From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 31 Jan 2002 23:20:38 -0000 Issue 365 Date: Thursday, January 31, 2002 3:21 PM krnet Digest 31 Jan 2002 23:20:38 -0000 Issue 365 Topics (messages 8620 through 8649): New as504x airfoil questions? 8620 by: Larry A. Capps 8621 by: macwood 8623 by: Mark Langford Re: The stretch 8622 by: larry flesner 8624 by: Mark Langford 8627 by: dawnpatrol.onemain.com 8628 by: Mike Mims 8629 by: virgnvs.juno.com 8633 by: Frank Ross 8635 by: Mark Langford 8636 by: Jerry Mahurin Center section span and trailering/storage for off season flying and savings of hangar rent. 8625 by: Mr. Bryce Guenther 8630 by: RONALD.FREIBERGER 8631 by: Ross Youngblood 8642 by: Daniel Heath 8643 by: flykr2s.execpc.com Dihedral and as5048 and 120+ HP 8626 by: Rick 8637 by: Mark Langford Props INC 8632 by: Ross Youngblood 8638 by: WA7YXF.aol.com Trailers for KRs 8634 by: Frank Ross Re: Winglets and VG's 8639 by: Dale Baldwin 8644 by: Jerry Mahurin 8645 by: Jim Covington 8646 by: dawnpatrol.onemain.com 8647 by: Jim Covington 8649 by: dawnpatrol.onemain.com props Inc vs ed sturba 8640 by: Flymaca711689.cs.com 8641 by: Daniel Heath VG's 8648 by: idrawtobuild Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:58:28 -0600 To: From: "Larry A. Capps" Subject: New as504x airfoil questions? Message-ID: <000401c1a918$77096c20$0300a8c0@24.181.195.150> Decalage is the term used to describe the relationship or angle between a wing and a horizontal control surface on the tail. Larry A. Capps Naperville, IL -----Original Message----- Decalage ???? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:41:49 -0000 To: From: "macwood" Cc: Subject: Re: KR> New as504x airfoil questions? Message-ID: <000d01c1a972$5999c4a0$e72b3c3e@tinypc> Is decalage the same as "longitudinal dihedral"? That used to mean the difference between the angle of mainplane incidence and that of the horizontal stab.Gives pitch stability. Mac W ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry A. Capps" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 10:58 PM Subject: KR> New as504x airfoil questions? > Decalage is the term used to describe the relationship or angle between a > wing and a horizontal control surface on the tail. > > > Larry A. Capps > Naperville, IL > > > -----Original Message----- > > > Decalage ???? > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 07:08:06 -0600 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> New as504x airfoil questions? Message-ID: <000c01c1a98f$2918c070$5f0ca58c@mlangford> Mac W wrote: > Is decalage the same as "longitudinal dihedral"? That used to mean the > difference between the angle of mainplane incidence and that of the > horizontal stab.Gives pitch stability. I don't know about "longitudinal dihedral" (never heard that one) but it IS just the angular difference between the main wing incidence and the incidence of the horizontal stabilizer with repect to the longitudinal axis. Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 06:35:26 -0600 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: larry flesner Subject: Re: The stretch Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020130063526.008af6f0@mail.midwest.net> At 08:55 PM 1/28/02 -0800, Frank Ross wrote: >Will you need to lengthen your center spars? >Since you'll have slightly less wing with the wider >fuselage, and a much larger fuselage, will the same >wing do the job? >Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The KR seen in the KR ads had the center section shortened by (I think) about 12 inches for more speed. I'm sure this increases the T.O. and landings speeds a slight amount but the aircraft flies quite nicely. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 07:30:01 -0600 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Re: The stretch Message-ID: <000a01c1a992$38f53d40$5f0ca58c@mlangford> Larry Flesner wrote: > The KR seen in the KR ads had the center section shortened > by (I think) about 12 inches for more speed. I'm sure this > increases the T.O. and landings speeds a slight amount but > the aircraft flies quite nicely. Larry, I think his stub wings are really almost non-existent, but I think he extended the outer wings to make up much of the difference. I'm operating on memory here, so maybe Ron Lee (the current owner of Roy Marsh's plane) will chime in here. But I think where the silver paint ends is where the wing starts (see http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kroym.html ). Ron ought to know for sure, if he's still with us. Roy's plane used the 23012 airfoil, one that is notorious for its nasty stall characteristics (despite the fact that it was used on several spam cans). The airfoil is also thinner than the RAF48 (12% rather than 15%), so Roy beefed up the spars by glueing extra 5/8x5/8 spruces strips to each of the four corners of the main spar to turn it into an I beam. His son is an aero engineer. Speed was his main goal, and from what I could tell, his landing speed was somewhat higher than most KRs. I always smile when I think about RR pooh-poohing changes such as the new airfoil on one hand, while pointing out the speed record set by Roy Marsh with his entirely different wing on the other. But to answer Frank's question, if the weight goes up and the wing stays the same size or gets smaller, the wing loading goes up. That's bad if you want to land slowly, but good if you want a smoother ride in rough air at high speed. Since I have huge flaps, I'm building my wings without the foam spars, shaving about 14" off of each wing tip. I'll bet my plane will land as slow as any other KR of comparable weight, but will ride better in turbulence. Later I may make my own wingtip extensions for high altitude flying, if I find the need (and the time). I should mention that Marty Roberts hacked off several feet of his wings once to improve top end. He hated the "improvement", and quickly grafted them back on again... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 15:15:49 -0600 To: "Frank Ross" , From: Subject: Re: KR> Re: The stretch Message-ID: <000901c1a9d3$5e228a00$de11f8d1@matandcat> Frank, I didn't widen the bottem of the fuslage from the rear spar forward. but I did widen the top. I spread the top about 2" at the top logeron above the rear spar and continued to spread the top logerons going back untill it blended with the portion I cut off. I spread the bottem logerons starting at the rear spar 0" going toward the rear until it blended with the portion I cut off. I also squeezed together top and bottem logerons on the cut-off portion. This resulted in no change taking place in the amount of wing area. I think I should point out that spreading the top logerons at the rear spar results in a slight dip in the top logerons. I wasn't too concerend about this slight dip though. I had a transit level set up to check these elevations. My only concern was to see to it that the top logerons maintained the same elevation at the front of the plane as the top logerons at the tail. As far as the slight dip in the top logerons are concerned, I will compensate for it when I get arround to building the turdle deck. I don't have any plans to make the wings longer yet. I would like to get a little bit more lifting capability because I weigh 215lbs. The problem with making the wings longer is that the extra drag will slow you down. I will take another look at that consideration when I get futher down the line. I may well have to pay the extra drag and extend the wings a little. I have been thinking about building a couple of different wingtip designs which would be detachable so that I could exchange them as needed. One set for speed and another for lift. Maybe some of the other netters out there have some Ideas on this. Winglets ect. Mike T. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Ross" To: Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 10:55 PM Subject: KR> Re: The stretch > Will you need to lengthen your center spars? > Since you'll have slightly less wing with the wider > fuselage, and a much larger fuselage, will the same > wing do the job? > > > > ===== > Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! > http://auctions.yahoo.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 13:19:48 -0800 (PST) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Mike Mims Subject: Re: KR> Re: The stretch Message-ID: <20020130211948.15617.qmail@web10801.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1989654374-1012425588=:10477 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think (and yes it hurts) that when talking a matter of inches it’s a non-issue. The extra flat area created by the additional width of the belly of the fuselage will make as much if not more lift at higher angles of attack (due to deflection) than the missing inches of the inner wing section. And at lower angles of attack (IE high speeds) you are making to much lift anyway. > Will you need to lengthen your center spars? > Since you'll have slightly less wing with the wider > fuselage, and a much larger fuselage, will the same > wing do the job? > > > > ===== > Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions Great stuff seeking new owners! Bid now! --0-1989654374-1012425588=:10477-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 16:41:08 -0500 To: dawnpatrol@onemain.com From: virgnvs@juno.com Cc: kae_ar@yahoo.com, krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Re: The stretch Message-ID: <20020130.164322.-429331.0.virgnvs@juno.com> Whittman triangular tips, Virg On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 15:15:49 -0600 writes: > Frank, I didn't widen the bottem of the fuslage from the rear spar > forward. > but I did widen the top. I spread the top about 2" at the top > logeron above > the rear spar and continued to spread the top logerons going back > untill it > blended with the portion I cut off. I spread the bottem logerons > starting > at the rear spar 0" going toward the rear until it blended with the > portion > I cut off. I also squeezed together top and bottem logerons on the > cut-off > portion. > This resulted in no change taking place in the amount of wing area. > I think I should point out that spreading the top logerons at the > rear spar > results in a slight dip in the top logerons. I wasn't too concerend > about > this slight dip though. I had a transit level set up to check these > elevations. My only concern was to see to it that the top logerons > maintained the same elevation at the front of the plane as the top > logerons > at the tail. > As far as the slight dip in the top logerons are concerned, I will > compensate for it when I get arround to building the turdle deck. > I don't have any plans to make the wings longer yet. I would like to > get a > little bit more lifting capability because I weigh 215lbs. The > problem with > making the wings longer is that the extra drag will slow you down. I > will > take another look at that consideration when I get futher down the > line. I > may well have to pay the extra drag and extend the wings a little. I > have > been thinking about building a couple of different wingtip designs > which > would be detachable so that I could exchange them as needed. One set > for > speed and another for lift. > Maybe some of the other netters out there have some Ideas on this. > Winglets > ect. Mike T. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frank Ross" > To: > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 10:55 PM > Subject: KR> Re: The stretch > > > > Will you need to lengthen your center spars? > > Since you'll have slightly less wing with the wider > > fuselage, and a much larger fuselage, will the same > > wing do the job? > > > > > > > > ===== > > Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX, > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! > > http://auctions.yahoo.com > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply > all" > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply > all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 19:28:47 -0800 (PST) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Frank Ross Subject: Re: KR> Re: The stretch Message-ID: <20020131032847.31451.qmail@web14001.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Mike, The other answers from Larry Flesner and Mark Langford also provided insights I was unaware of. Thanks to all for your time and effort. I was hoping to be the first to put vertical winglets on my KR, but I was, like everyone else, really impressed with the KR2S that came in to the Gathering this year with them. Would be nice to have them removeable to see what kind of difference they make. Anything that would give a slower stall speed without significantly effecting the cruise speed would be a welcome addition, I'd think. Frank --- dawnpatrol@onemain.com wrote: > Frank, I didn't widen the bottem of the fuslage from > the rear spar forward..... > Maybe some of the other netters out there have some > Ideas on this. Winglets > ect. Mike T. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:43:44 -0600 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Re: The stretch Message-ID: <000b01c1aa09$7be446b0$7600a8c0@athlon600> Frank Ross wrote: > I was hoping to be the first to put vertical winglets > on my KR Frank, you missed the Gathering this year, didn't you? See Gene's new KR2S at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/pinebluff2001/pages/01092111.htm , and even more of the Gathering at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/pinebluff2001/ . I once said that I'd add captions and fix this Gathering page to where it was similar to my other stuff, but I haven't had the chance yet... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:02:50 -0500 To: "Mark Langford" , From: "Jerry Mahurin" Subject: Re: KR> Re: The stretch Message-ID: Frank, et al, You can see even more pics of the last KR gathering on: http://www.jerrymahurin.com Jerry Mahurin Lugoff, SC On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:43:44 -0600 "Mark Langford" wrote: >Frank Ross wrote: > >> I was hoping to be the first to put vertical winglets >> on my KR > >Frank, you missed the Gathering this year, didn't you? > See Gene's new KR2S >at >http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/pinebluff2001/pages/01092111.htm >, and >even more of the Gathering at >http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/pinebluff2001/ . I once >said that I'd add >captions and fix this Gathering page to where it was >similar to my other >stuff, but I haven't had the chance yet... > >Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama >mailto:langford@hiwaay.net >see KR2S project N56ML at >http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT >"reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: >krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: >krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at >http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > Jerry Mahurin Lugoff, SC http://www.jerrymahurin.