From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 9 Apr 2002 20:33:15 -0000 Issue 406 Date: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 1:33 PM krnet Digest 9 Apr 2002 20:33:15 -0000 Issue 406 Topics (messages 9605 through 9617): Re: What Propeller are you flying with? 9605 by: Eduardo José Jankosz Z Z Z Z Z 9606 by: Tony Alderman 9607 by: rfarmer Re: Betchan's Landing Gear 9608 by: dene.collett 9615 by: Phil Maley KR prop database 9609 by: Myron Freeman more scammers on kr net! 9610 by: nikki KRs and spins 9611 by: Manager Bill 9612 by: Robert X. Cringely Photo of the Week (Exhaust Pipes) 9613 by: Mark Jones 9614 by: Daniel Heath Bad Address 9616 by: Robert Stone Bechan's landing gear pics 9617 by: dene.collett Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 13:35:45 -0300 To: "kr2brasil" From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Eduardo_Jos=E9_Jankosz?=" Cc: "Myron Freeman" , "krnet" Subject: En: KR> What Propeller are you flying with? Message-Id: <200204071645.g37GjsW25745@cwbone.bsi.com.br> Alo Vinicius! Acho ótima a idéia de se fazer um "data bank"para otimizar hélices do KR2 com diversos tipos de motores, pistas, peso, etc. etc. Sugiro você fazer aí no site um "fichário on line"para que todos os proprietários de KR2 no Brasil, preencham os dados conforme tabela abaixo, sugerida por Myron Freeman! Abraços Hi, Freeman! Your idea is very good! We here in Brazil, go try to do it! We have about 26 members in our new list, already! We don't know how many KRs are flying in Brazil, but contacts with the owners will be made for this!!!!! This, certainly, will have a great help for us in the future!!!!!!! P.S. I think that you forgot an important item: length and type of the runway for takeoff!!! Regards! Eduardo José Jankosz jankosz@bsi.com.br http://www.bsi.com.br/cbcb http://br.groups.yahoo.com/group/kr2-brasil Curitiba - PR - BRASIL ---------- De: Myron Freeman Para: KRnet Assunto: KR> What Propeller are you flying with? Data: Sexta-feira, 5 de Abril de 2002 21:37 Hi All; Well, Mark Langford said he would publish the results for all if someone would gather the information. Soooooooooooo! Since I think I'm the last one to bring up the subject lately and I think there is a real need for it, I'll volunteer to gather and assemble the information on what propeller your "flying" with. I don't want formulas and figures (I can do the math myself). I want your real world results, varified to the best of your ability so that when someone ask the same questions that I have been asking lately, there will be a data base of sorts that they can go to where they can decide for themselves what propeller they want to use. And anyone with suggestions? please feel free. So for starters I think this is what info you could give if you can get it. Name and model of aircraft. Configuration: Tri gear, retract, fixed, tail dragger. Gross weight: as commonly flown. Engine type: VW, Cont, Corvair ect. Model: 0-200, Type 1, type 4, ect. Engine displacement, Cubic inch or CC: Horsepower output @ rpm: If known. Torque output @ rpm: if known. Propeller Brand: Sterba, Warnke, Great American, ect. Prop diameter: Prop pitch: Prop weight: if known. Is it considered a climb, cruise or wall hanger prop? Static RPM: What is your maximum stationary rpm? Cruise rpm: what rpm are you most comfortable at? Cruise speed: at that rpm. Usual cruise altitude: range where your most comfortable. Rate of climb @ speed or rpm: if known. Maximum straight and level rpm: Maximum straight and level speed: if known. (GPS, DME or other) Your name and "N" number: if known. ( unless you want to be "unknown" :>) And last of all, ( I think ) your impressions of your propellers performance, would you replace it if you could afford to? Would you go up or down in size or pitch? Remember "SIZE DOES MATTER" ; ) Thanks Guys, I sincerely hope this will be helpful to all in the future, Torquer. ---------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 22:03:53 -0400 To: "kr2brasil" From: "Tony Alderman" Cc: "Myron Freeman" , "krnet" Subject: Z Z Z Z Z Message-ID: <000901c1dea1$a2c672e0$5eec2104@computer> Sure is quiet with everybody at sun-n-fun .................. I'm sooooooooo jealous.. Tony Alderman Durham NC t-hawk@mindspring.