From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 13 Dec 2001 02:11:49 -0000 Issue 340 Date: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 6:12 PM krnet Digest 13 Dec 2001 02:11:49 -0000 Issue 340 Topics (messages 8054 through 8083): Instrument Brands 8054 by: Seifert, Richard E Re: Instrument Brands... 8055 by: Mark Langford Byrd Crash Photos 8056 by: RONALD.FREIBERGER Re: kr gathering 2002 8057 by: Daniel Heath 8073 by: virgnvs.juno.com BYRD CRASH 8058 by: Philip J. Visconti 8061 by: ROBERT COOPER 8062 by: Philip J. Visconti 8064 by: Daniel Heath 8066 by: Jerry Mahurin 8068 by: flykrs.netscape.net 8069 by: Philip J. Visconti 8074 by: Willy Trinker 8076 by: Robert Stone 8079 by: Donald Reid 8082 by: Ross Youngblood 8083 by: Ross Youngblood weight and balance 8059 by: Sean Clay 8063 by: Daniel Heath 8065 by: larry flesner 8067 by: idrawtobuild 8071 by: virgnvs.juno.com 8081 by: Ross Youngblood VW engines. 8060 by: Phillip Matheson Re: Plane crazy/fuslage 8070 by: virgnvs.juno.com fuel injection systems 8072 by: w.g. kirkland 8075 by: Jerry Mahurin 8080 by: David Hartz Byrd Crash web pix 8077 by: Frank Ross 8078 by: Donald Reid Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:35:38 -0800 To: "'KRnet'" From: "Seifert, Richard E" Subject: Instrument Brands Message-ID: <9BA7A06DA8127B4B925954F3F8705D349F805E@XCH-SW-09.sw.nos.boeing.com> Peter Johnson asked; what brands of instruments have people used that they have NOT = liked? Has anyone tried any of the 'Falcon Brand' instruments? Peter You can use just about any brand of instrument you like, but unless you are paying through the nose for them, plan on calibrating them. You will save untold hours of rework and uncertainty and it is easy to do. I spent many hours trying to solve an oil temp problem that didn't exist. Finally I calibrated my gauge to the temperature of boiling water using a small variable pot and found my oil temp was right where it was supposed to be all along (the gauge was way off). You can calibrate the oil temp gauge either by the variable pot method or by renumbering the face of the gauge, but plan on doing it. CHT is a little more difficult (I heard you can use oil and a candy thermometer), and don't bother with EGT( you only tune to the peak reading here). The idea is to calibrate the gauges so they are accurate at or near the normal for your engine and use it as a "suggestion" as to weather you have a problem. Rich Seifert KR2 N56SR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 17:49:22 -0600 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Instrument Brands... Message-ID: <007b01c1829e$76d66410$dd02a58c@newyork> Peter Johnson wrote: >>Also, what brands of instruments have people used that they have NOT liked? Has anyone tried any of the 'Falcon Brand' instruments?<< Falcon Gauge is the one to avoid, and the one that was discussed earlier as having to be "hand numbered" on an individual basis. I can tell you that their turn coordinators are very loud, and create enough RFI to render your radio completely worthless on the spot! I sent it back and they basically said "gee, we've been having real problems with these, but they're all that way, and we can't give you your money back either". So consider yourself warned. It turned out that mine was rendered completely RFI silent by judicious application of a capacitor across the terminals. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 20:19:51 -0500 To: "KRNET" , "Donald Reid" From: "RONALD.FREIBERGER" Subject: Byrd Crash Photos Message-ID: Thanks for the PICs help. Looks like shoulder harness could have been a problem if well attached to the tail cone. Clearly, the aircraft is strong in the seat area an weak just behind it. Amazing survival! Ron Freiberger... mailto:ron.martha@mindspring.com -----Original Message----- From: Donald Reid [mailto:donreid@erols.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 11:18 AM To: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: KR> Byrd Crash Photos I tried to look at the Byrd crash photos that Jack Cooper has posted on his site and had trouble. He was kind enough to send me the photos and I have posted them on the EAA 231 web site. There is no text yet, that will be later. If you are interested, go to http://eaa231.org and then to the link at the bottom of the photo page. Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com Bumpass, Va Visit my web sites at: KR2XL construction: http://users.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Aviation Surplus: http://users.erols.com/donreid/Airparts.htm EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org Ultralights: http://usua250.org VA EAA State Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:12:05 -0500 To: "Robert Stone" , "garbez" , "KR-POST" From: "Daniel Heath" Subject: Re: KR> kr gathering 2002 Message-ID: <002301c182b2$65e48830$a42e5d0c@scana.com> My wife just found my 1992 KR 20th year anniversary T shirt that I got at Oshkosh that year. Would anyone like to do anything this year at either Oshkosh or the gathering for the 30th? I prefer the gathering, as Oshkosh virtually ignored us that year and we get a much better turn out at the gathering. Daniel R. Heath WWW.EAA242.ORG See our KR2 at: www.JerryMahurin.