From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 6 May 2002 05:27:06 -0000 Issue 421 Date: Sunday, May 05, 2002 10:27 PM krnet Digest 6 May 2002 05:27:06 -0000 Issue 421 Topics (messages 9906 through 9935): Re: WHY COUNTERWEIGHT ELEVATER? 9906 by: Daniel Heath 9908 by: Linda Warner Re: 53 inch, 4000rpm prop 9907 by: Daniel Heath 9909 by: M&C 9910 by: RONALD.FREIBERGER WAF spacers 9911 by: RICK WILSON 9912 by: RICK WILSON 9916 by: Mark Jones 9917 by: Mark Langford 9918 by: Mark Langford 9919 by: Daniel Heath 9923 by: RICK WILSON 9924 by: RICK WILSON 9926 by: Mark Langford 9929 by: Donald Reid 9930 by: norm-ruth 9932 by: RONALD.FREIBERGER 9933 by: Linda Warner vents 9913 by: Audrey and Harold Woods caps 9914 by: RICK WILSON help on the net 9915 by: RICK WILSON Question re: the Turtledeck 9920 by: Peter Johnson AeroPoxy Filler 9921 by: Daniel Heath Re: corvaircraft: Fw: KR> WAF spacers 9922 by: norm-ruth Re: KR2 vs KR2S WAFs 9925 by: Mark Langford 9928 by: Sam Sayer Re: fuel tank vents 9927 by: Jerry . charter.net Belly board 9931 by: Kenneth L Wiltrout Belly Brakes and first taxi test. 9934 by: Darren Pond Thanks, WAF Spaces 9935 by: Phillip Matheson Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 05:43:22 -0700 To: "Group KR NET" From: "Daniel Heath" Subject: RE: KR> WHY COUNTERWEIGHT ELEVATER? Message-ID: David, I have seen a lot of KRs at several gatherings, and have never seen one with balanced tail feathers. That does not mean that there are not any, but I haven't seen them. I am sure, positive, that it is a good idea, but the extra weight at that moment would give me much more concern. Daniel R. Heath WWW.EAA242.ORG See our KR2 at: www.kr-builder.org -----Original Message----- From: David Hartz [mailto:dewrencher@yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 7:39 PM To: Mark Jones; Tim Brown; Group KR NET Subject: KR> WHY COUNTERWEIGHT ELEVATER? EXCUSE MY IGNORANCE? DOES THE ELEVATER NEED TO BE COUNTERBALANCED TO REDUCE ANY POSSIBLE FLUTTER OR ANOTHER REASON? DAVE HARTZ /KR2\ > ===== DAVID HARTZ,WILLITS,CALIF. DEWRENCHER@PRODIGY.NET __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 08:30:18 -0400 (EDT) To: flykr2s@wi.rr.com, krnet@mailinglists.org From: jaslkw@webtv.net (Linda Warner) Subject: Re: KR> WHY COUNTERWEIGHT ELEVATER? Message-ID: <24646-3CD525DA-141@storefull-2172.public.lawson.webtv.net> Very aptly put Mark. These guys don't seem to understand that flutter is a phenomenon and you often don't get a chance to explain to anyone what happened. They can operate without counterweights for years with no problems and then all of a sudden, they are gone! John Sickafoose EAA Tech Counselor Naples, Fl ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 05:45:16 -0700 To: "michael beck" , "group Kr2" From: "Daniel Heath" Subject: RE: KR> 53 inch, 4000rpm prop Message-ID: Is there not a concern about the tip speeds exceeding the speed of sound? I am not sure, but I thought that the prop became less to in-effective when that occurred. Daniel R. Heath WWW.EAA242.ORG See our KR2 at: www.kr-builder.org -----Original Message----- From: michael beck [mailto:kr2s2000@yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 5:41 PM To: group Kr2 Subject: KR> 53 inch, 4000rpm prop While studying March Sport Aviation, they mention a 53 inch prop turning 4000 RPM on P60. Does anyone know what the drawbacks would be, and why no one is producing one? It would seem just the thing for most auto engines (VW and possibly some others). I could get a lot more power if I could run the revs that high! Mike Beck Sedro Woolley, WA __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 08:27:30 -0500 To: "Daniel Heath" , "michael beck" , "group Kr2" From: "M&C" Subject: Re: KR> 53 inch, 4000rpm prop Message-ID: <000e01c1f438$9ceb5960$6cae4ad1@matandcat> Tip speed on a 53 inch prop at 4000rpm = 630.6mph ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Heath" To: "michael beck" ; "group Kr2" Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 7:45 AM Subject: RE: KR> 53 inch, 4000rpm prop > Is there not a concern about the tip speeds exceeding the speed of sound? I > am not sure, but I thought that the prop became less to in-effective when > that occurred. > > > Daniel R. Heath > > WWW.EAA242.ORG > > See our KR2 at: > > www.kr-builder.org > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: michael beck [mailto:kr2s2000@yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 5:41 PM > To: group Kr2 > Subject: KR> 53 inch, 4000rpm prop > > > While studying March Sport Aviation, they mention a > 53 inch prop turning 4000 RPM on P60. Does anyone know > what the drawbacks would be, and why no one is > producing one? It would seem just the thing for most > auto engines (VW and possibly some others). I could > get a lot more power if I could run the revs that > high! > Mike Beck > Sedro Woolley, WA > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness > http://health.yahoo.