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 13:36:35 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: flyKRS@netscape.net (Mr. Bryce Guenther) Subject: Center section span and trailering/storage for off season flying and savings of hangar rent. Message-ID: <64A6A1C9.60D755B6.0006291F@netscape.net> To many who desire trailer storage for their KR and find out only after its completed that do to the width of centersection how much more convenient it would have been if the centersection was narrower. This would facilite the wing panels Leading edge down to be transported on the one trailer on both sides of the wing stubs. This might be a mute point but those KRs under construction might be aware of this design feature because it makes a big difference when you have to buy or rent or build a long trailer or rent storage space. Comments any one!! flyKRS -- Flying is Fun and a Thrill that nearly nothing else can compare. __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 19:53:40 -0500 To: "KRNET" , "Mr. Bryce Guenther" From: "RONALD.FREIBERGER" Subject: RE: KR> Center section span and trailering/storage for off season flying and savings of hangar rent. Message-ID: Yes,when I needed to move my project, it was a real pain because the wheel tread was a few inches wider thatn most trailer or car haulers. If I were re-doing it, i'd make the tread fit a car hauler trailer from U-haul. Also, I'd not have that rudder post sticking up in tha air for a couple of years while I was dawdling around. Mine may yet have a Jodel/ Chris Heintz all moving rudder. Ron Freiberger... mailto:ron.martha@mindspring.com -----Original Message----- From: Mr. Bryce Guenther [mailto:flyKRS@netscape.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 1:37 PM To: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: KR> Center section span and trailering/storage for off season flying and savings of hangar rent. To many who desire trailer storage for their KR and find out only after its completed that do to the width of centersection how much more convenient it would have been if the centersection was narrower. This would facilite the wing panels Leading edge down to be transported on the one trailer on both sides of the wing stubs. This might be a mute point but those KRs under construction might be aware of this design feature because it makes a big difference when you have to buy or rent or build a long trailer or rent storage space. Comments any one!! flyKRS -- Flying is Fun and a Thrill that nearly nothing else can compare. __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 19:59:10 -0700 To: flyKRS@netscape.net (Mr. Bryce Guenther), krnet@mailinglists.org From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Re: KR> Center section span and trailering/storage for off season flying and savings of hangar rent. Message-Id: <20020131025043.IWZJ18983.femail26.sdc1.sfba.home.com@rypc> I have found that my 8' wide cargo trailer is BARELY wide enough for my KR-2. The trick I found is to get two 1/4" diameter steel rods to release pressure on the garage door like spring for the ramp. Then I have slack in the two cables that counterbalance the ramp door. Before I used this trick, loading and unloading the KR was a two or three person job, and resulted in severe hangar rash, as the wing attach fittings, fuel lines connections, and fuel sending unit lines would snag on the cables running from the spring to the ramp door. Now I can load and unload the KR myself but it is a trick to get the wing attach fittings to clear the opening. The wing attach to wing attach distance on my KR is 7'2", and the opening is about 7'3" so it is close... after that 8' is plenty of room. Folks with a broadband connection can see my trailer setup at http://n541ry.com. An open trailer would be better for loading/unloading, but I wanted to keep my KR out of the sun so I opted for a more expensive enclosed trailer. The advantages of the cargo trailer over a custom built trailer, is that I can re-sell the trailer at some later date once I get a hangar. I would say cutting another 3"from the center spar would make the KR fit very nicely in an auto/cargo trailer like mine. Mine trailer is a cargo trailer, as it isn't rated for a heavy car. Size wise however it is about the same width, with the wheel wells inside the trailer, tandem axles and electric brakes. I have a 16' trailer, I wanted a 18' or 20' trailer so I would have a mini shop and a place for the wing dolly, but couldn't afford the extra 4 feet at the time. My wings slide under the KR, and one of my two wing dollies stays outside. (one for storage, one for attach/detach) . I've been considering getting an electric wench but so far I haven't needed it too badly, and it's outside the toy budget. My KR has more road miles on it than most... Arizona to Oregon via Van Line, then Oregon to Arizona via the trailer. Enclosed is the way to go... went through a lot of rain coming down from Oregon, and the KR stayed high and dry. Outside storage for the trailer is $30/month, tiedown rates are $52/month near my house to $30/month about 10 miles away. Shaded tiedowns start at $75/month, and hangars are... expensive. If you can hook up with another homebuilder or a C-172 owner, you can sneak your KR in with them and split hangar rent. In Oregon I split my hangar 3 ways and paid 42/month for a nice hangar with electricity. KR1 wings off, my KR-2, and a Zenair zodiac all in the space of a C-172. -- Ross 1/30/2002 11:36:35 AM, flyKRS@netscape.net (Mr. Bryce Guenther) wrote: >To many who desire trailer storage for their KR and find out only after its completed that do to the width of centersection how much more convenient it would have been if the centersection was narrower. This would facilite the wing panels Leading edge down to be transported on the one trailer on both sides of the wing stubs. > This might be a mute point but those KRs under construction might be aware of this design feature because it makes a big difference when you have to buy or rent or build a long trailer or rent storage space. Comments any one!! flyKRS >-- >Flying is Fun and a Thrill that nearly nothing else can compare. > > > >__________________________________________________________________ >Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ > >Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > > Ross Youngblood rossy@cox.