From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 9 Aug 2002 02:18:51 -0000 Issue 494 Date: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:19 PM krnet Digest 9 Aug 2002 02:18:51 -0000 Issue 494 Topics (messages 11976 through 12005): Re: horizontal stab incidence 11976 by: Ronald Freiberger Re: Burning and Buying Used Aircraft 11977 by: Deems Herring 11987 by: Brian Kraut 11998 by: Daniel Heath Re: KRNet or B.S.Net 11978 by: Donald Reid 11982 by: Mark Langford 11986 by: Phillip Matheson 11989 by: Bob Farmer 11991 by: Mark Langford 11995 by: Piunti, James A. 12003 by: Glasco 12005 by: Donald Blankenship Horiz Stab Incidence 11979 by: NORM-RUTH forming windshields 11980 by: Rick Wilson 11983 by: Deems Herring kr2 stab. incidence 11981 by: c00p3rm3.bellsouth.net Re: WAF's / Comments Please. 11984 by: Phillip Matheson Re: Attention KR Builders/lawers 11985 by: Bruce S. Campbell 11988 by: Brian Kraut Buying Used Home built Aircraft 11990 by: Daniel Heath 11992 by: Brian Kraut 11996 by: Rick Wilson 11997 by: Robert X. Cringely Flox 11993 by: Buddy & Cheryl 11994 by: Daniel Heath I love the KR NET 11999 by: Daniel Heath 12000 by: Ronald Freiberger boffin 12001 by: Thomas C Adams KR-2S 12002 by: Allan D Olcott A few thoughts then back to KR. 12004 by: Dana Overall Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:56:04 -0400 To: From: "Ronald Freiberger" Subject: RE: KR> horizontal stab incidence Message-ID: Oscar said; Unfortunately, there does not seem to be any standard incidence setting because no two KRs are built alike. Mark Langford's making his adjustable so he can work that out in his flight testing phase. I'm doing that too, and it begets a host of new problems, such as anchoring the rudder spar and access for the trim changes. However, I built a Cassutt, and it was out by 0.35 inches and was Very heavy to hold up. With the dishing of the BOAT and some people's efforts to make the top longeron flat (another useless effort) we are losing a bit of info. The Horizontal stabilizer incidence ought to be referenced to the wing incidence. Can any of the FLYING members recommend the correct decalage ( is that the correct term?)? Ron Freiberger... mailto:ron.martha@mindspring.com -----Original Message----- From: Oscar Zuniga [mailto:taildrags@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 5:29 PM To: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: KR> horiz. stab incidence Gene wrote: >I missed the NOTE: 8.31 page 57, stabilizer should be at 0% incidence >with top longerons. Stab commonly needs 3/32 shim under front spar. >Question... will this cause a climb factor to much to be countered by >trim and or elevator controls I seem to recall that Jeff Scott had to shim his up quite a bit to get it to fly level; so much so that he went ahead and re-installed it in the new location and re-did the HS fairings after he was done. It's not too much to be countered by elevator controls, but may be too much to take out with trim, depending on your trim setup (MAC, nyrod, bendable tabs, whatever you're using). Not only that, but you end up flying in a less-than-optimum configuration if it's having to be trimmed way out to fly level. Unfortunately, there does not seem to be any standard incidence setting because no two KRs are built alike. Mark Langford's making his adjustable so he can work that out in his flight testing phase. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 17:07:15 -0500 To: From: "Deems Herring" Subject: Re: KR> Burning and Buying Used Aircraft Message-ID: <004f01c23f27$f46d8d90$bd02a8c0@deems> I think the best descussion of homebuilt liabilities is at http://www.eaa.org/ go to the home builders headquarters and click on bying and selling it includes articles from owners and lawyers with actual experience in these matters including parts liability. Deems Herring, Baudette, Minnesota gleone wrote: >> The reason you can't buy plans for the VP-2 (two place Volksplane) >>> >>> Now, in America, you can sue anyone for any reason any time, so the . >>>> >>>> --Don Blankenship >>>> -- >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" >>> >>> To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org >>> >>> See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp >>> or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files >> >> > > > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" >> >> To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org >> >> See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp >> or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 20:40:06 -0400 To: "Piunti, James A." From: Brian Kraut CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Burning and Buying Used Aircraft Message-ID: <3D530F66.3070505@earthlink.net> --------------070604020602030908090907 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I bought my KR from a person who could not get the engine running. He was not technical, couldn't afford a hanger near his house, and his family was against him flying it so he sold it before he ever flew it. I called the two owners that had it before him and the first one who had it told me that the second one had a prop strike. The second owner(who sold it to the person I bought it from) denied the prop strike. Since I wasn't sure I pulled