From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 27 Jun 2002 00:54:38 -0000 Issue 464 Date: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:55 PM krnet Digest 27 Jun 2002 00:54:38 -0000 Issue 464 Topics (messages 11150 through 11179): Re: Fiberglassing 11150 by: Seifert, Richard E Oops.. 11151 by: Conley, Paul W. Colours/Heat 11152 by: Eric Evezard 11158 by: Frank Ross 11159 by: asavant.notes.state.ne.us 11176 by: virgnvs.juno.com painting composites 11153 by: Audrey and Harold Woods 11156 by: asavant.notes.state.ne.us 11165 by: Glasco 11169 by: larry flesner colors 11154 by: Conley, Paul W. 11157 by: Bryan Abshier 11160 by: rfarmer 11161 by: Conley, Paul W. 11167 by: Wayne 11168 by: larry flesner 11177 by: virgnvs.juno.com turbine KR 11155 by: Oscar Zuniga Fuel tank vent 11162 by: Jim Morehead 11164 by: rfarmer 11166 by: rfarmer Larry's Search engine 11163 by: Conley, Paul W. Color Chart-- Last Word 11170 by: Mel Evans G rating/KR2 11171 by: larry flesner 11179 by: Daniel Heath color 11172 by: Darrell A Haas 11178 by: Daniel Heath Re: KR weights etc. 11173 by: chris gardiner 11174 by: Donald Blankenship Re: KR weights etc., what 7.0 g means in U.S. 11175 by: Donald Blankenship Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 07:26:01 -0700 To: "'Mark Jones'" , "'KRnet'" From: "Seifert, Richard E" Subject: RE: KR> Fiberglassing Message-ID: <9BA7A06DA8127B4B925954F3F8705D349F8378@XCH-SW-09.sw.nos.boeing.com> Bite the bullet Mark. Remove the engine. Engine removal will take less than a day and you will find it much easier to flip. Also you will be much less likely to damage something in the process. Besides misery loves company. I have to remove mine Saturday to repair the HAPI alternator. Good Luck. -----Original Message----- From: Mark Jones [mailto:flykr2s@wi.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 6:06 PM To: KR-Net Subject: KR> Fiberglassing I have to glass the bottom of my wing stubs. My dilemma is my engine is mounted and I would prefer not pulling it to turn the plane over to glass the bottom of the stubs. Is there a technique for glassing on the bottom which has worked well for anyone else? Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:44:16 -0400 To: "'krnet@mailinglists.org'" From: "Conley, Paul W." Subject: Oops.. Message-id: <070AE2805DAC5F409222E15F3FCA421606BEE625@uuhil-354> --Boundary_(ID_6Jr0mWjtXIOc8rov9VAH3g) Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=us-ascii Darrell, Regarding your query: Statement: I'm a new kid on the block ........ Congrats! Good to have another flyer. Question: I have recently been reading the info on weight and balance, cg, etc. and I can't help to wonder since I am so new just how fragile, and/or safe is the kr planes. Answer: The KR is a great little plane. The statement of 7 Gs +/- is a statement of how well the bird is designed and structurally sound. This measurement should not be interpreted to justify overloading the plane. I.E. some people want to carry more than the specified weight so, in saying they will never experience 7 Gs it should be safe to go over gross and simply not do the Gs. While kinda correct, this does not take in to account the windflow at low speeds being effected and overall side effect of trying to fly a heavy bird rather than the light wonderful bird it is. True, it is a limited bird if you want to put 2 full size people in it. I doubt if you will have room for fuel.. weight wise! This is what has led to the KR2s, and extended wings. But this also adds more drag etc.. The way I look at it, keep the bird light, simple and take the gross weight (gross of a KR2 960) with a slight grain of salt... Most folks use up weight w/ goodies and then basically say they want to overload it because they won't use the 7 Gs today...... You get the Idea..... Bottom line most planes I've seen are 6-7 hundred pounds or more.. Original design was 530 (hard to do granted) mine is 602. So the 1100 pound gross seems to be "psuto accepted".. This is not a fragile airplane, just a little small... BTW I'm 6'2 and 200Lbs.! I figure Me, Lunch and gas work real well....... Or, me and a petite blond... Eh never mind............. Lunch and gas, I hear the wife calling got'ta go.......... Regarding CG, just observe the limits! preferably keeping it even 2 inches foreword of the aft most posted envelope is a good feeling... Tail Drag Vs. Tri.: Well, the Tri is w/o a doubt easier to Taxi, see out of, perhaps even land and take off.. I own and love my Tail Drag. I have flown a champ 400 odd hours, ultralight TD 50 odd hours and this KR. 1 Tri Pacer which I loved had a nose wheel obviously and was cool.... I just love the settling in and feeling the tail set down when landing and still being useful as a pilot using rudder pedals with concern to the chalks... Sniff.. Sniff.. Gets me all choked up just thinking bout it........ Others? Thank you, Paul Conley LAN-WAN Engineer, Global Hosting GHNEI (Net. Eng. & Implementation) UUNET, an MCI WorldCom Company (614) 723-7647 / paul.conley@wcom.com --Boundary_(ID_6Jr0mWjtXIOc8rov9VAH3g)-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:22:07 +0200 To: "KR MAIL" From: "Eric Evezard" Subject: Colours/Heat Message-ID: <008801c21d36$1bc17d20$11ce07c4@bonzabay> ------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C21D46.C2E810E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Netters, There seems to be a ruling that a KR 2 and most composites can be = painted any colour as long as it is white.Small trim of darker shades = seem to appear now and again.Just how much heat can a composite take?For = example how long would a red turtle deck last? Best Regards, Eric Evezard, South Africa. ------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C21D46.C2E810E0-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:47:48 -0700 (PDT) To: KR MAIL From: Frank Ross Subject: Re: KR> Colours/Heat Message-ID: <20020626184748.47885.qmail@web21502.mail.yahoo.com> Eric, At the last 'Gathering' in Pine Bluff, AR, USA, I had the chance to do a very primitive test on this subject. One of the planes was painted with white, yellow, red and black areas. It was sitting in the sun and I simply rested the palm of my hand briefly on each area. White, I could rest my hand on comfortably, even though it was warm to the touch. Black was uncomfortably hot, but so was red, though not as much as black. Yellow was surprisingly warm, but not as much so as red. If the plane will only be exposed to direct sunlight in very cool areas, or for brief periods, it doesn't seem to be an issue. Longer exposures or hotter climates, changes things. Also, I'd worry more about flying surfaces than front or rear decks. Many planes have small areas painted darker without problems. I had thought of doing my upper surfaces white with designs on the lower surfaces similar to the USAF Thunderbirds. Howard Kaiser, who built the first KR-2 I ever saw, built it in Phoenix, AZ, where night-time low temperatures during the summer are often ABOVE 90 degrees F. Howard built the curve into his plexiglass canopy simply by laying the glass over a plywood form in his van, which he then left sitting in the sun with the windows closed for several hours. Seems those of us in warmer climates could do the same. Put the finished wings in a black box in the sun for a day or so. Maybe add a couple of heat lamps for good measure. Just make sure you don't live in a forest-fire-prone area. This would take some planning. Have to lay-up the wings in the hotter months. Or paint it white. Best of luck to you, Frank Ross, San Antonio, TX --- Eric Evezard wrote: > Hi Netters, > There seems to be a ruling that a KR 2 and most > composites can be painted any colour as long as it > is white.Small trim of darker shades seem to appear > now and again.Just how much heat can a composite > take?For example how long would a red turtle deck > last? > Best Regards, > Eric Evezard, > South Africa. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:16:33 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: asavant@notes.state.ne.us Subject: Re: KR> Colours/Heat Message-ID: Frank said: "I had thought of doing my upper surfaces white with designs on the lower surfaces similar to the USAF Thunderbirds." One thing to watch out for, is that the temp due to the tarmac and hot rising air sometimes reachs more than direct sunlight at that time. Ameet Frank Ross om> cc: Subject: Re: KR> Colours/Heat 06/26/2002 01:47 PM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ and at http://www.bouyea.net/ for the older ones ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 20:01:54 -0400 To: bonzabay@netactive.co.za From: virgnvs@juno.com Cc: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Colours/Heat Message-ID: <20020626.202315.-452937.2.virgnvs@juno.com> Fiberglass and foam do not take kindly to heat. Even a light tint is too much. Keep it cool, Virg On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:22:07 +0200 "Eric Evezard" writes: > Hi Netters, > There seems to be a ruling that a KR 2 and most composites can be > painted any colour as long as it is white.Small trim of darker > shades seem to appear now and again.Just how much heat can a > composite take?For example how long would a red turtle deck last? > Best Regards, > Eric Evezard, > South Africa. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:33:15 -0400 To: From: "Audrey and Harold Woods" Subject: painting composites Message-ID: <006801c21d37$8de50b00$b0046418@baol.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C21D16.064D2400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Heat is the enemy of epoxy composites. I cannot tell you what the upper = temperature is but why do you not make a simple test panel. Paint it = white. put it out in the sun in a wind protected place and see what = happens. Then paint it with different colors in sequence , ending up = with black. Epoxy can be heat tempered to withstand higher temperatures = by aging it at higher and higher temperatures.I do not know off hand the = highest temperature that you should age it to. Use poster paint which is = water soluble and easily cleaned up after each trial. I will not have = such a heat problem here in Canada. I probably will only use it locally. = Harold Woods --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release Date: 6/20/02 ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C21D16.064D2400-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:46:27 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: asavant@notes.state.ne.us Subject: Re: KR> painting composites Message-ID: That is a great idea Harold... I think I read somewhere that Black painted composites in the sun can reach upto 240-250 F, While white painted could reach 160-180 F, All other colors should lie between. (Interesting fact: some middle school children executed an experiment to see the heat built up due to different color and their conclusion was the Red creates the most heat! I have search long for a similar study or a chart/table to give color vs temp but haven't found anything yet) Generally speaking, when one makes a layup at say X deg F the composite can withstand X+40 deg F. If you do a high temperature cure or even post cure it to say Tg - 40 F then the composite will have good chance and will fail only at Tg (glass transition temp) instead