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 09:59:17 -0400 To: , From: "RONALD.FREIBERGER" Cc: Subject: RE: KR> 53 inch, 4000rpm prop Message-ID: Also, most race planes run about 10 hours per season and then overhaul. Frequently, they use a much different prop if flying between race sites. Ron Freiberger... mailto:ron.martha@mindspring.com -----Original Message----- From: bob@cringely.com [mailto:bob@cringely.com] Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 3:59 AM To: kr2s2000@yahoo.com Cc: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> 53 inch, 4000rpm prop Formula 1 racing props turn that fast. Their efficiency is lower, as is their static thrust, so they are only truly effective on very small, very efficient airframes like.... a KR-2. Operationally, though, you often have a problem that the propeller blades are stalled until reaching flying speed, so takeoffs are l-o-n-g and in some cases impossible. Still, it varies from prop to prop and application to application. For little planes like we are talking about they might, indeed, be a good way to go. Bob michael beck wrote > > While studying March Sport Aviation, they mention a > 53 inch prop turning 4000 RPM on P60. Does anyone know > what the drawbacks would be, and why no one is > producing one? It would seem just the thing for most > auto engines (VW and possibly some others). I could > get a lot more power if I could run the revs that > high! > Mike Beck > Sedro Woolley, WA > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness > http://health.yahoo.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 07:48:44 -0700 (PDT) To: KRNET@MAILINGLISTS.ORG From: RICK WILSON Subject: WAF spacers Message-ID: <20020505144844.50379.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> Good Morning, Does anyone know if you are supposed to use spacers between the wing attach fittings to hold them the same distance apart or to tighten the bolts against, or is it better to not use any spacer at all? it would seem to me that if spacers were used, they would need large area washers on the ends where they would contact the waf's. if anyone has any thoughts or suggestions, they would be appreciated. Thanks, Rick Wilson. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 07:54:47 -0700 (PDT) To: KRNET@MAILINGLISTS.ORG From: RICK WILSON Subject: WAF spacers Message-ID: <20020505145447.23588.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> Hi again, I should have made my first question plainer. What i was asking about is when you are bolting the wings on. Thanks again, Rick. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 10:45:29 -0500 To: "KR-Net" , "RICK WILSON" From: "Mark Jones" Subject: Re: KR> WAF spacers Message-ID: <008c01c1f44c$62b1dd00$c5991f41@wi.rr.com> I have seen this done with one bolt through the top and one through the bottom. If you are going to do it this way, you must put a spacer between the front and rear WAF's. This will keep them from deforming under compression. I reviewed this with my EAA Tech Counselor and he recommended one bolt for each fitting connection. That would be eight bolts on each side when you do both front and rear spar. This would also help prevent catastrophic failure if one of the one-bolt-spacer method was used and one of those bolts either broke or came loose. If you use eight bolts on each wing and you lose one, there are seven more to keep you up in the air. He also stated that the FAA Inspector would prefer the eight-bolt method. Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "RICK WILSON" To: Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 9:48 AM Subject: KR> WAF spacers > Good Morning, Does anyone know if you are supposed to > use spacers between the wing attach fittings to hold > them the same distance apart or to tighten the bolts > against, or is it better to not use any spacer at all? > it would seem to me that if spacers were used, they > would need large area washers on the ends where they > would contact the waf's. if anyone has any thoughts or > suggestions, they would be appreciated. Thanks, Rick Wilson. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness > http://health.yahoo.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 11:18:37 -0500 To: "KR-Net" From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> WAF spacers Message-ID: <0aac01c1f450$83de75c0$0100a8c0@TD310> Mark Jones wrote: > my EAA Tech Counselor and he recommended > one bolt for each fitting connection. That would be eight bolts on each side > when you do both front and rear spar. This would also help prevent > catastrophic failure if one of the one-bolt-spacer method was used and one > of those bolts either broke or came loose. If you use eight bolts on each > wing and you lose one, there are seven more to keep you up in the air. He > also stated that the FAA Inspector would prefer the eight-bolt method. The other side of the coin here is that if you have one long bolt going through both WAF connections, with a suitably tight fit with a thick 4130 tubing spacer between WAFs, you'll actually have a quasi double shear connection that maintains better bolt/joint connection geometry, which will wear less and keep the joint tighter than the called-for single shear connection, and therefore be even less prone to failure.. I sincerely doubt that there's ever been an AN6 bolt fail in a KR2 WAF fitting before, so I'm not sure if I go for that argument about having 7 more to go. And with one gone, you're going to have problems, regardless. Of course all of this will cost and weigh slightly more, the longer bolts with spacers will be harder to install (or easier, depending), and you won't be following the plans, so it's compromise of sorts, either way. Were I to do this again, I'd build the spars to butt into each other, and offset the WAFs and run the connection bolts through the spar caps (possibly sleeved with 4130, probably not). This connection would be tight and durable, have true double shear, but you wouldn't have the luxury of that 2" wide gap to work through to install or remove the bolts, but you wouldn't have that ugly gap seal either. I'm questioning you, Mark, just your tech counselor. I'm just not sure that it makes much difference either way... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 11:57:03 -0500 To: "KRnet" From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> WAF spacers Message-ID: <0ab401c1f455$e2d9da10$0100a8c0@TD310> I wrote: > I'm questioning you, Mark, just your tech counselor Shoulda said "I'm NOT questioning you, Mark, just your tech counselor" Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 14:08:09 -0700 To: "KR-Net" From: "Daniel Heath" Subject: RE: KR> WAF spacers Message-ID: I thought that the plans did call for 1 bolt, but I don't remember if it called for the spacer or not. When I had the Little Beast inspected, the inspector insisted that I install one bolt per hole. I think we had this discussion about a year ago and I was convinced at that time that the single bolt with the proper spacer gave a stronger attachment. I know Jerry is convinced, I just don't know what the inspector will say this time, and I am not sure that he is supposed to have the last word on that anyway. Daniel R. Heath See our KR2 at: http://kr-builder.org See our EAA Chapter 242 at: WWW.EAA242.ORG -----Original Message----- From: Mark Langford [mailto:langford@hiwaay.net] Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 9:19 AM To: KR-Net Subject: Re: KR> WAF spacers Mark Jones wrote: > my EAA Tech Counselor and he recommended > one bolt for each fitting connection. That would be eight bolts on each side > when you do both front and rear spar. This would also help prevent > catastrophic failure if one of the one-bolt-spacer method was used and one > of those bolts either broke or came loose. If you use eight bolts on each > wing and you lose one, there are seven more to keep you up in the air. He > also stated that the FAA Inspector would prefer the eight-bolt method. The other side of the coin here is that if you have one long bolt going through both WAF connections, with a suitably tight fit with a thick 4130 tubing spacer between WAFs, you'll actually have a quasi double shear connection that maintains better bolt/joint connection geometry, which will wear less and keep the joint tighter than the called-for single shear connection, and therefore be even less prone to failure.. I sincerely doubt that there's ever been an AN6 bolt fail in a KR2 WAF fitting before, so I'm not sure if I go for that argument about having 7 more to go. And with one gone, you're going to have problems, regardless. Of course all of this will cost and weigh slightly more, the longer bolts with spacers will be harder to install (or easier, depending), and you won't be following the plans, so it's compromise of sorts, either way. Were I to do this again, I'd build the spars to butt into each other, and offset the WAFs and run the connection bolts through the spar caps (possibly sleeved with 4130, probably not). This connection would be tight and durable, have true double shear, but you wouldn't have the luxury of that 2" wide gap to work through to install or remove the bolts, but you wouldn't have that ugly gap seal either. I'm questioning you, Mark, just your tech counselor. I'm just not sure that it makes much difference either way... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 12:23:46 -0700 (PDT) To: KRNET@MAILINGLISTS.ORG From: RICK WILSON Subject: WAF spacers Message-ID: <20020505192346.80506.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, When i asked about spacers on the waf's i actually meant when you bolt the wings on to the stub wings. Do you need to place spacers in the gap between the ends of the four attach points on each side, or just use bolts without any spacers? I don't know if the ends would deform under loads or not. I don't remember seeing anything about this in the plans or drawings. Thanks, Rick Wilson. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 12:39:24 -0700 (PDT) To: KRNET@MAILINGLISTS.ORG From: RICK WILSON Subject: WAF spacers Message-ID: <20020505193924.53589.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> , I see what you mean about eight bolts per side. I had never thought of putting one short bolt per hole. I have always used only one long bolt on other projects, but they were arranged differently than the kr. Thanks, Rick __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 14:57:07 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> WAF spacers Message-ID: <0ae301c1f46f$0984f460$0100a8c0@TD310> If you buy the bolt kit from RR, you'll get 8 AN6-6A bolts, labeled "wing attach bolts, forward spar", which tells me they intend for one short bolt per hole, rather than one long one spanning both holes.. The drawing on page 24 of my manual shows the same. That doesn't make it "right", however. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 20:16:10 -0400 To: KRNET@MAILINGLISTS.ORG From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR> WAF spacers Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20020505200530.00a249b0@pop.erols.com> --=====================_53528979==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:48 AM 5/5/2002 -0700, RICK WILSON wrote: >Good Morning, Does anyone know if you are supposed to >use spacers between the wing attach fittings to hold >them the same distance apart or to tighten the bolts >against, or is it better to not use any spacer at all? >it would seem to me that if spacers were used, they >would need large area washers on the ends where they >would contact the waf's. if anyone has any thoughts or >suggestions, they would be appreciated. Thanks, Rick Wilson. There has been some discussion on this topic already, but I will add my opinion as a professional engineer. A single bolt with properly fitted spacer is stronger and more structurally efficient than two bolts without a spacer in the case that we are describing. Mark described the single shear versus double shear aspects and he is correct. No large washer would be required on the outside of the WAF. The loading in that direction is minimal. The overall risk of failure is significantly lower for a single bolt/spacer combination than for the two bolt combination. It is somewhat more difficult to build and install, but you can do it. I have one hole on the bottom of my wing that is approximately 2 inches wide by 4 inches long that is located directly below the fittings. There is also an access hole directly under my aileron bellcrank that I can put my arm in (just barely). That is sufficient to get the bolts in and out. I made several bullet-nosed bolts (threads removed, tapered, and with a rounded end) that is used to align all of the fitting before installation of the final bolts. It works well. Your inspector can not legally make you change something like this. You are the manufacturer of the airplane and this is a fully acceptable construction technique. The inspector can make a nuisance of himself and try and withhold your certificate, but you can argue the point successfully. Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com Bumpass, Va Visit my web sites at: KR2XL construction: http://users.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Aviation Surplus: http://users.erols.com/donreid/Airparts.htm EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org Ultralights: http://usua250.org VA EAA State Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org --=====================_53528979==_.ALT-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 20:36:37 -0500 To: "KRnet" From: "norm-ruth" Subject: Fw: KR> WAF spacers Message-ID: <000a01c1f49e$77a385e0$12ee3a41@prodigy.net> If anyone is adequately interested, let me know privately, and I will scan and email the drawings for the WAF's that use bushings and spacers. Norm Seel norm-ruth@prodigy.net. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donald Reid" To: Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 7:16 PM Subject: Re: KR> WAF spacers > At 07:48 AM 5/5/2002 -0700, RICK WILSON wrote: > >Good Morning, Does anyone know if you are supposed to > >use spacers between the wing attach fittings to hold > >them the same distance apart or to tighten the bolts > >against, or is it better to not use any spacer at all? > >it would seem to me that if spacers were used, they > >would need large area washers on the ends where they > >would contact the waf's. if anyone has any thoughts or > >suggestions, they would be appreciated. Thanks, Rick Wilson. > > There has been some discussion on this topic already, but I will add my > opinion as a professional engineer. > > A single bolt with properly fitted spacer is stronger and more structurally > efficient than two bolts without a spacer in the case that we are > describing. Mark described the single shear versus double shear aspects > and he is correct. No large washer would be required on the outside of the > WAF. The loading in that direction is minimal. The overall risk of > failure is significantly lower for a single bolt/spacer combination than > for the two bolt combination. > > It is somewhat more difficult to build and install, but you can do it. I > have one hole on the bottom of my wing that is approximately 2 inches wide > by 4 inches long that is located directly below the fittings. There is > also an access hole directly under my aileron bellcrank that I can put my > arm in (just barely). That is sufficient to get the bolts in and out. I > made several bullet-nosed bolts (threads removed, tapered, and with a > rounded end) that is used to align all of the fitting before installation > of the final bolts. It works well. > > Your inspector can not legally make you change something like this. You > are the manufacturer of the airplane and this is a fully acceptable > construction technique. The inspector can make a nuisance of himself and > try and withhold your certificate, but you can argue the point successfully. > > > > Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com > Bumpass, Va > > Visit my web sites at: > KR2XL construction: http://users.