the crank and had it magnafluxed. The person who magnafluxed it said it had the biggest crack through the keyway that he had ever seen. Now I know why that second owner sold it after only putting on a couple of hours himself. Obviously, he didn't tell the person I bought it from about the prop strike. Wonder if he had any idea what kind of liability case he would be against if I believed him and didn't have the crank checked. Piunti, James A. wrote: >Working for a large law firm, I can tell you that the fear of litigation >is a powerful weapon. Even when the plaintiffs DON'T have (reasonable) >grounds, just getting taken to court is an expensive enough proposition >that most people will lose money - whether you're at fault or not. > >Ever wonder why a new bottom-of-the-line Cessna costs over $150,000, >when we can BUILD a plane that outperforms it AND BUY A NEW HOUSE with >the residual? Cessna has to pay their lawyers, that's why. > >MY (future) KR will be *landfill* before I ever sell it to another >person. > > >>Jimmer < >> > Omaha,NE >###################################################################### >The information contained in this electronic mail transmission >(including any accompanying attachments) is intended solely for its >authorized recipient(s), and may be confidential and/or legally >privileged. If you are not an intended recipient, or responsible >for delivering some or all of this transmission to an intended >recipient, you have received this transmission in error and are >hereby notified that you are strictly prohibited from reading, copying, >printing, distributing or disclosing any of the information contained >in it. In that event, please contact us immediately by telephone >(402)346-6000 or by electronic mail at postmaster@kutakrock.com and >delete the original and all copies of this transmission (including any >attachments) without reading or saving in any manner. > >Thank you. >###################################################################### > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp >or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > --------------070604020602030908090907-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:19:52 -0700 To: From: "Daniel Heath" Subject: RE: KR> Burning and Buying Used Aircraft Message-ID: Jim, You see, if that is the approach that everyone took, we would not be in this mess. Check it out, take responsibility, know that you, the buyer, have also done due diligence. The plane that I bought had an engine from an engine builder that I could not find. According to the newsletter, you better know what kind of crankshaft you had in your engine. So, I did the same thing. I took it out and had it magna-fluxed. No problems reported. There were, however other issues with the engine, that thru a lot of research and asking questions of everyone that I considered and expert on the subject, came to light. We fixed all of those problems. I still had others, but I always believe that it is my, let me say that like this, MY, responsibility to protect MY butt. Thank GOD, and Mark, for the NET... Daniel R. Heath See our KR2 at: http://kr-builder.org See our EAA Chapter 242at: http://WWW.EAA242.ORG --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 18:07:51 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Donald Reid Subject: RE: KR> KRNet or B.S.Net Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20020808180610.00a2eb60@pop.erols.com> --=====================_33906902==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:30 PM 8/8/2002 -0500, Donald Blankenship wrote: >We don't have licensed Professional Engineers providing their insights, so >don't blame PEs. But we do have people willing to pretend to be PEs. Donald L Reid, Jr Professional Engineer Virginia License Number 0402 031775 --=====================_33906902==_.ALT-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:13:30 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> KRNet or B.S.Net Message-ID: <01ef01c23f31$364eda80$0100a8c0@TD310> > At 12:30 PM 8/8/2002 -0500, Donald Blankenship wrote: > >We don't have licensed Professional Engineers providing their insights, so > >don't blame PEs. But we do have people willing to pretend to be PEs. I guess I should chime in and mention that although I'm a practicing mechanical engineer with a real, live degree from Auburn University, I did NOT go for the gusto and get my PE license. The logic for me was simple. I'd worked my way through college for 7 years, taking a half course load in the mornings, and working every afternoon as an engineering technician to pay tuition and the bills.. My first job after college was with the company I've been with for 14 years, a company of 3000, 60% of which are engineers, only 41 of which hold PE licenses. I just couldn't see a reason to get that PE license when I knew I'd never need it here. If I need a structural engineer, I just walk around the corner and talk to one. If I need a vibration expert, I go see him. If I need a guy who's an expert in orbital mechanics specializing in spacestation microgravity, I eat lunch with him every other day. I don't think of myself as an engineering failure without a PE, having had several of my designs flown on the shuttle several times, and have designed