From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 16 Oct 2001 23:02:24 -0000 Issue 308 Date: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 4:02 PM krnet Digest 16 Oct 2001 23:02:24 -0000 Issue 308 Topics (messages 7306 through 7320): Re: Attachment for front deck 7306 by: Mark Langford I'm Going to Be Free 7307 by: Jim Faughn Re: Attachment for front deck,bonding aluminum 7308 by: Jan Laan 7309 by: Mark Langford 7310 by: Frank Ross 7311 by: Ned Thomas 7312 by: Robert X. Cringely Temps 7313 by: Kenneth L Wiltrout 2002 gathering info 7314 by: garbez 7318 by: Jim Sellars N541RY 7315 by: Ross R. Youngblood KRNet contributions 7316 by: Oscar Zuniga Re: FW: 7317 by: Jim Sellars Epoxy & Alum. 7319 by: Sam Sayer more bad news 7320 by: Flymaca711689.cs.com Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:10:32 -0500 To: "KRnet" From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Attachment for front deck Message-ID: <006f01c154fd$0b2ad4e0$0100a8c0@cmc3075662a> Frank Ross wrote: > On your website under "New Tankless Forward Deck" > Picture #7, it looks like you show attaching the hinge > with screws INTO the top longerons... Yep, that's how I did it, using 1/4" long number four wood screws from Wicks, but the hinges were later glued to the longeron with T-88. The screws were just there so it would be removable during the construction process and to keep it in contact 'til the T-88 cured. Anybody that thinks T-88 won't hold it needs to glue some aluminum to a piece of spruce and then try to get it back apart the next day. Sand the back of the hinge to rough it up to improve adhesion. Rear deck is the same way... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:57:34 -0500 To: "KR Net Response" From: "Jim Faughn" Subject: I'm Going to Be Free Message-ID: Tomorrow they release the airspace in the Class B Airspace of St. Louis. Wouldn't you know it is supposed to rain all day. I expect to be flying by Wednesday and hopefully without F-16 escort. I'll let you know how all of my changes with engine timing go with the plane..... I have a gentleman by the name of Roger Ganfield who is waiting for my plane to be released so we can fly together. He had his KR inspected and is ready for flight except he is wanting some dual. Now I need to get my proficiency back up so we can be successful in the dual and he will be successful in his first flight. I'll let you know how the flying is in St. Louis. Jim Faughn 4323D Laclede Ave. St. Louis, MO 63108 (314)652-7659 Mailto:jfaughn@mvp.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:55:49 -0700 To: "Mark Langford" ,"KRnet" From: Jan Laan Subject: Re: KR> Attachment for front deck,bonding aluminum Message-ID: <100310727301@smtp.vphos.net> Mark, Netters, From what I have read and heard of bonding to aluminum I have concluded that this should not be done by the do-it-yourselver. Any and all technical papers on the subject discredit mechanical preparation as an adequate surface treatment for bonding aluminum. Sanding being the worst choice of all, as it leaves a crisscross of fine channels with highly reactive aluminum at the sides that provide a pathway for oxidation creeping in under the bonding agent. It will be fine after an over night cure, hold for a month,year, maybe two, but will surprise you yet, sooner or later. My advice: don't rely on it. But rather,in the application under discussion, use it in combination with a catch system that grabs under the longeron when you close the deck or hatch as the case may be. That way; if it parts during that 200mph low pass, it doesn't fly into the windshield but allows you a save landing. Or, in the case of the turtle deck, it won't take off with the vertical stab. and rudder. About my credibility: I studied naval architecture and metal science, specializing in welding technology, at Delft University, The Netherlands. My industrial career involved nuclear reactor pressure vessels as a QA boss and Research and Development in materials application for a large Pulp and Paper company. Yours, Jan >Frank Ross wrote: > >> On your website under "New Tankless Forward Deck" >> Picture #7, it looks like you show attaching the hinge >> with screws INTO the top longerons... > >Yep, that's how I did it, using 1/4" long number four wood screws from >Wicks, but the hinges were later glued to the longeron with T-88. The >screws were just there so it would be removable during the construction >process and to keep it in contact 'til the T-88 cured. Anybody that thinks >T-88 won't hold it needs to glue some aluminum to a piece of spruce and then >try to get it back apart the next day. Sand the back of the hinge to rough >it up to improve adhesion. Rear deck is the same way... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 20:42:26 -0500 To: "KRnet" From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Attachment for front deck,bonding aluminum Message-ID: <00f401c1551a$a4ea1740$0100a8c0@cmc3075662a> Jan Laan wrote: > >From what I have read and heard of bonding to > aluminum I have concluded that this should not be > done by the do-it-yourselver. So there's your answer Frank. Figure out your own way to do it. Mine is for those with a death wish only. Forget actual testing to destruction. Forget that the glue is stronger than the wood. Do those papers address bonding aluminum to WOOD, or is it aluminum to aluminum? I guess it's a choice of whether you'd rather drill a hundred holes through your longerons or depend on glue that's stronger than the wood itself. Oxidation? Geez, what about the rest of the aluminum? And it seems like the glue would fill those little channels, otherwise known as "tooth", but what do I know? I figured somebody would call me on the differing coefficients of thermal expansion, but not corrosion! I guess I'm just going to have to throw caution to the wind, again... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:01:15 -0700 (PDT) To: KRnet From: Frank Ross Subject: Attachment for front deck,bonding aluminum Message-ID: <20011015040115.10414.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com> Mark, It should be easy enough to keep an eye on how your deck piano hinge is holding up the way you've got it assembled. I can't imagine you are going to fly many hours without pulling off that deck and taking a look at it anyway. Sure a lot easier than trying to stick your head up under the panel. Even if it's just to show it off at the Gathering... I'll definitely be elbowing my way in to get a picture or two. It IS experimental, after all... ===== Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 23:27:59 -0500 From: Ned Thomas CC: KRnet Subject: Re: KR> Attachment for front deck,bonding aluminum Message-ID: <3BCA65CF.E369DBCC@mmcable.com> Hello KR Gang, Someday I will build a KR2S but for now I must finish my Pulsar. Almost started the KR 10 years ago. Glad I waited tho cause now I get the benefit of all you KR guru's....the wing, the corvair engine...etc... The Pulsar has several components that require bonding fiberglass directly to aluminum. Industry practice is, to sand (as Langford states, "for Tooth") then wash with a good solvent or surfactant then bond within about 10 minutes. Sooner the better. Aluminum does corrode quickly but usually not enough in the first ~ 10 minutes to affect the bonding process. It's good practice in all composite construction to make a sample bond along with the bonding of the actual parts. This allows a very representative bond to be tested to destruction. My experience is like Langford's in that after making a few of these tests your confidence comes in line with what the glue guru's tell you. The bond really IS stronger than the material being bonded. I imagine this is all covered in the FAA reg's as the Pulsar is designed according to part 23 certification standards. Maybe an FAA guy could comment.... Your fellow builder, Ned ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:50:10 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Robert X. Cringely" Subject: Re: KR> Attachment for front deck,bonding aluminum Message-Id: A couple years ago I bought a Columban Cri-cri kit that had been half-finished since the early 1980s. Those who are familiar with this design, which was sold in the U.S. for a short time by Zenair as the Cricket, know it is nearly all bonded -- aluminum to aluminum and aluminum to vinyl foam. In working on that kit I found no delamination problems after 17 years of storage. Columban has strict rules for how to bond and his bonds are under very low stress as he explains it. And most importantly, the probable failure mode is in peel, so he uses strategically placed pop rivets to prevent that from happening. This use of rivets was also a lesson learned on the American Aviation Yankee aircraft after some early failures on its all-bonded wing. A few rivets (less than 20) were all it took. Now I haven't yet flown the Cri-cri, but I believe in it enough that I have since bought two more kits. It's great having a barn. One final point: my KR-1 canopy hinge has been glued to the top longeron now for 24 years. I, too, left in the wood screws and feel they provide enough margin against a peel failure. Bob >Hello KR Gang, > >Someday I will build a KR2S but for now I must finish my Pulsar. Almost >started the KR 10 years ago. Glad I waited tho cause now I get the benefit of >all you KR guru's....the wing, the corvair engine...etc... > >The Pulsar has several components that require bonding fiberglass directly to >aluminum. Industry practice is, to sand (as Langford states, "for >Tooth") then >wash with a good solvent or surfactant then bond within about 10 minutes. >Sooner the better. Aluminum does corrode quickly but usually not >enough in the >first ~ 10 