From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 27 Jun 2001 03:09:39 -0000 Issue 245 Date: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 8:10 PM krnet Digest 27 Jun 2001 03:09:39 -0000 Issue 245 Topics (messages 5796 through 5818): Questions on wing flexing 5796 by: Dave and Tina Goodman 5800 by: Donald Reid 5806 by: Guenther Bryce 5807 by: gleone 5808 by: Schmidt, Curtis 5813 by: Robert Stone 5816 by: Robert Cooper looking for ... 5797 by: Dave Vieira KR-2 for sale 5798 by: Doherty Al More Stuff 5799 by: DClarke351.aol.com Re: Firewall Materials 5801 by: virgnvs.juno.com kr1 5802 by: clair d boyd 5804 by: Robert Stone Finally, something to share (wing tanks) 5803 by: Dave and Tina Goodman Provost 5805 by: DClarke351.aol.com 5809 by: cartera.cuug.ab.ca slow day (long) 5810 by: Tom Crawford 5811 by: Charles Buddy & Cheryl Midkiff KR is in the spotlight again!!! 5812 by: Mark Jones 5818 by: Frank Ross Re: Tail Airfoils 5814 by: Mark Langford 5815 by: Mark Langford 5817 by: Mark Langford Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 19:50:32 -0700 To: "KR-POST" From: "Dave and Tina Goodman" Subject: Questions on wing flexing Message-ID: <003901c0fd21$9b13fb60$a544a6d1@oemcomputer> ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C0FCE6.EDCA2720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gents and engineers out there. A good question was asked of me this morning that I do not know the = answer to. As I understand it, with the skin of the wings (fiberglass) = epoxied to the top and bottom of the spars, there will be a tendency for = this to resist any bending (tension or compression) on the spars. Is = this a problem? At what point will the spars still flex and separate = the epoxy/fiberglass from the spar? I realize this should likely be = well past the time the outer wing has separated from the inner wing at = the attach fitting, and I wished I had not pulled those 6.5 g's like I = used to in the EA-6B. Taking this a step further, what about making a fiberglass wing tank = that is integral with the outer airfoil? If the fiberglass is in = contact with the spars, it would seem to me that this would also = strongly resist the tension/compression of the wooden spars. Is this a = neutral, good, or bad thing? As near as I can tell from the plans and = pictures, this is what Ken Rand had in mind... to have the fiberglass = aiding in stiffening the wing. Am I missing something? As I am planning to finish my right outer wing, with aluminum fuel tank, = in the next three weeks or so I am wanting to make sure I am not missing = something that I may pay for later. For those of you who have had on = the back burner questions about the tanks I am having made up, they are = almost done... and look beautiful. Should be 12.4 gallons each. When I = get the bill and have them installed in the wing, I will get photos and = schematics out to everyone so they have an idea what I am up to. I sure = am thankful to have a retired aero engineer and A&P to run to at Church! Thank you in advance for any answers/opinions, Respectfully, Dave "Zipper" Goodman =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C0FCE6.EDCA2720-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:02:47 -0400 To: "KR-POST" From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR> Questions on wing flexing Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010625195606.00a061c0@pop.erols.com> --=====================_1478338==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >A good question was asked of me this morning that I do not know the answer >to. As I understand it, with the skin of the wings (fiberglass) epoxied >to the top and bottom of the spars, there will be a tendency for this to >resist any bending (tension or compression) on the spars. Is this a problem? > >Taking this a step further, what about making a fiberglass wing tank that >is integral with the outer airfoil? If the fiberglass is in contact with >the spars, it would seem to me that this would also strongly resist the >tension/compression of the wooden spars. Is this a neutral, good, or bad >thing? As near as I can tell from the plans and pictures, this is what >Ken Rand had in mind... to have the fiberglass aiding in stiffening the >wing. Am I missing something? The stress/strain rate of glass is very different than that of wood. Translating into English, the glass will stretch a lot more than the wood will. The glass will not separate from the wood before the wood fails. The glass does make for a slightly stronger structure. The wood fibers are reinforced. The real explanation is a longer and more involved than this. Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com Bumpass, Va Visit my web sites at: KR2XL construction: http://users.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Aviation Surplus: http://users.erols.com/donreid/Airparts.htm EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org Ultralights: http://usua250.org VA EAA State Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org --=====================_1478338==_.ALT-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:58:40 -0700 (PDT) To: Dave and Tina Goodman , KR-POST From: Guenther Bryce Subject: Re: KR> Questions on wing flexing Message-ID: <20010626165840.93104.