and built some pretty cool non-space hardware over the years as well. It's just that I specialize in "design", and when it comes to matters of stress, thermal, vibration, electrical, or whatever, I go find an expert for an opinion or an analysis. I don't broadcast that I'm even an engineer on this list, because I suspect that I don't HAVE to for me to gain respect here. My "improvements" to the design and actions speak for themselves. And I sincerely attempt to keep my mouth shut if I don't KNOW exactly what I'm talking about, because I just hate to be wrong! Often, I'll go do a bunch of research on an unanswered question and feel quite qualified to answer the question when I'm done, and report back with the results. This is probably why I get a little irritated when people join KRnet and start asking dumb questions when a few minutes of research in the archives or just about anywhere else on the web would have answered it. There are the givers, and there are the takers. It's been my experience on this list that there are a couple of guys who claim to be aero engineers (and they may very well be) that I consider to be idiots. Your first clue is when they come out with some rediculous argument and sign it "aeronautical engineer" as if to say "so I know what I'm talking about". But when it comes to structural or aero matters, I always wait for Don Reid to weigh in with the facts. He's truly "eaten up" with both aviation and engineering, and has never tried to BS anybody, just presents the facts, whether you like 'em or not. This whole conversation is starting to smell like the "built it per plans" group is tired of hearing any heresy about modifications. Keep it up and the people who want and know how to improve this airplane, and then share their knowledge with others, will find some place else to gather, or just go back to building their plane, their way... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 10:11:26 +1000 To: From: "Phillip Matheson" Subject: Re: KR> KRNet or B.S.Net Message-ID: <008101c23f39$4e6f54c0$0100a8c0@LocalHost> Mark. Well said. And please , keep up the good work, and I hope that people like your self and Don and many others I do not know , do continue to help us new KR builders. many thanks to you all. Phil Matheson matheson@dodo.com.au 61 3 58833588 NSW Australia. See our VW engines at; www.vw-engines.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 20:01:02 -0400 To: "krnet" From: "Bob Farmer" Subject: Re: KR> KRNet or B.S.Net Message-ID: <001101c23f37$da498e40$de5f62d8@oemcomputer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Langford" To: > This whole conversation is starting to smell like the "built it per plans" > group is tired of hearing any heresy about modifications. Keep it up and > the people who want and know how to improve this airplane, and then share > their knowledge with others, will find some place else to gather, or just go > back to building their plane, their way... > I belong to a mailing list 'abml' from which I get a post every week or two (boring). It usually amounts to very little. The KRnet on the other hand has always got something. When you get over the need to right the wrongs, like the experts who can't spell fuselage and the build it to the plans bunch the KRnet is better than apple pie. The KRnet, the newsletter and the KR airplane must evolve or perish. The personalities make the list, whether you agree with them or not, so lets not loose that at any cost. If wrestling didn't have it's good guys & bad guys it would just be fat men falling down. So everybody get in your foxhole and take your shots but be sure and aim over the other guys head because we need them all. $00.02 OBO. Bob Farmer rfarmer@naxs.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:41:52 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> KRNet or B.S.Net Message-ID: <022201c23f3d$8e4f45b0$0100a8c0@TD310> I just realized (after walking around muttering to myself for a few hours) that what I said in my last post wasn't even necessary. The bottom line is that an engineering degree is not a guarantee as to whether or not you're an "expert" or an idiot, although I DO think it's a good sign. I know several PhD engineers who don't have sense enough to get out of the rain... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 20:01:21 -0500 To: "Mark Langford" From: "Piunti, James A." Cc: Subject: RE: KR> KRNet or B.S.Net Message-ID: <9499A53A0164444B9B9713923DE26445851244@ex0103.firm.kutakrock.com> I'm pretty sure no one wants you muttering to yourself OR considering leaving, Mark. I'm more impressed with your depth of KR knowledge and your website every time I visit it. But in spite of my earlier comments, maybe there *is* a need for a dichotomized list - or better yet, a Forum. Information that I get from you is frequently over my head - but I'm smart enough to realize that *when* I'm at a more advanced building stage, your comments may finally 'sink in' and make the difference between my producing a good or a bad flyer. As such, many of us beginners may feel a little out of our element right now, but will use this list as a repository of information when the time comes. Right now, some of us are "still learning how to spell fusilage..." :-) A Forum would give us the best of both. It would allow KR builders of all levels to congregate in the part of the Forum that is best suited for their questions and interests. This list reminds me of the "one-room schoolhouse" where everyone from Kindergarteners to HS Seniors sit semi-patiently waiting for something that's appropriate for them to come past. I can (tritely) envision sections labeled "Cadet" through "Flight Engineer" with each of us picking the place to hang out that suits our particular level - and when we feel like we need a tutorial, we can jump up a few levels to see what the boffins are talking about. All levels open to all - and most importantly, when the need for advanced information presents itself, we'll know where to go to find it.