From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 17 Sep 2002 00:45:12 -0000 Issue 518 Date: Monday, September 16, 2002 5:46 PM krnet Digest 17 Sep 2002 00:45:12 -0000 Issue 518 Topics (messages 12553 through 12580): Senior Guys 12553 by: cartera Age 12554 by: JIM VANCE 12555 by: Ron Thomas 12559 by: Robert Stone Diehl gear fairing/fillets 12556 by: larry flesner This Age Thing 12557 by: Mark Jones Main Gear Fairings 12558 by: John and Janet Martindale Finish with the Age topic 12560 by: c johnson 12561 by: Daniel Heath Glass 12562 by: Leigh Plymale 12563 by: Ron Thomas 12564 by: Mark Langford 12565 by: Mark Langford 12570 by: Robert X. Cringely 12572 by: Steve 12575 by: Ross Youngblood 12577 by: Robert X. Cringely glass suppliers 12566 by: rfarmer Red Oak 12567 by: Patrick Driscoll 12569 by: Patrick Driscoll 12574 by: David & Jo Ann Lininger glass /kevlar/ carbon 12568 by: jim . synergy design 12573 by: Dana Overall Re: EAA Fly In at Petersburg ( PTB ) 12571 by: Donald Reid Weeping Wings 12576 by: Ross Youngblood Test 12578 by: asavant.notes.state.ne.us copperstate 12579 by: Michael Clark Carbon/kevlar 12580 by: Leigh Plymale Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 19:21:40 -0600 To: KRNet From: cartera Subject: Senior Guys Message-ID: <3D83E0A4.8082F805@cuug.ab.ca> Hello Gang, It is an honor to see so many senior characters on this list. So to keep ones body and mind active, flying, building is the way to do it even if one does not get to fly his own creation, just building it can be a real feeling of accomplishment. Myself, I am 68 years young and would still be flying my little sweetheart if I did not suffer with ME/CFS for the last 10 years where vertigo is a great part of this malady. You notice I called the seniors, characters and for sure we all are because what sane man would still want to do like a bird at this age. Good Health, and much success whatever your doing, GENTLEMEN. Take Care! -- Adrian VE6AFY Calgary, Alberta Mailto:cartera@cuug.ab.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 20:37:47 -0500 To: "kr net" From: "JIM VANCE" Subject: Age Message-ID: <002c01c25c58$80223c80$35000a0a@oemcomputer> ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C25C2E.9648CE40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since I am more than 2/3rds of a century old, I want to give my two = cents worth. Age is a matter of attitude. I've known people that were = old after 25 birthdays. I have a friend that I think of as being 30, = even though she's had 89 birthdays. If you think young, you will stay = young. I was told to pick an age you really like and stick with it. I chose = 13, and I'm always getting in trouble!! Jim Vance ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C25C2E.9648CE40-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 21:33:02 -0400 To: JIM VANCE From: Ron Thomas CC: kr net Subject: Re: KR> Age Message-ID: <3D83E34E.F4E84112@mindspring.com> Like the man who ask a fellow, Lived here all your life? He answered "NOT YET" I AGREE (AGE IS 90% ATTITUDE AND THE OTHER 10% WE HAVE NO CONTROL OF. JIM VANCE wrote: > > Since I am more than 2/3rds of a century old, I want to give my two cents worth. Age is a matter of attitude. I've known people that were old after 25 birthdays. I have a friend that I think of as being 30, even though she's had 89 birthdays. If you think young, you will stay young. > > I was told to pick an age you really like and stick with it. I chose 13, and I'm always getting in trouble!! > > Jim Vance ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 06:48:49 -0500 To: "JIM VANCE" , "kr net" From: "Robert Stone" Subject: Re: KR> Age Message-ID: <001d01c25cad$dbaad9e0$05d81a18@hot.rr.com> Netters: This one gets my endorsement. Especially the part about staying young because you think young. Jim could not be more right. ----- Original Message ----- From: "JIM VANCE" To: "kr net" Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 8:37 PM Subject: KR> Age Since I am more than 2/3rds of a century old, I want to give my two cents worth. Age is a matter of attitude. I've known people that were old after 25 birthdays. I have a friend that I think of as being 30, even though she's had 89 birthdays. If you think young, you will stay young. I was told to pick an age you really like and stick with it. I chose 13, and I'm always getting in trouble!! Jim Vance ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 20:47:08 -0500 To: "Group KR NET" From: larry flesner Subject: Diehl gear fairing/fillets Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020914204708.00992100@mail.midwest.net> Netters, I came to some of