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Dave & Tina: I'll give an engineering reply. The KR is a stiff wing stiff wing aircraft inherently have bumpier rides ( The B-52 Bomber wing tip defections of up 100 feet and down 100 feet are static test depictions that seem incredible but are true) Metal has yield stength that is substantially less that ultimate. Wood bends great "trees do it all the time" and last for years. It the KR wing that I constructed a Static load of 4,000 lbs was applied to the inverted wing and "zero" wing defection was measured. I did audiably note the center section wood fibers reply to the load and discontinued further loading but was satisfied with 4 g equivalent test results. The bidirectional cloth certainly carrys torsional wing loading though bending loads on the wing are related to the wood spar fiber loading well before the "glass" becomes a factor. Bryce A & P, AE --- Dave and Tina Goodman wrote: > Gents and engineers out there. > > A good question was asked of me this morning that I > do not know the answer to. As I understand it, with > the skin of the wings (fiberglass) epoxied to the > top and bottom of the spars, there will be a > tendency for this to resist any bending (tension or > compression) on the spars. Is this a problem? At > what point will the spars still flex and separate > the epoxy/fiberglass from the spar? I realize this > should likely be well past the time the outer wing > has separated from the inner wing at the attach > fitting, and I wished I had not pulled those 6.5 g's > like I used to in the EA-6B. > > Taking this a step further, what about making a > fiberglass wing tank that is integral with the outer > airfoil? If the fiberglass is in contact with the > spars, it would seem to me that this would also > strongly resist the tension/compression of the > wooden spars. Is this a neutral, good, or bad > thing? As near as I can tell from the plans and > pictures, this is what Ken Rand had in mind... to > have the fiberglass aiding in stiffening the wing. > Am I missing something? > > As I am planning to finish my right outer wing, with > aluminum fuel tank, in the next three weeks or so I > am wanting to make sure I am not missing something > that I may pay for later. For those of you who have > had on the back burner questions about the tanks I > am having made up, they are almost done... and look > beautiful. Should be 12.4 gallons each. When I get > the bill and have them installed in the wing, I will > get photos and schematics out to everyone so they > have an idea what I am up to. I sure am thankful to > have a retired aero engineer and A&P to run to at > Church! > > Thank you in advance for any answers/opinions, > > Respectfully, > Dave "Zipper" Goodman > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:10:16 -0600 To: Guenther Bryce From: gleone CC: Dave and Tina Goodman , KR-POST Subject: Re: KR> Questions on wing flexing Message-ID: <3B38DE17.FD3439D5@tritel.net> --------------F4E740B26A60629309BBD3B5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The B-52 wing does NOT deflect 100 up and down. The bloody thing has a wingspan of 185 feet! Do the math. Those puppies would be touching wing tips top and bottom. Yes, the wing does flex in flight, but NOT, I repeat, NOT, 100! If that were true, I would have ejected from the plane my first flight! Having flown B-52's, B-52G's, to be exact, I will tell you, if the wing ever DID flex that much, you would have a 157 foot long ballistic missile screaming to earth. Guenther Bryce wrote: > Hi Dave & Tina: I'll give an engineering reply. The KR > is a stiff wing stiff wing aircraft inherently have > bumpier rides ( The B-52 Bomber wing tip defections of > up 100 feet and down 100 feet are static test > depictions that seem incredible but are true) Metal > has yield stength that is substantially less that > ultimate. Wood bends great "trees do it all the time" > and last for years. It the KR wing that I constructed > a Static load of 4,000 lbs was applied to the inverted > wing and "zero" wing defection was measured. I did > audiably note the center section wood fibers reply to > the load and discontinued further loading but was > satisfied with 4 g equivalent test results. The > bidirectional cloth certainly carrys torsional wing > loading though bending loads on the wing are related > to the wood spar fiber loading well before the "glass" > becomes a factor. Bryce A & P, AE > > --- Dave and Tina Goodman > wrote: > > Gents and engineers out there. > > > > A good question was asked of me this morning that I > > do not know the answer to. As I understand it, with > > the skin of the wings (fiberglass) epoxied to the > > top and bottom of the spars, there will be a > > tendency for this to resist any bending (tension or > > compression) on the spars. Is this a problem? At > > what point will the spars still flex and separate > > the epoxy/fiberglass from the spar? I realize this > > should likely be well past the time the outer wing > > has separated from the inner wing at the attach > > fitting, and I wished I had not pulled those 6.5 g's > > like I used to in the EA-6B. > > > > Taking this a step further, what about making a > > fiberglass wing tank that is integral with the outer > > airfoil? If the fiberglass is in contact with the > > spars, it would seem to me that this would also > > strongly resist the tension/compression of the > > wooden spars. Is this a neutral, good, or bad > > thing? As near as I can tell from the plans and > > pictures, this is what Ken Rand had in mind... to > > have the fiberglass aiding in stiffening the wing. > > Am I missing something? > > > > As I am planning to finish my right outer wing, with > > aluminum fuel tank, in the next three weeks or so I > > am wanting to make sure I am not missing something > > that I may pay for later. For those of you who have > > had on the back burner questions about the tanks I > > am having made up, they are almost done... and look > > beautiful. Should be 12.4 gallons each. When I get > > the bill and have them installed in the wing, I will > > get photos and schematics out to everyone so they > > have an idea what I am up to. I sure am thankful to > > have a retired aero engineer and A&P to run to at > > Church! > > > > Thank you in advance for any answers/opinions, > > > > Respectfully, > > Dave "Zipper" Goodman > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org --------------F4E740B26A60629309BBD3B5-- ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 2001 14:21:00 -0700 To: "gleone" , "Guenther Bryce" From: "Schmidt, Curtis" Cc: "Dave and Tina Goodman" , "KR-POST" Subject: RE: KR> Questions on wing flexing Message-ID: <000A5E79@kaydon.com> I saw the wing of a C-130 "flex" till the tips hit the ground during a L.A.