of way below Tg. This provides you with ability to color something other than white. The problem is the you can't raise X as much as you want because the core material might melt. Foam melts at 140 F(?) which means that you are stuck with white color even if you get a elevated temp epoxy. Which mean if you get an elevated temp epoxy and a honey comb core and a place to cure your part or whole plane at a high temp you can paint it something other than white. However, all if this is not very practical for a homebuilder on tight budget. Hope that helps you. Ameet "Audrey and Harold Woods" To: Subject: KR> painting composites 06/26/2002 12:33 PM Heat is the enemy of epoxy composites. I cannot tell you what the upper temperature is but why do you not make a simple test panel. Paint it white. put it out in the sun in a wind protected place and see what happens. Then paint it with different colors in sequence , ending up with black. Epoxy can be heat tempered to withstand higher temperatures by aging it at higher and higher temperatures.I do not know off hand the highest temperature that you should age it to. Use poster paint which is water soluble and easily cleaned up after each trial. I will not have such a heat problem here in Canada. I probably will only use it locally. Harold Woods --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release Date: 6/20/02 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:34:33 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Glasco Subject: Re: KR> painting composites Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020626133433.007d0100@mail.ridgenet.net> Gee, wish I didn't have to wory about temperature. It has been 105-106 here the last couple of weeks, by August 116-118 is normal and over 120 not unusual; (but it is a dry heat). The glass transition temperature of Epoxies varies but even with post cure I haven't found one that is over 200. Per the AS&S catalog vinylester is good up to 210 or so. Somewhere I have seen 235 for last-a-foam. Regarding color, in his book "Composite Construction for Homebuilt Aircraft", on pg. 63, Jack Lambie shows a plot of the effect of painting composites using different colors. His ambient temperature peaks at 85, white is 125, aluminum is 160, olive is 170, and black is 190. I don't know that you could extrapolate a straight line, ambient 125 equals 230 with black but anything other than white would seem to be pushing the edge if you do any summer flying in the southwestern states. Brad Glasco KR-2S, Corvair California At 01:33 PM 6/26/02 -0400, you wrote: >Heat is the enemy of epoxy composites. I cannot tell you what the upper temperature is but why do you not make a simple test panel. Paint it white. put it out in the sun in a wind protected place and see what happens. Then paint it with different colors in sequence , ending up with black. Epoxy can be heat tempered to withstand higher temperatures by aging it at higher and higher temperatures.I do not know off hand the highest temperature that you should age it to. Use poster paint which is water soluble and easily cleaned up after each trial. I will not have such a heat problem here in Canada. I probably will only use it locally. Harold Woods ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 17:21:47 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: larry flesner Subject: Re: KR> painting composites Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020626172147.008f8810@mail.midwest.net> I don't >know that you could extrapolate a straight line, ambient 125 equals 230 >with black but anything other than white would seem to be pushing the edge >if you do any summer flying in the southwestern states. >Brad Glasco ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ According to the chart, 110 degrees ambient gives you 240 surface temp with black so I don't think you would be pushing the edge, I think you've gone over the edge. :-) Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:36:39 -0400 To: "'krnet@mailinglists.org'" From: "Conley, Paul W." Subject: colors Message-id: <070AE2805DAC5F409222E15F3FCA421606BEE627@uuhil-354> --Boundary_(ID_9W3frGVo1sxtExNzSjSCDg) Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=us-ascii Quick and to the point. Does anyone have a color vs. heat absorbed / reflected chart or info? What is silver in relation to white? Thank you, Paul Conley LAN-WAN Engineer, Global Hosting GHNEI (Net. Eng. & Implementation) UUNET, an MCI WorldCom Company (614) 723-7647 / paul.conley@wcom.com --Boundary_(ID_9W3frGVo1sxtExNzSjSCDg)-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:31:40 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Bryan Abshier Subject: Re: KR> colors Message-ID: <20020626113140.A28742@babshier.com> On Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 01:36:39PM -0400, Conley, Paul W. wrote: > Quick and to the point. Does anyone have a color vs. heat absorbed / > reflected chart or info? There is a chart in one of the old newsletters. http://kr.abshier.org/newsletters/nl32.html -- Bryan Abshier - bryan@babshier.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:26:03 -0400 To: "krnet" From: "rfarmer" Subject: Re: KR> colors Message-ID: <002501c21d47$50b4b9a0$d74562d8@oemcomputer> I wonder how that pearl color that was on the Olds Aurora would do? I always liked that color. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Conley, Paul W." To: Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:36 PM Subject: KR> colors > Quick and to the point. Does anyone have a color vs. heat absorbed / > reflected chart or info? > > What is silver in relation to white? > > Thank you, > Paul Conley > LAN-WAN Engineer, Global Hosting > GHNEI (Net. Eng. & Implementation) > UUNET, an MCI WorldCom Company > (614) 723-7647 / paul.conley@wcom.com > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:31:34 -0400 To: "'krnet@mailinglists.org'" From: "Conley, Paul W." Subject: colors Message-id: <070AE2805DAC5F409222E15F3FCA421606BEE62A@uuhil-354> --Boundary_(ID_1uV0/U2Uy3nY1XOB7hfQHg) Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=us-ascii Thanks Bryan. Good link for color chart... It's the berries! Hey Larry C., what happened to your search engine? I really liked it. Don't tell me we killed it! Hee.. Hee.. Great for Archive search.... Thank you, Paul Conley LAN-WAN Engineer, Global Hosting GHNEI (Net. Eng. & Implementation) UUNET, an MCI WorldCom Company (614) 723-7647 / paul.conley@wcom.com --Boundary_(ID_1uV0/U2Uy3nY1XOB7hfQHg)-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:06:06 -0700 To: From: "Wayne" Subject: colors Message-ID: <004a01c21d5d$afa84600$4500a8c0@mshome.net> ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C21D22.FF0F94E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Every paint manufacturer provides a light reflective value (LRV) for = every color they produce. The LRV of white is around 85% silver is = around 75% The heat absorbed by each color is directly related to the = LRV. If you have a specific color in mind contact the manufacturer an = ask for the LRV. It is not perfect but will give you an idea of the = amount of energy that will be absorbed Thanks Wayne ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C21D22.FF0F94E0-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 17:14:02 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: larry flesner Subject: Re: KR> colors Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020626171402.008f4a10@mail.midwest.net> Conley, Paul W. wrote: >> Quick and to the point. Does anyone have a color vs. heat absorbed / >> reflected chart or info? >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >There is a chart in one of the old newsletters. >http://kr.abshier.org/newsletters/nl32.html >Bryan Abshier - bryan@babshier.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ That newsletter was dated Feb.,1978. My set of plans (dated 5/2/83) has that exact chart on page 116, drawing #90. Was this dropped from later plans or are there builders out there not reading the manual? Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 20:04:23 -0400 To: paul.conley@wcom.com From: virgnvs@juno.com Cc: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> colors Message-ID: <20020626.202315.-452937.3.virgnvs@juno.com> White is cooler than silver. Black and white radiate the same as far as heat goes but white reflects better, Virg On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:36:39 -0400 "Conley, Paul W." writes: > Quick and to the point. Does anyone have a color vs. heat absorbed / > reflected chart or info? > > What is silver in relation to white? > > Thank you, > Paul Conley > LAN-WAN Engineer, Global Hosting > GHNEI (Net. Eng. & Implementation) > UUNET, an MCI WorldCom Company > (614) 723-7647 / paul.conley@wcom.com > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:39:20 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: turbine KR Message-ID: I'm surprised that Mark Langford hasn't already mentioned this (I know you're just lounging there by your computer, sipping some chardonnay as you browse the KRNet posts, Mark!)- but for you folks who insist on pursuing this line of questioning there is a photo or two of Mike Ladigo's radical, turbine-powered KR on the KRNet website. One is about 2/3 of the way down this page: http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/k97gathr.html Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:42:53 -0700 To: KR- Net From: Jim Morehead Subject: Fuel tank vent Message-ID: Netters, I=B9m building a header tank and a auxiliary tank in the right stub wing= . A question for anyone who has done this. Would you vent the stub wing tank and the header tank together or would you vent them separately? I plan on making the header tank removable. Jim Morehead Cameron Park, CA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 16:24:56 -0400 To: "krnet" From: "Bob Farmer" Subject: Fw: KR> Fuel tank vent Message-ID: <001501c21d4f$89fee340$135f62d8@oemcomputer> Jim, unless you plan on operating these as separate fuel supplies, either run on > the header tank or run on the wing tank, the header tank will have to have > the vent or the vent in the wing tank will allow the header tank to drain by > gravity because it is higher. > > Bob Farmer > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Morehead" > To: "KR- Net" > Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 3:42 PM > Subject: KR> Fuel tank vent > > > Netters, > Iım building a header tank and a auxiliary tank in the right stub wing. > A question for anyone who has done this. Would you vent the stub wing tank > and the header tank together or would you vent them separately? I plan on > making the header tank removable. > > Jim Morehead > Cameron Park, CA > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > and at http://www.bouyea.net/ for the older ones > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 17:31:14 -0400 To: "krnet" From: "Bob Farmer" Subject: Re: KR> Fuel tank vent Message-ID: <002801c21d58$cd7c5400$135f62d8@oemcomputer> Now that I think about it that was not a very good answer to your question. If the airplane is to be operated without the header tank you would have to have a fill & vent for the wing tank so the fuel tanks would have to be separate fill & vent with either-or but not 'both' fuel supply. Why removable tank? I am beginning to confuse myself. Maybe a Yengling Porter & a burger would be the best thing now. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Farmer" To: "krnet" Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:24 PM Subject: Fw: KR> Fuel tank vent > > Jim, unless you plan on operating these as separate fuel supplies, either > run on > > the header tank or run on the wing tank, the header tank will have to have > > the vent or the vent in the wing tank will allow the header tank to drain > by > > gravity because it is higher. > > > > Bob Farmer > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jim Morehead" > > To: "KR- Net" > > Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 3:42 PM > > Subject: KR> Fuel tank vent > > > > > > Netters, > > Iım building a header tank and a auxiliary tank in the right stub > wing. > > A question for anyone who has done this. Would you vent the stub wing tank > > and the header tank together or would you vent them separately? I plan on > > making the header tank removable. > > > > Jim Morehead > > Cameron Park, CA > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > > and at http://www.bouyea.net/ for the older ones > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > and at http://www.bouyea.net/ for the older ones > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 16:20:17 -0400 To: "'krnet@mailinglists.org'" From: "Conley, Paul W." Subject: Larry's Search engine Message-id: <070AE2805DAC5F409222E15F3FCA421606BEE62E@uuhil-354> --Boundary_(ID_id9WE4IFsGrpPilDbH/hvA) Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=us-ascii All, I previously thought Larry's Search engine was down. Silly me! OK, I bookmarked incorrectly! Larry Capp's KR Mail Archive search engine is alive ! (Thanks Larry) If you haven't tried it, I suggest doing so! It's the... well, ...Eh, Sh...... Real Good ! http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp Thank you, Paul Conley LAN-WAN Engineer, Global Hosting GHNEI (Net. Eng. & Implementation) UUNET, an MCI WorldCom Company (614) 723-7647 / paul.conley@wcom.com --Boundary_(ID_id9WE4IFsGrpPilDbH/hvA)-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:39:46 -0700 (PDT) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Mel Evans Subject: Color Chart-- Last Word Message-ID: <20020626223946.81442.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com> I couldn't stand it any more: C'mon guys. The fact that there is a huge color vs temperature chart on page 116 of the KR-2 plans means people filling up the list with questions and 'answers' aren't even bothering to even look at the plans--for anything. Mel __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 17:42:38 -0500 To: From: larry flesner Subject: G rating/KR2 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020626174238.008fe420@mail.midwest.net> The KR is a great little plane. The statement of 7 Gs +/- is a >statement of how well the bird is designed and structurally sound. This >measurement should not be interpreted to justify overloading the plane. >Paul Conley ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ According to my set of plans, page 6, the "design stress loading is plus/minus 7 G's at 800 pounds gross. That would be 5600 pounds. At 1200 pound gross you would have a 4.6 G rating. If you have the extended wings that will drop another 1/2 G ( according to Jeanette Rand). Are you now at a level where you start to wonder if you got those wing attach fittings installed properly? :-) The bright side is that I've yet to hear of a KR2 shedding it's wings like the C130 did while fire fighting in California. That was a bad sceen! Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 20:56:11 -0700 To: From: "Daniel Heath" Subject: RE: KR> G rating/KR2 Message-ID: I thought it was +7, -4 Daniel R. Heath See our KR2 at: http://kr-builder.org See our EAA Chapter 242at: http://WWW.EAA242.ORG -----Original Message----- From: larry flesner [mailto:flesner@midwest.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:43 PM To: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: KR> G rating/KR2 The KR is a great little plane. The statement of 7 Gs +/- is a >statement of how well the bird is designed and structurally sound. This >measurement should not be interpreted to justify overloading the plane. >Paul Conley ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ According to my set of plans, page 6, the "design stress loading is plus/minus 7 G's at 800 pounds gross. That would be 5600 pounds. At 1200 pound gross you would have a 4.6 G rating. If you have the extended wings that will drop another 1/2 G ( according to Jeanette Rand). Are you now at a level where you start to wonder if you got those wing attach fittings installed properly? :-) The bright side is that I've yet to hear of a KR2 shedding it's wings like the C130 did while fire fighting in California. That was a bad sceen! Larry Flesner --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ and at http://www.bouyea.net/ for the older ones --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:53:28 -0700 To: From: darrellh@involved.com (Darrell A Haas) Subject: color Message-ID: <02d501c21d64$4a24b550$5434bbd0@darrellhyov7nx> ------=_NextPart_000_02D2_01C21D29.9CE54150 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We have a lot of planes out there. Has anyone experienced any problems = with the heat caused from the color of the paint?? Darrell ------=_NextPart_000_02D2_01C21D29.9CE54150-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 20:54:52 -0700 To: From: "Daniel Heath" Subject: RE: KR> color Message-ID: I have seen a lot of blisters on planes with color. Keep it on the wood and you won't have as much of a problem. The pre-molded stuff may hold up better, but I am going with white on the glass. Daniel R. Heath See our KR2 at: http://kr-builder.org See our EAA Chapter 242at: http://WWW.EAA242.ORG -----Original Message----- From: Darrell A Haas [mailto:darrellh@involved.