the same conclusions and went a similar direction as Mark. After spending some money on upper gear leg fairings that didn't work I decided to only fair the outside 45 degree angle and that the 135 inside angle needed nothing. However, my project is very near finished and setting on the gear. Also, I had already faired the gear leg. I glued a 3/4 inch (?) piece of foam to the trail edge , marked a centerline, and sanded it to a point. The front side has a piece of hollow foam with the brake line running through it and rounded on the front edge. To complicate matters, I have my landing lights in cutouts in the wing lead edge directly in front of the gear legs. (I opened the wing to get to the mounts and closed it back by making landing light compartments.) So, what I did was glue some foam into the angle between the wing and the gear leg. I taped the gear leg so the glass would not stick. I placed a piece of sand paper around a tube of caulk and sanded as much of the foam out as the tube would reach, starting at the front side of leg and around to the rear of the leg. Presto, I have the 45 degree angle faired to the same diameter as the tube. Pick whatever size tube you want the finished fairing to be to use as a sanding block. Different sizes of PCV pipe for example would work. Haven't got fairing glassed yet as I haven't hauled it back home from the airport where it was on display at last weekend's airshow. I hope to do a fuel leak test, calibrate my fuel sender units, do a little "play" taxi on the ramp this week then bring it home to finish priming. Fairing tip: when building fairings, have the two surfaces that you are fairing between finished through at least one layer of glass. You can then sand the foam for the fairing without screwing up your other surfaces. Don't even try to sand a fairing between two surfaces that are still in the foam stage. Been there, done that! Hope to get Mark L. to do a photo shot of the project on the way to the Gathering this week. Larry Flesner Carterville, Illinois, USA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 21:01:58 -0500 To: "KR-Net" From: "Mark Jones" Subject: This Age Thing Message-ID: <004601c25c5b$e0207cc0$c5991f41@wi.rr.com> ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C25C31.F6EEE740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You guys had better enjoy and love life to it's fullest because you = never know when Heaven will come knocking on your door. I have lost both = a Father (52) and a Brother (53) to massive heart attacks. When I was a = teenager, I thought 50+ was ancient. Now that I am 47, I know much = better. I still feel like a teenager at heart and have five children = aged 26, 23, 5, 3 and 5 weeks. My second wife is 11 years younger than I = and believe me, you have to stay young to keep up with her and the kids. = On top of that, I have an airplane in my garage which keeps me up late = at nights. I average about 5 to 6 hours of sleep a day and have no = intentions of slowing down. I just pray when I reach 90 (and I intend = to), that me and my KR will still be flying together. I admire all of = you older gents who are building and flying and would like to thank all = of you for paving the way for the rest of us who are following your = lead. God, please lead me to Red Oak!!!!!!!! Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA=20 E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at =20 http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C25C31.F6EEE740-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 18:51:06 +1000 To: "KRnet" From: "John and Janet Martindale" Subject: Main Gear Fairings Message-ID: <000c01c25c95$26015820$dcde12d2@m1g0x7> ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C25CE8.D942D8C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks Don't glass your fairings direct to the wing skins and to the leg. The = leg flexing will strain ya skins. Leave a gap or overlap or something = between the upper and lower portions of the fairing. Those legs can move = a substantial amount in a hard landing. John and Janet Martindale 29 Jane Circuit TOORMINA NSW 2452 AUSTRALIA ph: 61 2 66584767 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C25CE8.D942D8C0-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 22:20:11 +1000 (EST) To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: =?iso-8859-1?q?c=20johnson?= Subject: Finish with the Age topic Message-ID: <20020915122011.25762.qmail@web12508.mail.yahoo.com> --0-288699616-1032092411=:25676 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit When is the editor going to call this topic closed? Clive Johnson email: johnprop@yahoo.