From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 24 Jul 2002 17:23:57 -0000 Issue 480 Date: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 10:24 AM krnet Digest 24 Jul 2002 17:23:57 -0000 Issue 480 Topics (messages 11591 through 11620): Re: list 11591 by: asavant.notes.state.ne.us Re: Hi friends 11592 by: Donald Reid KR Around the World Website/Good Read 11593 by: Frank Ross finish 11594 by: Allan D Olcott KR2 world tour 11595 by: Serge Vidal 11604 by: Frank Ross list/reply/reply-all 11596 by: larry flesner 11597 by: asavant.notes.state.ne.us 11598 by: Mark Langford 11599 by: Larry A. Capps 11601 by: larry flesner 11602 by: asavant.notes.state.ne.us 11611 by: Glasco VW engine mount 11600 by: Oscar Zuniga Re: everything i have been reading on the net 11603 by: ace nunye Re: KR 11605 by: virgnvs.juno.com 11606 by: Daniel Heath building per plans 11607 by: jim . synergy design 11610 by: Rex Ellington KR Newsletter - Subscription via PayPal 11608 by: Larry A. Capps control stick welds. 11609 by: Audrey and Harold Woods 11615 by: Livingstone, Danny (DJ) Building per plans??? -1.02 cents worth 11612 by: Rick 11613 by: Frank Ross 11614 by: David Hartz Re: Welding 4130. 11616 by: Phillip Matheson 11617 by: Livingstone, Danny (DJ) 11619 by: Phillip Matheson build to plans #2 11618 by: jim . synergy design normalizing metal tubing structures 11620 by: Rick Wilson Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 07:46:07 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: asavant@notes.state.ne.us Subject: Re: KR> list Message-ID: One of things the list admin can do is have a reply-to option. Every em= ail that krnet sends to all the members should have a reply-to specified as= krnet@mailinglists.org. I have seen this done before and I am certain t= he list admin can do this. What happens is that when unsuspecting members = hit reply button it replies to krnet instead of the sender. If you want to reply to the sender then you will have to use their email address. Until then always make sure you are sending the email to krnet@mailinglists.org my 2=A2 thanks Ameet = =20 Brian Kraut = =20 cc: = =20 Subject: KR> list = =20 07/22/2002 08:41 = =20 PM = =20 Please respond to = =20 engalt = =20 = =20 = =20 I have noticed that replies to the messages seem to only go to the person who sent the message, not the entire list unless the replier copies the list also. I realize that I am new to the list and this subject has probably been beat to death before I got here, but does anyone else think it is bette= r for replies to go the whole list unless someone purpously replies only to the sender? I have read through the messages for the past few month= s and searched a bunch of subjects on the archives and found a log of goo= d questions that I would like to see the answers to, but very few answers= that were copied to the list. I subscribe to another unrelated list an= d learn a lot more from the answers to other people's questions than the questions that I think of posting myself. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files = ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:57:18 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR> Hi friends Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20020723084338.00a2a0c0@pop.erols.com> --=====================_1938128==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:57 PM 7/22/2002 -0400, virgnvs@juno.com wrote: > FOLLOW the plans, Virg > > > Hi .....I have questions : > > > > 2- which is better ? afully foame wing covered withe > > fiberglass or a > > conestructed foam wing (foam ribs covered by foam sheets and > > fiberglass). Quite frankly, the plans stink. If you build KR style wings without enough foam, they will bulge under normal flight loads and develop surface cracks that could lead to premature failure. Full thickness foam will be very solid, but heavier than than necessary. Built to plan, the KR wing would have a nominal 1 inch thick foam with glass on the outside only. This is sufficient for normal air loads but if you have less foam present, there is not enough structure to prevent the upper surface from bulging outwards. It is not a very robust surface and can be damaged or punctured if you drop something on the wing. You get a much more robust structure if you put a single layer of glass on the inside surface. I have one ply on the inside surface (two in the wing tanks) and two plies on the outside. I can walk on any part of my wing without causing any damage. The small increase in weight is worth it to me Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com Bumpass, Va Visit my web sites at: KR2XL construction: http://users.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Aviation Surplus: http://users.erols.com/donreid/Airparts.htm EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org Ultralights: http://usua250.org VA EAA State Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org --=====================_1938128==_.ALT-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 06:14:53 -0700 (PDT) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Frank Ross Subject: KR Around the World Website/Good Read Message-ID: <20020723131453.26963.qmail@web21504.mail.yahoo.com> This is not an answer to Nasser's question. Mark Jones has a link on his web-site about the young couple who are (were?) flying a KR around the world. I have been reading their day-to-day journal. Read it. It is an incredible description of conditions in places you may never get to visit. For those of you in the US, it should help you understand just how much we take for granted every day. Can you imagine dipping up your aviation fuel with a bowl from a large drum, for instance? (Okay, this isn't for you guys up in NE Texas, where you are brewing your own fuel) Many times we get questions from guys who really need our help. It isn't always a matter of 'read the plans'. Ordering from Wicks or running down to the local Ace Hardware isn't always an option, either. And the language software translates our answers into their language about as accurately as it translates their language into English, or whatever we are speaking here in the USA. Anyway, the Journal available on Mark's website is a REAL eye-opener. Takes FOREVER to read, though, but worth it. Frank Ross in San Antonio, TX --- alfabravo pilot wrote: > > Hi .....I have questions : > > 1- is it safe to use west system Epoxy for > the wings covring ?or > just for the fuselag longerons? > > 2- which is better ? afully foame wing > covered withe fiberglass or a > conestructed foam wing (foam ribs covered by foam > sheets and fiberglass). > my best regards > > NASSER __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:36:32 +0000 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Allan D Olcott" Subject: finish Message-ID: Did Steve Eberhart ever explain how he got the finish on the wind tunnel panels? They look great. thank you allan _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:42:33 +0200 To: From: "Serge Vidal" Subject: KR2 world tour Message-ID: <000401c23257$334d1b30$e9c321c4@sergevidal12> Guys, I have been reading both versions of the diary: the French and the English one. Guess what? They have nothing in common! The French writer is the girl (a Belgian, 29 years old journalist), and she concentrates on sociological anecdotes; the English writer is the boy, and also the pilot (a 35 years old English). And he concentrates on the flying.Nice and complementary reading. When I think that I did not even cross a border yet with ZS-WEC! Serge VIDAL KR2 ZS-WEC Johannesburg, South Africa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:39:15 -0700 (PDT) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Frank Ross Subject: Re: KR> KR2 world tour Message-ID: <20020723213915.43355.qmail@web21504.mail.yahoo.com> Serge, Lucky you, to be able to read them both. It would be fun to read hers too, because I know that my wife and I often come away from an experience with very different views. But, like many Americans, I barely understand English. Frank Ross in San Antonio, TX --- Serge Vidal wrote: > Guys, I have been reading both versions of the > diary: the French and the > English one. Guess what? They have nothing in > common! The French writer is > the girl (a Belgian, 29 years old journalist), and > she concentrates on > sociological anecdotes; the English writer is the > boy, and also the pilot (a > 35 years old English). And he concentrates on the > flying.Nice and > complementary reading. > > When I think that I did not even cross a border yet > with ZS-WEC! > > Serge VIDAL > KR2 ZS-WEC > Johannesburg, South Africa __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:19:32 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: larry flesner Subject: list/reply/reply-all Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020723101932.0092c100@mail.midwest.net> , asavant@notes.state.ne.us wrote: >One of things the list admin can do is have a reply-to option. Every email >that krnet sends to all the members should have a reply-to specified as >krnet@mailinglists.org. I have seen this done before and I am certain the >list admin can do this. What happens is that when unsuspecting members hit >reply button it replies to krnet instead of the sender. If you want to >reply to the sender then you will have to use their email address. >Until then always make sure you are sending the email to >krnet@mailinglists.org >my 2=A2 thanks >Ameet ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I am using "Eudora Light" for my e-mail. If I hit the "reply" button it addresses back to the sender only. If I hit "reply-all" it addresses the original sender(s) and the list. When replying to an e-mail the sender should decide who they want to get the message and reply accordingly. If each Netter will take a few minutes to see how their software works we should no long have any "unsuspecting members" out there for a=20 while. When I reply to the net,(reply-all) I also erase the original= senders=20 address so they don't get two e-mails of the same message. I'm sure that if we are capable of building an airplane we can work through this issue without much difficulity. :-) Also, don't forget to change the "subject" line if the topic is changing. It's not uncommon to see netters discussing landing gear or some such with a "subject" line of plywood, etc. I am happy with the present "reply" setup and see no need for the list administrator to change anything. We each need to learn our own software.= :-) Thanks for your consideration. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:31:25 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: asavant@notes.state.ne.us Subject: Re: KR> list/reply/reply-all Message-ID: >I am happy with the present "reply" setup and see no need for the list >dministrator to change anything. We each need to learn our own software. :-) Larry, You are absolutely correct about having people learn how to use the software. I use Notes client and do the same thing that you described. Everytime I reply i make sure I send to whomever I want to send it to. But think about it as a matter of statistics. Most of the time a list member would like to reply back to the list not just the sender. considering that is the most likely case any member should not be forced to look at the address their are replying to a post. The special case of responding only to a person can be handled by typing only their email address in the to field. To be honest I was fairly irritated initially by the way the krnet works. I am an e-Business consultant by profession and when list administrators or mail list server do things inefficiently it really bugs me. The reason I never took issue with it was because it is a simple matter of re-training. However just a FYI to all.. I have been a member of many list before and krnet is the first one I saw which was not smart enough to have a reply-to! I am not suggesting that things be changed but I am making sure the list admin understands what they could do! and why they should do things better. If they don't want to that is their call. Thanks Ameet ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:45:40 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> list/reply/reply-all Message-ID: <001d01c23268$61f9e5b0$0100a8c0@TD310> Ameet wrote: > I am not suggesting that things be changed but I am making sure the list > admin understands what they could do! and why they should do things better. > If they don't want to that is their call. Duly noted. It's like it is because we had people constantly sending personal stuff to the whole list. I could change it in about one minute, but I'm not... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:48:07 -0500 To: "KR Builders List \(E-mail\)" From: "Larry A. Capps" Subject: list/reply/reply-all Message-ID: <000d01c23268$b8d54f50$0600a8c0@schpankme> I respectfully disagree with the below comments*. As a member of many lists, all of them reply back to the list members when one selects the "REPLY" feature. Having this feature as the lists default makes responding very problematic as more people will be apt to sending out idle chit-chat intended as a private message, more often to increasingly irritated list members. Lets face it, the last thing I want to do is screw-up and send a poorly worded message directed at a particular member to the entire World. Would it not be prudent to have "reply" return to the originator, and "reply to all" do as intended and reply to the list members. reply = to person which sent original message reply to all = to list members, message for all to read It's my observation having used many of these email features over the last 16-years that the KRNet Admin has it right. Regards, Larry A. Capps Naperville, IL -----Original Message----- * To be honest I was fairly irritated initially by the way the krnet works. I am an e-Business consultant by profession and when list administrators or mail list server do things inefficiently it really bugs me. The reason I never took issue with it was because it is a simple matter of re-training. However just a FYI to all.. I have been a member of many list before and krnet is the first one I saw which was not smart enough to have a reply-to! I am not suggesting that things be changed but I am making sure the list admin understands what they could do! and why they should do things better. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:29:35 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: larry flesner Subject: list/reply/reply-all Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020723122935.0092a180@mail.midwest.net> Ameet, I wasn't looking to start a "my software is better than yours" here on the net. I guess my "Eudora Light" is so user friendly that I still don't see a problem here. If I want to reply to the net I click "reply-all". If I want to reply to the sender, I click "reply". I never have to type anyones e-mail address, regardless of who I want to reply to. Your statement of "the net administrator not being smart enough to know how to set it up may draw some cannon fire your way. I'm sure they are more than capable of setting up the net any way we want it and they made the decission to do it the way it is. If I follow your logic of "the member should not be forced to look at the address they are replying to" , I could say I should be able to hit the "delete" button without looking at what I'm about to delete or any other such command. As I recall, it was decided to go the way it is so that 500+ netters "blindly" hitting the "reply" button wouldn't be trashing up the net with "me too" and "good post" type of replys. Asking anyone to know who they want to reply to and select the proper icon to click on doesn't seem like a major issue to me. If anyone wants to "blast" me personally for any of my comments here, click "reply" and verify that only my address appears in the ( To: ) line. If you want the net to see your reply, click "reply-all". If your software doesn't have this feature, I suggest you check out Eudora or Eudora Light. I don't wear a flack jacket but I am pretty thick skinned. As an e-Business consultant, I'm sure you know better than to call our baby ugly when we all love it so much. I'm sure you got caught up in the heat of the moment and I forgive you. :-) Larry Flesner P.S. I'll bet you a hamburger at the Gathering that you hear from the list administrator with a personal reply on this subject without me asking him to do so. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:40:54 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: asavant@notes.state.ne.us Subject: Re: KR> list/reply/reply-all Message-ID: Larry, I didn't specifically call the administrator any names. I said the list is "not smart enough", which refers to the mailing list server which believe you me sometimes are written by stupid programmers who are there to just make a quick buck and a lousy product. All I wanted to do was to inform about the option and according to a note from Mark (I think he is the admin isn't he?) he is very much capable of doing what I suggested and chooses not to do so. Now I think my agenda has changed from informing of the option to defending a design. Both you and some other souls on this list have emailed that the current design/setup of the list is the best because it protects other people from seeing "junk". So basically what you are saying is that the 500 odd people on this email list send "junk emails" more often than sending "serious useful emails". What's the point of this list then? The list is a chaos because more people send "junk". In this case I completely agree with the current design/setup of the list. Ask yourself again.... Do you really save anything by trying to protect yourself from "junk". There are people on this list (and on every list) that still send "junk" It is a matter of discretion and ethics and by making it difficult (Did you know that by clicking reply-all in any email client you send the email twice to the previous sender? That can be annoying and wasteful. So I always hit reply all then delete the previous senders email and cut the krnet email from "cc" to "to". All of this to just send and email.) to send replies to the list you don't solve the problem at the root. I am not claiming that the reply-to method solves the problem at the root but it sure as heck makes it easy for "serious people" to send "serious useful emails". I sincerely apologize for anything that may sound offensive or personal. Believe me, it is not. I have been known to vehemently defend what I believe in and I will always provide a justification of my beliefs. If you can prove otherwise by discussing the issue like I have above I am more than willing to see your side. Thanks Ameet larry flesner cc: Subject: KR> list/reply/reply-all 07/23/2002 12:29 PM Ameet, I wasn't looking to start a "my software is better than yours" here on the net. I guess my "Eudora Light" is so user friendly that I still don't see a problem here. If I want to reply to the net I click "reply-all". If I want to reply to the sender, I click "reply". I never have to type anyones e-mail address, regardless of who I want to reply to. Your statement of "the net administrator not being smart enough to know how to set it up may draw some cannon fire your way. I'm sure they are more than capable of setting up the net any way we want it and they made the decission to do it the way it is. If I follow your logic of "the member should not be forced to look at the address they are replying to" , I could say I should be able to hit the "delete" button without looking at what I'm about to delete or any other such command. As I recall, it was decided to go the way it is so that 500+ netters "blindly" hitting the "reply" button wouldn't be trashing up the net with "me too" and "good post" type of replys. Asking anyone to know who they want to reply to and select the proper icon to click on doesn't seem like a major issue to me. If anyone wants to "blast" me personally for any of my comments here, click "reply" and verify that only my address appears in the ( To: ) line. If you want the net to see your reply, click "reply-all". If your software doesn't have this feature, I suggest you check out Eudora or Eudora Light. I don't wear a flack jacket but I am pretty thick skinned. As an e-Business consultant, I'm sure you know better than to call our baby ugly when we all love it so much. I'm sure you got caught up in the heat of the moment and I forgive you. :-) Larry Flesner P.S. I'll bet you a hamburger at the Gathering that you hear from the list administrator with a personal reply on this subject without me asking him to do so. :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 20:59:19 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Glasco Subject: Re: KR> list/reply/reply-all Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020723205919.0084f120@mail.ridgenet.net> Amen Mark. There is more then enough personal