From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 27 May 2001 14:19:26 -0000 Issue 230 Date: Sunday, May 27, 2001 7:19 AM krnet Digest 27 May 2001 14:19:26 -0000 Issue 230 Topics (messages 5509 through 5532): KR2 FOR SALE $2K or trade 5509 by: Schmidt, Curtis Re: Radio Call Sign ID 5510 by: Carson Cassidy 5514 by: Ross R. Youngblood 5517 by: Richard McCall Finally?? 5511 by: Rex T. Ellington Hapi engines 5512 by: Yves Lemelin 5515 by: Ross R. Youngblood wing attachment fittings 5513 by: bobby whisenant tapered wings (long) 5516 by: Oscar Zuniga 5518 by: BillStarrs 5521 by: Robert X. Cringely 5523 by: Ross R. Youngblood Sport Pilot Class 5519 by: ArtVanwinterswyke 5520 by: pjvisc.netzero.net Re: Using plastic in layups 5522 by: Ross R. Youngblood Re: My new plane 5524 by: Gaylon Fuller Virginia EAA Fly-in 5525 by: Donald Reid Atlantic Flight 5526 by: Patrick Driscoll 5528 by: w.g. kirkland KR-2S N169DB crashed, pilot and passenger died 5527 by: Tom Andersen KR Gathering 5529 by: ArtVanwinterswyke N169DB or N197DB ? 5530 by: Frank Ross Re: KR Gathering 2001 5531 by: Frank Ross Re: Attachments 5532 by: RONALD.FREIBERGER Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 May 2001 10:28:00 -0700 To: "KR NET (E-mail)" From: "Schmidt, Curtis" Subject: KR2 FOR SALE $2K or trade Message-ID: <000931E8@kaydon.com> Hey guys: I am located in central Kansas and you can call during the day at (620) 792= -4368 ext.427 or evenings at (620) 285-7269. You can also e-mail me (prefer= red) at cschmidt@kaydon.com To see pictures go to http://kr2s.bouyea.net/kr= net and click on the classified section. If you are in the Larned Kansas ar= ea, please feel free to stop and have a look. FOR SALE Rand Robinson KR-2 (standard) (Fuselage) All wood work complete. Horizontal and vertical stabs built, glassed and installed. Rear turtle deck on and glassed. Canopy partially complete. Sitting on custom built gear with mechanical brakes. (some pictures show retracts, they are not in the airplane anymore but do g= o with the project) Custom heavy-duty dual sticks. Fiberglass seats Center spars installed Aileron bell cranks built and installed. All control cables installed. (Wing) Spars complete with wing attach fittings in place. Center section ribs cut out and ready to install No foam work done on the wings. (Engine)One complete stock VW type-4 2 liter. One partial VW type-4 with a good 78 mm stroke crank. 2 sets of used heads All engine parts not yet converted for aircraft use. Price is @ $2000.00 negotiable! Will trade for MiniMax "MAX 103" or similar project. Curtis Schmidt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 09:37:52 -0600 To: rossy65@home.com From: Carson Cassidy CC: "krnet@mailinglists.org" , "corvaircraft@usm.edu" Subject: Re: Radio Call Sign ID Message-ID: <3B0E7C50.C99968B0@home.com> Ross Good info for us from Canada. But, up here Air Traffic Control doesn't differentiate on speeds. All experimental aircraft are designated "homebuilt" or HMBD on the radar. I rather like the way the FAA does it. As a controller it certainly makes a whole lot a difference to me if an aircraft can do 200kts or only 100, especially when I've got a B767 chasing him. Carson Cassidy Calgary, Alberta "Ross R. Youngblood" wrote: > > The proper identification is not "homebult" but "Experimental" > when you are making your radio calls. > For me (N541RY) it will be "Phoenix Approach Experimental 541 Romeo Yankee, Request" > > If they ask what "type" of aircraft, I think they are primarily interested in airspeed for spacing > reasons. If you have a Glasair, or Lancair, it might be popular enough so they know you are > fast. The FAA actually has a designation for various speed ranges of homebuilts. > > I looked this up on DUATS once. > > HXA = Unkown Homebult/Experimental Speed < 100kts > HXB = Unkown Homebult/Experimental Speed 100-200kts > HXC = Unkown Homebult/Experimental Speed > 200kts > > This is what you would put in the "TYPE" field of a VFR or IFR flight plan, > so when they ask for type, I would specify the HX[ABC] value and give them > your rough cruise speed, just in case they haven't tried entering HXABC. I > would guess that if they enter HXA/B/C into the ARTCC system it will take > it, but I don't know for sure. > > They reorderd these numbers... For example a Piper Warrior used to be a PA28, but now > it is a P28A. I was flying back from Sedona last month, and a flying club member was in > the Piper Pathfinder... this is a Piper Cherokee with tip tanks and 235Hp, so it is a Cherokee > on steriods... the pilot didn't know what the "designation" was, it turns out it is a P28B. > > You can look this stuff up on the DUAT's website, or the AOPA flight planning website, > just pretend you are going to file a flight plan and click on the "TYPE" link above the > aircraft type box on the form. > > -- Ross > > -- Ross > Carson Cassidy wrote:Pond > > > > > It's normally always a good idea to give your type of aircraft with > > initial call. A lot of controllers don't have a clue about different > > types of homebuilts so use the term "homebuilt" rather than Taylor. > > Other than that they will treat your like anyone else (good or bad > > depending on their mood). I'm just kidding, hopefully it's always > > good. Stop and say hello if you get out west. > > > > Carson > > > > POND CARTER wrote: > > > > > > HI Carson > > > Quick question. > > > what do controls what me to say when I call in when in bound for landing > > > with a home built. > > > I will be flying a Taylor Mono Plane. Do I need to say ameture built? > > > Thanks Darren in Ontario > > > I hope to fly west this summer is my bird will fly. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:39:46 -0700 To: Carson Cassidy From: "Ross R. Youngblood" CC: "krnet@mailinglists.org" , "corvaircraft@usm.edu" Subject: Re: Radio Call Sign ID Message-ID: <3B0EDF32.D73C299F@home.com> Carson, I apologize... as an arrogant American, I often forget that we are an International group of KR enthusiasts. I should preface my remarks with "In the US we..." -- Thanks! Ross Carson Cassidy wrote: > Ross > > Good info for us from Canada. But, up here Air Traffic Control doesn't > differentiate on speeds. All experimental aircraft are designated > "homebuilt" or HMBD on the radar. I rather like the way the FAA does > it. As a controller it certainly makes a whole lot a difference to me > if an aircraft can do 200kts or only 100, especially when I've got a > B767 chasing him. > > Carson Cassidy > Calgary, Alberta > > "Ross R. Youngblood" wrote: > > > > The proper identification is not "homebult" but "Experimental" > > when you are making your radio calls. > > For me (N541RY) it will be "Phoenix Approach Experimental 541 Romeo Yankee, Request" > > > > If they ask what "type" of aircraft, I think they are primarily interested in airspeed for spacing > > reasons. If you have a Glasair, or Lancair, it might be popular enough so they know you are > > fast. The FAA actually has a designation for various speed ranges of homebuilts. > > > > I looked this up on DUATS once. > > > > HXA = Unkown Homebult/Experimental Speed < 100kts > > HXB = Unkown Homebult/Experimental Speed 100-200kts > > HXC = Unkown Homebult/Experimental Speed > 200kts > > > > This is what you would put in the "TYPE" field of a VFR or IFR flight plan, > > so when they ask for type, I would specify the HX[ABC] value and give them > > your rough cruise speed, just in case they haven't tried entering HXABC. I > > would guess that if they enter HXA/B/C into the ARTCC system it will take > > it, but I don't know for sure. > > > > They reorderd these numbers... For example a Piper Warrior used to be a PA28, but now > > it is a P28A. I was flying back from Sedona last month, and a flying club member was in > > the Piper Pathfinder... this is a Piper Cherokee with tip tanks and 235Hp, so it is a Cherokee > > on steriods... the pilot didn't know what the "designation" was, it turns out it is a P28B. > > > > You can look this stuff up on the DUAT's website, or the AOPA flight planning website, > > just pretend you are going to file a flight plan and click on the "TYPE" link above the > > aircraft type box on the form. > > > > -- Ross > > > > -- Ross > > Carson Cassidy wrote:Pond > > > > > > > > It's normally always a good idea to give your type of aircraft with > > > initial call. A lot of controllers don't have a clue about different > > > types of homebuilts so use the term "homebuilt" rather than Taylor. > > > Other than that they will treat your like anyone else (good or bad > > > depending on their mood). I'm just kidding, hopefully it's always > > > good. Stop and say hello if you get out west. > > > > > > Carson > > > > > > POND CARTER wrote: > > > > > > > > HI Carson > > > > Quick question. > > > > what do controls what me to say when I call in when in bound for landing > > > > with a home built. > > > > I will be flying a Taylor Mono Plane. Do I need to say ameture built? > > > > Thanks Darren in Ontario > > > > I hope to fly west this summer is my bird will fly. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 20:38:54 -0700 (PDT) To: rossy65@home.com, Carson Cassidy From: Richard McCall Cc: "krnet@mailinglists.org" , "corvaircraft@usm.edu" Subject: Re: KR> Re: Radio Call Sign ID Message-ID: <20010526033854.53422.qmail@web11406.mail.yahoo.com> Still in all, its nice to hear what the other fellow is having to do in our international club. having flown some of these countries, I find it especially interesting! Little things like, Goosebay will not clear an international flight over water unless the pilot and co-pilot have attended their course on Atlantic crossings become important (I have the iceburgs of Greenland on video ... then the batteries ran out). Anyone for flying a KR over the Atlantic? AOPA has a complete briefing with charts. Maybe we can start with a test flight to Canada first (must have the "over spare territory" survival kit on board) crossing into Canada. Thanks to our many international members out there! Rich --- "Ross R. Youngblood" wrote: > Carson, > I apologize... as an arrogant American, I often > forget that we > are an International group of KR enthusiasts. I > should preface > my remarks with "In the US we..." > > -- Thanks! > > Ross > > Carson Cassidy wrote: > > > Ross > > > > Good info for us from Canada. But, up here Air > Traffic Control doesn't > > differentiate on speeds. All experimental > aircraft are designated > > "homebuilt" or HMBD on the radar. I rather like > the way the FAA does > > it. As a controller it certainly makes a whole > lot a difference to me > > if an aircraft can do 200kts or only 100, > especially when I've got a > > B767 chasing him. > > > > Carson Cassidy > > Calgary, Alberta > > > > "Ross R. Youngblood" wrote: > > > > > > The proper identification is not "homebult" but > "Experimental" > > > when you are making your radio calls. > > > For me (N541RY) it will be "Phoenix Approach > Experimental 541 Romeo Yankee, Request" > > > > > > If they ask what "type" of aircraft, I think > they are primarily interested in airspeed for > spacing > > > reasons. If you have a Glasair, or Lancair, it > might be popular enough so they know you are > > > fast. The FAA actually has a designation for > various speed ranges of