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 07:07:19 -0800 To: From: "Daniel Heath" Subject: Re: KR> Center section span and trailering/storage for off season flying and savings of hangar rent. Message-ID: <003301c1aa68$fafe1200$fe2c5d0c@dan> Why would anyone build a KR to fit a trailer? Does it not make a lot more sense to build a trailer to fit a KR? Or.....Why not rent one when you need it? The only reason I can think of, is that it is another way of procrastinating instead of building. Daniel R. Heath www.EAA242.com See our KR2 at: www.JerryMahurin.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Youngblood" To: "Mr. Bryce Guenther" ; Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 6:59 PM Subject: Re: KR> Center section span and trailering/storage for off season flying and savings of hangar rent. > I have found that my 8' wide cargo trailer is BARELY wide enough for my KR-2. The trick I found is > to get two 1/4" diameter steel rods to release pressure on the garage door like spring for the ramp. > Then I have slack in the two cables that counterbalance the ramp door. > > Before I used this trick, loading and unloading the KR was a two or three person job, and resulted in > severe hangar rash, as the wing attach fittings, fuel lines connections, and fuel sending unit lines would > snag on the cables running from the spring to the ramp door. Now I can load and unload the KR myself > but it is a trick to get the wing attach fittings to clear the opening. The wing attach to wing attach distance > on my KR is 7'2", and the opening is about 7'3" so it is close... after that 8' is plenty of room. > Folks with a broadband connection can see my trailer setup at http://n541ry.com. > > An open trailer would be better for loading/unloading, but I wanted to keep my KR out of the sun > so I opted for a more expensive enclosed trailer. The advantages of the cargo trailer over a custom > built trailer, is that I can re-sell the trailer at some later date once I get a hangar. > > I would say cutting another 3"from the center spar would make the KR fit very nicely in an auto/cargo > trailer like mine. Mine trailer is a cargo trailer, as it isn't rated for a heavy car. Size wise however it is > about the same width, with the wheel wells inside the trailer, tandem axles and electric brakes. > I have a 16' trailer, I wanted a 18' or 20' trailer so I would have a mini shop and a place for the wing > dolly, but couldn't afford the extra 4 feet at the time. My wings slide under the KR, and one of my two > wing dollies stays outside. (one for storage, one for attach/detach) . > > I've been considering getting an electric wench but so far I haven't needed it too badly, and it's outside > the toy budget. > > My KR has more road miles on it than most... Arizona to Oregon via Van Line, then Oregon to Arizona > via the trailer. Enclosed is the way to go... went through a lot of rain coming down from Oregon, and the > KR stayed high and dry. Outside storage for the trailer is $30/month, tiedown rates are $52/month near > my house to $30/month about 10 miles away. Shaded tiedowns start at $75/month, and hangars are... > expensive. If you can hook up with another homebuilder or a C-172 owner, you can sneak your KR > in with them and split hangar rent. In Oregon I split my hangar 3 ways and paid 42/month for a nice > hangar with electricity. KR1 wings off, my KR-2, and a Zenair zodiac all in the space of a C-172. > > -- Ross > 1/30/2002 11:36:35 AM, flyKRS@netscape.net (Mr. Bryce Guenther) wrote: > > >To many who desire trailer storage for their KR and find out only after its completed that do to the width of > centersection how much more convenient it would have been if the centersection was narrower. This would facilite the > wing panels Leading edge down to be transported on the one trailer on both sides of the wing stubs. > > This might be a mute point but those KRs under construction might be aware of this design feature because it makes > a big difference when you have to buy or rent or build a long trailer or rent storage space. Comments any one!! flyKRS > >-- > >Flying is Fun and a Thrill that nearly nothing else can compare. > > > > > > > >__________________________________________________________________ > >Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with > Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ > > > >Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > >See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > > > > > > Ross Youngblood > rossy@cox.net > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 07:59:53 -0600 (CST) To: "Daniel Heath" From: flykr2s@execpc.com Cc: Subject: Re: KR> Center section span and trailering/storage for off season flying and savings of hangar rent. Message-Id: <200201311359.HAA93224@nm1.nwbl.wi.voyager.net> Simply get a snowmobile trailer. They are about 8' wide, low and have a solid flat floor. Yes they are open but it is very simple to move a KR on them. They also tilt back to the ground for loading. I used one when I moved and it could have not been easier. Mark Jones > Why would anyone build a KR to fit a trailer? Does it not make a lot more > sense to build a trailer to fit a KR? Or.....Why not rent one when you need > it? > > The only reason I can think of, is that it is another way of procrastinating > instead of building. > > > Daniel R. Heath > > www.EAA242.com > > See our KR2 at: > www.JerryMahurin.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ross Youngblood" > To: "Mr. Bryce Guenther" ; > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 6:59 PM > Subject: Re: KR> Center section span and trailering/storage for off season > flying and savings of hangar rent. > > > > I have found that my 8' wide cargo trailer is BARELY wide enough for my > KR-2. The trick I found is > > to get two 1/4" diameter steel rods to release pressure on the garage door > like spring for the ramp. > > Then I have slack in the two cables that counterbalance the ramp door. > > > > Before I used this trick, loading and unloading the KR was a two or three > person job, and resulted in > > severe hangar rash, as the wing attach fittings, fuel lines connections, > and fuel sending unit lines would > > snag on the cables running from the spring to the ramp door. Now I can > load and unload the KR myself > > but it is a trick to get the wing attach fittings to clear the opening. > The wing attach to wing attach distance > > on my KR is 7'2", and the opening is about 7'3" so it is close... after > that 8' is plenty of room. > > Folks with a broadband connection can see my trailer setup at > http://n541ry.com. > > > > An open trailer would be better for loading/unloading, but I wanted to > keep my KR out of the sun > > so I opted for a more expensive enclosed trailer. The advantages of the > cargo trailer over a custom > > built trailer, is that I can re-sell the trailer at some later date once I > get a hangar. > > > > I would say cutting another 3"from the center spar would make the KR fit > very nicely in an auto/cargo > > trailer like mine. Mine trailer is a cargo trailer, as it isn't rated for > a heavy car. Size wise however it is > > about the same width, with the wheel wells inside the trailer, tandem > axles and electric brakes. > > I have a 16' trailer, I wanted a 18' or 20' trailer so I would have a mini > shop and a place for the wing > > dolly, but