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:53 PM To: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: KR> color We have a lot of planes out there. Has anyone experienced any problems with the heat caused from the color of the paint?? Darrell --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:00:16 -0400 To: "w.g. kirkland" From: chris gardiner Cc: krnet@mailinglists.org, Kenneth L Wiltrout Subject: Re: KR> KR weights etc. Message-ID: <3D1A4780.5060607@attcanada.ca> --------------080606030004040105070506 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the comments, Bill. I , for one,would like to see Transport Canada grant us Canadian KR builders the same gross weight as most US builders are getting , namely 1150 lbs or so. I just recently got my final Special Certificate of Airworthiness but 980 Lbs is my max limit. When asking TC what it would take to up my gross weight , I get a variety of answers. At the very least they will require a stress analysis calculation of the WAF fitiingsand max G loading , new Cg calculation and a new climb test report . ( and probably signed afidavits from other builders flying at 1150 would help) Do you ( can you ) help with the stress calc. ? Once one KR builder gets the 1150 weight , a precedent will be set for all. Regards Chris Gardiner C-GKRZ . Would w.g. kirkland wrote: >Ken; Lets see! 7G's at 1120lb makes for a load of 7840 lb. There are several >ways to arrive at the ultimate load the wing will withstand. >1. Do the engineering calculations. This just puts you in the ballpark. It's >theory only, not real world. >2. Test the wing to destruction. Probably the best way but then you have to >build another wing and can you make it exactly like the first one. Hmm >better put in a safety factor for manufacturing errors. >3. Fly it then pull G until the wing busts, but then you and God only know >and it really won't matter will it? > >Fact is #2 is the only one the FAA will accept and I don't know that it has >ever been done on this aircraft. So the best you probably have is #1 which >is only an estimate so you had best play it safe. I don't trust engineers >anyway cause I r one. > >Just musing. Anyone done any accurate flight tests? >W.G.(Bill) KIRKLAND >kirkland@vianet.on.ca >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kenneth L Wiltrout" >To: >Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 6:16 PM >Subject: KR> KR weights etc. > > >>I fly a 2S that I built, according to the info I received when I started >>building 6 or 7 yrs ago the Rand #'s were empty wt =520 lbs, gross = >>980, and useful load = 460 lbs. Now we all know that hitting these #'s is >>dam hard if not impossible, but I continue to see people talk about this >>plane being a 7g airplane. My point is this---------who really knows >>factually what this plane can tolerate as far as weight? How did someone >>arrive at 6 or 7g's. 6399U tips the scales at 640 dry, with me and a 170 >>passenger with full fuel it tops out at 1121 lbs. Lets be realistic, how >>many g's will it take to pull the wings off of this thing at this weight. >>I love my bird but I fly it with respect.---------------------Kenny >> >> >>________________________________________________________________ >>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >>Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" >> >>To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >>For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org >> >>See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ >>and at http://www.bouyea.net/ for the older ones >> > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ >and at http://www.bouyea.net/ for the older ones > > > --------------080606030004040105070506-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 18:59:37 -0500 To: clgard@attcanada.ca, krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Donald Blankenship" Subject: Re: KR> KR weights etc. Message-ID: <20020626235937.9170.qmail@mail.com> Chris, Bill was right on the money, but let me narrow it down a little. General Aviation aircraft (as differentiated from U.S. EXPERIMENTAL Category) are designed for 4.5 g limit load x 1.5 factor of safety which is 6.75 g. Ironically, the KR-2 wing attach fittings mathematically may not quite make the 7.0 g for all conceivable calculations and assumptions, even though they may survive a loads test with 800 lbs x 7.0 g = 5600 lbs of sand bags placed on the spars (plane mounted upside down). So you want an 1150 lb plane to be certified to be as safe as any general aviation plane. Let's see: 800#/1150# x 7.0 g (really 6.75) = 4.87 g. Now, because we are using ultimate (destructive loading) let's back-calculate to see what our design limit load is (divide by the 1.5 factor of safety): 4.87 g / 1.5 = 3.25 g. This is an interesting calculation. I do not intend to fly the KR over 980 lbs. Whatever current fliers are allowed to do is not my domain. But do you really want to ask the Canadian government to certify yours and all other Canadian homebuilt KR-2 for 1150 lbs, when that means their design limit load is only 3.25 g compared to 4.5 g for the Cessnas, Pipers, etc., which were built in a factory? Now, as Bill said, there is one way to get around the math without offending Mr. Isaac Newton: Place 1150 lbs x 7 g (maybe just 6.75 g) = 8050 lbs on the spars with