From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 15 Mar 2003 04:14:15 -0000 Issue 659 Date: Friday, March 14, 2003 9:15 PM krnet Digest 15 Mar 2003 04:14:15 -0000 Issue 659 Topics (messages 15836 through 15865): wasting time and space 15836 by: Crkr2s.aol.com 15840 by: Dan Heath 15863 by: virgnvs.juno.com Re: Ideas to assist short strip landings 15837 by: Peter & Sandra Holmes 15838 by: bill kirkland 15842 by: Seifert, Richard E 15853 by: AviationMech.aol.com 15861 by: virgnvs.juno.com R: KR> Bellyboards 15839 by: Aripo 15843 by: Justin Fun Friday pics. 15841 by: Dana Overall 15844 by: Kevin 15848 by: Dana Overall Fuel tank vent/overflow 15845 by: Bob Sauer 15849 by: Dan Heath 15854 by: Kenneth L Wiltrout Roy Marsh Bellyboard 15846 by: Eric Evezard Friction cutting 15847 by: Eric Evezard 15850 by: NORMAN SEEL New plans owner. 15851 by: volucer 15852 by: Scott Cable Re: Slowing a KR 15855 by: Phillip Matheson 15859 by: Kenneth L Wiltrout Re: How to inspect crank case VW 15856 by: Phillip Matheson 15857 by: Phillip Matheson Re: Flutter 15858 by: Phil Maley Ken Rand Memorial 15860 by: Mark Jones Re: KR Dinner 15862 by: virgnvs.juno.com Re: fuel tanks 15864 by: virgnvs.juno.com definition of a troll - major RANT alert! 15865 by: Mark Langford Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:19:36 EST To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: Crkr2s@aol.com CC: Crkr2s@aol.com Subject: wasting time and space Message-ID: <1ec.428afca.2ba2b258@aol.com> --part1_1ec.428afca.2ba2b258_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i have read several articles about fuel tanks most of which have been most informative but what does fuel tanks and dinner reservations or idle chit chat for that matter have in common? this is not the only subject that seems to get side tracked. to many times a subject is used to chat about other matters. what does this do to a subject thread in the archives when we try to read about a particular subject. This happens way to much. please keep to the Subject line. If you have info about an unrelated subject, start a new Subject line. my 10 cents worth. chuck wyatt crkr2s@aol.com Tehuacana TEXAS --part1_1ec.428afca.2ba2b258_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 06:14:35 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) To: From: "Dan Heath" Subject: Re: KR> wasting time and space Message-Id: <3E71E3CB.00004E.01184@dan> --------------Boundary-00=_BWSQ1A05BHK000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe that they are getting information about the KR dinner at Sun N = Fun which is most relavant on the KR net. However, you guys could get that information by mailing Virg directly.=0D =0D N64KR=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Red Oak - 2003=0D =0D See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic=0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =0D =0D =20 --------------Boundary-00=_BWSQ1A05BHK000000000-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 21:01:10 -0500 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: virgnvs@juno.com Subject: Re: KR> wasting time and space Message-ID: <20030314.230752.-354501.7.virgnvs@juno.com> Right, MY FAULT, Virg On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:19:36 EST Crkr2s@aol.com writes: > i have read several articles about fuel tanks most of which have been > most > informative > but what does fuel tanks and dinner reservations or idle chit chat > for that > matter have in common? this is not the only subject that seems to > get side > tracked. to many times a subject is used to chat about other > matters. what > does this do to a subject thread in the archives when we try to read > about a > particular subject. This happens way to much. please keep to the > Subject > line. If you have info about an unrelated subject, start a new > Subject line. > my 10 cents worth. > > > chuck wyatt > crkr2s@aol.com > Tehuacana TEXAS > Virgil N. Salisbury AMSOIL WWW.LUBEDEALER.COM/SALISBURY ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:59:27 +1300 To: From: "Peter & Sandra Holmes" Subject: Re: KR> Ideas to assist short strip landings Message-ID: <001801c2e9e6$82af1f60$bec736d2@ga7vkml> Thanks for the ideas, sounds like a little sideslip practice may be helpful .I do sometimes approach at 55kts ias.but wouldn't go any slower as have had a wing drop once on roundout. My a/s indicator reads 10kts high at 130 kts so need to be careful.Can anyone send me some drawings or pictures of bellyboards please? Thanks Peter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 00:33:44 -0500 To: From: "bill kirkland" Subject: Re: KR> Ideas to assist short strip landings Message-ID: <007e01c2e9eb$4990adc0$eb942a18@lndn.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> jIM 66KNOTS + 77MPH W.G.