messages sent to the list. It is not all that difficult to change an address if you have something you expect to be of interest of everyone. Brad Glasco KR-2 Corviar California At 11:45 AM 7/23/02 -0500, Mark Langford wrote: >Ameet wrote: > >> I am not suggesting that things be changed but I am making sure the list >> admin understands what they could do! and why they should do things >better. >> If they don't want to that is their call. > >Duly noted. It's like it is because we had people constantly sending >personal stuff to the whole list. I could change it in about one minute, >but I'm not... > >Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama >mailto:langford@hiwaay.net >see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp >or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:29:36 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: VW engine mount Message-ID: Phil asks: http://www.greatplainsas.com/pg14.html >Does the crank on a front direct drive Vw come out in the middle of >the rubber mounts. ie. If I drew cross lines on the rubber mounts, >should this line up with the prop flange ?? I don't think it does, but take a look at http://www.greatplainsas.com/pg14.html for some dimensional information. Don't pay attention to the Diehl case mount points unless you're actually using a Diehl; look at where the VW engine mounts to the Diehl case relative to the engine thrustline to maybe answer your question. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:13:32 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "ace nunye" Subject: RE: everything i have been reading on the net Message-ID: I wish Mark L. could invent something to filter everything that didnt pertain to building or flying a KR. That way when I open my E-mail I didnt have to sort thru all the crap like this ( this message ) and all the stuff that doesnt help me or someone else build their plane. I open my mail everyday and I get so excited to read about someone and their progress in the building and test flying experiences but the other stuff I can do with out. OK I deserve it somebody go ahead n slap me. Mike _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:04:09 -0400 To: KRNET@MAILINGLISTS.ORG From: virgnvs@juno.com Subject: Re: KR Message-ID: <20020723.180410.-374133.0.virgnvs@juno.com> I think that READ THE PLANS is a viable answer. Many here act as if the plans did not exist or have nor read them. Many of the questions asked could have been avoided if they did read the plans/ follow the plans. Ken and Stu biult a good plane and kept it light. We however build it up heavy, change things and do not thinlk through the consequenses. Then we complain that it does not perform as stated. Ken built the wings with about 1" foam, 2 layers of fibreglass outside, and walked the length of the wing without breaking through. Change things and it is not Kens technique that is at fault if the wings bow out under air loads. It is on the back of the one that did things differently. VIRG, Standing TALL. Take your best shots ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:49:26 -0700 To: From: "Daniel Heath" Subject: RE: KR> Re: KR Message-ID: Virg, Congratulations. Well said, and I think the most words I have read from you since I have been on the Net. Daniel R. Heath See our KR2 at: http://kr-builder.org See our EAA Chapter 242at: http://WWW.EAA242.ORG --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 19:40:35 -0700 To: From: "jim @ synergy design" Subject: building per plans Message-ID: <001a01c232bb$7eb8ab20$0101a8c0@pavilion> ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C23280.D063CF80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've been watching the comments regarding the plans debate for some time = ,and would like to ad my 2 cents worth. I think we will all agree the = plans are a little vague in some areas, I also see various questions = raised again and again that could be answered by reading the plans. I = propose EVERYONE compile a list of questions, comments, = suggestions,etc., that they think would enhance the plans. Whether this = is for clarity, further explanation, or corrections. The creation of = such a list would help pinpoint the most common problems, Which could = then be addressed in an organized manner. The results could be = implemented into the plans, or as a builders notice posted on the web or = KR Newsletter( Larry ,I'll be sending my money for the newsletter/CD = soon) . Granted the plane has a long history of serviceability if built = to plans. However, If no one dared to change, we would not have the new = airfoil,2s, and a number of other "innovations" , whether created by = builders, or "borrowed" from other designs. I am building the KR for a = number of reasons. Two of the biggest are 1. great builders group. = 2. A good design that allows for some modification. If anyone is = interested in sending in their comments, I will volunteer to compile = them. I think everyone could benefit from this. O.K., I'm out of hot = air... Sadly not going to Oshkosh this year :( , Jim Sporka ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C23280.D063CF80-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:17:39 -0500 To: "jim @ synergy design" , From: "Rex Ellington" Subject: Re: KR> building per plans Message-ID: <015601c232c0$abd0e960$9037ca43@D6R1QJ11> Jim: Your suggestion comes up periodically in KR discussions. In a world full of nice people, your idea would result in concerted action. But, it can't be. Mrs. Rand has carried liability insurance on the plans and drawings as they have existed for many years. Can you imagine the problems of collecting and screening all the modifications to get to a final 'design' and then getting liability insurance?? That is why I am replying to the full list. Rex T. Ellington Norman OK. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: KR> building per plans I've been watching the comments regarding the plans debate for some time ,and would like to ad my 2 cents worth. I think we will all agree the plans are a little vague in some areas, I also see various questions raised again and again that could be answered by reading the plans. etc. , Jim Sporka ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 20:54:30 -0500 To: "KR Builders List \(E-mail\)" From: "Larry A. Capps" Subject: KR Newsletter - Subscription via PayPal Message-ID: <001701c232b5$0cbb3520$0600a8c0@schpankme> KRNet, Many of you have called or emailed requesting we make PayPal available for you to subscribe to the KR Newsletter. If you're planning on subscribing or renewing using our PayPal account, please send us an email so will have a better count of subscriptions. When we are ready to accept payments thru PayPal, will send out an email to you with instructions. Since PayPal is a service there is additional fees involved for using it. PayPal Additional Fees: - US subscribers (including Canada) add 2.9% to total, plus 30˘ per transaction - Foreign subscribers add 3.9% to total, plus 30˘ per transaction US subscribers this amounts to $1.00 more. Foreign subscribers this amounts to $1.55. We still need your support to make the newsletter a reality, take the time to subscribe today. Best Regards, Larry A. Capps KR Newsletter Naperville, IL mailto:krnews@attbi.