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger for SMS- Always be connected to your Messenger Friends --0-288699616-1032092411=:25676-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 08:36:27 -0700 To: From: "Daniel Heath" Subject: RE: KR> Finish with the Age topic Message-ID: This topic is never closed. See you in Red Oak. Daniel R. Heath See our KR2 at: http://kr-builder.org See our EAA Chapter 242at: http://WWW.EAA242.ORG --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 8/2/2002 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 09:09:49 -0400 To: From: "Leigh Plymale" Subject: Glass Message-ID: <004f01c25cb9$2c971840$1b853518@chvlva.adelphia.net> ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C25C97.A4CCD6A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was researching the net about fiberglass carbon fiber and kevlar. As = far as can tell kevlar and carbon fiber have very close to the same = strength and weight. with kevlar being 3 times glass price and carbon = fiber at about 6 times the price. Has any one tried to use kevlar? It = seams to me that substantial weight can be saved using kevlar. The one = sticky problem I see is how to trim the kevlar. I am sure that cutting = the fabric is difficult as their are special scissors sold for the job. = What I really want to know is if the edges can be trimmed using a razor = blade as normal? Also does kevlar work similarly to glass?=20 Leigh Plymale flyboy232@adelphia.net ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C25C97.A4CCD6A0-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 10:01:12 -0400 To: KRNET@MAILINGLISTS.ORG From: Ron Thomas Subject: Re: KR> Glass Message-ID: <3D8492A8.AB4025AE@mindspring.com> MATERIAL SUPPLIER: WWW.FIBREGLAST.COM PRICES SEEM HIGH BUT LOTS TO CHOOSE FROM. THIS PLACE IS IN BROOKVILLE, OHIO Anyone finding ood cost efective suppliers, post and let others know about them. I haven't bought from the one above, just found it on the net. Leigh Plymale wrote: > > I was researching the net about fiberglass carbon fiber and kevlar. As far as can tell kevlar and carbon fiber have very close to the same strength and weight. with kevlar being 3 times glass price and carbon fiber at about 6 times the price. Has any one tried to use kevlar? It seams to me that substantial weight can be saved using kevlar. The one sticky problem I see is how to trim the kevlar. I am sure that cutting the fabric is difficult as their are special scissors sold for the job. What I really want to know is if the edges can be trimmed using a razor blade as normal? Also does kevlar work similarly to glass? > > Leigh Plymale > flyboy232@adelphia.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 09:12:02 -0500 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Glass Message-ID: <003001c25cc1$e3727d90$0100a8c0@TD310> Leigh Plymale wrote: >>I was researching the net about fiberglass carbon fiber and kevlar. As far as can tell kevlar and carbon fiber have very close to the same strength and weight. with kevlar being 3 times glass price and carbon fiber at about 6 times the price. Has any one tried to use kevlar? It seams to me that substantial weight can be saved using kevlar. The one sticky problem I see is how to trim the kevlar. I am sure that cutting the fabric is difficult as their are special scissors sold for the job. What I really want to know is if the edges can be trimmed using a razor blade as normal? Also does kevlar work similarly to glass? << --------------------- Leigh, below are some comments that I've written so many times I finally saved it to a text file for instant regurgitation. Some of it doesn't apply to your question, but it doesn't hurt to mention it again. On a KR2, the opportunities to save weight using carbon fiber aren't all that great, since most of the plane is covered with one layer of whatever cloth you use. What you CAN get is much stronger parts. The weight savings will be in places where you use several layers, like the canopy frame. I'd also put it on ailerons and elevators for flutter resistance. While I can't lay my hands on any tables of comparative strengths at the moment (I could, but I'm really not in the mood to do any more homework at the moment), from memory I'll say that carbon fiber does fail quickly, but much further up the stress/strain curve than the point at which fiberglass fails, so it is in fact stronger than glass. But you're still talking about force levels like you'd experience in a crash here. The point of using carbon fiber is reduced weight for the same strength as glass, or improved strength with the same weight. Last time I