(Bill) KIRKLAND kirkland@vianet.on.ca ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Sellars" > Orma: What is 60 Kt in MPH? 1.3 of 50mph is 65mph. > Jim > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > > > flesner@midwest.net writes: > > > > > > > final 60kts > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 06:56:24 -0800 To: "'KRnet@mailinglists.org'" From: "Seifert, Richard E" Subject: RE: KR> Ideas to assist short strip landings Message-ID: <9BA7A06DA8127B4B925954F3F8705D3405B8BC0C@XCH-SW-09.sw.nos.boeing.com> I'm with you Ken. The speed brake will help a lot. You should be able to get your final down to 70 mph without difficulty and 65 if you work real hard. Most of my approaches in my KR2 are over the fence at 70 mph. I wonder how many landing advisors we have here, that actually fly KR's regularly and how many are merely spouting numbers out of a book. N56SR -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth L Wiltrout [mailto:klw1953@juno.com] Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 6:59 PM To: KRnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> Ideas to assist short strip landings I gotta throw in my 2 cents here, my 2s stalls around 48-50 mph, that being said at 1.3 times 50=65 or so and prior to adding my belly board there was no way I could slow down to a speed like that on final with out the nose coming up so high that I couldn't see the runway at all. I just installed the board so I won't know how it works till May. I routinely flew final at 80mph and chopped the power over the numbers, and waited forever to get the wheels on the ground. 6399U On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:00:26 +0100 "Christian Kogelmann" writes: > Larry, > > your set up seems a good idea, please let me (us) know how you are > getting > on with the belly board. > I am thinking of installing one too. > > This "dump some flaps" business is not to easy as I am very busy > flying the > airplane onto the deck. I find it very difficult to do three things > with two > hands at the most critical part of a KR flight. > My flaps work mechanically and I have to reach over (down) and move > the > handle, I haven't tried to do that. (So far I have 15 flight hours > on my > KR-2S) > > As for the 60kts, I know it seems fast and I still need to verify > my > readings. However we did the stall tests and I have just under > 50kts > indicated flying solo and 55 kts indicated dual (during rain or snow > the > stall goes up to 58-59kts dual). > 60kts seems ok at the moment but there is a possibility that I might > have a > reading error. > > Cheers > Chris > (OE-VPD) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: larry flesner > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 2:19 AM > Subject: KR> Ideas to assist short strip landings > > > > > > > >Now we are back to the 660m. The approach speed we use is > downwind 70, > base > > >65 and final 60kts. > > >The approach is very low and the treshold is the target line. > > >We have the RR plans flaps and on approach we fully extended them > (they > > >improve runway visibility but do not have the braking effect, > during hot > > >days they seem to extend the float over the sealed runway even > longer...). > > >We use wheel braking as well. If everything is perfect we need > 400m only, > > >however if we can't get the above speeds it is better to go > around. > > >Chris > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > Chris, > > > > Once you have your flare established, dump (retract) the flaps. > This will > > help > > to kill the float. I've done it many times with Cessnas but they > had the > > electric flaps. Remember, flaps are like all the other flight > control > > surfaces > > on the aircraft. Their settings can be changed at any time when > operated > > within their limits and assuming you understand the consequences > of > > your actions. > > > > One of the questions the check pilot asked me some 30 years ago > on > > my commercial check ride concerned the use of flaps. I had set > up > > a full flap approach to a short field in a Cessna 150 (emergency) > and > > he asked me what I'd do if I realized I was landing short. My > > immediate reply was "dump some flap". That was the answer he > > was looking for. He said many pilots will not retract flaps on > approach > > once extended. Like a brain cramp or something. > > > > I placed a belly board on my KR. I had considered not doing so > and just > using > > the slip on approach to short runways. In the end I realized that > the > slip > > is only good to the point of flare. At that point you are in > ground > effect > > and > > the wing is the most efficent and that is where you need the drag > for the > > shorter runways that I hope to fly from. I installed an electric > operated > > belly board ( 9" X 30" ) that will deploy to 90 degrees down in 7 > seconds. > > That