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Stone" To: "garbez" ; "KR-POST" Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 11:29 AM Subject: Re: KR> kr gathering 2002 > Mike: Your Web Site has a little error, It says the 2002 gathering will be > held on 19 - 22 September 2001. This was three months ago????????????? > > Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx > rlspjs@dashlink.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "garbez" > To: "KR-POST" > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 9:09 PM > Subject: KR> kr gathering 2002 > > > > To all KR Guys, > > I'm not sure where you are looking for the dates for the 2002 gatthering > > info but the following web site will give you all the info you need. > Where > > were you looking so I can fix the problem? > > www.krgathering.org > > > > Mike Garbez 2002 KR fly-in host > > > > Subject: Date of KR 2002 Gathering > > > > Larry wrote: > > >It would be helpful if all the places on your website, where you mention > > >about the KR gathering for 2002; you also include the "dates of it"!! > > > > > >Seeya There, > > > > > >Larry A. Capps > > >Naperville, IL > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , or "reply all" > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ . > > AOL and Compuserve do NOT pass KRNet email, so use some other system! > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , or "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ . > AOL and Compuserve do NOT pass KRNet email, so use some other system! > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:31:55 -0500 To: DanRH@att.net From: virgnvs@juno.com Cc: rlspjs@dashlink.com, msgtlg@netins.net, krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> kr gathering 2002 Message-ID: <20011212.124137.-126671.1.virgnvs@juno.com> Why you guys no like Lakeland ??? Virg On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:12:05 -0500 "Daniel Heath" writes: > My wife just found my 1992 KR 20th year anniversary T shirt that I > got at > Oshkosh that year. Would anyone like to do anything this year at > either > Oshkosh or the gathering for the 30th? I prefer the gathering, as > Oshkosh > virtually ignored us that year and we get a much better turn out at > the > gathering. > > Daniel R. Heath > > WWW.EAA242.ORG > > See our KR2 at: > > www.JerryMahurin.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Stone" > To: "garbez" ; "KR-POST" > > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 11:29 AM > Subject: Re: KR> kr gathering 2002 > > > > Mike: Your Web Site has a little error, It says the 2002 > gathering will > be > > held on 19 - 22 September 2001. This was three months > ago????????????? > > > > Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx > > rlspjs@dashlink.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "garbez" > > To: "KR-POST" > > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 9:09 PM > > Subject: KR> kr gathering 2002 > > > > > > > To all KR Guys, > > > I'm not sure where you are looking for the dates for the 2002 > gatthering > > > info but the following web site will give you all the info you > need. > > Where > > > were you looking so I can fix the problem? > > > www.krgathering.org > > > > > > Mike Garbez 2002 KR fly-in host > > > > > > Subject: Date of KR 2002 Gathering > > > > > > Larry wrote: > > > >It would be helpful if all the places on your website, where > you > mention > > > >about the KR gathering for 2002; you also include the "dates of > it"!! > > > > > > > >Seeya There, > > > > > > > >Larry A. Capps > > > >Naperville, IL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , or "reply > all" > > > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > . > > > AOL and Compuserve do NOT pass KRNet email, so use some other > system! > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , or "reply > all" > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > . > > AOL and Compuserve do NOT pass KRNet email, so use some other > system! > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , or "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ . > AOL and Compuserve do NOT pass KRNet email, so use some other > system! > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 23:00:10 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Philip J. Visconti" Subject: BYRD CRASH Message-ID: <20011211.230011.