= P.E.S drop once!!! The crew survived but the Herkybird didn't! Curtis Schmidt -----Original Message----- From: gleone [mailto:gleone@tritel.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 3:07 PM To: Guenther Bryce Cc: cschmidt@kaydon.com; Dave and Tina Goodman; KR-POST Subject: Re: KR> Questions on wing flexing The B-52 wing does NOT deflect 100 up and down. The bloody thing has a wingspan of 185 feet! Do the math. Those puppies would be touching wing tips top and bottom. Yes, the wing does flex in flight, but NOT, I repeat, NOT, 100! If that were true, I would have ejected from the plane my first flight! Having flown B-52's, B-52G's, to be exact, I will tell you, if the wing ever DID flex that much, you would have a 157 foot long ballistic missile screaming to earth. Guenther Bryce wrote: > Hi Dave & Tina: I'll give an engineering reply. The KR > is a stiff wing stiff wing aircraft inherently have > bumpier rides ( The B-52 Bomber wing tip defections of > up 100 feet and down 100 feet are static test > depictions that seem incredible but are true) Metal > has yield stength that is substantially less that > ultimate. Wood bends great "trees do it all the time" > and last for years. It the KR wing that I constructed > a Static load of 4,000 lbs was applied to the inverted > wing and "zero" wing defection was measured. I did > audiably note the center section wood fibers reply to > the load and discontinued further loading but was > satisfied with 4 g equivalent test results. The > bidirectional cloth certainly carrys torsional wing > loading though bending loads on the wing are related > to the wood spar fiber loading well before the "glass" > becomes a factor. Bryce A & P, AE > > --- Dave and Tina Goodman > wrote: > > Gents and engineers out there. > > > > A good question was asked of me this morning that I > > do not know the answer to. As I understand it, with > > the skin of the wings (fiberglass) epoxied to the > > top and bottom of the spars, there will be a > > tendency for this to resist any bending (tension or > > compression) on the spars. Is this a problem? At > > what point will the spars still flex and separate > > the epoxy/fiberglass from the spar? I realize this > > should likely be well past the time the outer wing > > has separated from the inner wing at the attach > > fitting, and I wished I had not pulled those 6.5 g's > > like I used to in the EA-6B. > > > > Taking this a step further, what about making a > > fiberglass wing tank that is integral with the outer > > airfoil? If the fiberglass is in contact with the > > spars, it would seem to me that this would also > > strongly resist the tension/compression of the > > wooden spars. Is this a neutral, good, or bad > > thing? As near as I can tell from the plans and > > pictures, this is what Ken Rand had in mind... to > > have the fiberglass aiding in stiffening the wing. > > Am I missing something? > > > > As I am planning to finish my right outer wing, with > > aluminum fuel tank, in the next three weeks or so I > > am wanting to make sure I am not missing something > > that I may pay for later. For those of you who have > > had on the back burner questions about the tanks I > > am having made up, they are almost done... and look > > beautiful. Should be 12.4 gallons each. When I get > > the bill and have them installed in the wing, I will > > get photos and schematics out to everyone so they > > have an idea what I am up to. I sure am thankful to > > have a retired aero engineer and A&P to run to at > > Church! > > > > Thank you in advance for any answers/opinions, > > > > Respectfully, > > Dave "Zipper" Goodman > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 19:14:05 -0500 To: "Schmidt, Curtis" , "gleone" , "Guenther Bryce" From: "Robert Stone" Cc: "Dave and Tina Goodman" , "KR-POST" Subject: Re: KR> Questions on wing flexing Message-ID: <002f01c0fe9e$1541de20$ebd8fea9@pavilion> Netters: I spent 22 years in the USAF and 18 of them were in SAC as a crew member and then Crew chief. I have about 150 hours in in the B-52 as a Crew Chief just to get paid flight pay. During take off, I used to like to be in the celestial station so I could watch the wings. They were bowed down when the take off role started and bowed up at lift off. The total wing tip travel looked to be about 6 or 7 feet and that may not be right, but l00 feet no way in the world could it have been that much Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx rlspjs@dashlink.