the plane upside down and make sure your regulators witness it. If it doesn't break -- "voila" as the Quebecois say, it's good for 1150 pounds and you haven't broken anything (hopefully). It's as easy as that. Get light, get smart, save yourself a lot of work and worry. If you send me your weights as requested, I can add additional information, much of which I'm sure will not be what you want, but it is truely not my fault. Blame Mr. Newton. --Skutch ----- Original Message ----- From: chris gardiner Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:00:16 -0400 To: "w.g. kirkland" Subject: Re: KR> KR weights etc. > Thanks for the comments, Bill. > > I , for one,would like to see Transport Canada grant us Canadian KR > builders the same gross weight as most US builders are getting , namely > 1150 lbs or so. > > I just recently got my final Special Certificate of Airworthiness but > 980 Lbs is my max limit. When asking TC what it would take to up my > gross weight , I get a variety of answers. > > At the very least they will require a stress analysis calculation of the > WAF fitiingsand max G loading , new Cg calculation and a new climb test > report . ( and probably signed afidavits from other builders flying at > 1150 would help) > Do you ( can you ) help with the stress calc. ? > > Once one KR builder gets the 1150 weight , a precedent will be set for all. > > Regards > > Chris Gardiner > C-GKRZ > > . > > Would > > w.g. kirkland wrote: > > >Ken; Lets see! 7G's at 1120lb makes for a load of 7840 lb. There are several > >ways to arrive at the ultimate load the wing will withstand. > >1. Do the engineering calculations. This just puts you in the ballpark. It's > >theory only, not real world. > >2. Test the wing to destruction. Probably the best way but then you have to > >build another wing and can you make it exactly like the first one. Hmm > >better put in a safety factor for manufacturing errors. > >3. Fly it then pull G until the wing busts, but then you and God only know > >and it really won't matter will it? > > > >Fact is #2 is the only one the FAA will accept and I don't know that it has > >ever been done on this aircraft. So the best you probably have is #1 which > >is only an estimate so you had best play it safe. I don't trust engineers > >anyway cause I r one. > > > >Just musing. Anyone done any accurate flight tests? > >W.G.(Bill) KIRKLAND > >kirkland@vianet.on.ca > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Kenneth L Wiltrout" > >To: > >Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 6:16 PM > >Subject: KR> KR weights etc. > > > > > >>I fly a 2S that I built, according to the info I received when I started > >>building 6 or 7 yrs ago the Rand #'s were empty wt =520 lbs, gross = > >>980, and useful load = 460 lbs. Now we all know that hitting these #'s is > >>dam hard if not impossible, but I continue to see people talk about this > >>plane being a 7g airplane. My point is this---------who really knows > >>factually what this plane can tolerate as far as weight? How did someone > >>arrive at 6 or 7g's. 6399U tips the scales at 640 dry, with me and a 170 > >>passenger with full fuel it tops out at 1121 lbs. Lets be realistic, how > >>many g's will it take to pull the wings off of this thing at this weight. > >>I love my bird but I fly it with respect.---------------------Kenny > >> > >> > >>________________________________________________________________ > >>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > >>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > >>Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > >>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > >> > >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > >> > >>To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > >>For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >> > >>See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > >>and at http://www.bouyea.net/ for the older ones > >> > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > >See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > >and at http://www.bouyea.net/ for the older ones > > > > > > > > -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup Save up to $160 by signing up for NetZero Platinum Internet service. http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=N2P0602NEP8 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:15:38 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Donald Blankenship" Subject: Re: KR> KR weights etc., what 7.0 g means in U.S. Message-ID: <20020627001539.36298.qmail@mail.com> All of the below applies to our U.S. planes as well: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donald Blankenship" Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 18:59:37 -0500 To: clgard@attcanada.ca, krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> KR weights etc. > > Chris, > > Bill was right on the money, but let me narrow it down a little. > General Aviation aircraft (as differentiated from U.S. EXPERIMENTAL Category) are designed for 4.5 g limit load x 1.5 factor of safety which is 6.75 g. Ironically, the KR-2 wing attach fittings mathematically may not quite make the 7.0 g for all conceivable calculations and assumptions, even though they may survive a loads test with 800 lbs x 7.0 g = 5600 lbs of sand bags placed on the spars (plane mounted upside down). > > So you want an 1150 lb plane to be certified to be as safe as any general aviation plane. Let's see: > > 800#/1150# x 7.0 g (really 6.75) = 4.87 g. Now, because we are using ultimate (destructive loading) let's back-calculate to see what our design limit load is (divide by the 1.5 factor of safety): > > 4.87 g / 1.5 = 