homebuilts. > > > > > > I looked this up on DUATS once. > > > > > > HXA = Unkown Homebult/Experimental Speed < > 100kts > > > HXB = Unkown Homebult/Experimental Speed > 100-200kts > > > HXC = Unkown Homebult/Experimental Speed > > 200kts > > > > > > This is what you would put in the "TYPE" field > of a VFR or IFR flight plan, > > > so when they ask for type, I would specify the > HX[ABC] value and give them > > > your rough cruise speed, just in case they > haven't tried entering HXABC. I > > > would guess that if they enter HXA/B/C into the > ARTCC system it will take > > > it, but I don't know for sure. > > > > > > They reorderd these numbers... For example a > Piper Warrior used to be a PA28, but now > > > it is a P28A. I was flying back from Sedona > last month, and a flying club member was in > > > the Piper Pathfinder... this is a Piper Cherokee > with tip tanks and 235Hp, so it is a Cherokee > > > on steriods... the pilot didn't know what the > "designation" was, it turns out it is a P28B. > > > > > > You can look this stuff up on the DUAT's > website, or the AOPA flight planning website, > > > just pretend you are going to file a flight plan > and click on the "TYPE" link above the > > > aircraft type box on the form. > > > > > > -- Ross > > > > > > -- Ross > > > Carson Cassidy wrote:Pond > > > > > > > > > > > It's normally always a good idea to give your > type of aircraft with > > > > initial call. A lot of controllers don't have > a clue about different > > > > types of homebuilts so use the term > "homebuilt" rather than Taylor. > > > > Other than that they will treat your like > anyone else (good or bad > > > > depending on their mood). I'm just kidding, > hopefully it's always > > > > good. Stop and say hello if you get out west. > > > > > > > > Carson > > > > > > > > POND CARTER wrote: > > > > > > > > > > HI Carson > > > > > Quick question. > > > > > what do controls what me to say when I call > in when in bound for landing > > > > > with a home built. > > > > > I will be flying a Taylor Mono Plane. Do I > need to say ameture built? > > > > > Thanks Darren in Ontario > > > > > I hope to fly west this summer is my bird > will fly. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To post to the list, email: > krnet@mailinglists.org > > > > > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: > krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: > krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: > krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ===== Richard McCall Trophy Club, TX KR2SXL Builder w/Subaru 2.2L planecrafter76262@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:43:48 -0500 To: krnet From: "Rex T. Ellington" Subject: Finally?? Message-ID: <3B0EB5F3.7ECB791F@telepath.com> Hi toall- We took a break for a few days to go to Santa Fe and do some shopping as well as to visit the very unusual Santa Fe Institute - The home of much of the important work on Complexity and Chaos. Last Sat. morning driving East from Raton, I saw something I haven't seen for years. In the first sixty miles I counted at least two hundred antelope within easy sight of the highway. Quite a few were less than a hundred yards from the fence. I haven't seen that since the Powder River Basin, WY years ago. Sunday: Took about three hours to lay out and mark locations for top longerons and cross members on two sheets of particle board laying on garage floor. {Did this to save time of erecting a work table and kicking a car (mine) out of the garage. Doesn't influence construction because this gives me a flat plane, and slight tilt toward door does not enter into job.Further, only right angles relative to this plane are involved.} I'm building my fuselage upside down, and with vertical sides. Therefore, the top longerons define the waterline fore and aft, and side to side. I capped a piece of PVC, filled it with water, and put the longerons and doublers in it to soak. Purpose is to minimize locked-in stress when they are formed and glued. Then, after forming and drying, these will be glued, and cross members will be glued in. In the meantime, the lower longerons will be soaking. At same time, I will be setting and aligning side vertical members and bottom cross members with scrap plywood. Then, I can fit the bottom longerons, let them dry, glue them, and fit the various diagonals. One task for this weekend is to take a big piece of cardboard out to the airport and cut it to fit the centerline profile of a spamcan windshield. Hope it can be fitted to nice contour for turtledeck by trimming skirts along sides. Think it will be cheaper and thicker than KR or Dragonfly canopies. Must soon face up to guessing whether fire wall needs to be moved forward because of making hershey bar horizontal stab. Offsetting moment arm from tricycle gear and GPA rear-facing Type 4 engine may more than offset it. Will also start tracing and cutting ribs for H. stab, cutting spars, and forming new noserib/front spar. All for now. Rex Ellington Norman OK ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:43:09 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Yves Lemelin Subject: Hapi engines Message-ID: <3B0ED1ED.F2CD2A99@sympatico.ca> Hi guys, Could any of you netters be kind enough to put me in contact with Rex Tailor or is son Patrick. As i understand, they are the guys who built my engine and should be my best chance at finding a source for replacement parts... Thanks! Yves. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:42:56 -0700 To: Yves Lemelin From: "Ross R. Youngblood" CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Hapi engines Message-ID: <3B0EDFF0.DE49F5A3@home.com> Yves, I belive Mosler engines bought HAPI engines from Rex, then they had some financial difficulties. You may be able to get some help from Steve Bennett at Great Planes Aircraft. Yves Lemelin wrote: > Hi guys, > > Could any of you netters be kind enough to put me in contact with Rex Tailor > or is son Patrick. As i understand, they are the guys who built my engine and > should be my best chance at finding a source for replacement parts... > > Thanks! > > Yves. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:14:25 -0700 (PDT) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: bobby whisenant Subject: wing attachment fittings Message-ID: <19317613.990828865653.JavaMail.imail@prickles> Has any one made w.a.f using a drillpress and some sort of jig. _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 03:02:52 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: tapered wings (long) Message-ID: Hello again, netters; Again to clear the air before I get started, this post is not about the AS50xx-series wing; it applies to the stock wing as well. There was a question posted some weeks ago about "why tapered wings"? I have been thinking about that one for several reasons. Mike Mims may have hit it exactly right (his "Sky Pig" KR-2S derivative has/had straight wings with no taper in planform). Hundreds (thousands?) of Van's RVs are out there, also with non-tapered wings, cruising plenty fast. The motivations for looking at "Hershey-bar" wings are several, not the least of which is that it's far easier to build a straight wing than a tapered one. So I dug back into Vol. 1, File No. 3 of EAA "Aircraft- Design", to an article by John Thorp (EAA #1212) entitled "Tapered Wings are for Birds... And Very Large Airplanes". I think you get the drift of what Mr. Thorp's conclusions are, but for those who are interested, following are some excerpts. The bottom line is that it may be possible to build a simpler wing on the KR, with just as good stall characteristics and lift, and perhaps lower drag... using the RAF48 or any other airfoil. Mr. Thorp is, of course, the designer of the Thorp T-18, a very successful homebuilt design. His article was general, and in no way specific to the KR or to any other homebuilt. So here are some snips: "I am... sure that tapered wings should not be used on little airplanes- those of a size buildable by amateurs" "Why then are tapered wings so frequently used by amateur and professional builders alike? ...it is known that the decision was based upon purely aesthetic reasons, even at a recognized cost penalty." "...weight saving by greater structural efficiency through tapering is small, even if the wing area is the same, tapered or rectangular. Aerodynamic scale effect makes it possible to use a smaller rectangular wing for a given stalling speed, thus the tapered wing loses its small theoretical weight advantage." "A moderately tapered wing has somewhat lower tip section Reynolds number and maximum lift coefficient than the root, while a rectangular wing has a constant Reynolds number and essentially the same maximum section lift coefficient all along the span. Wing stall starts where some section along the span first reaches its maximum section lift coefficient. A tapered wing because of Reynolds number tends to stall at the tip first, while a rectangular wing tends to stall at the center of the span because of Reynolds number and span-wise load distribution." "The loss of lateral control associated with tip stall is obvious, and many small airplanes with tapered wings have exhibited violently bad rolling tendencies at stall." "The tip-stall problem of small tapered wings can be solved by... wing twist (decreased incidence at the wing tips). Wings may be twisted so that the tip section is at a low enough angle of attack as to not stall when the root section gets to its maximum angle of attack. this means that the whole wing lifts less and more area will be required for a given stalling speed than if a rectangular wing is used." And the bottom line: "On small airplanes designed for a given stalling speed and stalling acceptability the airplane with the rectangular wing will have less wing area, therefore less wing drag, and will go faster on a given power. It will also be much simpler for the amateur to build." Isn't this what we're trying to optimize? Someone commented that perhaps part of the reason for the "Huey effect" of a KR cruising trimmed slightly nose-down while in level full-speed cruise is an indication that it has a bit more wing area (lift) than it needs. Now if we could optimize the wing area, make the wing rectangular in planform, take out the wing twist to make the whole wing work equally, and get the tail rigged right so it will cruise level at fast cruise- plus make the wing easier to build- ain't it worth looking at? Hey, it's open line Friday, so don't be too hard on me ;o) Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.geocities.com/taildrags/ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 20:44:01 -0700 To: "Oscar Zuniga" , "KR-net" From: "BillStarrs" Subject: Re: KR> tapered wings (long) Message-ID: <001d01c0e596$403d7b00$400b2aa2@starrs> Oscar, The reason the KR and for that fact all planes cruse faster in a slightly nose down attitude is the Angle of incidence. If you have a # degree A/I with no wash out at the tip fly 3 Degrees below the horizon for maximum speed.Bill Starrs, Prescott, AZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" To: Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 3:02 AM Subject: KR> tapered wings (long) > Hello again, netters; > > to clear the air