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 23:06:41 -0400 To: From: "Audrey and Harold Woods" Subject: control stick welds. Message-ID: <005701c232bf$225a97e0$b0046418@baol.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C2329D.9B05D460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What does a bad weld look like? On the control stick that broke on me at = 500o ft. a bit of history is in order. The parts were given to a welding = instructor at a local high school. He in turn gave it to a student as a = project. The student produced a lumpy mess and took it to the grinder = and smoothed it down. It was presented to the instructot who said good = job. It was given to the builder who installed it in the Jodel. The = break looked like toast on the break which was quite thin. It was a very = porous weld of the worst kind. There was one other bad weld on that = plane and I got it too. It was one of the brake bands.I was visiting a = very short field set in sandy soil with trees at both ends. I applied = the brakes very hard when there was a BANG the brake cable snapped off = at the foot pedal and wound itself up around the axel. This was the = right brake. The left brake was still on so we did the fastest grounloop = you ever saw. The undercarriage was very wide so we did not scrape a = wing tip. (I say we and I mean the plane and I as I was solo). After = jacking it up and removing the cable and drum I took off and flew it = home. Thank goodness it was a wooden plane and did not have too many = welds left to check, and check them we did. You cannot afford to have 1 = bad weld in your plane.=20 Harold Woods. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.373 / Virus Database: 208 - Release Date: 7/1/02 ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C2329D.9B05D460-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 07:49:40 +0200 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Livingstone, Danny (DJ)" Subject: RE: KR> control stick welds. Message-ID: Hello Harold Being a welding inspector I suppose I am qualified to answer this question. One I have learned is that you cannot rely on the look of a weld to determine its strength, however it can be a good indicator. Those of you out there that have tried welding have in your opinion put down a decent weld only to pick the part up and find the two parts are not even fused together! (I've done it!) My advice is as follows: 1 Get only qualified (experienced) welders to do your welding, they know what they are doing. 2. Thin wall tubing is not easy to weld and the equipment has to be setup right. Use gas tungsten arc welding as the preferred process, gas welding as second choice (which is probably most common) try not to use gas metal arc welding if possible (stick). Low hydrogen consumables are preferred. 3. Chrome molybdenum (Which is generally used) can become brittle (forming a martensitic structure) in the HAZ (heat affected zone) and/ or weld if allowed to cool to quickly (So don't push the part into a bucket of cold water after welding!) and if it is kept an a high temperature to long it becomes soft (forming a banite structure). in both cases the part may require heat treatment or scrapped. 4. Finally if you have a friend that's qualified in NDT (Non destructive testing) let him test the part by dye penetrant testing, magnetic particle testing and/or radiographic testing to check for welding flaws. Hope this helps you Danny Livingstone Sasolburg South Africa > -----Original Message----- > From: Audrey and Harold Woods [SMTP:audreyandharoldwoods@rogers.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 5:07 AM > To: krnet@mailinglists.org > Subject: KR> control stick welds. > > What does a bad weld look like? On the control stick that broke on me at > 500o ft. a bit of history is in order. The parts were given to a welding > instructor at a local high school. He in turn gave it to a student as a > project. The student produced a lumpy mess and took it to the grinder and > smoothed it down. It was presented to the instructot who said good job. > It was given to the builder who installed it in the Jodel. The break > looked like toast on the break which was quite thin. It was a very porous > weld of the worst kind. There was one other bad weld on that plane and I > got it too. It was one of the brake bands.I was visiting a very short > field set in sandy soil with trees at both ends. I applied the brakes very > hard when there was a BANG the brake cable snapped off at the foot pedal > and wound itself up around the axel. This was the right brake. The left > brake was still on so we did the fastest grounloop you ever saw. The > undercarriage was very wide so we did not scrape a wing tip. (I say we > and I mean the plane and I as I was solo). After jacking it up and > removing the cable and drum I took off and flew it home. Thank goodness it > was a wooden plane and did not have too many welds left to check, and > check them we did. You cannot afford to have 1 bad weld in your plane. > Harold Woods. > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.373 / Virus Database: 208 - Release Date: 7/1/02 ********************************************************************** This e-mail and its attachments, if any, are intended only for use by the named addressee(s) and may contain information that is legally privileged, confidential, or both. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are strictly prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this email and its attachments, if any. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete the original and any copies of this e-mail, its attachments, and any printed copies of any of them. ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:17:15 -0600 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Rick Subject: Building per plans??? -1.02 cents worth Message-ID: <41ED2F1280124E4D8B88691C9A9B5FDE011B78@mail.binoids.com> Many have contemplated officially changing the KR plans but... We can not! Period! The plans are owned by RR and that's that. Legal implications... Yes... the plans and manual are crap! (ouch!) This is an issue of tragedy, age, support, technical and the current owner lack of knowledge/enthusiasm, etc... Sorry Jeannette. Modern technology and supplier involvement allows other aircraft plans to transcend to acceptable support/currency/enhancement levels, but if the owner/supplier of the plans will never address issues/changes, has no email and does not take visa, etc... That is a BIG problem. If we don't like this... Then we should go somewhere else or accept it. The new airfoil, a widened fuselage, a DF canopy. wing stub tanks. different flaps, build your own front and aft decks, use a Corvair engine, buy parts from TET or Great Plains, use a servo for trim or Diehl Gear or... etc... These are all unofficial and try/buy/build at your own risk and are all part of EXPERIMENTAL process and environment we (KR builders) live in and hopefully embrace. Until someone buys the rights to the KR (God let it happens soon) we will (build to plans) or EXPERIMENT and build/fly by the seat of our pants. On the bright side... I love this environment and I am in my element! I love deciding how I will build each and every piece of this aircraft. I love evaluating the dozens of options provided by this talented group. I often combine the best of the best idea's and stir gently with my own idea's and voila!!! The KRNet's existence is why I chose to build a KR. I also now know that no two KR's are alike... None... If you want to build a clone/replica and be instructed on how to follow every single little step along the way, the KR is not for you. The KR is an inventors, builders, visionaries, entrepreneurs, jack of all trades, thinking persons plane, etc... It's an order the plans to be legal and "go for it" plane. I know several builder here in Calgary that prior to the Internet, all built their KR plane very close to the plans. Many of these builders visit my garage occasionally and question WHY and am I changing so many things... My answer is simply... "Because I can" Next week I will be building my dual control sticks my way... Like nobody else. Pictures to follow on my web site. (I await your flames and comments) Rick Hubka http://www.hubka.com/kr_main.htm rick@hubka.com 65 Butler Crescent NW Calgary AB T2L 1K4 Canada -----Original Message----- From: jim @ synergy design [mailto:synergydesign@sopris.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 8:41 PM To: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: KR> building per plans I've been watching the comments regarding the plans debate for some time ,and would like to ad my 2 cents worth. I think we will all agree the plans are a little vague in some areas, I also see various questions raised again and again that could be answered by reading the plans. I propose EVERYONE compile a list of questions, comments, suggestions,etc., that they think would enhance the plans. Whether this is for clarity, further explanation, or corrections. The creation of such a list would help pinpoint the most common problems, Which could then be addressed in an organized manner. The results could be implemented into the plans, or as a builders notice posted on the web or KR Newsletter( Larry ,I'll be sending my money for the newsletter/CD soon) . Granted the plane has a long history of serviceability if built to plans. However, If no one dared to change, we would not have the new airfoil,2s, and a number of other "innovations" , whether created by builders, or "borrowed" from other designs. I am building the KR for a number of reasons. Two of the biggest are 1. great builders group. 2. A good design that allows for some modification. If anyone is interested in sending in their comments, I will volunteer to compile them. I think everyone could benefit from this. O.K., I'm out of hot air... Sadly not going to Oshkosh this year :( , Jim Sporka ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:11:56 -0700 (PDT) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Frank Ross Subject: Re: KR> Building per plans??? -1.02 cents worth Message-ID: <20020724051156.14751.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com> Rick, No flames here, but... I hope it's a long time until someone buys Jeanette out. The most likely result will be a company that wants to make kit components for you to spend $50,000 on to build your KR. And won't support anyone who doesn't buy their plans from them. It will kill the KR as we know it. That's one of the reasons many of us chose the KR, because it doesn't cost $50,000 (US) to build. Look at Dragonfly. So, like you, while I may complain about the plans, I don't want the KR turned into something I have to buy a kit for. Because, for $50,000, or not much more, I can buy a plane that I don't have to build. Frank Ross, in San Antonio, TX --- Rick wrote: > Until someone buys the rights to the KR (God let it > happens soon) we will > (build to plans) or EXPERIMENT and build/fly by the > seat of our pants. > > On the bright side... I love this environment and I > am in my element! > and voila!!! The KRNet's existence is why I chose > to build a KR. I also > now know that no two KR's are alike... None... > Next week I will be building my dual control sticks > my way... Like nobody > else. Pictures to follow on my web site. > (I await your flames and comments) > Rick Hubka __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:45:14 -0700 (PDT) To: Frank Ross , krnet@mailinglists.org From: David Hartz Subject: Re: KR> Building per plans??? -1.02 cents worth Message-ID: <20020724054514.32454.qmail@web14701.mail.yahoo.com> TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN? BUILDING A KR2 OR 2S TO PLANS?I HAVE NOT SEEN ONE YET THAT HAS BEEN TO THE LETTER,TO PLANS!THE BEAUTY OF THIS BIRD IS THAT IT SEEMS TO CALL OUT TO THE BUILDER TO IMPROVE AND ALLOW THE BUILDER TO ADD A PERSONAL TOUCH OF MODIFICATION FROM THE BUILDERS.I HOPE THAT I DID NOT SOUND LIKE I WAS BABBLING? DAVE --- Frank Ross wrote: > Rick, > No flames here, but... I hope it's a long time until > someone buys Jeanette out. > The most likely result will be a company that wants > to > make kit components for you to spend $50,000 on to > build your KR. And won't support anyone who doesn't > buy their plans from them. > It will kill the KR as we know it. That's one of the > reasons many of us chose the KR, because it doesn't > cost $50,000 (US) to build. > Look at Dragonfly. > So, like you, while I may complain about the plans, > I > don't want the KR turned into something I have to > buy > a kit for. Because, for $50,000, or not much more, I > can buy a plane that I don't have to build. > Frank Ross, in San Antonio, TX > > > --- Rick wrote: > > > Until someone buys the rights to the KR (God let > it > > happens soon) we will > > (build to plans) or EXPERIMENT and build/fly by > the > > seat of our pants. > > > > On the bright side... I love this environment and > I > > am in my element! > > > and voila!!! The KRNet's existence is why I > chose > > to build a KR. I also > > now know that no two KR's are alike... None... > > > Next week I will be building my dual control > sticks > > my way... Like nobody > > else. Pictures to follow on my web site. > > (I await your flames and comments) > > Rick Hubka > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better > http://health.yahoo.