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 23:16:44 -0400 To: From: "rfarmer" Subject: ZZZZZ Message-ID: <001001c1deab$d045e520$4e5e62d8@oemcomputer> ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C1DE8A.486ADAA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sure is quiet with everybody at sun-n-fun .................. I'm = sooooooooo jealous.. Sh, I think I heard something. Na, must of just been prop wash. Bob Farmer Fries VA ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C1DE8A.486ADAA0-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 21:21:04 +0200 To: "Mark Langford" , "KRnet" From: "dene.collett" Cc: Subject: Re: KR> Betchan's Landing Gear Message-ID: <000001c1df3e$65319840$5094cba3@dean> > > > My brother and I are going to be > > > trying out Don Betchan's motorcycle front fork retractable landing > gear. > > > Spoke with him and he mentioned Skip has his plane but he didn't keep > any > > > drawings or notes. Now Skip suggests I try to locate some photos he > took > > > earlier and put on the KRnet. > > > Any suggestions where I might look? > > Randy Stein just sent me these two drawings that he made of Don's gear at > the '96 Pine Bluff Gathering: > > http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/DB_retract1.jpg > http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/DB_retract2.jpg > > Maybe this will be a clue. I don't know the whereabouts of any photos on > the subject, and I notice that nobody has come forward with any... Hi there I think I can help out here with a full set of pictures of the gear in question. Skip very generously posted me a set of hard copy pics of the gear from various angles. I will scan them and send them to anyone interested. I also have some knowlege of the internals from personal contact with Skip. Cheers Dene Collett South Africa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 23:03:56 +0800 To: "KRnet" From: "Phil Maley" Subject: RE: KR> Betchan's Landing Gear Message-ID: Dean Failing any other requests, I would like to see any pictures that you do scan. Maybe Mark could put them somewhere on the KRnet web site. On the subject of landing gear, issue 54 of the KR Newsletter mentioned several retract tri-gear designs from people like Don Land, Bill DeFreze and Mike Lamb. Are any of these designs still in use. Are drawings available? Regards to all Phil Maley Perth Australia mailto:phil@wotech.com.au http://gangway.wotech.com.au/vk6ad/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 18:47:57 -0500 To: "KRnet" From: "Myron Freeman" Subject: KR prop database Message-ID: <002f01c1df58$08521e00$3e08550c@net> ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C1DF2D.E6421F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = KR Prop Database Engine Aircraft Propeller Static rpm Cruise rpm Max = rpm Max speed Owner/pilot Comments VW 1835 KR2 GA 52x42 2900 32-3400 3500 = 155 Chuck Scrivner HAPI 65 hp - wt.825 lbs = flying VW 1835 KR2 Cu 52x44 2900 = 3100 165 ind. D.B. Durgin HAPI 65 hp VW 1835 Cu 52x42 3000 3300 = 3500 Jerry Wells VW 1835 Ste 54x48 3000 = 3200 130 VW 1835T AD 52x47 3100 3600 = 4000 Parley Byington VW 1835T 52x42 3200 = 4100 140 PB's = climb prop Rev 2100d KR2 Ste 52x50 3100 3250 = Bobbie Muse Needs a 52x52 = prop Rev 2100d GA 52x50 = Cary Honeywell Rev 2100d KR2 Wa 52x52 2900 = 3200 Kip Lounsbury VW 2100 KR2 52x49 3000-135 = 3200-140 Terry Chizek VW 2165 Ste 52x52 3150 = Rene Lemelin HAPI 82 hp VW 2165 Ste 52x58 2750 = Rene Lemelin HAPI 82 hp VW 2180 KR2 Wa 52x46 3000 3200 3500 = Gary Hinkle Current prop VW 2180 KR2 Wa 52x52 2800 3200 3400 = Gary Hinkle First prop VW 2100T KR2 PI 54x54 3400 3000-170 3400 = Richard E. Seifert Props Inc. VW 2450 KR2 Ste 54x48 = 3700 Tom Crawford Climb prop / = Type 4 VW 2450 KR2 Ste 54x52 = 3400 Tom Crawford Cruise prop / = Type 4 Cont. 85 KR2s Ste 59x60 2400 2400 = 140 William Crawford Cont. O-200 KR2 WD 56x71 2750 = 160 Jean Veron ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C1DF2D.E6421F60-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 19:07:22 -0700 To: From: "nikki" Subject: more scammers on kr net! Message-ID: <004101c1df6b$4c4e9e40$0101a8c0@pavilion> ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C1DF30.9CBADA00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I got not one, but two offers from nigeria to claim hidden money today! = WooooHoooo, ill never have to work again! =20 ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C1DF30.9CBADA00-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 20:37:28 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Manager Bill Subject: KRs and spins Message-ID: <3CB261F6.C0983A76@nm.net> I sent this on Friday but I listed .com instead of .org, so it didn't go on the net. Mistake corrected. To Eduardo Jankosz and the rest of the Net Your expert is right: a rounded cross section has less crossflow drag than a sharp edged fuselage. However, the rotation speed in a spin is quite a bit less than the forward speed, so the effective angle of yaw at the tail is at most about 10 or 15 degrees. It is proportionally less between the tail and the wing. Furthermore, a fuselage is much less effective as a lifting surface that a wing (or a fin) with the result that the fuselage contributes much less to the yawing resistance (called "damping in