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Schmidt, Curtis" To: "gleone" ; "Guenther Bryce" Cc: "Dave and Tina Goodman" ; "KR-POST" Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 4:21 PM Subject: RE: KR> Questions on wing flexing > I saw the wing of a C-130 "flex" till the tips hit the ground during a L.A.P.E.S drop once!!! The crew survived but the Herkybird didn't! > Curtis Schmidt > > -----Original Message----- > From: gleone [mailto:gleone@tritel.net] > Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 3:07 PM > To: Guenther Bryce > Cc: cschmidt@kaydon.com; Dave and Tina Goodman; KR-POST > Subject: Re: KR> Questions on wing flexing > > The B-52 wing does NOT deflect 100 up and down. The bloody thing has a > wingspan of 185 feet! Do the math. Those puppies would be touching wing > tips top and bottom. Yes, the wing does flex in flight, but NOT, I > repeat, NOT, 100! If that were true, I would have ejected from the plane > my first flight! Having flown B-52's, B-52G's, to be exact, I will tell > you, if the wing ever DID flex that much, you would have a 157 foot long > ballistic missile screaming to earth. > > Guenther Bryce wrote: > > > Hi Dave & Tina: I'll give an engineering reply. The KR > > is a stiff wing stiff wing aircraft inherently have > > bumpier rides ( The B-52 Bomber wing tip defections of > > up 100 feet and down 100 feet are static test > > depictions that seem incredible but are true) Metal > > has yield stength that is substantially less that > > ultimate. Wood bends great "trees do it all the time" > > and last for years. It the KR wing that I constructed > > a Static load of 4,000 lbs was applied to the inverted > > wing and "zero" wing defection was measured. I did > > audiably note the center section wood fibers reply to > > the load and discontinued further loading but was > > satisfied with 4 g equivalent test results. The > > bidirectional cloth certainly carrys torsional wing > > loading though bending loads on the wing are related > > to the wood spar fiber loading well before the "glass" > > becomes a factor. Bryce A & P, AE > > > > --- Dave and Tina Goodman > > wrote: > > > Gents and engineers out there. > > > > > > A good question was asked of me this morning that I > > > do not know the answer to. As I understand it, with > > > the skin of the wings (fiberglass) epoxied to the > > > top and bottom of the spars, there will be a > > > tendency for this to resist any bending (tension or > > > compression) on the spars. Is this a problem? At > > > what point will the spars still flex and separate > > > the epoxy/fiberglass from the spar? I realize this > > > should likely be well past the time the outer wing > > > has separated from the inner wing at the attach > > > fitting, and I wished I had not pulled those 6.5 g's > > > like I used to in the EA-6B. > > > > > > Taking this a step further, what about making a > > > fiberglass wing tank that is integral with the outer > > > airfoil? If the fiberglass is in contact with the > > > spars, it would seem to me that this would also > > > strongly resist the tension/compression of the > > > wooden spars. Is this a neutral, good, or bad > > > thing? As near as I can tell from the plans and > > > pictures, this is what Ken Rand had in mind... to > > > have the fiberglass aiding in stiffening the wing. > > > Am I missing something? > > > > > > As I am planning to finish my right outer wing, with > > > aluminum fuel tank, in the next three weeks or so I > > > am wanting to make sure I am not missing something > > > that I may pay for later. For those of you who have > > > had on the back burner questions about the tanks I > > > am having made up, they are almost done... and look > > > beautiful. Should be 12.4 gallons each. When I get > > > the bill and have them installed in the wing, I will > > > get photos and schematics out to everyone so they > > > have an idea what I am up to. I sure am thankful to > > > have a retired aero engineer and A&P to run to at > > > Church! > > > > > > Thank you in advance for any answers/opinions, > > > > > > Respectfully, > > > Dave "Zipper" Goodman > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail > > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 20:29:21 -0700 To: "Schmidt, Curtis" , "gleone" , "Guenther Bryce" From: "Robert Cooper" Cc: "Dave and Tina Goodman" , "krnet" Subject: Re: KR> Questions on wing flexing Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C0FE7E.AE628340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Was that the one doing the L.A.P.E.S demo at Fr Bragg? Jack Cooper mailto:kr2cooper@msn.com http://www.geocities.com/kr2cooper/ Fayetteville, NC. ----- Original Message ----- From: Schmidt, Curtis Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 12:29 PM To: gleone; Guenther Bryce Cc: Dave and Tina Goodman; KR-POST Subject: RE: KR> Questions on wing flexing I saw the wing of a C-130 "flex" till the tips hit the ground during a L.= A.P.E.S drop once!!! The crew survived but the Herkybird didn't! Curtis Schmidt -----Original Message----- From: gleone [mailto:gleone@tritel.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 3:07 PM To: Guenther Bryce Cc: cschmidt@kaydon.com; Dave and Tina Goodman; KR-POST Subject: Re: KR> Questions on wing flexing The B-52 wing does NOT deflect 100 up and down. The bloody thing has a wingspan of 185 feet! Do the math. Those puppies would be touching wing tips top and bottom. Yes, the wing does flex in flight, but NOT, I repeat, NOT, 100! If that were true, I would have ejected from the plane my first flight! Having flown B-52's, B-52G's, to be exact, I will tell you, if the wing ever DID flex that much, you would have a 157 foot long ballistic missile screaming to earth. Guenther Bryce wrote: > Hi Dave & Tina: I'll give an engineering reply. The KR > is a stiff wing stiff wing aircraft inherently have > bumpier rides ( The B-52 Bomber wing tip defections of > up 100 feet and down 100 feet are static test > depictions that seem incredible but are true) Metal > has yield stength that is substantially less that > ultimate. Wood bends great "trees do it all the time" > and last for years. It the KR wing that I constructed > a Static load of 4,000 lbs was applied to the inverted > wing and "zero" wing defection was measured. I did > audiably note the center section wood fibers reply to > the load and discontinued further loading but was > satisfied with 4 g equivalent test results. The > bidirectional cloth certainly carrys torsional wing > loading though bending loads on the wing are related > to the wood spar fiber loading well before the "glass" > becomes a factor. Bryce A & P, AE > > --- Dave and Tina Goodman > wrote: > > Gents and engineers out there. > > > > A good question was asked of me this morning that I > > do not know the answer to. As I understand it, with > > the skin of the wings (fiberglass) epoxied to the > > top and bottom of the spars, there will be a > > tendency for this to resist any bending (tension or > > compression) on the spars. Is this a problem? At > > what point will the spars still flex and separate > > the epoxy/fiberglass from the spar? I realize this > > should likely be well past the time the outer wing > > has separated from the inner wing at the attach > > fitting, and I wished I had not pulled those 6.5 g's > > like I used to in the EA-6B. > > > > Taking this a step further, what about making a > > fiberglass wing tank that is integral with the outer > > airfoil? If the fiberglass is in contact with the > > spars, it would seem to me that this would also > > strongly resist the tension/compression of the > > wooden spars. Is this a neutral, good, or bad > > thing? As near as I can tell from the plans and > > pictures, this is what Ken Rand had in mind... to > > have the fiberglass aiding in stiffening the wing. > > Am I missing something? > > > > As I am planning to finish my right outer wing, with > > aluminum fuel tank, in the next three weeks or so I > > am wanting to make sure I am not missing something > > that I may pay for later. For those of you who have > > had on the back burner questions about the tanks I > > am having made up, they are almost done... and look > > beautiful. Should be 12.4 gallons each. When I get > > the bill and have them installed in the wing, I will > > get photos and schematics out to everyone so they > > have an idea what I am up to. I sure am thankful to > > have a retired aero engineer and A&P to run to at > > Church! > > > > Thank you in advance for any answers/opinions, > > > > Respectfully, > > Dave "Zipper" Goodman > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C0FE7E.AE628340-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 11:07:20 -0700 (PDT) To: KRnet From: Dave Vieira Subject: looking for ... Message-ID: <20010625180720.19121.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com> Hello, Im looking for the following for my KR2: - fixed gear legs - wing attach fittings - brakes Thanks ===== Dave Vieira Ontario, Canada __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:26:31 -0400 (EDT) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Doherty Al Subject: KR-2 for sale Message-ID: <20010625182631.86909.qmail@web9705.mail.yahoo.com> Kr2 for sale.(CGDDA) Completed 00.20 hrs TT engine and airframe.EA81 subaru w/Johnson Reduction gear.DD gear and wing skins.Basic VFR(all new) $12k USD.See at www.members.home.net/adoherty2/kr2. Al Doherty alareen1@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:24:27 EDT To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: DClarke351@aol.com Subject: More Stuff Message-ID: <6d.15ed8413.2869141b@aol.com> For Sale I set of duel rudder pedals with master cylinders. (Originally from a 1958 C-150) $ 125.00. From KR-2 N9296M.One brand new Wag Aero Marline Battery Box. (Was going to be installed into my KR) $89.00 One Ameri-King Elt AK-450 I paid $189.00 will sell for $125.00 All the above is + shipping. Don Clarke (E-Mail or call 915-755-0588) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:43:27 -0400 To: joe.kr2s.builder@juno.com From: virgnvs@juno.com Cc: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Firewall Materials Message-ID: <20010625.202757.-288167.0.virgnvs@juno.com> FOLLOW THE PLANS, Virg On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:23:52 -0400 "Joseph H. Horton" writes: > KR Group; > Aircraft, Spruce, & Spec. shows 1/8" and 1/16" fiberfax. Is > the !/16" > acceptable? Also Benglis' Firewall Foreward > says that aluminum is O.K. over fiberfax for the firewall or should > it > have the .018 st. stl. over or is the .018 stainless steel alright > by > it's self over the KR's plywood firewall? > Thanks in advance for the help. Joe Horton > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:25:24 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: clair d boyd Subject: kr1 Message-ID: <20010625.232526.-214759.0.boyd84@juno.com> Have a kr1 with no taildragger experience. A ride in a kr2 would be a great help. The kr1 is at Chicago hammond airport in Lansing Illinois, which is near Gary and Griffith airport in Indiana. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 07:52:36 -0500 To: "KRNet" , "clair d boyd" From: "Robert Stone" Subject: Re: KR> kr1 Message-ID: <002c01c0fe3f$aecf7480$ebd8fea9@pavilion> Clair: DO NOT TRY TO FLY OR EVEN TAXI A KR-1 WITHOUT FIRST GETTING SOME TAIL DRAGGER TRAINING. I had a friend out in California who spent years building a KR-1 then against the advise of all his friends he tried to just taxi his aircraft having had no tail dragger training whatsoever. The end result, in a high speed taxi he wrecked the aircraft in a ground loop so severe that it could not even be re-built. GET THE TRAINING ON ANY TAIL DRAGGER YOU CAN. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx rlspjs@dashlink.