and a 60" prop at idle should give me considerable drag on > approach. > > I hope to be testing it this summer !! > > > > Larry Flesner > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply > all" > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > See the KRNet archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply > all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > > ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:57:03 EST To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: AviationMech@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> Ideas to assist short strip landings Message-ID: --part1_a9.3b730728.2ba3b83f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/13/2003 10:00:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, klw1953@juno.com writes: > no way I could slow down to a speed like that on final with out > the nose coming up so high that I couldn't see the runway at all. > This was the very reason that I installed Flaps and the problem was solved. I'm sure that the belly board would have the same effect on landing attitude and speed. Orma aka AviationMech KR-2 N110LR 1984 to Present www.members.aol.com:/aviationmech --part1_a9.3b730728.2ba3b83f_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 20:59:14 -0500 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: virgnvs@juno.com Subject: Re: KR> Ideas to assist short strip landings Message-ID: <20030314.230752.-354501.6.virgnvs@juno.com> CAN'T SEE OVER THE NOSE. Get some Cub time, You do not have to see over the nose. Watch the side of the runway. Get some dual, Virg On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:59:10 -0500 Kenneth L Wiltrout writes: > > I gotta throw in my 2 cents here, my 2s stalls around 48-50 mph, > that > being said at 1.3 times 50=65 or so and prior to adding my belly > board > there was no way I could slow down to a speed like that on final > with out > the nose coming up so high that I couldn't see the runway at all. > I just installed the board so I won't know how it works till May. I > routinely flew final at 80mph and chopped the power over the > numbers, and > waited forever to get the wheels on the ground. 6399U > > > On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:00:26 +0100 "Christian Kogelmann" > writes: > > Larry, > > > > your set up seems a good idea, please let me (us) know how you are > > > getting > > on with the belly board. > > I am thinking of installing one too. > > > > This "dump some flaps" business is not to easy as I am very busy > > flying the > > airplane onto the deck. I find it very difficult to do three > things > > with two > > hands at the most critical part of a KR flight. > > My flaps work mechanically and I have to reach over (down) and > move > > the > > handle, I haven't tried to do that. (So far I have 15 flight hours > > > on my > > KR-2S) > > > > As for the 60kts, I know it seems fast and I still need to verify > > > my > > readings. However we did the stall tests and I have just under > > 50kts > > indicated flying solo and 55 kts indicated dual (during rain or > snow > > the > > stall goes up to 58-59kts dual). > > 60kts seems ok at the moment but there is a possibility that I > might > > have a > > reading error. > > > > Cheers > > Chris > > (OE-VPD) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: larry flesner > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 2:19 AM > > Subject: KR> Ideas to assist short strip landings > > > > > > > > > > > >Now we are back to the 660m. The approach speed we use is > > downwind 70, > > base > > > >65 and final 60kts. > > > >The approach is very low and the treshold is the target line. > > > >We have the RR plans flaps and on approach we fully extended > them > > (they > > > >improve runway visibility but do not have the braking effect, > > during hot > > > >days they seem to extend the float over the sealed runway even > > longer...). > > > >We use wheel braking as well. If everything is perfect we need > > > 400m only, > > > >however if we can't get the above speeds it is better to go > > around. > > > >Chris > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > Once you have your flare established, dump (retract) the flaps. > > > This will > > > help > > > to kill the float. I've done it many times with Cessnas but > they > > had the > > > electric flaps. Remember, flaps are like all the other flight > > control > > > surfaces > > > on the aircraft. Their settings can be changed at any time when > > > operated > > > within their limits and assuming you understand the consequences > > > of > > > your actions. > > > > > > One of the questions the check pilot asked me some 30 years ago > > > on > > > my commercial check ride concerned the use of flaps. I had set > > > up > > > a full flap approach to a short field in a Cessna 150 > (emergency) > > and > > > he asked me what I'd do if I realized I was landing short. My > > > immediate reply was "dump some flap". That was the answer he > > > was looking for. He said many pilots will not retract flaps on > > > approach > > > once extended. Like a brain cramp or something. > > > > > > I placed a belly board on my KR. I had considered not doing so > > > and just > > using > > > the slip on approach to short runways. In the end I realized > that > > the > > slip > > > is only good to the point of flare. At that point you are in > > ground > > effect > > > and > > > the wing is the most efficent and that is where you need the > drag > > for the > > > shorter runways that I hope to fly from. I installed an > electric > > operated > > > belly board ( 9" X 30" ) that will deploy to 90 degrees down in > 7 > > seconds. > > > That and a 60" prop at idle should give me considerable drag on > > > approach. > > > I hope to be testing it this summer !! > > > > > > Larry Flesner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply > > > all" > > > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > > > See the KRNet archives at > > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > > > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply > > all" > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > See the KRNet archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply > all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > > Virgil N. Salisbury AMSOIL WWW.LUBEDEALER.COM/SALISBURY ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 11:30:26 +0100 To: From: "Aripo" Subject: R: KR> Bellyboards Message-ID: <009b01c2ea14$f71fd820$ceb61997@aripo> Peter You can see my bellyboards on www.negri.cjb.net Franco Negri I-KRFN ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter & Sandra Holmes To: Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 5:59 AM Subject: Re: KR> Ideas to assist short strip landings > Thanks for the ideas, sounds like a little sideslip practice may be helpful > .I do sometimes approach at 55kts ias.but wouldn't go any slower as have had > a wing drop once on roundout. My a/s indicator reads 10kts high at 130 kts > so need to be careful.Can anyone send me some drawings or pictures of > bellyboards please? > Thanks Peter > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 07:18:56 -0600 To: From: "Justin" Subject: Re: KR> R: KR> Bellyboards Message-ID: <000701c2ea2c$478d2c10$dcda1818@computer> If you look at Roy Marchs KR2S it is NOT full wifth but has lightening holes. He doesnt seem to have any problems with it blanking out the tail.His plan is in Kitplanes magazine, What month/year I dont know. Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aripo" To: Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 4:30 AM Subject: KR> R: KR> Bellyboards > Peter > You can see my bellyboards on > www.negri.cjb.net > > Franco Negri > I-KRFN > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Peter & Sandra Holmes > To: > Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 5:59 AM > Subject: Re: KR> Ideas to assist short strip landings > > > > Thanks for the ideas, sounds like a little sideslip practice may be > helpful > > .I do sometimes approach at 55kts ias.but wouldn't go any slower as have > had > > a wing drop once on roundout. My a/s indicator reads 10kts high at 130 > kts > > so need to be careful.Can anyone send me some drawings or pictures of > > bellyboards please? > > Thanks Peter > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 08:04:40 -0500 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Fun Friday pics. Message-ID: Friday is anything goes as long as it's aviation related.....them's the rules. Like the Eagles song, "maybe someday we will find, that is wasn't really wasted time". I have been doing nothing but finishing up my right wing so I didn't want to bore anyone with the same ol pics just reversed. I'll order my fuselage next week but to start something different I started on the fuselage wing center section. This section is machined to match the spars so they send it to you with the wing. I've had to rivet on the verticals, drill for snap bushings for electrical and fuel lines. I order about $100 worth of part that will come with the fuselage just to have everything to finish this assembly. I hope they give me credit on my fuselage order. http://rvflying.tripod.com/center1.