looked, 282 carbon fiber has a strength to weight ratio about 3-5 times higher than regular 7533 "KR" glass, but then it also costs 6 times as much. And let the record show that I'm not saying the KR2S even needs ANY carbon fiber, but it's a great way to make things stronger and stiffer while saving weight in the process. Also, from "Composite Aircraft Design" by Hollman: 1) "Although fiberglass is the least expensive material, graphite fibers are the most promising for aircraft structures because of their low weight, high strength, and high stiffness as shown in Figure 3. The Starship and Voyager are completely built out of graphite and honeycomb and we can expect to see more and more complete aircraft built of this material." 2) "...this is especially true for Kevlar, which has a tensile strength of 60,000 psi and a compressive strength of 23,000 psi. Because of this low compressive strength, Kevlar is almost solely used for fairings, wheel pants, engine cowls, and other fairings in aircraft structures." 3) "However, because of Kevlar's low crompression strength, Kevlar has found limited structural application in aircraft primary structures. Kevlar is difficult to work with and special tools are needed. The above quotes are not where I formed my opinion about Carbon Fiber vs Kevlar, just the first ones I came across to support my argument. Engineering data from many different sources is where I formed my "opinion". You guys are welcome to carry on this debate, but I really need to get back to the basement... ----------------------- Personally, there's no amount of benefits of Kevlar that could possibly offset the frustration of trying to work with it. That one little "tracer" thread on carbon fiber rolls has driven me almost to insanity (well, maybe ALL the way, many would argue). That thread invariably ends up on the overlapping joints where there's a material overlap (like wings). Once you sand that little thread, all the fibers stick up, and refuse to go away. With CF or glass they just sand right off. With Kevlar, you're gonna have to sand that thread entirely away, or have a really ugly joint that looks like a line of fuzz. I eventually buried it under Aeropoxy Lite, but in the future, I'll always ensure that the overlap is ON TOP of that thread, rather than below it. I know an engineer who built a Defiant. He built the first cowling out of Kevlar, and the second out of carbon fiber. He swore he'd never touch Kevlar again. This guy now works on Rutan's RotoRocket project, so he's not an idiot. But basically, I HATE Kevlar. Not too long ago a KR builder asked me what I thought about it, and I trotted out the stuff above. He said "but the stuff was free, so I'm going to use it". I told him he'd regret it, and he tried it anyway. I think he'd be quick to tell you that he wishes he hadn't wasted his time with it... Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 09:18:48 -0500 To: "KRnet" From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Glass Message-ID: <003401c25cc2$d5083190$0100a8c0@TD310> The cheapest regular supplier that I've found for carbon fiber is Advanced Composite Materials at: http://www.a-c-m.com/ , which has 5.85 ounce 48" wide carbon fiber ($17 per yard). The only way I'd take Kevlar is if you paid me to haul it away. Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 11:02:34 -0700 To: From: "Robert X. Cringely" Subject: Re: KR> Glass Message-Id: Kevlar is, quite simply, a pain in the ass to work with. DON'T DO IT. One problem with Kevlar that typically isn't mentioned is its propensity to pick up moisture. This is what led the U.S. Air Force -- once a big user of Kevlar for fairings and radomes -- to ban it from further use and to replace every bit of Kevlar in the fleet. Now all those fairings and radomes are S-glass. If you really demand higher performance than e-glass, consider s-glass. Its specs are only about 15 percent better than e-glass, but experience in the field shows it to be substantially tougher. Bob At 9:09 AM -0400 9/15/02, Leigh Plymale wrote: >I was researching the net about fiberglass carbon fiber and kevlar. >As far as can tell kevlar and carbon fiber have very close to the >same strength and weight. with kevlar being 3 times glass price and >carbon fiber at about 6 times the price. Has any one tried to use >kevlar? It seams to me that substantial weight can be saved using >kevlar. The one sticky problem I see is how to trim the kevlar. I am >sure that cutting the fabric is difficult as their are special >scissors sold for the job. What I really want to know is if the >edges can be trimmed using a razor blade as normal? Also does kevlar >work similarly to glass? > >Leigh Plymale >flyboy232@adelphia.net -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 18:19:11 -0500 To: From: "Steve" Subject: Re: KR> Glass Message-ID: <012001c25d0e$4cf2c8a0$291e6344@om.cox.net> Original message.... >"I was researching the net about fiberglass carbon fiber and kevlar. As far as can tell >kevlar and carbon fiber have very close to the same strength and weight. with kevlar >being 3 times glass price and carbon fiber at about 6 times the price. Has any one tried to >use kevlar? It " I read this message and agree 99% Kelvar is out of the question if you want to keep it simple(less time building, more time flying) Carbon fiber is great at saving weight but trying to find 2 oz CF is tough. Also you would have a very thin and brittle shell although it would equel the strength of the original design. If you are using CF to make it stronger than the original design, how strong do you need it? KR cloth will take the loading without a problem. If you plan on impacting into hard surfaces use alot of CF. I have gone another route, I am using 6oz Biaxial cloth in a 50 in width e glass. Biaxial cloth is about 20% stronger than BID, uses about 20% less epoxy, easier to mold to contours. And with the 50 inch width, no overlaping seams on the wings or turtle deck This will let me have a slitly stonger plane and save a little weight. My personal rule of thumb, Build it as strong as it needs to be plus a little extra for insurence, any more than that is overkill and extra weight or extra work. See ya in Red Oak You can find this cloth at www.raka.com/fibergla.htm Keep it simple, keep it light, fly more hours Steve Lemke Omaha, NE ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 21:03:20 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org, "Robert X. Cringely" From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Re: KR> Glass Message-Id: This negative aspect of Kevlar was mentioned before. Consider this... if Kevelar is bad with moisture, why do they make Kayaks out of it? I think the problem the Air Force has is that any moisture wicked into the structure freezes at 40,000 feet, this constant expansion and contraction causes delamination. I for one, don't plan to be flying at Flight Level 40 anytime soon in my KR, so I think my Kevlar aft deck, gear leg fairings, and forward deck will do OK. I will agree that it is a pain in the ass to work with... difficult to cut. But it wets out fine with Aeropoxy. -- Ross 9/15/2002 11:02:34 AM, "Robert X. Cringely" wrote: >Kevlar is, quite simply, a pain in the ass to work with. DON'T DO >IT. One problem with Kevlar that typically isn't mentioned is its >propensity to pick up moisture. This is what led the U.S. Air Force >-- once a big user of Kevlar for fairings and radomes -- to ban it >from further use and to replace every bit of Kevlar in the fleet. >Now all those fairings and radomes are S-glass. > >If you really demand higher performance than e-glass, consider >s-glass. Its specs are only about 15 percent better than e-glass, >but experience in the field shows it to be substantially tougher. > > >Bob > > > > >At 9:09 AM -0400 9/15/02, Leigh Plymale wrote: >>I was researching the net about fiberglass carbon fiber and kevlar. >>As far as can tell kevlar and carbon fiber have very close to the >>same strength and weight. with kevlar being 3 times glass price and >>carbon fiber at about 6 times the price. Has any one tried to use >>kevlar? It seams to me that substantial weight can be saved using >>kevlar. The one sticky problem I see is how to trim the kevlar. I am >>sure that cutting the fabric is difficult as their are special >>scissors sold for the job. What I really want to know is if the >>edges can be trimmed using a razor blade as normal? Also does kevlar >>work similarly to glass? >> >>Leigh Plymale >>flyboy232@adelphia.net > > >-- > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp >or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > Ross Youngblood http://N541RY.com mailto:rossy65@attbi.com (Home) mailto:ross_youngblood@credence.com (Work) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 21:33:13 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Robert X. Cringely" Subject: Re: KR> Glass Message-Id: The problem was precisely as you say -- wicking in moisture through tiny cracks then having that moisture freeze and expand, making the cracks worse, etc. It happened in KC-135 radomes and in the kevlar turtledeck of my KR-1 during a winter spent in a leaky unheated hangar at the Alpine County Airport in Markleeville, CA (elevation 5687 feet). Bob PS -- Many years ago I made