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "clair d boyd" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 1:25 AM Subject: KR> kr1 > Have a kr1 with no taildragger experience. A ride in a kr2 would be a > great help. The kr1 is at Chicago hammond airport in Lansing Illinois, > which is near Gary and Griffith airport in Indiana. > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:53:08 -0700 To: "KR-POST" From: "Dave and Tina Goodman" Subject: Finally, something to share (wing tanks) Message-ID: <001401c0fe04$472e12e0$bb44a6d1@oemcomputer> ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0FDC9.9A169940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fellow builders, Having spent the last year watching the posts of some great builders, I = finally have something I feel is worth sharing. I just finished for the = evening setting my right wing fuel tank in the outer airfoil, and it is = working better than I could have ever hoped it would. Here are the = details: The tank is aluminum, tapering with the wing from the outer edge of the = main spar WAF toward the outer wing. The fuel cell only goes aft from = the front spar about 55% of the distance between the spars to take = advantage of the thickness of the airfoil being the same at both leading = and trailing edge. The lower airfoil foam is 2" thick and fiberglassed = (on the inside) to the spars with 3/4" overlap with the spar. To fit = the tank so the top foam sheet will cover it and have at least one inch = of foam covering, the lower sheet of foam has a "ramp" cut into going = aft that is a maximum of 1" deep . What this provides is a trough for = the tank to sit in, preventing it from sliding fore-aft or laterally = without the need for braces. The tanks will hold 12.4 gallons and features a direct-read sight gauge = on the inboard bulkhead (top of the wing will have a Plexiglas window to = allow viewing and a fuel low warning system that will illuminate a = caution light when the tank is down to 4 gallons (40-minutes fuel = remaining... not accounting for trapped fuel... that is coming later!). I know I should have photos of this, and I will, as soon as I can take = some and get them scanned. I will also scan the plans I used and the = final cost when I have all the receipts in. Good building. Respectfully, Dave "Zipper" Goodman zipperts@whidbey.net =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0FDC9.9A169940-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:12:19 EDT To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: DClarke351@aol.com Subject: Provost Message-ID: <21.d97d916.2869f243@aol.com> Anyone out there interested in a 1952 British Provost jet trainer? Ready to fly. Anyone who can fly a C-172 can fly this plane. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:46:40 -0600 To: DClarke351@aol.com From: cartera@cuug.ab.ca CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Provost Message-ID: <3B38F4B0.D9E2C6E2@cuug.ab.ca> Yeah! if you can afford the fuel - I'll take two ;) DClarke351@aol.com wrote: > > Anyone out there interested in a 1952 British Provost jet trainer? Ready to > fly. Anyone who can fly a C-172 can fly this plane. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org -- Adrian VE6AFY Calgary, Alberta Mailto:cartera@cuug.ab.ca http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~cartera ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:17:17 -0400 To: KR-net users group From: Tom Crawford Subject: slow day (long) Message-ID: <3B3909ED.7A1F@ufl.edu> Since it has been so quiet on KR-net lately, I thought I would share something I found on the RV-list. Listers: I was torn this weekend as to where to fly. The Rocky Mountain fly-in at Longmont sounded pretty appealing. I checked the website. Oriented to pilots and not the public; well that sounds good. I went down a little further where it said about 10,000 people were expected. That did not sound so good to this country boy, so I decided to go to the little local free breakfast fly-in at Hobbs, NM. Despite being a little local gathering I ended up at the breakfast table with about 5 RV listers. The subject of conversation drifted toward Cougar Landing and the Crawford prohibited area. Unbeknownst to me, until this moment, at least one lister had a brush with the secret service during the fly-in. It turns out that, despite multiple GPS's, and lots of publicity, this lister made a navigational error that attracted the notice of big brother. As this lister left Gatesville on the way home, he requested flight following. It turns out that ATC was really interested. They wanted to know name, address, phone number and every other kind of personal data. This lister felt really special. There was a phone message from a special agent waiting on the answering machine at home. According to the special agent, the lister had violated the prohibited area according to sensors at the George W. Bush Ranch, as well as Waco approach and Fort Worth Center. Nice to know they care. Well, it also turns out that one of the listers at the breakfast table is a federal law enforcement official. He contributed that the sensor at the ranch was connected to SAMS, that not only tracked aircraft in the prohibited area, but aircraft for some distance around the ranch. Our unfortunate lister had extensive discussions with the special agent. He expressed great regret and sorrow at his error, which he still does not understand. He volunteered aerial services for George W. on future visits to the ranch. In general, he was a good guy. The special agent expressed appreciation for his good attitude and cooperation and told him to not mess up again. The agent even said he would not refer the matter to the FAA, which I imagine would have meant a license suspension. Well I guess the moral is to be careful and that even the federal government can be understanding. There is lots of complex airspace and some of it is stuff we should not even mess with. Be careful out there! -- Tom Crawford Gainesville, FL N262TC Flying N???TC Wings Mailto:toys@ufl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:06:16 -0700 To: , "KR-net