=20 I know this list has been around for a very long time - and it may seem incredibly impertinent of me, given my week-long membership status, but does anyone have any major objections to having this list evolve into something that satisfies everyone? > Jim < Omaha,NE ###################################################################### The information contained in this electronic mail transmission (including any accompanying attachments) is intended solely for its authorized recipient(s), and may be confidential and/or legally=20 privileged. If you are not an intended recipient, or responsible for delivering some or all of this transmission to an intended=20 recipient, you have received this transmission in error and are=20 hereby notified that you are strictly prohibited from reading, copying, printing, distributing or disclosing any of the information contained in it. In that event, please contact us immediately by telephone=20 (402)346-6000 or by electronic mail at postmaster@kutakrock.com and delete the original and all copies of this transmission (including any attachments) without reading or saving in any manner. =20 Thank you. ###################################################################### ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:04:03 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Glasco Subject: KR> KRNet or B.S.Net Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020808190403.00840e60@mail.ridgenet.net> Isn't that the beauty of this format, the not so experienced learn from those with more. I tolerate, willingly, the questions of the less informed and enjoy the answers that require thought. Brad Glasco California This list reminds me of the "one-room schoolhouse" where everyone from Kindergarteners to HS Seniors sit semi-patiently waiting for something that's appropriate for them to come past. >> Jim < >Omaha,NE ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 21:10:35 -0500 To: "Mark Langford" , krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Donald Blankenship" Subject: Re: KR> KRNet or B.S.Net Message-ID: <20020809021035.93435.qmail@mail.com> Mark, I was not referring to you in my e-mail, but being as you extracted a piece of what I wrote to the krnet but killed the actual message, please let it go through in it's entirity below. And before signing off here, I'll tell you what I was actually referring to. Excellent, knowledgable people are sending out crap without the sort of photos and first-hand building knowledge you put out. They're commenting on every little thing and making massive mistakes, because they want us to build it their way but aren't doing it or proving it themselves. They don't even present references. Don Reid is most likely the most knowledgable person on our net, but he told people to build "fat" trailing edges when he meant "flat" TEs (he typed it wrong twice). I asked him about it and he apologized but printed no correction. Someone builds a properly engineered squared off TE and makes sure nobody ever paints the corners it and you gotta winner. If someone makes "fat" trailing edges they'll increase their stall speed which Don admits is undesirable (quite). We appreciate you, we love Don Reid, and others. No one on the net works harder than you, and we could only dream that all the hard work others were doing would come with the same proof of builder knowledge you present. Not flawed personal observations and opinions. Now, here is my message that was killed earlier: What we have is a total B.S net. We have people who feel required to put their endorsements on every weanie idea some innocent enthusiast asks about. Rarely lately does anyone site a legitimate source of where they got their knowledge on a topic. As long as they throw in a lot of words they and their readers don't understand, they feel they've done their homework. We don't have licensed Professional Engineers providing their insights, so don't blame PEs. But we do have people willing to pretend to be PEs. One person last month went so far as to say he isn't licensed to practice, but he would be perfectly happy to provide another builder with an engineering analysis if the builder would send him $2000! If we have pictures of our work, we should share them with others as many do. If we have references or legitimate sources of information, we should share them with others so they can make determinations about the validity of the info themselves to their own level of understanding. Without sharing first-hand building and flying info and valid sources, we are all