yaw") than does the vertical fin and rudder. So as I said before, fuselage cross sectional shape is a relatively minor consideration in tailspin characteristics.I don't think changing the shape of the KR fuselage will have much effect, if any, on its spin characteristics. However, I made another mistake in my note, I said, "Note that if the horizontal tail is far forward of the vertical tail, it will interfere with the airflow over the fin and rudder at high angle of attack and cause it to lose lift. Result: an uncontrollable spin." That is not so; if the horizontal tailplane is well forward of the vertical, the rudder will be fully exposed to the airflow, and will be able to stop the spin about as well as if there were no interference at all. The thing to avoid is a vertical tail with much less chord than the horizontal tail, so that a "fam" from the leading edge of the horizontal about 15 to 20 degrees wide extending above the horizontal tail will "blank out" half or more of the vertical. Now for confession time. I am not building a KR and have never flown in one as either pilot or passenger, so I can't tell you anything about its spin characterisitics. I do know a bit about spins, though: my fifth hour of dual as a student on Oct 8, 1944, in a 55 HP Taylorcraft, included "climbing turns, spins, forced landings" according to my logbook. I still remember it well. I've been working off and on with Jeannette Rand since about 1984, primarily on structural analysis and have given several forums for her at Oshkosh and at Sun N Fun. In moments of stark raving arrogance I have called myself an aeronautical engineer, but although I have a couple of credentials I am still learning. My personal airplane is a 1947 Navion, which I've owned since 1977. Bill Marcy Still slipping those surly bonds whenever I can ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 21:14:36 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Robert X. Cringely" Subject: Re: KR> KRs and spins Message-Id: Well I have spun my KR-1 many times with the CG both forward and back and have had no trouble recovering. You can either stop it yourself or throw up your hands and let it do the work. Because of the small prop diameter (I think) there seems to be very little difference between spinning to the left or to the right. Nor does the spin tighten-up as in some aircraft. Now for the bad news. I had been planning for sometime to take my KR out of service for a major rebuild including an engine change. Then a few weeks ago we had a series of bad storms here in California. The hangar roof had a leak, the KR canopy was left open, and the result was about 30-40 gallons of water in what had been the aft fuselage. The longerons failed in several places and a number of glue joints popped that probably shouldn't have, with the result that the plane is pretty much totalled from the seat back aft. Of course this can all be easily repaired because the structure is so simple, but I have decided to make a radical move. I am going to build a new tailcone and tailfeathers entirely from composites. There is some method behind this madness. I am right now in the middle of rebuilding my aged Glasair and that rebuild includes many of the improvements that have come along since 1980, including a larger rudder. So I have an old but good Glasair rudder in stock. Since I am upping the power on my Glasair by about 100 horsepower, I have also installed a Glasair III all-carbon-fiber horizontal stabilizer and elevator, so I have the old glass parts in stock, too. I plan to use all these parts in my hybrid KR-1. For those of you who think the Glasair parts are too heavy, I can report that they are no heavier than the parts they are replacing, probably due to an addiction to Bondo in my youth. See you in a couple years. Bob >I sent this on Friday but I listed .com instead of .org, so it didn't go >on the net. Mistake corrected. > >To Eduardo Jankosz and the rest of the Net > >Your expert is right: a rounded cross section has less crossflow drag >than a sharp edged fuselage. However, the rotation speed in a spin is >quite a bit less than the forward speed, so the effective angle of yaw >at the tail is at most about 10 or 15 degrees. It is proportionally less > >between the tail and the wing. Furthermore, a fuselage is much less >effective as a lifting surface that a wing (or a fin) with the result >that the fuselage contributes much less to the yawing resistance (called > >"damping in yaw") than does the vertical fin and rudder. So as I said >before, fuselage cross sectional shape is a relatively minor >consideration in tailspin characteristics.I don't think changing the >shape of the KR fuselage will have much effect, if any, on its spin >characteristics. > >However, I made another mistake in