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , > NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: > krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: > krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > ===== DAVID HARTZ,WILLITS,CALIF. DEWRENCHER@PRODIGY.NET __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:48:41 +1000 To: From: "Phillip Matheson" Subject: Re: KR> Welding 4130. Message-ID: <003501c232de$2669ed80$c196dccb@Matheson> Does 4310 need to be normalized after welding. If so, How do the builders of a metal frame Fuselage, heat an entire fuse to normalize it??? And if I weld up a new control stick and pushrods, how do I heat such a large area of metal??? Phil Matheson matheson@dodo.com.au 61 3 58833588 See our engines at: http://www.vw-engines.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Livingstone, Danny (DJ)" To: Sent: 24 July 2002 15:49 Subject: RE: KR> control stick welds. > Hello Harold > > Being a welding inspector I suppose I am qualified to answer this question. > > One I have learned is that you cannot rely on the look of a weld to > determine its strength, however it can be a good indicator. > > Those of you out there that have tried welding have in your opinion put down > a decent weld only to pick the part up and find the two parts are not even > fused together! (I've done it!) > > My advice is as follows: > 1 Get only qualified (experienced) welders to do your welding, they know > what they are doing. > 2. Thin wall tubing is not easy to weld and the equipment has to be setup > right. Use gas tungsten arc welding as the preferred process, gas welding as > second choice (which is probably most common) try not to use gas metal arc > welding if possible (stick). Low hydrogen consumables are preferred. > 3. Chrome molybdenum (Which is generally used) can become brittle (forming a > martensitic structure) in the HAZ (heat affected zone) and/ or weld if > allowed to cool to quickly (So don't push the part into a bucket of cold > water after welding!) and if it is kept an a high temperature to long it > becomes soft (forming a banite structure). in both cases the part may > require heat treatment or scrapped. > 4. Finally if you have a friend that's qualified in NDT (Non destructive > testing) let him test the part by dye penetrant testing, magnetic particle > testing and/or radiographic testing to check for welding flaws. > > Hope this helps you > > Danny Livingstone > > Sasolburg > South Africa > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Audrey and Harold Woods [SMTP:audreyandharoldwoods@rogers.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 5:07 AM > > To: krnet@mailinglists.org > > Subject: KR> control stick welds. > > > > What does a bad weld look like? On the control stick that broke on me at > > 500o ft. a bit of history is in order. The parts were given to a welding > > instructor at a local high school. He in turn gave it to a student as a > > project. The student produced a lumpy mess and took it to the grinder and > > smoothed it down. It was presented to the instructot who said good job. > > It was given to the builder who installed it in the Jodel. The break > > looked like toast on the break which was quite thin. It was a very porous > > weld of the worst kind. There was one other bad weld on that plane and I > > got it too. It was one of the brake bands.I was visiting a very short > > field set in sandy soil with trees at both ends. I applied the brakes very > > hard when there was a BANG the brake cable snapped off at the foot pedal > > and wound itself up around the axel. This was the right brake. The left > > brake was still on so we did the fastest grounloop you ever saw. The > > undercarriage was very wide so we did not scrape a wing tip. (I say we > > and I mean the plane and I as I was solo). After jacking it up and > > removing the cable and drum I took off and flew it home. Thank goodness it > > was a wooden plane and did not have too many welds left to check, and > > check them we did. You cannot afford to have 1 bad weld in your plane. > > Harold Woods. > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.373 / Virus Database: 208 - Release Date: 7/1/02 > > > ********************************************************************** > This e-mail and its attachments, if any, are intended only > for use by the named addressee(s) and may contain > information that is legally privileged, confidential, or both. If > you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are > strictly prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying > this email and its attachments, if any. If you have received > this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sender and > permanently delete the original and any copies of this e-mail, > its attachments, and any printed copies of any of them. > ********************************************************************** > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:27:32 +0200 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Livingstone, Danny (DJ)" Subject: RE: KR> Welding 4130. Message-ID: Phil This depends on part thickness see my explanation below. Normalizing is a process whereby the part is heated above the materials critical temperature (Approx. 900 deg. C for 4130) allowed to cool in still air, so the process of welding pretty much does the trick, the problem is the areas adjacent to the weld (HAZ) if kept at an elevated temperature for a long enough time will have detrimental change to the material structure, this is why low heat input weld processes are preferred (in practice (at home) the area close to the weld is kept cool with wet rags to prevent this. Thick sections tend to retain their heat for longer increasing the risk of softening. The 4130 tubing is usually supplied in the normalized condition so the only area to re-normalize is the weld zone. Hope this answers your question. Danny Livingstone Sasolburg South Africa > -----Original Message----- > From: Phillip Matheson [SMTP:matheson@dodo.com.au] > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 8:49 AM > To: krnet@mailinglists.org > Subject: Re: KR> Welding 4130. > > Does 4310 need to be normalized after welding. > > If so, How do the builders of a metal frame Fuselage, heat an entire fuse > to > normalize it??? > > And if I weld up a new control stick and pushrods, how do I heat such a > large area of metal??? > > > > Phil Matheson > matheson@dodo.com.au > 61 3 58833588 > See our engines at: > http://www.vw-engines.com/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Livingstone, Danny (DJ)" > To: > Sent: 24 July 2002 15:49 > Subject: RE: KR> control stick welds. > > > > Hello Harold > > > > Being a welding inspector I suppose I am qualified to answer this > question. > > > > One I have learned is that you cannot rely on the look of a weld to > > determine its strength, however it can be a good indicator. > > > > Those of you out there that have tried welding have in your opinion put > down > > a decent weld only to pick the part up and find the two parts are not > even > > fused together! (I've done it!) > > > > My advice is as follows: > > 1 Get only qualified (experienced) welders to do your welding, they know > > what they are doing. > > 2. Thin wall tubing is not easy to weld and the equipment has to be > setup > > right. Use gas tungsten arc welding as the preferred process, gas > welding > as > > second choice (which is probably most common) try not to use gas metal > arc > > welding if possible (stick). Low hydrogen consumables are preferred. > > 3. Chrome molybdenum (Which is generally used) can become brittle > (forming > a > > martensitic structure) in the HAZ (heat affected zone) and/ or weld if > > allowed to cool to quickly (So don't push the part into a bucket of cold > > water after welding!) and if it is kept an a high temperature to long it > > becomes soft (forming a banite structure). in both cases the part may > > require heat treatment or scrapped. > > 4. Finally if you have a friend that's qualified in NDT (Non destructive > > testing) let him test the part by dye penetrant testing, magnetic > particle > > testing and/or radiographic testing to check for welding flaws. > > > > Hope this helps you > > > > Danny Livingstone > > > > Sasolburg > > South Africa > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Audrey and Harold Woods [SMTP:audreyandharoldwoods@rogers.com] > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 5:07 AM > > > To: krnet@mailinglists.org > > > Subject: KR> control stick welds. > > > > > > What does a bad weld look like? On the control stick that broke on me > at > > > 500o ft. a bit of history is in order. The parts were given to a > welding > > > instructor at a local high school. He in turn gave it to a student as > a > > > project. The student produced a lumpy mess and took it to the grinder > and > > > smoothed it down. It was presented to the instructot who said good > job. > > > It was given to the builder who installed it in the Jodel. The break > > > looked like toast on the break which was quite thin. It was a very > porous > > > weld of the worst kind. There was one other bad weld on that plane and > I > > > got it too. It was one of the brake bands.I was visiting a very short > > > field set in sandy soil with trees at both ends. I applied the brakes > very > > > hard when there was a BANG the brake cable snapped off at the foot > pedal > > > and wound itself up around the axel. This was the right brake. The > left > > > brake was still on so we did the fastest grounloop you ever saw. The > > > undercarriage was very wide so we did not scrape a wing tip. (I say > we > > > and I mean the plane and I as I was solo). After jacking it up and > > > removing the cable and drum I took off and flew it home. Thank > goodness > it > > > was a wooden plane and did not have too many welds left to check, and > > > check them we did. You cannot afford to have 1 bad weld in your plane. > > > Harold Woods. > > > > > > > > > --- > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > > Version: 6.0.373 / Virus Database: 208 - Release Date: 7/1/02 > > > > > > ********************************************************************** > > This e-mail and its attachments, if any, are intended only > > for use by the named addressee(s) and may contain > > information that is legally privileged, confidential, or both. If > > you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are > > strictly prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying > > this email and its attachments, if any. If you have received > > this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sender and > > permanently delete the original and any copies of this e-mail, > > its attachments, and any printed copies of any of them. > > ********************************************************************** > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:21:30 +1000 To: From: "Phillip Matheson" Subject: Re: KR> Welding 4130. Message-ID: <000f01c232fb$e1702b40$4096dccb@Matheson> DJ thanks makes a lot of sence Phil Matheson matheson@dodo.com.au 61 3 58833588 See our engines at: http://www.vw-engines.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 01:57:06 -0700 To: From: "jim @ synergy design" Subject: build to plans #2 Message-ID: <003101c232f0$17800180$0101a8c0@pavilion> ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C232B5.69D91920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Allllrighty then, Somehow my suggestion of clarifying the vagaries of = the plans has already spun out of control. I never suggested buying out = the rights, "unofficially" changing the plans, or anything even = resembling that, My intention was simply to get a general consensus = of what could be improved ( not necessarily changing stock plans) but = making them more user friendly. If Jeanette wants to use the information = to better the plans, great. If she doesn't, then we will at least have = the benefit of sharing each others experience. I am sure that if 10 = people read the same plans, you will probably get as many different = interpretations. I have re-read some vague descriptions, and come away = with a slightly different perspective(sometimes this is also after = reading something on KRNet). I am NOT advocated changing plans to the = new airfoil, Widening, etc. I was looking for YOUR input for = improvements to existing plans, WHATEVER that may be, This could include = the comment" They are perfect the way they are" to "They totally suck, = and I trained my puppy on them" I will log ALL opinions. Hopefully = Jeanette will consider the results(she would be welcome to them). = Possibly having different categories. i.e... Discrepancies in = plans/manual, areas that need clarification, same part/technique = described 2(or more) different ways, ...You get the idea, We could also = have a "suggestion" list .i.e.. widening the fuselage, glassing inside = surfaces, etc. If you want to contribute, be specific(i.e. page# )Also, = if giving your opinion, a brief description of WHY, would help. Its = your plane and your butt, build what you want. If you want to take = shots at me, fine, I 'm sitting here in my ivory tower with lots of = ammunition, and sandwiches. :) See Ya, Jim P.S. Larry, sure, = I'll try to do a FAQ. People are always telling me to FAQ off, or is = that.....never mind. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C232B5.69D91920-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:24:24 -0700 (PDT) To: KRNET@MAILINGLISTS.ORG From: Rick Wilson Subject: normalizing metal tubing structures Message-ID: <20020724172424.89791.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, The way to normalize the fuselage or any other structure or part after it has been welded is to bring the weld and about an inch or so of tubing on either side of the weld to a red glow and then allow it to cool at air temperature. Do not put water etc. on it or even cool with a fan, just let it cool by itself and it's o.k. To normalize a whole fuselage you work one weld at a time, the tubing an inch or two away from the weld should not be affected by the welding heat, so you only heat the area immediately adjacent to the weld. Rick Wilson. KR2-0200 rwdw2002@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************