3.25 g. > > This is an interesting calculation. I do not intend to fly the KR over 980 lbs. Whatever current fliers are allowed to do is not my domain. But do you really want to ask the Canadian government to certify yours and all other Canadian homebuilt KR-2 for 1150 lbs, when that means their design limit load is only 3.25 g compared to 4.5 g for the Cessnas, Pipers, etc., which were built in a factory? > > Now, as Bill said, there is one way to get around the math without offending Mr. Isaac Newton: Place 1150 lbs x 7 g (maybe just 6.75 g) = 8050 lbs on the spars with the plane upside down and make sure your regulators witness it. If it doesn't break -- "voila" as the Quebecois say, it's good for 1150 pounds and you haven't broken anything (hopefully). It's as easy as that. > > Get light, get smart, save yourself a lot of work and worry. If you send me your weights as requested, I can add additional information, much of which I'm sure will not be what you want, but it is truely not my fault. Blame Mr. Newton. > > --Skutch > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: chris gardiner > Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:00:16 -0400 > To: "w.g. kirkland" > Subject: Re: KR> KR weights etc. > > > > Thanks for the comments, Bill. > > > > I , for one,would like to see Transport Canada grant us Canadian KR > > builders the same gross weight as most US builders are getting , namely > > 1150 lbs or so. > > > > I just recently got my final Special Certificate of Airworthiness but > > 980 Lbs is my max limit. When asking TC what it would take to up my > > gross weight , I get a variety of answers. > > > > At the very least they will require a stress analysis calculation of the > > WAF fitiingsand max G loading , new Cg calculation and a new climb test > > report . ( and probably signed afidavits from other builders flying at > > 1150 would help) > > Do you ( can you ) help with the stress calc. ? > > > > Once one KR builder gets the 1150 weight , a precedent will be set for all. > > > > Regards > > > > Chris Gardiner > > C-GKRZ > > > > . > > > > Would > > > > w.g. kirkland wrote: > > > > >Ken; Lets see! 7G's at 1120lb makes for a load of 7840 lb. There are several > > >ways to arrive at the ultimate load the wing will withstand. > > >1. Do the engineering calculations. This just puts you in the ballpark. It's > > >theory only, not real world. > > >2. Test the wing to destruction. Probably the best way but then you have to > > >build another wing and can you make it exactly like the first one. Hmm > > >better put in a safety factor for manufacturing errors. > > >3. Fly it then pull G until the wing busts, but then you and God only know > > >and it really won't matter will it? > > > > > >Fact is #2 is the only one the FAA will accept and I don't know that it has > > >ever been done on this aircraft. So the best you probably have is #1 which > > >is only an estimate so you had best play it safe. I don't trust engineers > > >anyway cause I r one. > > > > > >Just musing. Anyone done any accurate flight tests? > > >W.G.(Bill) KIRKLAND > > >kirkland@vianet.on.ca > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Kenneth L Wiltrout" > > >To: > > >Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 6:16 PM > > >Subject: KR> KR weights etc. > > > > > > > > >>I fly a 2S that I built, according to the info I received when I started > > >>building 6 or 7 yrs ago the Rand #'s were empty wt =520 lbs, gross = > > >>980, and useful load = 460 lbs. Now we all know that hitting these #'s is > > >>dam hard if not impossible, but I continue to see people talk about this > > >>plane being a 7g airplane. My point is this---------who really knows > > >>factually what this plane can tolerate as far as weight? How did someone > > >>arrive at 6 or 7g's. 6399U tips the scales at 640 dry, with me and a 170 > > >>passenger with full fuel it tops out at 1121 lbs. Lets be realistic, how > > >>many g's will it take to pull the wings off of this thing at this weight. > > >>I love my bird but I fly it with respect.---------------------Kenny > > >> > > >> > > >>________________________________________________________________ > > >>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > >>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > >>Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > >>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > >> > > >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > >> > > >>To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > >>For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > >> > > >>See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > > >>and at http://www.bouyea.net/ for the older ones > > >> > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > > > > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > > >See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > > >and at http://www.bouyea.net/ for the older ones > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > __________________________________________________________ > Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com > http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup > > Save up to $160 by signing up for NetZero Platinum Internet service. > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=N2P0602NEP8 > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/ > and at http://www.bouyea.net/ for the older ones > > -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup Save up to $160 by signing up for NetZero Platinum Internet service. http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=N2P0602NEP8 ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************