doomed to criticize and laugh at each other for our often outlandish speculations. --Don Blankenship ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Langford" Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:13:30 -0500 To: Subject: Re: KR> KRNet or B.S.Net > > At 12:30 PM 8/8/2002 -0500, Donald Blankenship wrote: > > >We don't have licensed Professional Engineers providing their insights, > so > > >don't blame PEs. But we do have people willing to pretend to be PEs. > > I guess I should chime in and mention that although I'm a practicing > mechanical engineer with a real, live degree from Auburn University, I did > NOT go for the gusto and get my PE license. The logic for me was simple. > I'd worked my way through college for 7 years, taking a half course load in > the mornings, and working every afternoon as an engineering technician to > pay tuition and the bills.. My first job after college was with the company > I've been with for 14 years, a company of 3000, 60% of which are engineers, > only 41 of which hold PE licenses. I just couldn't see a reason to get that > PE license when I knew I'd never need it here. If I need a structural > engineer, I just walk around the corner and talk to one. If I need a > vibration expert, I go see him. If I need a guy who's an expert in orbital > mechanics specializing in spacestation microgravity, I eat lunch with him > every other day. > > I don't think of myself as an engineering failure without a PE, having had > several of my designs flown on the shuttle several times, and have designed > and built some pretty cool non-space hardware over the years as well. It's > just that I specialize in "design", and when it comes to matters of stress, > thermal, vibration, electrical, or whatever, I go find an expert for an > opinion or an analysis. > > I don't broadcast that I'm even an engineer on this list, because I suspect > that I don't HAVE to for me to gain respect here. My "improvements" to the > design and actions speak for themselves. And I sincerely attempt to keep my > mouth shut if I don't KNOW exactly what I'm talking about, because I just > hate to be wrong! Often, I'll go do a bunch of research on an unanswered > question and feel quite qualified to answer the question when I'm done, and > report back with the results. This is probably why I get a little irritated > when people join KRnet and start asking dumb questions when a few minutes > of research in the archives or just about anywhere else on the web would > have answered it. There are the givers, and there are the takers. > > It's been my experience on this list that there are a couple of guys who > claim to be aero engineers (and they may very well be) that I consider to be > idiots. Your first clue is when they come out with some rediculous argument > and sign it "aeronautical engineer" as if to say "so I know what I'm talking > about". But when it comes to structural or aero matters, I always wait for > Don Reid to weigh in with the facts. He's truly "eaten up" with both > aviation and engineering, and has never tried to BS anybody, just presents > the facts, whether you like 'em or not. > > This whole conversation is starting to smell like the "built it per plans" > group is tired of hearing any heresy about modifications. Keep it up and > the people who want and know how to improve this airplane, and then share > their knowledge with others, will find some place else to gather, or just go > back to building their plane, their way... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:14:39 -0700 To: "krnet" From: "NORM-RUTH" Subject: Horiz Stab Incidence Message-ID: <008901c23f42$23404080$eedfd73f@pavilion> ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C23F07.75EECB20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark Langford is making his stab adjustable. However, I believe some = planes are built with the stabilizer manually adjustable from the = cockpit, ie the Baby Great Lakes, perhaps some Pitts and others. A & S = sold this assembly already made up at one time. Sounds like a great idea. Can anyone provide some information on this = arrangement? Norm norm-ruth@prodigy.net=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C23F07.75EECB20-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 15:50:01 -0700 (PDT) To: KRNET@MAILINGLISTS.ORG From: Rick Wilson Subject: forming windshields Message-ID: <20020808225001.50344.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, would it not be possible to form a windshield around a form or to the shape of a frame by fastening the part in the center so it will be stationary, Then, using flat nylon straps( the 4inch wide straps used for holding loads on a truck)apply slight pressure to the windshield by wrapping the strap around the front of the lexan or plexiglass. Then you could use a heat gun held far enough from the surface so as not to distort it or get it too hot, and pull the straps tighter as you heat the windshield. You would only need to heat the areas where the bends would be, then when it is pulled into shape, hold it tight to the frame with the straps or put screws around the edges to hold it there until it cools. It should hold it's shape when cool. To keep the strap from making a low place in the windshield where it is against