some kayaks for the U.S. Whitewater Kayaking team that was headed to a World Championship in what was then Yugoslavia. A friend of mine was on the team. I was appalled at the quality of kayak construction. The boats used far too much resin and they were saving weight by using kevlar instead of glass. I made some s-glass boats from the same molds but vacuum-bagged them and used a lower viscosity resin. The result was my boats were a third lighter than the kevlar boats and tougher, too. Why then are competition kayaks still made of kevlar? Because Dupont provides the cloth for free along with a lot of money to support the team, that's why. At least I can take a little solace in having taught them to vacuum bag, a skill previously unknown in the kayaking world. At 9:03 PM -0700 9/15/02, Ross Youngblood wrote: >This negative aspect of Kevlar was mentioned before. > >Consider this... if Kevelar is bad with moisture, why do they >make Kayaks out of it? > >I think the problem the Air Force has is that any moisture wicked >into the structure freezes at 40,000 feet, this constant expansion >and contraction causes delamination. > >I for one, don't plan to be flying at Flight Level 40 anytime soon >in my KR, so I think my Kevlar aft deck, gear leg fairings, and >forward deck will do OK. > >I will agree that it is a pain in the ass to work with... difficult >to cut. But it wets out fine with Aeropoxy. > > -- Ross > > >9/15/2002 11:02:34 AM, "Robert X. Cringely" wrote: > >>Kevlar is, quite simply, a pain in the ass to work with. DON'T DO >>IT. One problem with Kevlar that typically isn't mentioned is its >>propensity to pick up moisture. This is what led the U.S. Air Force >>-- once a big user of Kevlar for fairings and radomes -- to ban it >>from further use and to replace every bit of Kevlar in the fleet. >>Now all those fairings and radomes are S-glass. >> >>If you really demand higher performance than e-glass, consider >>s-glass. Its specs are only about 15 percent better than e-glass, >>but experience in the field shows it to be substantially tougher. >> >> >>Bob >> >> >> >> >>At 9:09 AM -0400 9/15/02, Leigh Plymale wrote: >>>I was researching the net about fiberglass carbon fiber and kevlar. >>>As far as can tell kevlar and carbon fiber have very close to the >>>same strength and weight. with kevlar being 3 times glass price and >>>carbon fiber at about 6 times the price. Has any one tried to use >>>kevlar? It seams to me that substantial weight can be saved using >>>kevlar. The one sticky problem I see is how to trim the kevlar. I am >>>sure that cutting the fabric is difficult as their are special >>>scissors sold for the job. What I really want to know is if the >>>edges can be trimmed using a razor blade as normal? Also does kevlar >>>work similarly to glass? >>> >>>Leigh Plymale >>>flyboy232@adelphia.net >> >> >>-- >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" >> >>To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >>For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org >> >>See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp >>or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files >> >> >Ross Youngblood >http://N541RY.com >mailto:rossy65@attbi.com (Home) >mailto:ross_youngblood@credence.com (Work) > -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 12:36:10 -0400 To: "krnet" From: "rfarmer" Subject: glass suppliers Message-ID: <023901c25cd6$009f6cc0$f24562d8@oemcomputer> ------=_NextPart_000_0236_01C25CB4.78BB3A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some links are at www.foamhead.com on the links page. Bob ------=_NextPart_000_0236_01C25CB4.78BB3A80-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 12:31:52 -0500 To: "KR Net Mail" From: "Patrick Driscoll" Subject: Red Oak Message-ID: <002201c25cdd$c95f77c0$5bdb6843@oemcomputer> ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C25CB3.DEAA4F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'll be leaving St. Paul on Thursday morning and driving to Omaha. I'll = spend the night in Omaha and go on to Red Oak about noon.