users group" From: "Charles Buddy & Cheryl Midkiff" Subject: Re: KR> slow day (long) Message-ID: <002301c0fe94$9bc70420$633e1a3f@cmidkiff> Hi Tom, This is regarding a message from a few days ago, which I believe was from you, anyway you mentioned you were using the Rand dual control stick assembly. Well I bought the dual stick assembly from Rand recently, removed my center stick and installed the new assembly. It works very smooth left to right, but is sticky up and down. Just wondering if you had any problems fine tuning yours. The main tube rides in round nylon bearing blocks and I'm not sure what the best lubrication would be for nylon. I also bought the top deck and wingskin pre-molds from Wes Hennis in Florida and had them shipped out here to Seattle.He had advertised them in the KR Newsletter. I already had the top deck pre-molds for a KR-2 but decided the KR2S pre-molds will fit better because I lengthened the fuselage. It must really get hot in Florida as the stuff they put on the canopy to protect it is really melted on. It doesn't want to peel off very easy. Also the wingskins were missing the material for making the ribs. If anyone knows a source for this material I would really appreciate it. Jeanette says Dan's ribs will not work as they are not compatible material. Jeanette is checking with her supplier but hasn't got back to me yet. Thanks, Bud Midkiff Lynnwood, WA http://www.geocities.com/randkr2/KR-2.html?953261104360 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Crawford" To: "KR-net users group" Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 3:17 PM Subject: KR> slow day (long) > Since it has been so quiet on KR-net lately, I thought I would share > something I found on the RV-list. > > > Listers: > > I was torn this weekend as to where to fly. The Rocky Mountain fly-in > at > Longmont sounded pretty appealing. I checked the website. Oriented to > pilots and not the public; well that sounds good. I went down a little > further where it said about 10,000 people were expected. That did not > sound > so good to this country boy, so I decided to go to the little local free > breakfast fly-in at Hobbs, NM. > > Despite being a little local gathering I ended up at the breakfast table > with about 5 RV listers. The subject of conversation drifted toward > Cougar > Landing and the Crawford prohibited area. Unbeknownst to me, until this > moment, at least one lister had a brush with the secret service during > the > fly-in. It turns out that, despite multiple GPS's, and lots of > publicity, > this lister made a navigational error that attracted the notice of big > brother. > > As this lister left Gatesville on the way home, he requested flight > following. It turns out that ATC was really interested. They wanted to > know name, address, phone number and every other kind of personal data. > This lister felt really special. There was a phone message from a > special > agent waiting on the answering machine at home. According to the > special > agent, the lister had violated the prohibited area according to sensors > at > the George W. Bush Ranch, as well as Waco approach and Fort Worth > Center. > Nice to know they care. > > Well, it also turns out that one of the listers at the breakfast table > is a > federal law enforcement official. He contributed that the sensor at the > ranch was connected to SAMS, that not only tracked aircraft in the > prohibited area, but aircraft for some distance around the ranch. > > Our unfortunate lister had extensive discussions with the special agent. > He > expressed great regret and sorrow at his error, which he still does not > understand. He volunteered aerial services for George W. on future > visits > to the ranch. In general, he was a good guy. > > The special agent expressed appreciation for his good attitude and > cooperation and told him to not mess up again. The agent even said he > would > not refer the matter to the FAA, which I imagine would have meant a > license > suspension. > > Well I guess the moral is to be careful and that even the federal > government > can be understanding. There is lots of complex airspace and some of it > is > stuff we should not even mess with. > > Be careful out there! > > > > -- > Tom Crawford > Gainesville, FL > N262TC Flying > N???TC Wings > Mailto:toys@ufl.edu > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:53:55 -0500 To: KR-Net From: Mark Jones Subject: KR is in the spotlight again!!! Message-ID: <3B392092.D060F0A5@execpc.com> I just received my July 2001 Sport Aviation magazine from EAA and they have spotlighted the KR with two articles. The first is on page 67 titled "One In A Two" which is of Pete Rafferty of Tampa, Florida highly modified KR-2. The second is on page 71 titled "Virtual Creation, A New Airfoil For The KR-2S" written by Mark Langford. Both of these articles are exceptional and each author deserves a special congratulations for exposing our birds in EAA again. CONGRATULATIONS to the BEST of the BEST. So, all you guys who have been putting EAA down for various reasons may have a different attitude after you see this issue. Thanks, -- Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at mailto:flykr2s@execpc.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://sites.netscape.net/n886mj/homepage ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 20:09:38 -0700 (PDT) To: KR-Net From: Frank Ross Subject: Re: KR> KR is in the spotlight again!!! Message-ID: <20010627030938.29403.qmail@web4703.