it, you could place some very thin plywood or something else between the strap and the windshield and heat it from the back side. I haven't tried this with windshields but I have pulled sheet metal around curved surfaces with the straps by using them as described above. The only difference would be the heating. I've thought about trying this to see if it would work. The straps pulled sheet metal around curved surfaces and the metal looked great. Just thinking.....Rick Wilson. rwdw2002@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:29:09 -0500 To: From: "Deems Herring" Subject: Re: KR> forming windshields Message-ID: <015d01c23f33$6562c910$bd02a8c0@deems> I see 2 issues here. First, in order to get a good bend the entire thickness of the material should be at bending temp. this would tend to imprint the texture of what you are bending it with into the surface. Second Lexan is a very difficult material to bend with heat due to its moisture content. If you have experience bending Lexan fine otherwise you need to research it carfully before attempting it. My personal prefference is to use lexan for simple curves only, in that instance it is very flexible and you can just bend it, attach it to the frame and your done. For plexiglass you would probably have better luck making a male mold of the shape and heating it from the center out allowing it to sag into shape on its own if you are not going to blow or vacuum form it. Remember that plexiglass shrinks in dimension and gets thicker when heated for forming. Suppliers can give you the shrink percentage for the material. Rick Wilson wrote: > Hi, would it not be possible to form a windshield > around a form or to the shape of a frame by fastening > the part in the center so it will be stationary, Then, > using flat nylon straps.....Rick Wilson. > rwdw2002@yahoo.com > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs > http://www.hotjobs.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:54:32 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Subject: kr2 stab. incidence Message-Id: <20020808225432.MWMK5343.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@localhost> Hi Jim, thanks so much for answering my post on kr-net. I am using the raf48 airfoil. Have already installed both wing and stab. spars. Actually have completed wings and tail section through primer fill. I would like to check the incidence between the two but am unsure how to do that at this point.Could you make any suggestion?....Thanks Gene ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 09:31:22 +1000 To: "krnet listing" From: "Phillip Matheson" Subject: Re: KR> WAF's / Comments Please. Message-ID: <002601c23f33$b549f480$0100a8c0@LocalHost> Donald. Thank you very much. It is nice to hear some info with good knowledge and material to back it up. Kindest regards Phil Matheson matheson@dodo.com.au 61 3 58833588 NSW Australia. See our VW engines at; www.vw-engines.com .org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 20:02:54 -0400 To: Dana Overall From: "Bruce S. Campbell" CC: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Attention KR Builders/lawers Message-ID: <3D5306AE.9B2DEA19@gte.net> Dana Overall wrote: > Now, after I just said the issue is not black and white........in the real > world the answer would be NOPE, there's no way you can preclude yourself > from liability exposure in the subsequent sale of a homebuilt airplane. Can > you say firewood?? Dana, Do RV's burn? ;o) Bruce S. Campbell Tampa de Florida ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 20:43:18 -0400 To: "Bruce S. Campbell" From: Brian Kraut CC: Dana Overall , krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Attention KR Builders/lawers Message-ID: <3D531026.5020404@earthlink.net> --------------030004040300020404080903 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anything with 50 gallons of avgas in it burns! Bruce S. Campbell wrote: >Dana Overall wrote: > >>Now, after I just said the issue is not black and white........in the real >>world the answer would be NOPE, there's no way you can preclude yourself >>from liability exposure in the subsequent sale of a homebuilt airplane. Can >>you say firewood?? >> > >Dana, > >Do RV's burn? ;o) > >Bruce S. Campbell >Tampa de Florida > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp >or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > --------------030004040300020404080903-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 20:42:10 -0700 To: From: "Daniel Heath" Subject: Buying Used Home built Aircraft Message-ID: I understand that Rutan finally got sick and tired of it and quit selling the plans. I sold my KR, and was very careful to not only pick out the right person to sell it to, but to be sure that I disclosed everything that I knew about the plane. No matter what, you are still not safe because we live in a SICK society that believes that everything is someone else's fault. Daniel R. Heath See our KR2 at: http://kr-builder.org See our EAA Chapter 242at: http://WWW.EAA242.ORG --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 20:51:35 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Brian Kraut Subject: Re: KR> Buying Used Home built Aircraft Message-ID: <3D531217.3010707@earthlink.net> There are two ways about this. You either buy a whole bunch of insurance and almost guarantee that you get sued, or you don't worry about it because no lawyer would waste his time on you without your million dollar insurance policy. This, of course, assumes that you are not rich. If you were you would build a Lancair IV P. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:09:52 -0700 (PDT) To: KRNET@MAILINGLISTS.ORG From: Rick Wilson Subject: buying used homebuilt aircraft Message-ID: <20020809010952.16374.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> If I buy a homebuilt aircraft and something happens to me, I would not bring up a suit against anyone and my family knows how I feel about it.I may be the only one who thinks this way anymore, but I think if I buy a homebuilt aircraft from someone, I know that it is homebuilt before I buy it and should know that everything may not be perfect. I know there are risks involved from the start, and if I'm not willing to accept the risks I don't need to be flying a homebuilt in the first place. A certified aircraft (factory built) has supposedly been built by knowledgeable, trained professionals from materials that are supposed to be suited to aircraft, so that would be another matter altogether. On the other hand homebuilts are just that-built at home by amateurs and I know this so I'll accept responsibility for whatever happens. It's my job to see that everything is right before flying an amateur-built aircraft. Thanks, Rick Wilson. rwdw2002@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:16:03 -0700 To: From: "Robert X. Cringely" Subject: Re: KR> Buying Used Home built Aircraft Message-Id: I have built two Glasairs (#102 and #123 -- both VERY old). The first plane I built literally beside the prototype before most of the instructions were written. As a result, I made a number of mistakes, not all of which were my doing, but the result was I had the slowest Glasair ever built. Rather than try to fix the errors, I built a second Glasair (kits were $6,000 back then) and tried to sell the slow one. Well nobody wanted it and I ended up having to sell my pride-and-joy 203 KTAS Glasair and keep the older 170 KTAS Glasair, which I have since spent another 15 years improving. The point of this story is you can choose the best pilot in the world to sell your homebuilt to, but what if he then resells it? That's what happened to me. Fourteen years and more than 2000 hours after I sold it, #123 threw a propeller blade while flying over the Nevada desert. The engine stayed with the plane because I had followed Formula One (not Glasair) practice and cabled it to the mount. But the plane hit a rut during the emergency landing, ripping the main gear out of the fuselage and that was it. No injuries, but a total write-off. The pilot was lucky and so am I -- so far. Was I negligent in any way? I don't think so. I hope not. I bought the prop yellow tagged from Marv Golden and it had been later overhauled twice by U.S. Propeller. Was its failure my fault? I don't think so. I hope not. Was it Marv's? I don't think so. I hope not. But until the statute of limitations expires, I'll keep holding my breath. That was the first and last homebuilt I ever sold, which explains the four planes in my hangar. Bob At 8:42 PM -0700 8/8/02, Daniel Heath wrote: >I understand that Rutan finally got sick and tired of it and quit selling >the plans. > >I sold my KR, and was very careful to not only pick out the right person to >sell it to, but to be sure that I disclosed everything that I knew about the >plane. No matter what, you are still not safe because we live in a SICK >society that believes that everything is someone else's fault. > >Daniel R. Heath > >See our KR2 at: http://kr-builder.org > >See our EAA Chapter 242at: http://WWW.EAA242.ORG > > > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp >or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files -- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 17:59:14 -0700 To: From: "Buddy & Cheryl" Subject: Flox Message-ID: <00ac01c23f3f$fb283140$1e02a8c0@WorkGroup> ------=_NextPart_000_00A9_01C23F05.4E53DB20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have about a gallon bag of cotton flox and another gallon bag of glass = bubbles that have been sitting around on the shelf for about ten years. = The question is; is it safe to use or should I throw them out and buy = new? They look just fine as I kept them in a sealable gallon freezer = bag. The fiberglass that came with my kit is about the same age, but I = stored it in my bedroom closet in it's original paper wrapping. I'm = guessing the concern would be moisture. Bud Midkiff Lynnwood, WA email: c.midkiff@verizon.net =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00A9_01C23F05.4E53DB20-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:02:44 -0700 To: From: "Daniel Heath" Subject: RE: KR> Flox Message-ID: I would not be at all concerned about any of that. If it were mine, I would use it. Daniel R. Heath See our KR2 at: http://kr-builder.org See our EAA Chapter 242at: http://WWW.EAA242.ORG --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:29:38 -0700 To: "Krnet@Mailinglists.Org" From: "Daniel Heath" Subject: I love the KR NET Message-ID: Jim, I also love that word "boffins".. I can only