before I get started, this post is not about the > AS50xx-series wing; it applies to the stock wing as well. > > There was a question posted some weeks ago about "why tapered wings"? I > have been thinking about that one for several reasons. Mike Mims may have > hit it exactly right (his "Sky Pig" KR-2S derivative has/had straight wings > with no taper in platform). Hundreds (thousands?) of Van's RVs are out > there, also with non-tapered wings, cruising plenty fast. The motivations > for looking at "Hershey-bar" wings are several, not the least of which is > that it's far easier to build a straight wing than a tapered one. > > So I dug back into Vol. 1, File No. 3 of EAA "Aircraft- Design", to an > article by John Thorp (EAA #1212) entitled "Tapered Wings are for Birds... > And Very Large Airplanes". I think you get the drift of what Mr. Thorp's > conclusions are, but for those who are interested, following are some > excerpts. The bottom line is that it may be possible to build a simpler > wing on the KR, with just as good stall characteristics and lift, and > perhaps lower drag... using the RAF48 or any other airfoil. Mr. Thorp is, > of course, the designer of the Thorp T-18, a very successful homebuilt > design. His article was general, and in no way specific to the KR or to any > other homebuilt. So here are some snips: > > "I am... sure that tapered wings should not be used on little airplanes- > those of a size buildable by amateurs" > > "Why then are tapered wings so frequently used by amateur and professional > builders alike? ...it is known that the decision was based upon purely > aesthetic reasons, even at a recognized cost penalty." > > "...weight saving by greater structural efficiency through tapering is > small, even if the wing area is the same, tapered or rectangular. > Aerodynamic scale effect makes it possible to use a smaller rectangular wing > for a given stalling speed, thus the tapered wing loses its small > theoretical weight advantage." > > "A moderately tapered wing has somewhat lower tip section Reynolds number > and maximum lift coefficient than the root, while a rectangular wing has a > constant Reynolds number and essentially the same maximum section lift > coefficient all along the span. Wing stall starts where some section along > the span first reaches its maximum section lift coefficient. A tapered wing > because of Reynolds number tends to stall at the tip first, while a > rectangular wing tends to stall at the center of the span because of > Reynolds number and span-wise load distribution." > > "The loss of lateral control associated with tip stall is obvious, and many > small airplanes with tapered wings have exhibited violently bad rolling > tendencies at stall." > > "The tip-stall problem of small tapered wings can be solved by... wing twist > (decreased incidence at the wing tips). Wings may be twisted so that the > tip section is at a low enough angle of attack as to not stall when the root > section gets to its maximum angle of attack. this means that the whole wing > lifts less and more area will be required for a given stalling speed than if > a rectangular wing is used." > > And the bottom line: > > "On small airplanes designed for a given stalling speed and stalling > acceptability the airplane with the rectangular wing will have less wing > area, therefore less wing drag, and will go faster on a given power. It > will also be much simpler for the amateur to build." > > Isn't this what we're trying to optimize? Someone commented that perhaps > part of the reason for the "Huey effect" of a KR cruising trimmed slightly > nose-down while in level full-speed cruise is an indication that it has a > bit more wing area (lift) than it needs. Now if we could optimize the wing > area, make the wing rectangular in planform, take out the wing twist to make > the whole wing work equally, and get the tail rigged right so it will cruise > level at fast cruise- plus make the wing easier to build- ain't it worth > looking at? > > Hey, it's open line Friday, so don't be too hard on me ;o) > > Oscar Zuniga > Medford, Oregon > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.geocities.com/taildrags/ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 21:15:54 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Robert X. Cringely" Subject: Re: KR> tapered wings (long) Message-Id: Back in the 1960's I built a pair of T-18's with my father and met Johnny Thorp at that time. My building partner for the last 15 years or so was one of Johnny's favorite students at the Boeing School of Aeronautics at Oakland Airport in 1935-37, so I had a chance to keep in touch with Johnny right up until his death a few years ago. As a part of that relationship I actually had a couple arguments with Johnny about just this subject. Johnny liked straight wings because they were easier to build and because they stalled from the middle of the wing, not from the tips like he believed tapered wings did. Notice I wrote "...like he believed...." Subsequent research has shown that the NACA test results Johnny relied on were IN ERROR. I believe Henry Riblett has written about this in his book on GA airfoils. Both straight and tapered wings, if built correctly, will stall LAST at the tips, according to Riblett. So which is better, straight or tapered? It doesn't really matter much unless you are trying to eeck out that last little bit of drag savings from an elliptical wing. On a KR it doesn't make much difference at all. But something else DOES make a difference -- that wing twist. Washing out the tips is pointless if the tips stall last anyway. All it means is that most of