-414399.1.viscan@juno.com> This is the second crash that has happened where the plane separated in back of the seat area. At least, the second of which I am aware. Both crashes could have inflicted serious injury if the harness had been attached to the tail. The pilot, of the previous crash, suggested to NOT attach harness to tail and was thankful that he hadn't. Phil ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 23:12:26 -0500 To: "Philip J. Visconti" , "krnet" From: "ROBERT COOPER" Cc: "Gene Byrd" Subject: Re: KR> BYRD CRASH Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C18299.4C824EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Genes harness is attached to the tail with cables. Jack Cooper ----- Original Message ----- From: Philip J. Visconti Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 11:07 PM To: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: KR> BYRD CRASH This is the second crash that has happened where the plane separated in back of the seat area. At least, the second of which I am aware. Both crashes could have inflicted serious injury if the harness had been attached to the tail. The pilot, of the previous crash, suggested to NOT attach harness to tail and was thankful that he hadn't. Phil ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , or "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ . AOL and Compuserve do NOT pass KRNet email, so use some other system! ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C18299.4C824EE0-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 23:30:26 -0500 To: kr2cooper@msn.com From: "Philip J. Visconti" Cc: krnet@mailinglists.org, Kr2s643@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> BYRD CRASH Message-ID: <20011211.233027.-254619.1.viscan@juno.com> I stand corrected. Then he was very, very lucky. Phil ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 06:28:10 -0500 To: , "Philip J. Visconti" From: "Daniel Heath" Subject: Re: KR> BYRD CRASH Message-ID: <002301c18300$15413c40$2b2c5d0c@scana.com> Several months ago, we has some lively discussions about the attach point for the shoulder harness. I had intended to attach on this plane, as I did on the Little Beast, to the tail wheel bracket. The discussion convinced me to change that. It is going to be attached to a re-enforced bracket built to and behind the shelf. I am not convinced that this is strong enough, but it is the best we could come up with, so it is going to have to do. I really think that this attach point needs to be built into the fuselage as it is being built. I am not an engineer, so I don't have a plan, but this really needs to become part of the design of this craft. I think that it is a serious feature that is missing. Daniel R. Heath WWW.EAA242.ORG See our KR2 at: www.JerryMahurin.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip J. Visconti" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 11:00 PM Subject: KR> BYRD CRASH > This is the second crash that has happened where the plane separated in > back of the seat area. At least, the second of which I am aware. Both > crashes could have inflicted serious injury if the harness had been > attached to the tail. The pilot, of the previous crash, suggested to NOT > attach harness to tail and was thankful that he hadn't. > > Phil > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , or "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ . > AOL and Compuserve do NOT pass KRNet email, so use some other system! > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:09:16 -0500 To: "Philip J. Visconti" ,krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Jerry Mahurin" Subject: Re: KR> BYRD CRASH Message-ID: Netters, I think that we have a good shoulder harness attach scheme on the Wannabe. It is a 1 1/2 X 1/8 inch AL angle under the back edge of the luggage shelf (which is a foam and ply sandwich) from longeron to longeron with large hardwood gusset blocks on the longerons. I will try to get some pics posted on www.jerrymahurin.com shortly. It's kinda hard to describe in words. Jerry Mahurin Lugoff, SC On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 23:00:10 -0500 "Philip J. Visconti" wrote: > This is the second crash that has happened where the > plane separated in > back of the seat area. At least, the second of which I am > aware. Both > crashes could have inflicted serious injury if the > harness had been > attached to the tail. The pilot, of the previous crash, > suggested to NOT > attach harness to tail and was thankful that he hadn't. > > Phil > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , or > "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: > krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > . > AOL and Compuserve do NOT pass KRNet email, so use some > other system! > Jerry Mahurin Lugoff, SC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:57:01 -0500 To: viscan@juno.com ("Philip J. Visconti"), krnet@mailinglists.org From: flykrs@netscape.net Subject: RE: KR> BYRD CRASH Message-ID: <0918ABD2.68B5B18B.00062CFF@netscape.net> Phil I'm glad you pointed that fact out ! Any engineering evaluation of any product is educated by failure sequences. When aircraft crash the most precious cargo are the people not the airframe. Remember in private ground school the concept of if you have to crash in the trees aim between two trees to break the wings off to absorb kinetic energy KE=1/2mv2 that way the remaining deceleration (g) force is less. What happened in this BYRD crash is just that, where the aircraft appears to have unfolded and like the hand of the Lord was upon the pilot by enabling him to escape with nothing around him. Another runway crash pictures I remember seeing is that of a KR that just disintegrated and the pilot walked away. It