couldn't afford the extra 4 feet at the time. My wings slide > under the KR, and one of my two > > wing dollies stays outside. (one for storage, one for attach/detach) . > > > > I've been considering getting an electric wench but so far I haven't > needed it too badly, and it's outside > > the toy budget. > > > > My KR has more road miles on it than most... Arizona to Oregon via Van > Line, then Oregon to Arizona > > via the trailer. Enclosed is the way to go... went through a lot of rain > coming down from Oregon, and the > > KR stayed high and dry. Outside storage for the trailer is $30/month, > tiedown rates are $52/month near > > my house to $30/month about 10 miles away. Shaded tiedowns start at > $75/month, and hangars are... > > expensive. If you can hook up with another homebuilder or a C-172 owner, > you can sneak your KR > > in with them and split hangar rent. In Oregon I split my hangar 3 ways > and paid 42/month for a nice > > hangar with electricity. KR1 wings off, my KR-2, and a Zenair zodiac all > in the space of a C-172. > > > > -- Ross > > 1/30/2002 11:36:35 AM, flyKRS@netscape.net (Mr. Bryce Guenther) wrote: > > > > >To many who desire trailer storage for their KR and find out only after > its completed that do to the width of > > centersection how much more convenient it would have been if the > centersection was narrower. This would facilite the > > wing panels Leading edge down to be transported on the one trailer on both > sides of the wing stubs. > > > This might be a mute point but those KRs under construction might be > aware of this design feature because it makes > > a big difference when you have to buy or rent or build a long trailer or > rent storage space. Comments any one!! flyKRS > > >-- > > >Flying is Fun and a Thrill that nearly nothing else can compare. > > > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________________________________________ > > >Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. > Experience the convenience of buying online with > > Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ > > > > > >Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at > http://webmail.netscape.com/ > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > > > > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > > >See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > > > > > > > > > > Ross Youngblood > > rossy@cox.net > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 12:09:37 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Rick Subject: Dihedral and as5048 and 120+ HP Message-ID: <41ED2F1280124E4D8B88691C9A9B5FDE1971@mail.binoids.com> My project lives again!! I'm just about to set my wing dihedral on the big table using the 5" method. I drilled the spars and bolted the WAF's onto the main centre spars and just stopped and wondered about the 5" dihedral measurement. I sat there thinking that this measurement was originally for a stock KR2 with a RAF airfoil and a lower HP VW engine. Yes... the 2S just inherited this 5" dihedral setup measurement along with a 12" foam extension to the wing. And yes... I need dihedral and I want roll behavior and spiral stability and would like to fly hands off on a long cross country. There were 20 posts last year about what dihedral is. What would the performance / handling effects be if I changed the dihedral angle by altering this measurement to 4.5" or 4" or 6"? Does the new different and taller airfoil and a faster cruise speed factor into this equation? My KR-2S is using the New AS5048 airfoil and will be powered by a presently saw dust covered Corvair engine that will yield 120+ HP. I've been on the KR list for over 3 years and unfortunately have not contributed (sorry) to the list or my project for the last 2 years (you all know the reasons), but for the last 3 weeks I've been at my KR-2S (alias Wing Nut) every day. Hopefully I keep it up. Well I'm off to finish fiber glassing the insulated floor forward of the main spar. Yup... not using plywood there. PS. Please don't respond with the "just stick to the plans emails" because that's just not me. Take Care Rick Hubka Calgary, Alberta Canada rick@hubka.com http://www.hubka.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 22:09:26 -0600 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Dihedral and as5048 and 120+ HP Message-ID: <000701c1aa0d$12d6ac40$7600a8c0@athlon600> Rick Hubka wrote: > What would the performance / handling effects be if I changed the dihedral > angle by altering this measurement to 4.5" or 4" or 6"? Just stick to the plans! I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference between 4.5" or 4" or 6. Or you could start over completely with "bent" spars and it would look really nice... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 20:04:07 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Props INC Message-Id: <20020131025540.IYHD29230.femail37.sdc1.sfba.home.com@rypc> Has anyone been working with Props Inc in Oregon lately. I haven't heard from them on my prop, and when I called today the phone was busy. I need to remind myself to call them daily to get this prop back. In the meantime... got to get the garage cleaned. Ross Youngblood rossy@cox.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 01:22:40 EST To: rossy65@home.com, krnet@mailinglists.org From: WA7YXF@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> Props INC Message-ID: <11c.b8b525b.298a3cb0@aol.com> Ross, It took six months for him to get around to building a prop for me. I called two months after my written order to check progress and was told he had lost my order, so I wrote another order and waited another four months. I found him to respond to email better than by phone. Its a very nice prop and I'm very happy with it. But I don't think I would do business with him again. Lynn Hyder N37LH ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 19:35:10 -0800 (PST) To: KRNET From: Frank Ross Subject: Trailers for KRs Message-ID: <20020131033510.38477.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com> Another idea I've seen that seems to work is a three-wheel motorcycle trailer. Not enclosed tho. Frank __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 04:56:41 -0500 To: "Frank Ross" , From: "Dale Baldwin" Subject: Re: KR> Re: Winglets and VG's Message-ID: <002701c1aa3d$9746a180$2ee85b0c@computername> Has anyone tried vortex generators? ----- Original > I was hoping to be the first to put vertical winglets > on my KR, but I was, like everyone else, really > impressed with the KR2S that came in to the Gathering > this year with them. Would be nice to have them > removeable to see what kind of difference they make. > Anything that would give a slower stall speed without > significantly effecting the cruise speed would be a > welcome addition, I'd think. > Frank > --- dawnpatrol@onemain.com wrote: > > Frank, I didn't widen the bottem of the fuslage from > > the rear spar forward..... > > Maybe some of the other netters out there have some > > Ideas on this. Winglets > > ect. Mike T. > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! > http://auctions.yahoo.