court charges. This interaction has gone on for more than a year and is not yet over. I still have neither a refund nor a prop. I would, based on my experience, not recommend her services to anyone. Here are some of the details. In April of 2000 I talked with Margie Warnke of Tucson and she assured me that her propeller could easily gain me 25 mph in speed over what I was achieving with my Great American prop (now out of business). I said, "Great. Let's do it.". Warnke advertises in Sport Aviation and touts a "Satisfaction Guaranteed" offer. Instead of the promised 5 week delivery, I finally received my prop (in a rough state) for testing after waiting almost 16 weeks. Then came the debacle of bolthole drilling. The first bolt circle was drilled too small. The second bolt circle was drilled to the correct dimensions and offset by 30 degrees (are you counting? That's 12 holes in the hub). The 30 degree offset prevented the spinner from fitting. A third bolt circle was drilled with the correct dimensions and in the same alignment as the first and smaller bolt circle. The drill wandered. The third bolt circle had to then be drilled oversized, re-filled with epoxy and re-drilled to size. That's 18 holes in the same hub. I was assured by Warnke that this was structurally sound. Who was I to say?? I am not a prop manufacturer. My first takeoff was a near disaster. During static runup the prop achieved 2340 rpm, but it dropped to 2210 on roll out. The plane was reluctant to rotate. After rotation, the plane initially climbed out at a scary 100 fpm. Cruise speed was 150 kts - 5 kts less than my Great American. After two prop "tweakings" the cruise speed got to 155 kts - equal to but not greater than the Great American, and certainly far below the promised speed increase of 25 mph. As I recalled, the test was going to be - take my Great American off, and put her magic "Air Claw" on, and the improvement, with proper tweaking, would be dramatic. Didn't work that way. I had gained access to Warnke's physical worksite, and I thought our interactions had all been cordial and mutually educational. She, however, ended up blaming the less than dramatic performance of her prop on my "weak engine" and "draggy airframe". I, however, think that 155 kts TAS cruise with a Lyc O-235C1 and my old prop is not shabby for a "weak engine" and a "draggy airframe". In November, Warnke said she wanted "her" prop back and that she would return my money. I returned the prop and never received any refund. I finally had to take her to court over the money and won a full judgment against her on May 8, 2001 - more than a year after I first ordered the prop. It is unlikely that I will ever see a dime since I have no information as to where she banks or what her social security number is (any help here from the group??). She ordinarily deals with her customers through a Mail Box Etc. mailing address and a voice mail system. I will never again deal with a manufacturer who has an unlisted manufacturing site and an unlisted personal phone number and home address. Caveat emptor. Marc Borom LongEZ N966EZ Ryan Field Tucson, AZ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: canard-aviators-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Dragonflylist-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --------------9519F883F8718221A4F9CB85-- NetZero Platinum No Banner Ads and Unlimited Access Sign Up Today - Only $9.95 per month! http://www.netzero.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 22:11:38 -0500 To: "KRNet" From: "Robert Stone" Subject: Warnke Propellers Message-ID: <000a01c0da91$437db9c0$ebd8fea9@pavilion> ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0DA67.59CF0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Netters: Does anyone have the URL or E-Mail address for Warnke = propellers. =20 Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Texas rlspjs@dashlink.com ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0DA67.59CF0500-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 00:03:41 -0400 To: Robert Stone From: pjvisc@netzero.net CC: KRNet Subject: Re: KR> Warnke Propellers Message-ID: <3AFCB61D.5D58D4DE@netzero.net> Check the classified section in the back of Sport Aviation mag. Robert Stone wrote: > Netters: Does anyone have the URL or E-Mail address for Warnke propellers. > > Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Texas > rlspjs@dashlink.com NetZero Platinum No Banner Ads and Unlimited Access Sign Up Today - Only $9.95 per month! http://www.netzero.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 22:43:34 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Rick Human Subject: radio deal Message-id: <005101c0da95$b95dfa20$540cc1cf@compaq> ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01C0DA6B.CF62FA20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I stumbled on a website selling Microair radios at a very good price - = http://www.mcp.com.au/microair/index.htm an outfit in Australia named X-Air - short story I took the chance and = placed an order in about 9 days I had a brand new Microair radio in the = palm of my hand for $160 less than our friends at AS&S offer it for. = Give 'em a look.=20 Rick Human Houston, Texas http://home.swbell.net/rahuman/index.htm ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01C0DA6B.CF62FA20-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 07:37:09 -0500 To: "KR Net Response" From: "Jim Faughn" Subject: 30th Anniversary Message-ID: I was thinking that now was the time to start planning for the 30th anniversary for the KR. Some will remember that we did a 20th in 92 and the 25th in 97. I'm not up for the organization this time but I am planning on flying in to Oshkosh in 2002 even if I'm the only one. Both years we also had great KR Gatherings but there seems to be something special about doing something at Oshkosh. Bottom line is that if something is going to happen, somebody needs to step up and volunteer to organize it. It will take a lot of talking up and you will also want to try to contact all the completed KR's to get them interested. Well, enough of me saying what someone else might do. I also found that several more KR's got finished because it helped them refocus on completing. Just a new thought for a Saturday. By the way, I've finished the installation of my new ignition and testing on the ground. I think my plane is making more power than ever. I'll let you know more about how it is now flying - in other words new top speed - by the end of the weekend if the weather stays nice. Jim Faughn - N891JF 4323D Laclede Ave. St. Louis, MO 63108 (314)652-7659 Mailto:jfaughn@mvp.