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm > Aviation Surplus: http://users.erols.com/donreid/Airparts.htm > EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org > Ultralights: http://usua250.org > VA EAA State Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 21:17:27 -0400 To: "Donald Reid" , From: "RONALD.FREIBERGER" Subject: RE: KR> WAF spacers Message-ID: Don Wilson said; Your inspector can not legally make you change something like this. You are the manufacturer of the airplane and this is a fully acceptable construction technique. The inspector can make a nuisance of himself and try and withhold your certificate, but you can argue the point successfully. You are allowed to build your own airplane using good practices and proceedures, and the DAR can indeed delay or prevent stupid appications. Also, he can string out your approval 'til you have a beard down to your belyy button. The "a" in DAR stands for airworthiness. I believe the reason the design (which is quite adequate) is that the designer might have expected many amateurs to not get all those parts in alignment, and this is more forgiving of poor workmanshiip. Had I built from scratch, I would have drilled the WAFs undersized, and reamed to fit at assembly. That of couse, would be overdoing it. For those of you who wear both a belt and suspenders, the one bolt and spcer design is better, but un-necessarily so. GO FOR IT. Ron Freiberger... mailto:ron.martha@mindspring.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 22:48:22 -0400 (EDT) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: jaslkw@webtv.net (Linda Warner) Subject: Fwd: Re: KR> WAF spacers Message-ID: <29676-3CD5EEF6-669@storefull-2177.public.lawson.webtv.net> --WebTV-Mail-3574-398 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Hi all. Just 2 more cents worth. This actually was told to me as a horror story of sorts by a KR builder (veteran) at Oshkosh several years ago. I'll not mention his name. He built and flies a beautiful Cont. 0-200 powered KR-2. He told me that while doing some maneuvers one day, he pulled out of a dive and while doing so, heard a loud bang! As he envisioned his life ending at that moment, he was pleased to find the aircraft intact and manageable. However, one wing was sticking up at a much higher angle than the other. He managed to nurse the plane back to his home airport and land it. Upon close examination, he found the upper WAF's on the affected wing had collapsed in a compression failure, with each set of WAF's failing either forward or rearward until the butt ends of the spars were touching each other. His feeling on the matter was this: if the bolts thru the WAF's were just one long bolt with a spacer between them, the compression failure would probably not have occurred as the spacer would have added additional support and strength to the assembly. I agree with his thinking and will construct my KR2S this way and WILL get it approved if I have to go thru all of the DAR's out there to achieve the approval! I'm glad to see that others have born out the structural integrity of this thinking and I will certainly retain this post as an aid in getting mine approved if the need should arise. John Sickafoose EAA tech counselor Naples, Fl --WebTV-Mail-3574-398 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from smtpin-2107.public.lawson.webtv.net (209.240.213.117) by storefull-2174.public.lawson.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Sun, 5 May 2002 17:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailinglists.org (server1.mailinglists.org [63.160.175.18]) by smtpin-2107.public.lawson.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with SMTP id 9B5EFFE66 for ; Sun, 5 May 2002 17:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 23923 invoked by alias); 6 May 2002 00:14:04 -0000 Mailing-List: contact krnet-help@mailinglists.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list krnet@mailinglists.org Received: (qmail 23914 invoked from network); 6 May 2002 00:14:03 -0000 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20020505200530.00a249b0@pop.erols.com> X-Sender: donreid@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 20:16:10 -0400 To: KRNET@MAILINGLISTS.ORG From: Donald Reid In-Reply-To: <20020505144844.50379.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_53528979==_.ALT" Subject: Re: KR> WAF spacers --=====================_53528979==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:48 AM 5/5/2002 -0700, RICK WILSON wrote: >Good Morning, Does anyone know if you are supposed to >use spacers between the wing attach fittings to hold >them the same distance apart or to tighten the bolts >against, or is it better to not use any spacer at all? >it would seem to me that if spacers were used, they >would need large area washers on the ends where they >would contact the waf's. if anyone has any thoughts or >suggestions, they would be appreciated. Thanks, Rick Wilson. There has been some discussion on this topic already, but I will add my opinion as a professional engineer. A single bolt with properly fitted spacer is stronger and more structurally efficient than two bolts without a spacer in the case that we are describing. Mark described the single shear versus double shear aspects and he is correct. No large washer would be required on the outside of the WAF. The loading in that direction is minimal. The overall risk of failure is significantly lower for a single bolt/spacer combination than for the two bolt combination. It is somewhat more difficult to build and install, but you can do it. I have one hole on the bottom of my wing that is approximately 2 inches wide by 4 inches long that is located directly below the fittings. There is also an access hole directly under my aileron bellcrank that I can put my arm in (just barely). That is sufficient to get the bolts in and out. I made several bullet-nosed bolts (threads removed, tapered, and with a rounded end) that is used to align all of the fitting before installation of the final bolts. It works well. Your inspector can not legally make you change something like this. You are the manufacturer of the airplane and this is a fully acceptable construction technique. The inspector can make a nuisance of himself and try and withhold your certificate, but you can argue the point successfully. Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com Bumpass, Va Visit my web sites at: KR2XL construction: http://users.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Aviation Surplus: http://users.erols.com/donreid/Airparts.htm EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org Ultralights: http://usua250.org VA EAA State Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org --=====================_53528979==_.ALT-- --WebTV-Mail-3574-398-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 10:56:15 -0400 To: From: "Audrey and Harold Woods" Subject: vents Message-ID: <002601c1f445$01b8e5e0$b0046418@baol.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C1F423.7A3AEF80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Im pushing 73 and one year to go to fly. What about bugs rammed into=20 the forward pointing vent tube? Or rain drops etc.How about a tee = fitting . Crimp the rear opening of the tee to create positive pressure to the = tank. Rain and bugs will go straight through and on the ground a visual = inspection should easily indicate blockages.The nicely tapered section = of the crimped rear portion of the tee is a case of streamlining. I wish = I had bought a comuter and got on this net years ago, instead of last = month. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C1F423.7A3AEF80-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 08:01:27 -0700 (PDT) To: KRNET@MAILINGLISTS.ORG From: RICK WILSON Subject: caps Message-ID: <20020505150127.90001.qmail@web21206.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Ronald for your advice about capital letters, I think we just about covered that subject yesterday. I do appreciate it though. Thanks again, Rick. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 08:14:09 -0700 (PDT) To: KRNET@MAILINGLISTS.ORG From: RICK WILSON Subject: help on the net Message-ID: <20020505151409.52987.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> Audrey and Harold, the tee sounds like a good idea, it could be made with a short piece of tubing on the back with a small removable cap to remove bugs etc. Like you said, I should have gotten on the kr net before now too. I've only been on for approximately 6 months, and it's already been a great help. Before this about all you could do was try something and hope it worked. Now, you can usually find someone who's been there or done that, and are willing to help. Anyway, that's my two cents worth. Thanks, Rick Wilson. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 13:08:59 -0700 To: From: "Peter Johnson" Subject: Question re: the Turtledeck Message-ID: <002301c1f470$d117d8c0$65a5e2d1@peter> ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C1F436.0541E360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've a question here for those who are flying, and those who have been = around KR's. I've built my KR-2S with compound curves throughout the fuse lines. = After fairing the turtledeck plug I layed on two layers of 6 oz cloth = 'skin'. The skin has been removed and braced with composite = longitudinal members that parallel the top longeron, and five hoop = braces evenly spaced from front to rear of the approx 7 foot long = turtledeck skin. There is no foam inside of the skin as would be if = following the common construction technique.=20 The structure en masse is rigid, but between the braces lie just the two = layers of 6 oz cloth that form the turtledeck shape. This layup is = quite flexible to 'point loads', ie, you can discplace it some with your = finger tip when you push it between the braces, probably no more than = you could push the fabric in on a conventional rag and tube frame. My question to those with time and experience around the planes is this: = Is there any need to have the turtledeck skin 'stiff'? Are airloads = sufficiant on the turtedeck that the skin itself might flex during = flight? Are there enough 'ground handling' loads applied over time to = the turtledeck that it should be made to resist point loading? I'm not sure of the real life operating conditions of a KR and so must = ask the above. I have three options available to me to increase the = skin stiffness if I must, but the question is, must I?=20 Thanks in advance for your help. pjohnson@voyageur.ca ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C1F436.0541E360-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 14:45:26 -0700 To: "Krnet@Mailinglists.Org" From: "Daniel Heath" Subject: AeroPoxy Filler Message-ID: I am using the AeroPoxy Lite, Lightweight epoxy filler. I was told via the net, that it should spread like frosting. This stuff is so thick that it spreads more like play dough. There are no directions on the label. There was a web address of www.aeropoxy.com but no one is home, page not found. Does anyone know if there is something that this can be cut with to make it thinner. I think it would be really good stuff it were not so thick. Thanks, Daniel R. Heath See our KR2 at: http://kr-builder.org See our EAA Chapter 242 at: WWW.EAA242.ORG --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 15:13:05 -0500 To: "KRnet" From: "norm-ruth" Subject: Fw: corvaircraft: Fw: KR> WAF spacers Message-ID: <003401c1f471$45740e00$25c53a41@prodigy.