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 09:52:46 -0500 To: "Dale Baldwin" , "KRnet" From: "Jerry Mahurin" Subject: Re: KR> Re: Winglets and VG's Message-ID: My first question is: WHY.....??? Besides; vortex generators are to break the air stream loose from a laminar airflow, which the RAF48 is not. Jerry Mahurin Lugoff, SC http://www.jerrymahurin.com On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 04:56:41 -0500 "Dale Baldwin" wrote: >Has anyone tried vortex generators? >----- Original > I was hoping to be the first to put >vertical winglets >> on my KR, but I was, like everyone else, really >> impressed with the KR2S that came in to the Gathering >> this year with them. Would be nice to have them >> removeable to see what kind of difference they make. >> Anything that would give a slower stall speed without >> significantly effecting the cruise speed would be a >> welcome addition, I'd think. >> Frank >> --- dawnpatrol@onemain.com wrote: >> > Frank, I didn't widen the bottem of the fuslage from >> > the rear spar forward..... >> > Maybe some of the other netters out there have some >> > Ideas on this. Winglets >> > ect. Mike T. >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! >> http://auctions.yahoo.com >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT >>"reply all" >> >> To UNsubscribe, e-mail: >>krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: >>krnet-help@mailinglists.org >> >> See the KRNet archives at >>http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ >> > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT >"reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: >krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: >krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at >http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > Jerry Mahurin Lugoff, SC http://www.jerrymahurin.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:03:17 -0500 To: "KRnet" From: "Jim Covington" Subject: RE: KR> Re: Winglets and VG's Message-ID: That's not the purpose of VGs... Properly applied VGs can help lower stall speed without sacrificing cruise speed on certain airfoils. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Mahurin [mailto:jerrymahurin@charter.net] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 09:53 AM To: Dale Baldwin; KRnet Subject: Re: KR> Re: Winglets and VG's My first question is: WHY.....??? Besides; vortex generators are to break the air stream loose from a laminar airflow, which the RAF48 is not. Jerry Mahurin Lugoff, SC http://www.jerrymahurin.com On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 04:56:41 -0500 "Dale Baldwin" wrote: >Has anyone tried vortex generators? >----- Original > I was hoping to be the first to put >vertical winglets >> on my KR, but I was, like everyone else, really >> impressed with the KR2S that came in to the Gathering >> this year with them. Would be nice to have them >> removeable to see what kind of difference they make. >> Anything that would give a slower stall speed without >> significantly effecting the cruise speed would be a >> welcome addition, I'd think. >> Frank >> --- dawnpatrol@onemain.com wrote: >> > Frank, I didn't widen the bottem of the fuslage from >> > the rear spar forward..... >> > Maybe some of the other netters out there have some >> > Ideas on this. Winglets >> > ect. Mike T. >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! >> http://auctions.yahoo.com >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT >>"reply all" >> >> To UNsubscribe, e-mail: >>krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: >>krnet-help@mailinglists.org >> >> See the KRNet archives at >>http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ >> > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT >"reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: >krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: >krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at >http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > Jerry Mahurin Lugoff, SC http://www.jerrymahurin.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 09:52:33 -0600 To: "Dale Baldwin" , "Frank Ross" , From: Subject: Re: KR> Re: Winglets and VG's Message-ID: <004a01c1aa6f$4d85f140$1f11f8d1@matandcat> Dale: I wish I knew more about vortex generators but it is my understanding their purpose is to keep the flow of air over the top of the wing as close to the wing as long as possible and to redirect the flow of the air so as to reduce the amount of turbulent air until it is futher back on the wing or off the trailing edge. If you can reduce turblent air and maintain a more orderly flow of air over the wing, you also reduce drag therefore you can increase speed and lift. You also reduce stall speed and handling qualities improve because of a more orderly flow over and under control surfaces. If Vortex generaters work for the wings, then I think some consideration should be given to the fuslage and elevator. After all the flow of air moving arround the fuslage and elevator is approx. the same as that arround the wings. The key to it is finding out where the turbulent air is occuring. I'm just going to take a wild guess and say it is at the high point of the wing in level flight or where the fuslage begins to taper from the max. width of the fuslage especially at the intersection of the wing and fuslage. Without having a wind tunnel it would be somewhat difficult to determine turblent locations. I would think VGs would have to go somewhere in front of these turblent locations. If anybody has more info on VGs I would like to hear from you. I would especially like to know about VGs above or under the elevator. Mike T. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Baldwin" To: "Frank Ross" ; Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 3:56 AM Subject: Re: KR> Re: Winglets and VG's > Has anyone tried vortex generators? > ----- Original > I was hoping to be the first to put vertical winglets > > on my KR, but I was, like everyone else, really > > impressed with the KR2S that came in to the Gathering > > this year with them. Would be nice to have them > > removeable to see what kind of difference they make. > > Anything that would give a slower stall speed without > > significantly effecting the cruise speed would be a > > welcome addition, I'd think. > > Frank > > --- dawnpatrol@onemain.com wrote: > > > Frank, I didn't widen the bottem of the fuslage from > > > the rear spar forward..... > > > Maybe some of the other netters out there have some > > > Ideas on this. Winglets > > > ect. Mike T. > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! > > http://auctions.yahoo.com > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:30:19 -0500 To: From: "Jim Covington" Subject: RE: KR> Re: Winglets and VG's Message-ID: VGs, unfortunately, don't reduce drag all the time. If they did, you'd see them everywhere! :) What they actually do is to create small vortices or tornados - hence the name 'vortex generator.' The axis of rotation of the vortex is parallel to the airflow. This, by its nature, creates drag. You're taking energy from the airflow and using it to spin off small tornados. So what's the advantage? These horizontal tornados don't follow the same rules as 'regular' airflow when it comes to separation from the wing. Note that we're not talking about laminar vs. turbulent airflow here - we're talking about the boundary layer, which can be both laminar and turbulent while still staying attached. A stall occurs when the angle of attack gets so great that the boundary layer separates from the wing and you get a flow reversal along the trailing edge. With the boundary layer separated, you lose lift and the wing drops. A boundary layer that is spinning in a vortex will have a greater tendency to stay attached, and therefore the wing will stall at a higher angle of attack. It's just a greater tendency, and not a magic bullet, so the wing will still stall eventually. The first thing to remember about laminar vs. non-laminar airfoils is that all airfoils have some laminar flow (near the leading edge) and they all have some turbulent flow (near the trailing edge.) The label 'laminar' should really be 'highly laminar.' 