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 07:51:00 -0700 To: Bill McCraw From: "Ross R. Youngblood" CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: IRON KR Message-ID: <3AFD4DD4.AEAF2253@home.com> You have heard of IRON chiefs perhaps? This is IRON KR. Bill, I'm thinking that to make a truly Stout Spar, instead of drilling lightning holes in the spar, I should super glue some ball bearings that have been split down the middle to create "heavy" bumps down the length of the spar. Do you have anything like that in your scrap pile? -- Ross Bill McCraw wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ross R. Youngblood > To: HEATH, DANIEL R > Cc: 'Bill McCraw' ; > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 11:11 AM > Subject: Re: KR> KR Wing Foam > > > I think we should have a thread on using more Iron and Steel as it > > is stronger than aluminum and spruce. > > > > Perhaps someone could land their KR in a pool of plaster, then we > > could simply cast a KR out of Iron, It would be very strong, and > > not likely to need tiedowns in high winds. It would make a great > > sculpture. > > > > -- Ross > > > > "HEATH, DANIEL R" wrote: > > > > > Sure is easy to sand and why are all those KRs flying? > > > > > > Daniel R. Heath > > > DHeath@Scana.com > > > (803)217-9984 > > > > > > > Ross: Our company is tearing down an old factory and I thought my wife > said it was ok to bring the scrap iron home so I did but it turns out that > she doesn't like the huge pile on the front lawn. This stuff would make > great spars and other stuff and I have to move it quick . I can send pix and > you could chose a few choice pieces (you pay shipping) and they're yours . A > little paint and it'll look like new stuff ;o)) > > Waiting to hear from you, > Bill McCraw ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 12:01:04 -0400 To: From: "Bill McCraw" Cc: Subject: Re: KR> IRON KR Message-ID: <000801c0dafc$cc565e80$9f70e218@nimc1.on.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Ross R. Youngblood To: Bill McCraw Cc: Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 10:51 AM Subject: KR> IRON KR > You have heard of IRON chiefs perhaps? > > This is IRON KR. > > Bill, > I'm thinking that to make a truly Stout Spar, instead of drilling lightning > holes in the spar, I should super glue some ball bearings that have been > split down the middle to create "heavy" bumps down the length of the > spar. Do you have anything like that in your scrap pile? > > -- Ross > > Ross: Would some beams with rivet heads already installed work?? I mean really big heads ( abt 1 1/2" in dia and about 4" pitch) Will save the work of splitting all those bearings and avoid the chance of gluing yourself to the spar . Many sizes available just send your requirements . Some of this stuff is pretty thick but you should have no problem since you wanted stout Note: these parts will require scraping and painting before becoming anything near show quality. --Bill M ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 10:49:18 -0700 To: From: "Philip Heavirland" Subject: Old KR's Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C0DAD1.31CB4900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well here goes,I read someplace that the guy's at the church organ place,= orderd a set of plans and kit for the KR. Then proceeded to build it ,and= ,get this,in a few week's flew it.I didn't hear anything about weight and= balance delamination or any of that.If anybody live's near there,I would= like to know how It's holding up. Bye the way,I'm on yahoo and get all of net letter's ,keep it up.Pheavirl= and@msn.com
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at = http://explorer.msn.com

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C0DAD1.31CB4900-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 18:16:25 -0500 To: "Philip Heavirland" , From: ejanssen@chipsnet.com (Ed Janssen) Subject: Re: KR> Old KR's Message-ID: <000a01c0db39$91729bc0$020010ac@dad> Phil, Ya, well, it ain't holdin' up too good. They had an accident with it not too long after it was built. That was many years ago. It was one of the first plans built KR-2s. Hit a fence, bush line or something like that, I heard. Yes, they did build it in record time for sure. And it turned out looking real nice, too. I have some pictures of it around someplace, if you're interested. Ed Janssen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Heavirland" To: Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 12:49 PM Subject: KR> Old KR's Well here goes,I read someplace that the guy's at the church organ place,orderd a set of plans and kit for the KR. Then proceeded to build it ,and,get this,in a few week's flew it.I didn't hear anything about weight and balance delamination or any of that.If anybody live's near there,I would like to know how It's holding up. Bye the way,I'm on yahoo and get all of net letter's ,keep it up.Pheavirland@msn.com