my note, I said, "Note that if the >horizontal tail is far forward of the vertical tail, it will interfere >with the airflow over the fin and rudder at high angle of attack and >cause it to lose lift. Result: an uncontrollable spin." That is not so; >if the horizontal tailplane is well forward of the vertical, the rudder >will be fully exposed to the airflow, and will be able to stop the spin >about as well as if there were no interference at all. The thing to >avoid is a vertical tail with much less chord than the horizontal tail, >so that a "fam" from the leading edge of the horizontal about 15 to 20 >degrees wide extending above the horizontal tail will "blank out" half >or more of the vertical. > >Now for confession time. I am not building a KR and have never flown in >one as either pilot or passenger, so I can't tell you anything about its > >spin characterisitics. I do know a bit about spins, though: my fifth >hour of dual as a student on Oct 8, 1944, in a 55 HP Taylorcraft, >included "climbing >turns, spins, forced landings" according to my logbook. I still remember >it well. > >I've been working off and on with Jeannette Rand since about 1984, >primarily on structural analysis and have given several forums for her >at Oshkosh and at Sun N Fun. In moments of stark raving arrogance I have > >called myself an aeronautical engineer, but although I have a couple of >credentials I am still learning. My personal airplane is a 1947 Navion, >which I've owned since 1977. > >Bill Marcy >Still slipping those surly bonds whenever I can > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 23:28:46 -0500 To: "KR-Net" , "CorvAircraft" From: "Mark Jones" Subject: Photo of the Week (Exhaust Pipes) Message-ID: <00f601c1df7f$0a2322c0$07991f41@wi.rr.com> ------=_NextPart_000_00F3_01C1DF55.211AC020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, Just updated the "Photo of the Week" to show you the beginning of my = exhaust pipes. Click on the link below. Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA=20 E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at =20 http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html ------=_NextPart_000_00F3_01C1DF55.211AC020-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 06:47:07 -0700 To: "KR-Net" , "CorvAircraft" From: "Daniel Heath" Subject: RE: KR> Photo of the Week (Exhaust Pipes) Message-ID: Mark, Those pipes are very neat. Did you build them? Our KR is upside down again for some inside glassing of the top canopy section. We hope to turn it back over this weekend and begin putting in the windows. While it is upside down, I am back to sanding sanding sanding on the bottom. I also hope to finish that, paint and all, the next time it goes upside down. I built the battery box yesterday. We have a great little work room at our chapter. They have a shear, break, metal cutting band saw, and a few other little handy tools. I haven't decided yet if I am going to have it welded or just rivet it together. Thanks for the pictures. When Jerry gets some free time, I hope we can get some more on our site. Daniel R. Heath WWW.EAA242.ORG See our KR2 at: www.JerryMahurin.com --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 10:21:39 -0500 To: "KRNet" From: "Robert Stone" Subject: Bad Address Message-ID: <002f01c1dfda$3f3fe0a0$05d81a18@hot.rr.com> ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C1DFB0.563F1F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Netters, This message for Frank Ross. I sent you a message using the = same address I always use and it came back as a "address unknown??? Bob Stone, Harker Heights, TX rstone4@hot.rr.com ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C1DFB0.563F1F20-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 21:50:04 +0200 To: From: "dene.collett" Subject: Bechan's landing gear pics Message-ID: <000201c1e005$fbc785e0$d594cba3@dean> Hi again chaps I have been overwhelmed by requests for the pictures of betchans gear and will be on line for a week if I had to send the pics to everyone. I know, I know I could send them only once and cc to all interested. This is exactly what I will do after reading replies to this message. Would it not be better if someone offered to host the pics on their site for everyone to see? I will wait untill tomorrow before sending out the pics. B.T.W my gear will be a mix between this system and that of a moony mite. actuator will be a small hydraulic trim-tilt pump from a 30hp outboard motor with custom built aluminuim rams actuating all three wheels of a tri setup. Prelim calcs show that the system won't weigh any more than a fixed gear system with spring steel gear blade for mains. Till tomorrow Cheers Dene Collett South Africa ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************