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mark Jones wrote: > I just received my July 2001 Sport Aviation magazine > from EAA and they > have spotlighted the KR with two articles. > Mark Jones (N886MJ) > Wales, WI USA Pete's KR was the only one at Sun-N-Fun most of the time. Tom Crawford had his there for awhile, but he had to leave. Pete has a very beautiful plane with exceptional workmanship. He has one of the largest and most comfortable looking seats I've ever seen in a KR. I am really curious how he built it and if it weighs as much as it looks like it does. He can get by with that since he's made it a one-seater and he looks to be somewhat lighter than many of us, me included. Haven't gotten my copy yet, but I'll be checking the mailbox. Thanks Mark, ===== Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 19:20:35 -0500 To: "KRNET" From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Tail Airfoils Message-ID: <002001c0fe9e$fcbf57a0$0100a8c0@cmc3075662a> Todd Servaes wrote: > I am looking for a source for the coordinates for or, better yet, > templates for a true airfoil for my KR2-S's tail surfaces rather than > the eyeball it airfoil in the plans. I need it to work with the RAF 48 > rather than the new wing airfoils since I am using pre molded wing > skins. Todd, I put a DXF file of the ones I developed for my plane seven years ago at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/tail_templates.zip . These are NACA 63 series laminar flow. The rudder I had to conjure up myself, almost certainly the only 5.5% 63 percent airfoils in existence (to deliberately match the plans, but yield a real airfoil) which I've aptly named 63005.5. I used an airfoil generating Fortran program that would plot the points for an airfoil, and then connected the dots using MicroStation's 3rd order bspline curves. These templates use a thicker main spar for the horizontal stab for increased effectiveness, rigidity and perhaps flutter resistance, and almost stock dimensions on the vertical stab. The elevator is stock size (area) IF the horizontal is made 84" long, but you can make it whatever length you want to make it. According to Troy's work, a smaller elevator is a good thing, but all of this depends on stuff like CG, etc. The little templates are for creating the gap seals. Most folks that have seen my gaps would agree that they are somewhat helpful! There's nothing magic that connects these to the new airfoil, just my idea of what I thought I needed on my airplane. I believe most people agree that the decalage (difference in incidence of the wing and horizontal stab) should be closer to 2 degrees than the 3.5 that the plans call out, so I canted my nose down three quarters of a degree, which is equivalent to a 3/32" shim under the rear h/s spar, to match my 1 degree wing root. Stock KR builders using 3.5 degrees might want to go down closer to 1.5 degrees and reclaim a little trim drag, but you didn't hear it here. Feel free to plot these out and use them. Anybody that wants to simply buy a set plotted out and rolled up can send a check for $20 to Trailing Edge Technologies' Dr. Dean at the address at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/tet/ and tell him you want a set of tail templates. He doesn't even know about this yet, but I'll let him know what you're talking about before then. I haven't offered these for sale as it's basically more trouble than it's worth, but I've been asked about these twice in two weeks so there is a need. Sorry for the advertisement. I'm making no claims as to whether YOU need these templates, whether you need to change your tail incidence, or whether or not they'll make your wife a millionaire when she collects your life insurance policy. They're just what I used, and have only been tested on one airplane so far (Jim Hill's). You're free to analzye them and make up your own mind (disclaimer). This sounds awfully selfish, but I hope this doesn't start a whole nuther round of CAD questions and file requests because I've got this plane I need to build. I'm just trying to help out a little. Thanks for letting me hide out in the corner... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Trailing Edge Technologies, LLC mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 19:23:47 -0500 To: "Mark Langford" , "KRNET" From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Tail Airfoils Message-ID: <002f01c0fe9f$6efb9310$0100a8c0@cmc3075662a> I wrote: > certainly the only 5.5% 63 percent airfoils in existence (to deliberately... make that "certainly the only 5.5% 63 series airfoils in existence (to deliberately..." Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 19:41:12 -0500 To: "KRNET" From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Tail Airfoils Message-ID: <001201c0fea1$dda60a50$0100a8c0@cmc3075662a> Whuuuuuuups! I said: > Stock > KR builders using 3.5 degrees might want to go down closer to 1.5 degrees > and reclaim a little trim drag, but you didn't hear it here. Obviously I meant that the REAR h/s spar would go down somewhat. That would be a whoppping 5 degrees of decalage! Come to think of it, that's exactly what the original KRs had, until somebody came to their senses and lowered a tad to 3.5 degrees of incidence at the root rather than five. The simple solution would obviously be to lower the main wing's root incidence to something more normal like 2 degrees, and leave the tail at zero, if you're just getting started. Bottom line is that if you don't know what you're doing, and how these things affect handling qualities and other critical relationships, you probably ought to stick to the plans. I do all these crazy things because I have a death wish, and my wife has about half a million dollars riding on my sucessful demise. But if you want those templates, they're out there, take it or leave it. I'm sure somebody will assail me for this contribution, and you're welcome to have the last word, as I'm done... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************