appears that the KR is a good AC to crash in figuratively speaking, in that the survival rate is high when the AC crash in situations where the pilot was doing the best he could to control it. Now other KR crashes like spins and impact with terrain during cruise it really wouldn't matter what kinda restraint much less how the AC is designed because survival would be unlikely. One design concept that could be integrated into the KR is more occupant protection by structural caging module. It remains while the airframe breaks away. That may be difficult to measure in value but it has merit in some types of KR crashes that occur. But were all wanting to fly krs and not crash em so we got to think fly. flykrs Philip J. Visconti" wrote: >This is the second crash that has happened where the plane separated in >back of the seat area. At least, the second of which I am aware. Both >crashes could have inflicted serious injury if the harness had been >attached to the tail. The pilot, of the previous crash, suggested to NOT >attach harness to tail and was thankful that he hadn't. > >Phil >________________________________________________________________ >GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , or "reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ . >AOL and Compuserve do NOT pass KRNet email, so use some other system! > > -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:09:37 -0500 To: lacapps@attbi.com From: "Philip J. Visconti" Cc: langford@hiwaay.net, krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> BYRD CRASH Message-ID: <20011212.120938.-384293.0.viscan@juno.com> Gee Larry, I thought others might be interested in flight safety, even if you aren't Phil ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:23:35 -0800 To: "Daniel Heath" , , "Philip J. Visconti" From: "Willy Trinker" Subject: RE: KR> BYRD CRASH Message-ID: Hello Netters, Has anybody installed a Y-yoke recoil system with the recoil mechanism attached to the rear of the rear center spar. And if so - any pictures available? Greetings, Willy T. -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Heath [mailto:DanRH@att.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 3:28 AM To: krnet@mailinglists.org; Philip J. Visconti Subject: Re: KR> BYRD CRASH Several months ago, we has some lively discussions about the attach point for the shoulder harness. I had intended to attach on this plane, as I did on the Little Beast, to the tail wheel bracket. The discussion convinced me to change that. It is going to be attached to a re-enforced bracket built to and behind the shelf. I am not convinced that this is strong enough, but it is the best we could come up with, so it is going to have to do. I really think that this attach point needs to be built into the fuselage as it is being built. I am not an engineer, so I don't have a plan, but this really needs to become part of the design of this craft. I think that it is a serious feature that is missing. Daniel R. Heath WWW.EAA242.ORG See our KR2 at: www.JerryMahurin.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip J. Visconti" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 11:00 PM Subject: KR> BYRD CRASH > This is the second crash that has happened where the plane separated in > back of the seat area. At least, the second of which I am aware. Both > crashes could have inflicted serious injury if the harness had been > attached to the tail. The pilot, of the previous crash, suggested to NOT > attach harness to tail and was thankful that he hadn't. > > Phil > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , or "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ . > AOL and Compuserve do NOT pass KRNet email, so use some other system! > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , or "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ . AOL and Compuserve do NOT pass KRNet email, so use some other system! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:35:02 -0600 To: "KRNet" From: "Robert Stone" Subject: Byrd Crash Message-ID: <000801c18354$dd1f6bc0$ebd8fea9@pavilion> ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C18322.90C8F3E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Netters: Can anyone give me a URL where I can see pictures of the Byrd = crash and also an explanation of what happened. I have seen at least = one URL but every time I try to access it I get: "This page cannot be = shown" Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx. rlspjs@dashlink.com ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C18322.90C8F3E0-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:09:23 -0500 To: , From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR> BYRD CRASH Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20011212200604.00a253e0@pop.erols.com> --=====================_2177604==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:28 AM 12/12/2001 -0500, Daniel Heath wrote: >Several months ago, we has some lively discussions about the attach point >for the shoulder harness. I had intended to attach on this plane, as I did >on the Little Beast, to the tail wheel bracket. The discussion convinced me >to change that. It is going to be attached to a re-enforced bracket built >to and behind the shelf. I am not convinced that this is strong enough, but >it is the best we could come up with, so it is going to have to do. I thought the same thing, as well as being concerned with roll-over protection. I made a roll bar from 4130 steel and used it as the shoulder harness attachment point. It shows up in several of the photos on my web site. It attaches to the fuselage with bearing plates that are glued to the bottom longeron and one of the verticals, the upper shear web, and triangulated to the top longeron. Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com Bumpass, Va Visit my web sites at: KR2XL construction: http://users.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Aviation Surplus: http://users.erols.com/donreid/Airparts.htm EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org Ultralights: http://usua250.org VA EAA State Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org --=====================_2177604==_.ALT-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:08:51 -0700 To: Daniel Heath , krnet@mailinglists.org, Philip J. Visconti From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Re: KR> BYRD CRASH Message-Id: <20011213020158.BQBW8530.femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com@cx239334-a> There are two solutions I have seen, one of which is out on the web some place. Monte Miller submitted an article to the paper KR newsletter showing a steel bar with "C" channel ends which are bolted to a length of OAK (about 12" or so) The Oak is laminated to the spruce top longeron, and has to be long enough to distribute the impact forces across a long enough area so that it doesn't sheer off at or around the glue joint. This looked good, and it is the solution I went with. I also saw a "Rand" approved seat back shelf drawing which I think is available on the internet someplace. It involves building up the shelf region behind the seat for attaching the belts. I'm not sure we can really draw any conclusions from the post crash photos of the tail section. One would need to see a slow motion film with crash dummies to tell for sure when the tail detaches, and if it is after the harness has safely restrained the passengers. If you've ever watched the crash films of cars, you can see a lot happens before things come to rest. My choice of seat belt attach points was more one of personal preference and a "hunch" and not entirely 100% sure that it is better than using the tailcone. 12/12/2001 4:28:10 AM, "Daniel Heath" wrote: >Several months ago, we has some lively discussions about the attach point >for the shoulder harness. I had intended to attach on this plane, as I did >on the Little Beast, to the tail wheel bracket. The discussion convinced me >to change that. It is going to be attached to a re-enforced bracket built >to and behind the shelf. I am not convinced that this is strong enough, but >it is the best we could come up with, so it is going to have to do. > >I really think that this attach point needs to be built into the fuselage as >it is being built. I am not an engineer, so I don't have a plan, but this >really needs to become part of the design of this craft. I think that it is >a serious feature that is missing. > >Daniel R. Heath > >WWW.EAA242.ORG > >See our KR2 at: > >www.JerryMahurin.com > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Philip J. Visconti" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 11:00 PM >Subject: KR> BYRD CRASH > > >> This is the second crash that has happened where the plane separated in >> back of the seat area. At least, the second of which I am aware. Both >> crashes could have inflicted serious injury if the harness had been >> attached to the tail. The pilot, of the previous crash, suggested to NOT >> attach harness to tail and was thankful that he hadn't. >> >> Phil >> ________________________________________________________________ >> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , or "reply all" >> >> To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org >> >> See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ . >> AOL and Compuserve do NOT pass KRNet email, so use some other system! >> > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , or "reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ . >AOL and Compuserve do NOT pass KRNet email, so use some other system! > > Ross Youngblood rossy65@home.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:18:54 -0700 To: flykrs@netscape.net, viscan@juno.com ("Philip J. Visconti"), krnet@mailinglists.org From: Ross Youngblood Subject: RE: KR> BYRD CRASH Message-Id: <20011213021201.CZCA25880.