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 14:21:48 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Using plastic in layups Message-ID: <008f01c0db18$ca83fec0$561cf618@600athlon> KRNetHeads, I've never seen much point in sandwiching glass between TWO layers of plastic. What does the top one do? Somebody asked for the process. Although I'm not an expert, I have built every single piece of one KR2S three times, so you could say I've built three planes. Here's what I do: Cut out a sheet of clear 4 mil builder's plastic (from Home Depot, etc), a little bigger than the anticipated layup, from a 10' by 100 foot roll. Take the plastic over to the plane and lay it where the glass is going to have to go. Mark the exact location of where the glass is going onto the plastic with a sharpie, and mark the plastic so you know which way is forward, and more importantly, which way is facing up. Lay the plastic out on the table, remembering that it's now going to go such that you can't read your previous writing (you're laying glass on the "underside", so it'll be backwards). Lay the glass out on the plastic, ensuring that you cover everything within the previously marked lines. Don't worry if it hangs over the edge of the marked Sharpie lines. If I'm going to use the 1.45 ounce deck cloth (which eliminates pinholes), I put it down first, between the plastic and the 5.85 ounce "real" glass. . Deck cloth is difficult to get straight once it's wet, which is why I put in in first and let the 5.85 ounce cloth hold it flat while I'm squeeging expoxy into both. Straighten the glass threads so that they are parallel to each other in straight lines, and perpendicular to the other threads in the BID. Pour just enough epoxy on it to wet it out, gradually. I pour it on in a zig-zag fashion (which will tack it down in those places and keep the glass from changing orientation) and immediately try to spread it as far as it will go. I use a little squeegee designed for spreading Bondo (Wicks sells a very nice one for about $3). I NEVER have to remove any excess, I always have to add a little more for the dry places. This puts an end to heavy layups. When the glass (or carbon fiber) is all wet out, cut along the Sharpie lines with scissors, which is made much easier by the plastic. If you are laying the glass up over foam, it's time to mix up micro slurry and prepare the surface, as quickly as possible, by squeegeeing runny micro into the foam pores. If you are laying up onto another cured layer (which really should have been done at the same time) squeegee a very thin layer of epoxy all over the surface. I wet the glass out first, since that takes longer than slurrying the foam, and if you let slurry sit too long on the foam, the micro may cure some and leave bumps and ridges that won't go away when you squeegee the glass into place. Carry the fabric over to the surface you are glassing, and the plastic will keep all the fibers oriented properly and will make positioning the glass simple, even if you are covering a wing with a huge piece of glass (another reason I don't use trash bags). Squeegee through the plastic to ensure that all the glass is where it should be, and in perfect contact. Peel away one corner of the plastcic at a sharp angle (back onto itself) and remove it, leaving the glass intact. Squeegee again to smooth everything over, and apply peel ply if you need to. I don't always use peelply, but when I don't I use the 1.45 ounce deckcloth. This doubles the cost of your layup, but you're saving on Smooth Prime pinhole filler further down the line, and more importantly, you're saving your time, by avoiding the pinhole filling step. If you let the glass cure with plastic in place, you'll have ridges in wrinkles that'll be difficult to remove, and will almost certainly be heavier due to excess epoxy, because you won't be able to use peelply. I learned the plastic trick from Jim Kerns of Task Research, who's been in the business as long as there's been a composites business. Some folks have problems mixing epoxy properly. It's pretty simple when you realize that you zero your digital scale with a cup on it, add as much part A as you think you'll need, noting the weight. If you are using Aeropoxy (1 to .28) and you have 62 grams of part A, just mulitply 62 x 1.28 and that'll give you 79.4 grams, so start pouring part B in until the scale reads 79 or 80 grams and start stirring! I think that one's a keeper... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 22:40:03 -0500 (CDT) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: shanspur@webtv.net (shannon spurgeon) Subject: polyfuse Message-ID: <4698-3AFE0213-2152@storefull-621.iap.bryant.webtv.net> HELLLLPPP!! I read something somewhere about a really neat product called polyfuse (I think), told a friend about it, and now can't find the article. Can any of you remember where it was? Thanks Shannon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 10:20:52 -0700 To: From: "Peter Johnson" Subject: Rolling and Tipping Message-ID: <006401c0dbd5$256b9b60$5da5e2d1@peter> ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C0DB96.634334A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In response to everyones gently nudging of me to get up off my tush and = finish with the description of rolling and tipping as a way to paint = your plane, I'm woking on it now! =20 I must say thought that the old adage "To teach is to learn twice.", is = coming into play here and I'm having to learn to present the technique. = This points out too the other adage, "There's a world of difference = between knowing how to do something, and knowing how to teach = something." In the interim, may I suggest to those who are curious, go to your = library and look under the boating section. Rolling and tipping is a = technique that's been in use in the marine industry for eons, and most = good books on the subject of building will describe it. After I do mail out my description, I will of course be available to = answer any questions anyone may have. Again in the interim, if anyone = has any questions now about the topic, please mail me and I'll be glad = to help you out as I can. Peter Johnson,=20 KR-2Sexy structurally complete, controls built, foaming well along, = corvair torn down. On the hunt for good retract ideas, and wheels. mailto:pjohnson@voyageur.ca ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C0DB96.634334A0-- ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************