=20 Anyone wanting a ride from anywhere along the line, contact me before = Wed. night and let me know where to pick you up. I'm driving a Ford = Windstar so will have plenty of room. Pat Driscoll patrick36@usfamily.net ------ http://USFamily.Net/info - Unlimited Internet - From $8.99/mo! ------ ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C25CB3.DEAA4F80-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 12:54:03 -0500 To: "Patrick Driscoll" , "KR Net Mail" From: "Patrick Driscoll" Subject: Re: KR> Red Oak Message-ID: <000e01c25ce0$e1fed840$84db6843@oemcomputer> Should have said that I can go by I-35 or I-29 or any route in-between. Pat Driscoll ------ http://USFamily.Net/info - Unlimited Internet - From $8.99/mo! ------ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 21:06:38 +0100 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "David & Jo Ann Lininger" Subject: OT: Red Oak Message-ID: <3D84F65E.26318.32250B@localhost> Any hams going to Red Oak? If so, will you be monitoring the Red Oak 2 meter repeater? Let me know off-list. I'm going up to Lincoln Friday evening, and will be driving solo to Red Oak early Saturday morning. I could take someone from Lincoln, but I will be returning when everyone breaks for the banquet. 73 David, KBOZKE kb0zke@arrl.net EM37kt home, EM37jv school ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 11:57:22 -0700 To: From: "jim @ synergy design" Subject: glass /kevlar/ carbon Message-ID: <004101c25ce9$bad74280$0101a8c0@pavilion> ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C25CAF.0D31E0C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Leigh and netters, I am using a combination of kevlar and carbon fiber = depending on application. I have found kevlar is NOT the monster some = would make it out to be. Just takes a little different technique(and = tools). It IS a little harder than Carbon and 'glass, However if you = make your entire plane out of carbon(if you can afford it,) you cannot = use "hidden" antennas as carbon blocks RF as well as an aluminum = structure. I do have the special scissors, but I use a single edge razor = blade for trimming after it has cured. On ALL edges(overlaps,corners, = etc) use peel ply to keep the "fuzz" to a minnimum. I have also had NO = problems wetting out the Kevlar with Aeropoxy. Another good source for = cloth besides ACS is Applied Vehicle Technology. They are in = Indianapolois. (317) 546-6840 . There is also Fiberlay out of Seattle, = 1-800-942-0660. Not always the best price, but knowledgeable and stocks = hybrid cloth that is a combination of Kevlar AND Carbon . Hope this = helps. See Ya' all in Red Oak, Jim Sporka ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C25CAF.0D31E0C0-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 20:06:29 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: KR> glass /kevlar/ carbon Message-ID: >From: "jim @ synergy design" >Leigh and netters, I am using a combination of kevlar and carbon fiber >depending on application. I have found kevlar is NOT the monster some would >make it out to be. Just takes a little different technique(and tools). Have to agree with Mark............been there, done that. Carbon fiber is much easier to work with than kevlar. Kevlar can be used but I found it just wasn't worth all the extra effort over carbon fiber. As for the ant., I don't think the post indicated the user wanted to use fiber on the entire airplane. Not arguing with ya Jim, just I'd rather take a beating or move a wet mattress, than wrestle with kevlar:-) What application do you find kevlar is desirable over carbon fiber? Dana Overall Richmond, KY http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 16:19:32 -0400 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Donald Reid Subject: Re: KR> EAA Fly In at Petersburg ( PTB ) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20020915161430.00a30050@pop.erols.com> --=====================_21287325==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:20 PM 9/8/2002 -0400, Kenneth L Wiltrout wrote: >I just returned from the fly in approx 30 miles south of Richmond, Va. >Had a good time, met Don Reid and lots of other enthusiasts. I just finished loading up pictures from the Virginia State EAA Fly-in. It took a while due to my work schedule. I talked to several KR builders, Ken, and one other KR driver (whose name I forgot to write down...Sorry). Ken has a beautiful KR. I believe that he would have had an award winner if he had wanted to be judged. Photos of the two KR's are available on the http://vaeaa.org site. Don Reid mailto:donreid@erols.com Bumpass, Va Visit my web sites at: KR2XL construction: http://users.erols.com/donreid/kr_page.htm Aviation Surplus: http://users.erols.com/donreid/Airparts.htm EAA Chapter 231: http://eaa231.org Ultralights: http://usua250.org VA EAA State Fly-in: http://vaeaa.org --=====================_21287325==_.ALT-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 21:17:06 -0700 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Ross Youngblood Subject: Weeping Wings Message-Id: Well I've been busy this weekend. I have both wings on the airplane again, with the fuel line issues resolved for the moment (good flow). I