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@cx239334-a> I think the Byrd crash photos show that a lot of energy gets absorbed in the Spruce at impact. This is consistant with the KR-1 crash photos you mentioned too. I'm not a strength of materials person, but I wonder if wood doesn't offer better energy dissapating characteristics than other aircraft materials in a crash situation. Perhaps if cars were made out of wood, crash test results would be very interesting. -- Ross 12/12/2001 8:57:01 AM, flykrs@netscape.net wrote: >Phil I'm glad you pointed that fact out ! Any engineering evaluation of any product is educated by failure sequences. When aircraft crash the most precious cargo are the people not the airframe. Remember in private ground school the concept of if you have to crash in the trees aim between two trees to break the wings off to absorb kinetic energy KE=1/2mv2 that way the remaining deceleration (g) force is less. > What happened in this BYRD crash is just that, where the aircraft appears to have unfolded and like the hand of the Lord was upon the pilot by enabling him to escape with nothing around him. > Another runway crash pictures I remember seeing is that of a KR that just disintegrated and the pilot walked away. > It appears that the KR is a good AC to crash in figuratively speaking, in that the survival rate is high when the AC crash in situations where the pilot was doing the best he could to control it. > Now other KR crashes like spins and impact with terrain during cruise it really wouldn't matter what kinda restraint much less how the AC is designed because survival would be unlikely. > One design concept that could be integrated into the KR is more occupant protection by structural caging module. It remains while the airframe breaks away. That may be difficult to measure in value but it has merit in >some types of KR crashes that occur. But were all wanting to fly krs and not crash em so we got to think fly. flykrs > > >Philip J. Visconti" wrote: > >>This is the second crash that has happened where the plane separated in >>back of the seat area. At least, the second of which I am aware. Both >>crashes could have inflicted serious injury if the harness had been >>attached to the tail. The pilot, of the previous crash, suggested to NOT >>attach harness to tail and was thankful that he hadn't. >> >>Phil >>________________________________________________________________ >>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >>Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , or "reply all" >> >>To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >>For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org >> >>See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ . >>AOL and Compuserve do NOT pass KRNet email, so use some other system! >> >> >-- > > > > >__________________________________________________________________ >Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ > >Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , or "reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ . >AOL and Compuserve do NOT pass KRNet email, so use some other system! > > Ross Youngblood rossy65@home.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:53:49 -0800 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Sean Clay" Subject: weight and balance Message-ID: Ok more questions can anyone tell me how to creat a weight and balance? _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 06:22:31 -0500 To: "Sean Clay" , From: "Daniel Heath" Subject: Re: KR> weight and balance Message-ID: <001c01c182ff$4ad83800$2b2c5d0c@scana.com> Good question. I have another one. How do you weigh your planes? I had to take the Little Beast to Eagle Aviation to have it weighed and I think that I was lucky that they agreed to do it. But that was a long time ago. Daniel R. Heath WWW.EAA242.ORG See our KR2 at: www.JerryMahurin.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Clay" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 10:53 PM Subject: KR> weight and balance > > Ok more questions can anyone tell me how to creat a weight and balance? > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , or "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ . > AOL and Compuserve do NOT pass KRNet email, so use some other system! > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 06:14:07 -0600 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: larry flesner Subject: Re: KR> weight and balance Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20011212061407.0086c100@pop3.norton.antivirus> Sean Clay wrote: >Ok more questions can anyone tell me how to creat a weight and balance? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= There is a section in your plans book that shows you how to do a weight and balance. Also, if you can't afford to purchase a set of Tony Bingalis books, borrow them from someone. They show in very simple detail how to do it. Third option, join a local chapter of EAA and have a Technical councelor help you or one of the members that knows how it's done. Bathroom scales will work in the early stages to get some ball park numbers. Compare the three scales to one another to make sure they are close. Do your final W.and B. on a set of certified scales for your inspection paperwork. Fourth option, any A. and P. can tell you how it's done. Questions ???? You are building from plans, I hope !!! :) Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 07:45:55 -0800 To: "Sean Clay" , From: "idrawtobuild" Subject: Re: KR> weight