the time large parts of the wing are running at the wrong lift coefficient creating greater drag. Now I have a Glasair in addition to a KR-1. The Glasair wing has a GAW-2 airfoil, a tapered planform, and NO TWIST AT ALL. In the original design (mine is #102 so I know about these things) Tom Hamilton counted on inboard stall strips to make the wing stall "correctly" -- that is, tips last. This would allow him to go without washout and the computer simulations Tom's brother ran at Boeing said the plane would be 3-5 mph faster as a result. When I read Riblett's book I thought "What the heck" and immediately went to the airport and ground the stall strips off my Glasair wing. Subsequent stall testing showed that, for the Glasair at least, Riblett was correct. My plane stalled straight ahead with the strips and it stalled straight ahead without them. BUT IT ALSO STALLED 5 MPH SLOWER. That let me take 7 mph off my approach speed and 150 feet off my landing run. What this means for a KR is that you can build it straight or tapered. But whichever way you build it, GET RID OF THAT TWIST. The hot set-up in my mind might well be a tapered RAF-48 wing without twist set at zero degrees incidence and combined with that nifty NACA009 horizontal stabilizer. All the best, Bob >Hello again, netters; > >Again to clear the air before I get started, this post is not about >the AS50xx-series wing; it applies to the stock wing as well. > >There was a question posted some weeks ago about "why tapered >wings"? I have been thinking about that one for several reasons. >Mike Mims may have hit it exactly right (his "Sky Pig" KR-2S >derivative has/had straight wings with no taper in planform). >Hundreds (thousands?) of Van's RVs are out there, also with >non-tapered wings, cruising plenty fast. The motivations for >looking at "Hershey-bar" wings are several, not the least of which >is that it's far easier to build a straight wing than a tapered one. > >So I dug back into Vol. 1, File No. 3 of EAA "Aircraft- Design", to >an article by John Thorp (EAA #1212) entitled "Tapered Wings are for >Birds... And Very Large Airplanes". I think you get the drift of >what Mr. Thorp's conclusions are, but for those who are interested, >following are some excerpts. The bottom line is that it may be >possible to build a simpler wing on the KR, with just as good stall >characteristics and lift, and perhaps lower drag... using the RAF48 >or any other airfoil. Mr. Thorp is, of course, the designer of the >Thorp T-18, a very successful homebuilt design. His article was >general, and in no way specific to the KR or to any other homebuilt. >So here are some snips: > >"I am... sure that tapered wings should not be used on little >airplanes- those of a size buildable by amateurs" > >"Why then are tapered wings so frequently used by amateur and >professional builders alike? ...it is known that the decision was >based upon purely aesthetic reasons, even at a recognized cost >penalty." > >"...weight saving by greater structural efficiency through tapering >is small, even if the wing area is the same, tapered or rectangular. >Aerodynamic scale effect makes it possible to use a smaller >rectangular wing for a given stalling speed, thus the tapered wing >loses its small theoretical weight advantage." > >"A moderately tapered wing has somewhat lower tip section Reynolds >number and maximum lift coefficient than the root, while a >rectangular wing has a constant Reynolds number and essentially the >same maximum section lift coefficient all along the span. Wing >stall starts where some section along the span first reaches its >maximum section lift coefficient. A tapered wing because of >Reynolds number tends to stall at the tip first, while a rectangular >wing tends to stall at the center of the span because of Reynolds >number and span-wise load distribution." > >"The loss of lateral control associated with tip stall is obvious, >and many small airplanes with tapered wings have exhibited violently >bad rolling tendencies at stall." > >"The tip-stall problem of small tapered wings can be solved by... >wing twist (decreased incidence at the wing tips). Wings may be >twisted so that the tip section is at a low enough angle of attack >as to not stall when the root section gets to its maximum angle of >attack. this means that the whole wing lifts less and more area >will be required for a given stalling speed than if a rectangular >wing is used." > >And the bottom line: > >"On small airplanes designed for a given stalling speed and stalling >acceptability the airplane with the rectangular wing will have less >wing area, therefore less wing drag, and will go faster on a given >power. It will also be much simpler for the amateur to build." > >Isn't this what we're trying to optimize? Someone commented that >perhaps part of the reason for the "Huey effect" of a KR cruising >trimmed slightly nose-down while in level full-speed cruise is an >indication that it has a bit more wing area (lift) than it needs. >Now if we could optimize the wing area, make the wing rectangular in >planform, take out the wing twist to make the whole wing work >equally, and get the tail rigged right so it will cruise level at >fast cruise- plus make the wing easier to build- ain't it worth >looking at? > >Hey, it's open line Friday, so don't be too hard on me ;o) > >Oscar Zuniga >Medford, Oregon >mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com >website at http://www.geocities.com/taildrags/ > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org -- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:05:32 -0700 To: "Robert X. Cringely" From: Ross Youngblood CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> tapered wings (long) Message-ID: <3B0ED72C.4DF95645@home.com> Bob, A terrific discussion of wing twist and it's impact on the stall. Hmmm, perhaps I will build another set of wings someday. Maybe I will use the new airfoil, and no twist. Actually, I have this crazy idea to build a scaled down model of either a DC-3 or a China Clipper and use 2 or 4 Chevy V-6 or VW engines. At the moment.... I need to finish my KR, and decide if I'm up to the task of doing a project like that. I'm thinking the plane should look "real" from a distance then give folks a double take when it turns out to be a two seater from up close. -- Ross > What this means for a KR is that you can build it straight or > tapered. But whichever way you build it, GET RID OF THAT TWIST. The > hot set-up in my mind might well be a tapered RAF-48 wing without > twist set at zero degrees incidence and combined with that nifty > NACA009 horizontal stabilizer. > > All the best, > > Bob > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 20:36:21 -0700 To: From: "ArtVanwinterswyke" Subject: Sport Pilot Class Message-ID: <002001c0c7b8$bfb9ab20$d900a8c0@main> ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C0C77E.0FC131A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, Can anyone tell me if the KR-2 will qualify for the Sport Pilots Class. Also, what are the dates for the KR Gethering? Thanks much = Art VanWinterswyk avanwinter@sport.rr.com ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C0C77E.0FC131A0-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 00:16:04 -0400 To: ArtVanwinterswyke From: pjvisc@netzero.net CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Sport Pilot Class Message-ID: <3B0F2E04.2DCBA845@netzero.net> Art, I just received your E-mail and it was dated April 17, 2001. Are you in a different time dimension, or am I ??? Phil Visconti ArtVanwinterswyke wrote: > Hi All, > Can anyone tell me if the KR-2 will qualify for the Sport Pilots Class. > Also, what are the dates for the KR Gethering? Thanks much Art VanWinterswyk > avanwinter@sport.rr.com NetZero Platinum No Banner Ads and Unlimited Access Sign Up Today - Only $9.95 per month! http://www.netzero.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:00:35 -0700 To: Mark Langford From: Ross Youngblood CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Using plastic in layups Message-ID: <3B0ED603.72F33FD2@home.com> This is an old message... I thought I would reply to. Mark Langford wrote: > > KRNetHeads, > > I've never seen much point in sandwiching glass between TWO layers of > plastic. What does the top one do? The top layer of plastic is only used for wetting out the cloth with the fiberglass in the middle. Once the cloth is wetted out, you remove the bottom layer, then you can position the glass with the top layer of plastic, once the glass is in position, you remove the top layer as well, and finish stippling the glass. -- Ross ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 09:11:32 -0600 To: From: "Gaylon Fuller" Subject: Fw: My new plane Message-ID: <003701c0e5f6$265e3e80$252ee0d0@oemcomputer> ----- Original Message ----- From: Gaylon Fuller To: Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 9:02 AM Subject: My new plane > > > Hey net, > > I just became the proud papa of a 1974 VP2. It is going to be a restore > job, but for what I have in it I could not go wrong. Now I have two > projects going. The KR1 1/2 and the VP2. The VP should be a fairly short > rebuild, no more than 2 or 3 years :o) It has a 65 HP VW according to the > placard. But I don't know what the displacement is yet. It has a Wico > brand mag (never heard of it) and a down draft carb. I wish I would have > kept the KR2 canopy I had that Frank Ross bought :o( , but I think I might > fly it open for a while, I here its a hoot. There is a VP2 with a Corvair > hanging on the front that I have seen. Now would that be fun or what! > > > L8R > > > Gaylon > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 15:45:32 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Donald Reid Subject: Virginia EAA Fly-in Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010526153928.00a08ec0@pop.erols.com> --=====================_16205823==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed There are two weeks until the 5th Annual Virginia State EAA fly-in. Last year we had one KR there. This year I certainly hope that we can get a few more. At this year's fly-in, Exxon is giving away a case of aviation oil to every plane that flies in while supplies last. They are supplying over 500 cases (6 pallets) so there should be enough to go around. Details can be found at http://vaeaa.org. I will be the fly market coordinator this year. Please stop by and introduce yourself. Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com Bumpass, Va Visit my web sites at: KR2XL construction: http://users.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Aviation Surplus: http://users.erols.com/donreid/Airparts.htm EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org Ultralights: http://usua250.org VA EAA State Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org --=====================_16205823==_.ALT-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 16:55:55 -0700 (PDT) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Patrick Driscoll Subject: Atlantic Flight Message-ID: <20010526235555.1762.qmail@web14105.mail.yahoo.com> There was a fellow at Osh'k about 1980 that had a tri-gear with flaps, KR2 that was going to fly it to Switzerland. He had dual flight instruments on board because he said that Swiss law said he had to have them. I always wondered which one would you believe in if they had different readings. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 00:25:55 -0400 To: "Patrick Driscoll" , From: "w.g. kirkland" Subject: Re: KR> Atlantic Flight Message-ID: <005301c0e665$200d45c0$c0905bd1@kirkland> Old chinese saying. mAN WITH ONE WATCH KNOWS WHAT TIME IT IS. MAN WITH TWO WATCHES IS NEVER SURE. W.G.(Bill) KIRKLAND kirkland@vianet.on.ca ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Driscoll" To: Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 7:55 PM Subject: KR> Atlantic Flight > > There was a fellow at Osh'k about 1980 that had a > tri-gear with flaps, KR2 that was going to fly it to > Switzerland. He had dual flight instruments on board > because he said that Swiss law said he had to have > them. I always wondered which one would you believe in > if they had different readings. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 00:08:32 -0400 To: From: "Tom Andersen" Subject: KR-2S N169DB crashed, pilot and passenger died Message-ID: <003c01c0e662$b1708a20$1c631a42@triad.rr.com> Fellow Netters, It is with sadness that I relay this message I received from Neal, who was a friend of Kenny James, the man who bought N169DB, a KR-2S that was built in Florida. Send your condolences to neal@nealhoward.net. Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 11:17 PM Subject: N197DB crashed, 2 dead. Hello Tom, I'm informing everyone I can find on the Internet who had known N197DB, that my friend Kenny James died in it yesterday along with a passenger. The investigation results have not been released yet but looks like he lost the engine shortly after takeoff and tried to turn around to return to the airport. Looks like he got too slow and spun it into the ground. The airplane was completely busted up into tiny fragments. I'll be going to help pick up the pieces tomorrow morning now that the FAA and NTSB are done with the crash site. If you are still building a KR-2S for yourself, or have built it already, please be very very very very very careful in it. If you ever have a forced landing in one, keep your airspeed up and if low, pick a spot straight ahead to land in, don't try to turn it much without sufficient altitude in a deadstick glide. Also note that the added weight of a passenger on board probably greatly raises the stall speed, especially in a turn :-(. peace, Neal Howard (Wichita Falls, TX) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 06:30:05 -0700 To: From: "ArtVanwinterswyke" Subject: KR Gathering Message-ID: <001801c0e6b1$2463e420$d900a8c0@main> ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C0E676.779114A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HI All, Is anyone going to 2001 KR Gathering? If so, could someone please tell = me the dates, I have not been able to find out. Thanks Art VanWinterswyk avanwinter@sport.rr.com ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C0E676.779114A0-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 07:06:06 -0700 (PDT) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Frank Ross Subject: N169DB or N197DB ? Message-ID: <20010527140606.26842.qmail@web4705.mail.yahoo.com> Tom, Can you clarify if it was N169DB or N197DB that crashed? Thank you. ===== Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 07:13:30 -0700 (PDT) To: ArtVanwinterswyke , krnet@mailinglists.org From: Frank Ross Subject: Re: KR> KR Gathering 2001 Message-ID: <20010527141330.25917.qmail@web4701.mail.yahoo.com> Art, Others, You can get almost anything anyone would want on KRs at Mark Langford's excellent KR site at: http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford/kr2s.html INCLUDING information on the Gathering 2001. I copied this to save you a little time. The "Official" 2001 KR Gathering will be in Pine Bluff, Arkansas, September 21-23 with Tommy Waymack hosting the affair this time around (870-535-3294 or email him at blindate@seark.net). We recommend the Best Western Pines Motel 800-528-1234 or 870-535-8640 or The Hampton Inn 800-HAMPTON or 870-850-0444. Mention you are with the KR Gathering to get a discount rate. Tentative Gathering Schedule: Thursday, Sept 20 - the real die-hards arrive Friday, Sept 21 - arrivals and hangar flying Saturday, Sept 22 - flying, demonstrations, judging Sunday, Sept 23 - farewells and departures We will have the same hangar that we had in 1997. Pine Bluff is located about 40 miles south of Little Rock, Arkansas at the end of Interstate 530. You can expect about 10-25 KRs to fly in for the Gathering, depending on weather. This is THE place to put your hands on real KR aircraft so don't miss it! Most everybody that wants a ride in one gets it. You won't likely forget it soon either. We will once again have dinner catered Friday evening along with lunch on Saturday. ===== Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 09:14:59 -0500 To: "Robert Stone" , "KRNet" From: "RONALD.FREIBERGER" Subject: RE: KR> Attachments Message-ID: I just had two virus "offer". I think text only is a good idea. Ron Freiberger... mailto:ron.martha@mindspring.com -----Original Message----- From: Robert Stone [mailto:rlspjs@dashlink.com] Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 10:29 AM To: KRNet Subject: KR> Attachments KRNet members: When I first got on the KRNet I think I remember reading in the rules "No attachments were to be included in messages posted to the KRNet. Has that rule changed or what. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx. rlspjs@dashlink.com ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************