'Non-laminar' airfoils have their boundary layer transition from turbulent to laminar very quickly, while some 'laminar' airfoils maintain laminar flow over the first 50-60% of the chord. Laminar boundary layer flow produces less drag than turbulent boundary layer flow (more desirable) but a laminar boundary layer has less of a tendency to stay attached to the wing, which produces a more abrupt stall (less desirable.) Why don't VGs (usually) reduce cruise speed? VGs will reduce the height of the boundary layer along the rear portion of the wing, where you normally have turbulent flow. This can reduce drag enough to offset the original drag penalty. You won't see VGs on highly laminar-flow wings. The VG needs to be position at approximately the normal transition from laminar to turbulent flow. For laminar flow wings, this is very far aft. But VGs also need to be ahead of the point of flow separation in a stall - they can't reattach a flow that's not there. The separation point on a laminar flow wing in a stall is relatively far forward compared to the turbulent transition zone. This is one reason why you get such a nasty stall from laminar wings. But you can see it also means there's no good place to put VGs on a highly laminar flow wing. VGs can also be placed on elevators and rudders to increase the angle of attack required for separation (e.g. stall.) This can be critical for twins when they lose an engine - the rudder becomes *very* important and you really don't want it to stall. Because of the way the FAA regs are written, you can get a gross weight increase in many twins by adding VGs to the wing and rudder. Does the plane *really* carry more? No, but certain critical speeds (Vmc, Vso) have been reduced so the regs allow a higher gross weight (thus raising the critical speeds again.) For more info about real-world VG applications, read http://www.avweb.com/articles/vortexge.html -----Original Message----- From: dawnpatrol@onemain.com [mailto:dawnpatrol@onemain.com] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 10:53 AM To: Dale Baldwin; Frank Ross; krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Re: Winglets and VG's Dale: I wish I knew more about vortex generators but it is my understanding their purpose is to keep the flow of air over the top of the wing as close to the wing as long as possible and to redirect the flow of the air so as to reduce the amount of turbulent air until it is futher back on the wing or off the trailing edge. If you can reduce turblent air and maintain a more orderly flow of air over the wing, you also reduce drag therefore you can increase speed and lift. You also reduce stall speed and handling qualities improve because of a more orderly flow over and under control surfaces. If Vortex generaters work for the wings, then I think some consideration should be given to the fuslage and elevator. After all the flow of air moving arround the fuslage and elevator is approx. the same as that arround the wings. The key to it is finding out where the turbulent air is occuring. I'm just going to take a wild guess and say it is at the high point of the wing in level flight or where the fuslage begins to taper from the max. width of the fuslage especially at the intersection of the wing and fuslage. Without having a wind tunnel it would be somewhat difficult to determine turblent locations. I would think VGs would have to go somewhere in front of these turblent locations. If anybody has more info on VGs I would like to hear from you. I would especially like to know about VGs above or under the elevator. Mike T. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Baldwin" To: "Frank Ross" ; Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 3:56 AM Subject: Re: KR> Re: Winglets and VG's > Has anyone tried vortex generators? > ----- Original > I was hoping to be the first to put vertical winglets > > on my KR, but I was, like everyone else, really > > impressed with the KR2S that came in to the Gathering > > this year with them. Would be nice to have them > > removeable to see what kind of difference they make. > > Anything that would give a slower stall speed without > > significantly effecting the cruise speed would be a > > welcome addition, I'd think. > > Frank > > --- dawnpatrol@onemain.com wrote: > > > Frank, I didn't widen the bottem of the fuslage from > > > the rear spar forward..... > > > Maybe some of the other netters out there have some > > > Ideas on this. Winglets > > > ect. Mike T. > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! > > http://auctions.yahoo.com > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:26:31 -0600 To: "Jim Covington" , From: Subject: Re: KR> Re: Winglets and VG's Message-ID: <001a01c1aaae$bb26d400$6711f8d1@matandcat> Thank's for the info on VGs, that's a big help. Anything that reduces stall speed is of great intrest to me. MikeT. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Covington" To: Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 10:30 AM Subject: RE: KR> Re: Winglets and VG's > VGs, unfortunately, don't reduce drag all the time. > > If they did, you'd see them everywhere! :) > > What they actually do is to create small vortices or tornados - hence the > name 'vortex generator.' The axis of rotation of the vortex is parallel to > the airflow. This, by its nature, creates drag. You're taking energy from > the airflow and using it to spin off small tornados. > > So what's the advantage? > > These horizontal tornados don't follow the same rules as 'regular' airflow > when it comes to separation from the wing. Note that we're not talking about > laminar vs. turbulent airflow here - we're talking about the boundary layer, > which can be both laminar and turbulent while still staying attached. A > stall occurs when the angle of attack gets so great that the boundary layer > separates from the wing and you get a flow reversal along the trailing edge. > With the boundary layer separated, you lose lift and the wing drops. A > boundary layer that is spinning in a vortex will have a greater tendency to > stay attached, and therefore the wing will stall at a higher angle of > attack. It's just a greater tendency, and not a magic bullet, so the wing > will still stall eventually. > > The first thing to remember about laminar vs. non-laminar airfoils is that > all airfoils have some laminar flow (near the leading edge) and they all > have some turbulent flow (near the trailing edge.) The label 'laminar' > should really be 'highly laminar.' 