minutes to affect the bonding process. > >It's good practice in all composite construction to make a sample bond along >with the bonding of the actual parts. This allows a very representative bond >to be tested to destruction. My experience is like Langford's in that after >making a few of these tests your confidence comes in line with what the glue >guru's tell you. The bond really IS stronger than the material being bonded. > >I imagine this is all covered in the FAA reg's as the Pulsar is designed >according to part 23 certification standards. Maybe an FAA guy could >comment.... > >Your fellow builder, >Ned > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , or "reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ . >AOL and Compuserve do NOT pass KRNet email, so use some other system! -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 19:48:19 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Kenneth L Wiltrout Subject: Temps Message-ID: <20011015.194820.-523761.0.klw1953@juno.com> Just wondering what some of you guys flying the 2100 Revmaster find acceptable for oil temps and cyl temps while in the climb. Thanks----------------Kenny ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 19:18:09 -0500 To: "krnet" From: "garbez" Subject: 2002 gathering info Message-ID: <001701c155d8$b9e9f8e0$94bbfea9@msgtlg.netins.net> Guys, Just a quick note to let you know, I have gotten toll free numbers for the motels in Red Oak, the Red Coach Inn is 1-800-544-6002 and is direct to the Red Oak motel. The number for Super 8 is a national number 1-800-800-8000, and you must make sure and request the motel in Red Oak Iowa. Mike Garbez N998MG 2002 Gathering Host P.S. Make reservations as early as possible. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:42:08 -0300 To: "garbez" , "krnet" From: "Jim Sellars" Subject: Re: KR> 2002 gathering info Message-ID: <002f01c1563f$f9a8c440$a2a89aa5@mainpc> Mike: Hope you don't mind but I would like to announce that I have some other parts available, a brand new ( 11 hours) hobbs meter, a tachometer, to add to the other parts that I have mentioned before. Regards Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "garbez" To: "krnet" Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 9:18 PM Subject: KR> 2002 gathering info > Guys, > > Just a quick note to let you know, I have gotten toll free numbers for the > motels in Red Oak, the Red Coach Inn is 1-800-544-6002 and is direct to the > Red Oak motel. The number for Super 8 is a national number 1-800-800-8000, > and you must make sure and request the motel in Red Oak Iowa. > > Mike Garbez N998MG 2002 Gathering Host > > P.S. Make reservations as early as possible. > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , or "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ . > AOL and Compuserve do NOT pass KRNet email, so use some other system! > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 23:16:28 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Ross R. Youngblood" Subject: N541RY Message-ID: <3BCBD0BC.323B45F7@home.com> I just loaded the plane into the trailer... I plan to fire up the engine this weekend... check out http://www.geocities.com/n541ry/toairport.html I'm planning to move everything off my old http://www.teleport.com/~rossy/N541RY.htm site soon. This is about the third time the plane has been in the trailer... it has way more road miles than air miles on it so far... -- Ross ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:21:47 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: KRNet contributions Message-ID: Just a general note regarding supporting the KRNet list. Usually around September when the KR Gathering takes place, one of the net moms or the list admin posts information regarding how to help support the KRNet list. I didn't see any such thing this year. Hopping over to Mark Langford's site and scooting down to general info on the list, the link to mailinglists.org doesn't work, so I'm stumped. Hey Randy "fine whine" Stein- how do folks contribute to the cause? (And don't just suggest that they send their tax refund checks directly to you ;o) Oscar Zuniga Medford, Oregon mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:39:29 -0300 To: "Campbell, Hugh Justice \(JUS\) ATG" , "Dave Johnson" , "Eduardo Iglesias" , "Gaston Landry" , "Guenther Bryce" , "Hebb, Derrick" , "Jacobo Zaiback" , "Karin & Mike Cormier" , "Kevin Beckwith" , , , "larry flesner" , "LEE TRENCHARD" , "Lynn Barton" , "mac payne" , "Mark Langford" , "Mark Terry" , "Michael Myrden" , "Michael Sharp" , "Mike Cormier" , "Mike Mueller" , "Milton MacPhee" , "Munro, Alan" , "Obispado de Holguin - Cuba" , "Owen MacPherson" , "Phil Visconti" , "Robbie Grove" , , "Shane Daly" , "Stephen Glover" , "Sterling Goddard" , "Tanya Kinner" , "William J Crawford" From: "Jim Sellars" Subject: Fw: FW: Message-ID: <002501c1563f$a0483660$a2a89aa5@mainpc> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Fraser" To: Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 4:31 PM Subject: Fwd: FW: > > > > >Osama Bin Laden, your time is short; > >We'd rather you die, than come to court. > >Why are you hiding if it was in God's name? > >You're just a punk with a turban; a pathetic shame. > >I have a question, about your theory and laws; > >"How come you never die for the cause?" > >Is it because you're a coward who counts on others? > >Well here in America, we stand by our brothers. > > > >As is usual, you failed in your mission; > >If you expected pure chaos, you can keep on wishin' > >Americans are now focused and stronger than ever; > >Your death has become our next endeavor. > > > >What you tried to kill, doesn't live in our walls; > >It's not in buildings or shopping malls. > >If all of our structures came crashing down; > >It would still be there, safe and sound. > >Because pride and courage can't be destroyed; > >Even if the towers leave a deep void. > >We'll band together and fill the holes > >We'll bury our dead and bless their souls. > >But then our energy will focus on you; > >And you'll feel the wrath of the Red, White and Blue. > >So slither and hide like a snake in the grass; > >Because America's coming to kick your ass!!! > > > >Keep this email going. PASS IT ON!. > > L. Scott Fraser > frasersl@ns.sympatico.ca > Phone 902-765-3388 > Fax 902-765-4165 > > This e-mail is intended solely for the person or entity to which it is > addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any > review, dissemination, copying, printing or other use of this e-mail by > persons or entities other than the addressee is prohibited. If you have > received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender immediately and > delete the material from any computer. > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:41:45 -0400 To: "KR Mailing Lists" From: "Sam Sayer" Subject: Epoxy & Alum. Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1561E.62EA1480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am a retired Electro-Mechanical Engineer and I have worked with epoxies= since 1950. As a Hobby I designed, built and raced outboard Hydroplanes as a member o= f the American Power Boat Assn. for 35 years. Most of the epoxies that I worked with in the factory was Shell Epon. In = those days I handled the epoxy without gloves and my fingers would turn y= ellow, like cigarette stains. I am now building my third (3rd) airplane and I must say that I became hi= ghly alergic to the Epoxy. I now take all precautions. With respect to epoxing alum hinges to the airplane wood fuseledge, I use= d Aeropoxy ES6279"A" & "B", I find that this epoxy has more bonding stren= gth to alum than T-88. To bond alum hinges to hold my removable fordeck = and windshield. After the epoxy has cured and at 2 1/2" spacing I further= secured the hinges with Bronze 5/8 long X 1/16 dia annular ring nails. T= hese are superior to screws and less detrimental to the wood. These bron= ze nails are ones left over from my boat building days. The only source = that I could find them was a company in England. On my first KR that I scraped out to salvage all materials and parts to b= uild my present KR 2SS, I destroyed the alum hinges trying to pry and chi= sel to remove them from the firewall. These were the hinges that held th= e cowling to the airframe. So for epoxying the Alum hinge and securing with bronze nails, I'm bettin= g my life on it, and I am not a gambling man. My first KR weighed 800 pounds and my test pilot weighed in excess of 200= pounds and on the first flight, he did snap rolls with it. When he land= ed I told him that the plane was to heavy to do acrobatics with. He said= it felt good to him. Checking the plane I fond no structural damage to = the plane. So folks, don't worry about your plane coming apart in the air. Sam Sayer Zephyrhills, FloridaGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : = http://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1561E.62EA1480-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:02:22 EDT To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Flymaca711689@cs.com Subject: more bad news Message-ID: --part1_b7.1543b39b.28fe167e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It looks like the worlds oldest airport college park may close here In Maryland. I grow up In Washington area solo at 16here. the Arab nation can kiss my .,././''yours tooo they like airplanes lets show the bottom to all of them I and others will possible never see wash from the air again . on the good side i lost power on take off the aircraft glides nicely 36.4 to date under my belt 150 will never be the same mac 1055A --part1_b7.1543b39b.28fe167e_boundary-- ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************