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: "norm-ruth" To: Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 2:16 PM Subject: corvaircraft: Fw: KR> WAF spacers > ===============================CorvAIRCRAFT=============================== > On the original design (prototype of the KR) for the front spar WAF's, it > used a long bolt going through bushings and with an aluminum spacer > separating the WAF's. It seems to me that this was a better system, and the > KR arrangement was used as a simplification. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Daniel Heath" > To: "KR-Net" > Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 4:08 PM > Subject: RE: KR> WAF spacers > > > > I thought that the plans did call for 1 bolt, but I don't remember if it > > called for the spacer or not. When I had the Little Beast inspected, the > > inspector insisted that I install one bolt per hole. > > > > I think we had this discussion about a year ago and I was convinced at > that > > time that the single bolt with the proper spacer gave a stronger > attachment. > > I know Jerry is convinced, I just don't know what the inspector will say > > this time, and I am not sure that he is supposed to have the last word on > > that anyway. > > > > > > Daniel R. Heath > > > > See our KR2 at: > > > > http://kr-builder.org > > > > See our EAA Chapter 242 at: > > > > WWW.EAA242.ORG > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Langford [mailto:langford@hiwaay.net] > > Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 9:19 AM > > To: KR-Net > > Subject: Re: KR> WAF spacers > > > > > > Mark Jones wrote: > > > > > my EAA Tech Counselor and he recommended > > > one bolt for each fitting connection. That would be eight bolts on each > > side > > > when you do both front and rear spar. This would also help prevent > > > catastrophic failure if one of the one-bolt-spacer method was used and > one > > > of those bolts either broke or came loose. If you use eight bolts on > each > > > wing and you lose one, there are seven more to keep you up in the air. > He > > > also stated that the FAA Inspector would prefer the eight-bolt method. > > > > The other side of the coin here is that if you have one long bolt going > > through both WAF connections, with a suitably tight fit with a thick 4130 > > tubing spacer between WAFs, you'll actually have a quasi double shear > > connection that maintains better bolt/joint connection geometry, which > will > > wear less and keep the joint tighter than the called-for single shear > > connection, and therefore be even less prone to failure.. I sincerely > doubt > > that there's ever been an AN6 bolt fail in a KR2 WAF fitting before, so > I'm > > not sure if I go for that argument about having 7 more to go. And with > one > > gone, you're going to have problems, regardless. > > > > Of course all of this will cost and weigh slightly more, the longer bolts > > with spacers will be harder to install (or easier, depending), and you > won't > > be following the plans, so it's compromise of sorts, either way. Were I > to > > do this again, I'd build the spars to butt into each other, and offset the > > WAFs and run the connection bolts through the spar caps (possibly sleeved > > with 4130, probably not). This connection would be tight and durable, > have > > true double shear, but you wouldn't have the luxury of that 2" wide gap to > > work through to install or remove the bolts, but you wouldn't have that > ugly > > gap seal either. > > > > I'm questioning you, Mark, just your tech counselor. I'm just not sure > that > > it makes much difference either way... > > > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama > > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > > see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > > > > --- > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > > > > ===============================CorvAIRCRAFT=============================== > To unsubscribe send "unsubscribe corvaircraft" to"majordomo@usm.edu" > For help send "info corvaircraft" or "help" to "majordomo@usm.edu" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 14:46:17 -0500 To: "KR Mailing Lists" From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR>KR2 vs KR2S WAFs Message-ID: <0ada01c1f46d$860ff590$0100a8c0@TD310> Sam Sayer wrote: >>Are the wing attach fittings on the KR-2S the same as used on the KR-2, and if there is a difference what are the new dimensions ? << I never saw an answer to this, so here's something I posted a few weeks ago: Bascially they are exactly the same parts, except that ALL of the aft spar WAFs are bent 3 degrees, rather than only half of them. This gives the KR2S's aft spar a 6 degree sweep forward, rather than only 3 degrees like the KR2. I don't know if anybody answered this one privately or not, but it would help if you guys would post the answers to the list, so we'll know whether or not it got answered. I guess I'm alsways complaining about something... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 18:42:22 -0400 To: "Mark LANGFORD" , "KR Mailing Lists" From: "Sam Sayer" Subject: Re: KR>KR2 vs KR2S WAFs Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1F464.9831EC00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark; Thanks for the information. I was very sure that they would be t= he same. =20 Sam Sayer ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Langford Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 3:46 PM To: KR Mailing Lists Subject: Re: KR>KR2 vs KR2S WAFs =20 Sam Sayer wrote: >>Are the wing attach fittings on the KR-2S the same as used on the KR-2, and if there is a difference what are the new dimensions ? << I never saw an answer to this, so here's something I posted a few weeks a= go: Bascially they are exactly the same parts, except that ALL of the aft spa= r WAFs are bent 3 degrees, rather than only half of them. This gives the KR2S's aft spar a 6 degree sweep forward, rather than only 3 degrees like the KR2. I don't know if anybody answered this one privately or not, but it would help if you guys would post the answers to the list, so we'll know whethe= r or not it got answered. I guess I'm alsways complaining about something.= .. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/Get more = from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1F464.9831EC00-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 18:31:43 -0700 To: "RICK WILSON" , From: "Jerry @ charter.net" Subject: Re: KR> fuel tank vents Message-ID: <001c01c1f49d$c80d4440$2b1af118@oldmyrddin> Rick, I'v got 14 years more than you and I've built and flown four planes and I'm still learning.... I'm afraid that you will never get over it. Or at least I don't want to.... Jerry Mahurin Lugoff, SC See our KR2 at http://kr-builder.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "RICK WILSON" To: Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 4:39 PM Subject: KR> fuel tank vents > Hi, Thanks for the info on the vent line. I'll leave > it as it is, and it helps to know someone has already > done it that way and it works. Also, I appreciate the > advice on using capital letters, I really didn't know > it was shouting. I keep an open mind, after all, I'm > pushing 50 years old, and still learn something every > day. Thanks again, Rick Wilson. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness > http://health.yahoo.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 21:09:16 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Kenneth L Wiltrout Subject: Belly board Message-ID: <20020505.210916.-269195.1.klw1953@juno.com> Just wondering how much experience is out ther concerning belly boards. I need to slow mine down a bit more to feel comfortable getting into the shorter runways. Has anyone mounted one of these to the rear spar as opposed to the forward spar? Hooking one of these up to the forward spar is going to be a challange to say the least, especially with a center stick. Comments?-----------------Thanks ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 23:03:48 -0700 To: "krnet" From: "Darren Pond" Subject: Belly Brakes and first taxi test. Message-ID: <002b01c1f4c3$ca6b1520$79469d18@cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C1F489.1DA787E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HI Keith and All I started designing my ideal KR two years ago after purchasing a Taylor = Mono plane the orginal KR. Well I finially taxi tested CF-VML tonight = after being a hanger queen for 25years. On step closer! Once the Taylor is flying I can put the hammer or Composite stick down = and see what a KR can do. Here are some saved email quotes to at to your collection on Belly = brakes. Peter Johnson is also installing a belly brake as well as myself = but not flying yet. I have installed a belly board with holes on N4DD it is 7 1/4" X 30" and = goes down 75 deg. I havn't had a chance to test it up high to see if it = helps or causes a problem. It shouldn't since it is the one that Steve = Trentman had on the turbine KR-2 and was 9 1/2 X 30 thjen. Note that it = is hinged directly under the rear spar to board bonded under the spar to = the floor. Ken Cottle sent me information on his ( which I think is now = Steve Bennets ) and he had a 12" X 22 1/2 on his KR 1 1/2 and went down = 60 deg..Tommy Allison has one on his KR-2 that is solid 8" X 32" and = goes down 68 deg. he says ti slowes him down to a 65 mph approach. After = I check it out up high just to make sure that it doesn't do something = like blank out the elevator when it gets slow, I'll post the results. = There isn't much written on belly brakes so I hope this helps. Jean N4DD Good question, I have seen the same belly air brake installed on the = KR2S of a friend of mine in Tuscany ( Italy) . He whas happy of these solution and his bird fly very well , so I have = make the same air brake in the same position ( rear spar ) I will install instead of the manual system an electric device , ( the electric motor and actuator from a car seat ) . Ciao Franco ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C1F489.1DA787E0-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 09:44:05 +1000 To: From: "Phillip Matheson" Subject: Thanks, WAF Spaces Message-ID: <000001c1f3f5$aab1ca40$7e97dccb@barry> ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C1F419.65CEDCA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rick. Thanks for the question. I was about to ask the same question. My old plan shows short bolts and = that means 8 per side, but the unfinished kit I picked has some spacers = with. So I found the replies very interesting Thanks=20 Phil Matheson matheson@dodo.com.au ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C1F419.65CEDCA0-- ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************