put 5 gal in each wing and 5 in the header tank Saturday evening, came in Sunday to find the right wing tank weeping... hopefully this is from the pick-up fittings... it looks like it is coming from this region, but I will have to pull the wing to find it. There was some fuel in the fuselage bottom which suggests I have a loose fitting in the header tank feed too. Couldn't find anything today. The left wing looks better, but it looks like it has a slow weep too, so both wings will have to be pulled. Tried to start the engine today anyway after chocking the front wheels and tieing the tailwheel... did a good job of flooding the engine by over priming... so I decided to call it a day. I got a lot of sympathy from a paraplegic who has built a 4 seat turbine powered Glasiar. Before I moved away he was just mounting the airfame to the engine. (His turbo prop engine is about as long as my KR fuselage from the seat to the tail). His turbine Glasair is flying now, and he is getting dual from a local instructor. He came buy to say Hi. Turns out his Glasair wet wings weeped fuel too, so he understood what a pain it is to solve wet wing fuel leaks. My good news is that I am 80% sure the problem can be corrected by removing the fuel pick-up fittings, cleaning the up, and re-installing them. If this isn't the case, building a new set of wings with alum tanks and pre-molded skins is starting to look good to me. I figure if he can cut and stretch a Glassair to make it a 4 seater and mount an engine bigger than my KR from a wheelchair, fixing my wing fuel problems should be a piece of cake! He says his he has gotten his tuine glassair to 240Kts, but doesn't want to go full out just yet. (I'ts his 4th flight... he had a test pilot do the first flights). I'm told his climb is better than 3200FPM, but with a 60GPH fuel burn (full throttle) and 80 gal tanks, you have to plan short hops I found my DAR inspection checklist, so I hope to be crossing things off by next month in preperation for inspection... assuming I can get my fuel tanks to behave! -- Ross Ross Youngblood http://N541RY.com mailto:rossy65@attbi.com (Home) mailto:ross_youngblood@credence.com (Work) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 08:32:14 -0500 To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: asavant@notes.state.ne.us Subject: Test Message-ID: Ameet Savant asavant@notes.state.ne.us ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 16:08:33 -0700 To: "krnet" From: "Michael Clark" Subject: copperstate Message-ID: ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C25D9B.4E08AA60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi group, Lurker Mike here, bought plans, merely need money and motivation. Fo= r the later; any KR2(S)'s gonna be at Copperstate Flyin? I'd love to bu= m a ride around the patch (6'1", 225#). Mike ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C25D9B.4E08AA60-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 20:45:00 -0400 To: From: "Leigh Plymale" Subject: Carbon/kevlar Message-ID: <004501c25de3$74be8ec0$1b853518@chvlva.adelphia.net> ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C25DC1.ECF44D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK OK! I have seen the light on kevlar. The two deciding factors were the = moisture that upon freezing can delaminate the construction, and the low = compressive strength that kevlar has. These "killers" are enough to make = me question kevlar as a viable "structural" component. So, as I intend to widen the fuse and use a corvair engine, my concern = was to lighten the plane by using a stronger thinner reinforcement thus = allowing less epoxy resin to be used. This will hopefully allow me to = save enough weight to offset the weight gains. Special thanks to all for = the great info and links to find reinforcing materials. In reading mail tonight I notice that Ross Y. is having trouble with = weeping wing tanks. I have heard that the alcohol in gas is responsible = for the leaks if the tanks are constructed using epoxy. As I understand = there is alcohol in the gas in small quantities to absorb water and move = it out of the fuel systems. Alcohol as we know is an epoxy thinner. = Another home builder friend, building an Osprey, sloshed his tanks with = a compound to stop this process. Does polyester resin also have this = problem? I noticed that sloshing tanks was not the easiest task. He had = to remove the in tank strainers first and then reflox them in. =20 Leigh Plymale flyboy232@adelphia.net ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C25DC1.ECF44D20-- ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************