and balance Message-ID: <004901c18324$16f375c0$6e13fea9@net> Sean Send me a fax number and I'll send you a W&B calc sheet. Can't scan to 'e' Greg Martin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Clay" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 7:53 PM Subject: KR> weight and balance > > Ok more questions can anyone tell me how to creat a weight and balance? > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , or "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ . > AOL and Compuserve do NOT pass KRNet email, so use some other system! > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:33:22 -0500 To: clay1pilot@Hotmail.com From: virgnvs@juno.com Cc: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> weight and balance Message-ID: <20011212.124137.-126671.2.virgnvs@juno.com> This is listed in the plans, Virg On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:53:49 -0800 "Sean Clay" writes: > > Ok more questions can anyone tell me how to creat a weight and > balance? > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , or "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ . > AOL and Compuserve do NOT pass KRNet email, so use some other > system! > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:03:52 -0700 To: Daniel Heath , Sean Clay , krnet@mailinglists.org From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Re: KR> weight and balance Message-Id: <20011213015659.SQMM936.femail5.sdc1.sfba.home.com@cx239334-a> I have read that its not OK to use a bathroom scale, then in Vaughn Askue's book, I read it is OK to use a bathroom scale, provided you use the same scale for all three measurement points. I used three different bathroom scales and averaged the three readings after rotating them three times. This was for earlier preliminary weigh-in's. I didn't see significant differences between the scales in my case, so I am assuming that the scales were reasonably accurate. Although to be truly accurate you could calibrate the scales with known weights around the values you expect to read. I think that that bathroom scales will have different errors at differing weights (i.e. they are non-linear). On the one hand, the KR is lighter, so a given error on a bathroom scale will be a greater percentage of your measurement. On the other hand, the moment arms are shorter than other airplanes, so the multiplied moment error may not be as bad. Larger aircraft are simply too heavy to be used with bathroom scales unless you use a fulcrum type arrangment to divide the load the scales see in half. My take, if you have access to calibrated aircraft scales... use them. If not, using bathroom scales will probaby be pretty close. -- Ross 12/12/2001 4:22:31 AM, "Daniel Heath" wrote: >Good question. I have another one. How do you weigh your planes? I had to >take the Little Beast to Eagle Aviation to have it weighed and I think that >I was lucky that they agreed to do it. But that was a long time ago. > >Daniel R. Heath > >WWW.EAA242.ORG > >See our KR2 at: > >www.JerryMahurin.com > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Sean Clay" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 10:53 PM >Subject: KR> weight and balance > > >> >> Ok more questions can anyone tell me how to creat a weight and balance? >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: >> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , or "reply all" >> >> To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org >> >> See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ . >> AOL and Compuserve do NOT pass KRNet email, so use some other system! >> >> > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , or "reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ . >AOL and Compuserve do NOT pass KRNet email, so use some other system! > > Ross Youngblood rossy65@home.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:18:57 +1100 To: From: "Phillip Matheson" Subject: VW engines. Message-ID: <008d01c182c4$1f838b40$0100a8c0@barry> ------=_NextPart_000_008A_01C18320.51AD7980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All you KRneters, You may be interested in a company in Australia that build VW aero = engines. Very nice work. parts@nw-engines.com regards Phillip Matheson matheson@dodo.com.au ------=_NextPart_000_008A_01C18320.51AD7980-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:25:22 -0500 To: dawnpatrol@onemain.com From: virgnvs@juno.com Cc: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Plane crazy/fuslage Message-ID: <20011212.124137.-126671.0.virgnvs@juno.com> If you are going to all that trouble, just start with building new sides, longer and put together wider. Virg On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:00:42 -0600 writes: > Netters, I think I need to clear something up on my wife saying that > I am "plane crazy". > She is just kidding when she says I'm "plane crazy". She likes to > fly and is just as "plane crazy" as me. > I'm one of the lucky ones with a wife that is just as crazy about > flying as I am. She has a servere case of arthritis but that doesn't > stop her. I have to help her into the plane. She likes to ride along > and take pictures and act as my co-pilot. > She likes aviation so well that I'm naming the KR in her name. The > "MISS CAROLYN" > > Now on making the fuslage wider I liked the suggestion of removing > the skins and putting in longer cross members. I'm still thinking > about what to do, If I do anything at all. I don't have the skin on > the bottem yet so that would make it easier to do something with it. > I will keep you posted. > Mike T. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:56:43 -0500 To: "krnet" From: "w.g. kirkland" Subject: fuel injection systems Message-ID: <029d01c18336$5c931420$27b45bd1@utboopki> ------=_NextPart_000_029A_01C1830C.72CA6EC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looking for fuel injection systems? Try http//www = sdsefi.com/aircraft.html (simple digital systems W.G.(Bill) KIRKLAND kirkland@vianet.on.ca ------=_NextPart_000_029A_01C1830C.72CA6EC0-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:32:48 -0500 To: "w.g. kirkland" ,"krnet" From: "Jerry Mahurin" Subject: Re: KR> fuel injection systems Message-ID: Bill, Something is wrong with that link..... Maybe you have a space where there should be a '.'. On Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:56:43 -0500 "w.g. kirkland" wrote: > Looking for fuel injection systems? Try http//www > sdsefi.com/aircraft.html (simple digital systems > W.G.(Bill) KIRKLAND > kirkland@vianet.on.ca Jerry Mahurin Lugoff, SC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 17:10:22 -0800 (PST) To: Jerry Mahurin , "w.g. kirkland" , krnet From: David Hartz Subject: Re: KR> fuel injection systems Message-ID: <20011213011022.60917.qmail@web14702.mail.yahoo.com> A automtive luel injection system should be easy to convert over for aircraft use! Honda,Nissan,Toyota all have simple systems that could be modified with a little creativity.The costs would be a bit easier to swallow.Just an idea,food for thought. Dave --- Jerry Mahurin wrote: > Bill, > > Something is wrong with that link..... Maybe you > have a > space where there should be a '.'. > > On Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:56:43 -0500 > "w.g. kirkland" wrote: > > Looking for fuel injection systems? Try http//www > > sdsefi.com/aircraft.html (simple digital systems > > W.G.(Bill) KIRKLAND > > kirkland@vianet.on.ca > > Jerry Mahurin > Lugoff, SC > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , > or "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: > krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: > krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at > http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ . > AOL and Compuserve do NOT pass KRNet email, so use > some other system! > ===== DAVID HARTZ,WILLITS,CALIF. DEWRENCHER@PRODIGY.NET __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:53:58 -0800 (PST) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Frank Ross Subject: Byrd Crash web pix Message-ID: <20011212225358.43850.qmail@web14002.mail.yahoo.com> Bob, Go to Don Reid's EAA chapter 231 (Richmond VA) site. http://www.eaa231.org Click on "Photos" at the top and look for the link to the "Byrd Crash". I'm not sure what happened, but I hope if I break my plane, everyone will keep it real quiet until I get the wreckage buried somewhere. :] That's also a real nice site to look through. Good pictures of great aircraft. Thanks Don, Frank http://www.eaa231.org/ --- Robert Stone wrote: > Netters: Can anyone give me a URL where I can see > pictures of the Byrd crash and also an explanation > of what happened. I have seen at least one URL but > every time I try to access it I get: "This page > cannot be shown" > > Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx. > rlspjs@dashlink.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:05:16 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR> Byrd Crash web pix Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20011212200219.00a21560@pop.erols.com> --=====================_1930533==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:53 PM 12/12/2001 -0800, Frank Ross wrote: >Bob, >Go to Don Reid's EAA chapter 231 (Richmond VA) site. >http://www.eaa231.org >Click on "Photos" at the top and look for the link to >the "Byrd Crash". > > every time I try to access it I get: "This page > > cannot be shown" If you are still having trouble, the direct URL (no frames) is http://www.eaa231.org/photos/crash.htm You should not have trouble with the Eaa 231 web site. It works fine for older versions of Netscape and Explorer. I always check with older versions to make sure that everyone can access them. Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com Bumpass, Va Visit my web sites at: KR2XL construction: http://users.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Aviation Surplus: http://users.erols.com/donreid/Airparts.htm EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org Ultralights: http://usua250.org VA EAA State Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org --=====================_1930533==_.ALT-- ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************