assume what it means. It is really cool. I also love the NET and would prefer that it stay like it is. I really would like to see people use good common sense when replying to "ALL", or maybe you should reply to the person who is really interested in the answer. I know that everyone knows the difference. I hope to see you all at the Gathering. I know this is going to be the GATHERING of ALL time. Thirty years and still counting. Daniel R. Heath See our KR2 at: http://kr-builder.org See our EAA Chapter 242at: http://WWW.EAA242.ORG --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 20:34:02 -0400 To: "Krnet@Mailinglists.Org" From: "Ronald Freiberger" Subject: RE: KR> I love the KR NET Message-ID: Daniel Said ..... I also love the NET and would prefer that it stay like it is. I really would like to see people use good common sense when replying to "ALL", or maybe you should reply to the person who is really interested in the answer. Give yourself an ATTABOY Daniel; well done. Ron Freiberger...I'm with Daniel ... Keep on keepin' on Mark mailto:ron.martha@mindspring.com -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Heath [mailto:danrh@att.net] Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 12:30 AM To: Krnet@Mailinglists.Org Subject: KR> I love the KR NET Jim, I also love that word "boffins".. I can only assume what it means. It is really cool. I also love the NET and would prefer that it stay like it is. I really would like to see people use good common sense when replying to "ALL", or maybe you should reply to the person who is really interested in the answer. I know that everyone knows the difference. I hope to see you all at the Gathering. I know this is going to be the GATHERING of ALL time. Thirty years and still counting. Daniel R. Heath See our KR2 at: http://kr-builder.org See our EAA Chapter 242at: http://WWW.EAA242.ORG --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 20:54:16 -0500 To: From: "Thomas C Adams" Subject: boffin Message-ID: <007f01c23f47$aca94ec0$71cdacd1@tomadams> ------=_NextPart_000_007C_01C23F1D.C21EE000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable a boffin is british slang for a scientist engaged in research. i might be one... tom ------=_NextPart_000_007C_01C23F1D.C21EE000-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 01:55:58 +0000 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Allan D Olcott" Subject: KR-2S Message-ID: Gentleman: I joined this list when I found out it was about the KR2, since then I have found information on it that has been of great help to me. I have watched the war of personalities come and go but you know what I still am going to have an inexpensive aircraft with pretty good speed that will be fun to fly and not cost an arm and a leg to maintain. Now all I have to do is get off my lazy butt and finish it. Thank all of You for your contributions keep them coming I need all the help that I can get. Allan D. Olcott Fresno CA Smile guys a day spent building is better than a day working. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 22:16:11 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Dana Overall" Subject: A few thoughts then back to KR. Message-ID: I'm going to have to chim in here with a me too. Although I do remember Mark and I getting caught in the rain a couple time at SNF:-) Wonder what that means............... The KRNet got started lots and lots (how's that for grammer) of years ago and was primarily a place where people could get together and "figure" the plans out and in doing so, come up with better ideas based on more current technology. It does seem like lately it is a build it to plans (whatever that is) group. You guys really missed the boat during the nets early years. I truly believe the KR would be dead by now if it were not for the KRNet. Don, I'm not picking on you but this blunt trailing edge thread would have been a very nice give and take until the general concencous of the group was a very acceptable application, or not, if deemed desirable. It was a very fluid and interesting group and would have contained a lot of "what do you think", "I'll buy that". Down with egos, we used to be a great beer drinking bunch. I'd just about have to have a gun check before getting together sometimes now. Steady as we go gang, it's just going through a little morf right now. Dana Overall Richmond, KY 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host http://rvflying.tripod.com >From: "Mark Langford" >Reply-To: "Mark Langford" >To: >Subject: Re: KR> KRNet or B.S.Net >Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:41:52 -0500 > >I just realized (after walking around muttering to myself for a few hours) >that what I said in my last post wasn't even necessary. The bottom line is >that an engineering degree is not a guarantee as to whether or not you're >an >"expert" or an idiot, although I DO think it's a good sign. I know several >PhD engineers who don't have sense enough to get out of the rain... > >Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama >mailto:langford@hiwaay.net >see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp >or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > Dana Overall Richmond, KY http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************