'Non-laminar' airfoils have their > boundary layer transition from turbulent to laminar very quickly, while some > 'laminar' airfoils maintain laminar flow over the first 50-60% of the chord. > Laminar boundary layer flow produces less drag than turbulent boundary layer > flow (more desirable) but a laminar boundary layer has less of a tendency to > stay attached to the wing, which produces a more abrupt stall (less > desirable.) > > Why don't VGs (usually) reduce cruise speed? > > VGs will reduce the height of the boundary layer along the rear portion of > the wing, where you normally have turbulent flow. This can reduce drag > enough to offset the original drag penalty. > You won't see VGs on highly laminar-flow wings. The VG needs to be position > at approximately the normal transition from laminar to turbulent flow. For > laminar flow wings, this is very far aft. But VGs also need to be ahead of > the point of flow separation in a stall - they can't reattach a flow that's > not there. The separation point on a laminar flow wing in a stall is > relatively far forward compared to the turbulent transition zone. This is > one reason why you get such a nasty stall from laminar wings. But you can > see it also means there's no good place to put VGs on a highly laminar flow > wing. > > VGs can also be placed on elevators and rudders to increase the angle of > attack required for separation (e.g. stall.) This can be critical for twins > when they lose an engine - the rudder becomes *very* important and you > really don't want it to stall. Because of the way the FAA regs are written, > you can get a gross weight increase in many twins by adding VGs to the wing > and rudder. Does the plane *really* carry more? No, but certain critical > speeds (Vmc, Vso) have been reduced so the regs allow a higher gross weight > (thus raising the critical speeds again.) > > For more info about real-world VG applications, read > http://www.avweb.com/articles/vortexge.html > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dawnpatrol@onemain.com [mailto:dawnpatrol@onemain.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 10:53 AM > To: Dale Baldwin; Frank Ross; krnet@mailinglists.org > Subject: Re: KR> Re: Winglets and VG's > > > Dale: > I wish I knew more about vortex generators but it is my understanding > their purpose is to keep the flow of air over the top of the wing as close > to the wing as long as possible and to redirect the flow of the air so as to > reduce the amount of turbulent air until it is futher back on the wing or > off the trailing edge. > If you can reduce turblent air and maintain a more orderly flow of air over > the wing, you also reduce drag therefore you can increase speed and lift. > You also reduce stall speed and handling qualities improve because of a more > orderly flow over and under control surfaces. > If Vortex generaters work for the wings, then I think some consideration > should be given to the fuslage and elevator. After all the flow of air > moving arround the fuslage and elevator is approx. the same as that arround > the wings. The key to it is finding out where the turbulent air is occuring. > I'm just going to take a wild guess and say it is at the high point of the > wing in level flight or where the fuslage begins to taper from the max. > width of the fuslage especially at the intersection of the wing and fuslage. > Without having a wind tunnel it would be somewhat difficult to determine > turblent locations. I would think VGs would have to go somewhere in front of > these turblent locations. > If anybody has more info on VGs I would like to hear from you. I would > especially like to know about VGs above or under the elevator. > Mike T. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dale Baldwin" > To: "Frank Ross" ; > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 3:56 AM > Subject: Re: KR> Re: Winglets and VG's > > > > Has anyone tried vortex generators? > > ----- Original > I was hoping to be the first to put vertical winglets > > > on my KR, but I was, like everyone else, really > > > impressed with the KR2S that came in to the Gathering > > > this year with them. Would be nice to have them > > > removeable to see what kind of difference they make. > > > Anything that would give a slower stall speed without > > > significantly effecting the cruise speed would be a > > > welcome addition, I'd think. > > > Frank > > > --- dawnpatrol@onemain.com wrote: > > > > Frank, I didn't widen the bottem of the fuslage from > > > > the rear spar forward..... > > > > Maybe some of the other netters out there have some > > > > Ideas on this. Winglets > > > > ect. Mike T. > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! > > > http://auctions.yahoo.com > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 06:45:19 EST To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Flymaca711689@cs.com Subject: props Inc vs ed sturba Message-ID: <188.2a30975.298a884f@cs.com> --part1_188.2a30975.298a884f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have had two props made by props inc. one took four months one was five months never again. Ed sturba takes four weeks that's It. both are nice but four to six months Is a long time. Also the rpm are lower with the props inc. Vs Ed's prop profiles Mac --part1_188.2a30975.298a884f_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 06:51:11 -0800 To: From: "Daniel Heath" Subject: Re: KR> props Inc vs ed sturba Message-ID: <000a01c1aa66$ba5bd090$fe2c5d0c@dan> I had 2 props from Ed. He gives the most bang for the buck and great service. Unless you want something special like a Warnke, Ed is the one. Daniel R. Heath www.EAA242.com See our KR2 at: www.JerryMahurin.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 3:45 AM Subject: KR> props Inc vs ed sturba > I have had two props made by props inc. one took four months one was five > months never again. Ed sturba takes four weeks that's It. both are nice but > four to six months Is a long time. Also the rpm are lower with the props inc. > Vs Ed's prop profiles > > > > > > Mac > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:06:36 -0800 To: "Z-KRflyguys" From: "idrawtobuild" Subject: VG's Message-ID: <003701c1aa82$0ca07fc0$6e13fea9@net> ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C1AA3E.F7D043C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have heard a few descripions for the VG's sofare. I had VariEze and = they were used to keep the flow from sliding of the end of the main wing = as it was swept back. Then some of the other fellows were using them to = make sure that they got all the air flow necessary to the intake to kept = the engine cool. Sounds like some other uses are also coming forth. This is good as = anything that improves things for the better I'm all for. Keep it up = gents. Greg Martin=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C1AA3E.F7D043C0-- ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************