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com/center2.jpg Compare these to the KR and you will see many similarities. As you can see, it has verticals just like the KR. The vertical on this are attached to the center section first, then the fuselage. The KR is reversed. Instead of wing attach fittings outside the fuselage, this incorporates something like Ed's bent center section. In the second picture you can see two of the wing attach bolts holding the for and aft center sections together. The spar of the wing is positioned between the two center section spars. I've taken some advice and bought some Boelube (invented by Boeing) to lube up drill bits, bolts, etc. The stuff is the best I have found for lubing up parts. Great stuff and cheap. I'm still amazed at this CNC stuff and the fit you get. Without the Boelube I wouldn't want to try and put these bolts in. Much like Mark Langford's carbon fiber seat, the seat support ribs will get attached to the aft portion you see and the seat bottom gets rivet to the ribs. This is done in one piece and then the for portion of the fuselage and aft portion of the fuselage are assembled to make one big boat. I've still got a couple hours on these center section. Total time about 3 hours and about 2 more to go to finish the center section. Keep on building gang. Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host Richmond, KY http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 07:30:30 -0500 (EST) To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: Kevin Subject: Re: KR> Fun Friday pics. Message-ID: <4509842.1047655830585.JavaMail.nobody@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net> What are the holes that are cut just into the edge of the verticals? If you put a bolt through this hole, do you have a ground out washer to get the washer to lay flat? Are these parts anodized? Kevin Golden. -------Original Message------- From: Dana Overall Sent: 03/14/03 08:04 AM To: KRnet@mailinglists.org Subject: KR> Fun Friday pics. > > Friday is anything goes as long as it's aviation related.....them's the rules. Like the Eagles song, "maybe someday we will find, that is wasn't really wasted time". I have been doing nothing but finishing up my right wing so I didn't want to bore anyone with the same ol pics just reversed. I'll order my fuselage next week but to start something different I started on the fuselage wing center section. This section is machined to match the spars so they send it to you with the wing. I've had to rivet on the verticals, drill for snap bushings for electrical and fuel lines. I order about $100 worth of part that will come with the fuselage just to have everything to finish this assembly. I hope they give me credit on my fuselage order. http://rvflying.tripod.com/center1.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com/center2.jpg Compare these to the KR and you will see many similarities. As you can see, it has verticals just like the KR. The vertical on this are attached to the center section first, then the fuselage. The KR is reversed. Instead of wing attach fittings outside the fuselage, this incorporates something like Ed's bent center section. In the second picture you can see two of the wing attach bolts holding the for and aft center sections together. The spar of the wing is positioned between the two center section spars. I've taken some advice and bought some Boelube (invented by Boeing) to lube up drill bits, bolts, etc. The stuff is the best I have found for lubing up parts. Great stuff and cheap. I'm still amazed at this CNC stuff and the fit you get. Without the Boelube I wouldn't want to try and put these bolts in. Much like Mark Langford's carbon fiber seat, the seat support ribs will get attached to the aft portion you see and the seat bottom gets rivet to the ribs. This is done in one piece and then the for portion of the fuselage and aft portion of the fuselage are assembled to make one big boat. I've still got a couple hours on these center section. Total time about 3 hours and about 2 more to go to finish the center section. Keep on building gang. Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host Richmond, KY http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 13:24:48 -0500 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: KR> Fun Friday pics. Message-ID: >From: Kevin > >What are the holes that are cut just into the edge of the verticals? If >you put a bolt through this hole, do you have a ground out washer to get >the washer to lay flat? Are these parts anodized? > >Kevin Golden. That hole has been enlarged to 5/8 to accept a snap bushing. The hole in the spar web is pre punched, you just enlarge it a Unibit. Yes, the spars come anodized. They're about too pretty to paint over but they will get primed and painted the interior color. Dana Overall Richmond, KY http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:45:44 -0700 To: "kr" From: "Bob Sauer" Subject: Fuel tank vent/overflow Message-ID: <004001c2ea49$27f9f500$763a3818@ph.cox.net> ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C2EA0E.7B82B300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What have some of you that are flying done to vent/overflow you fuel = tanks? How about you, Bobby Muse? Thanks, From: resauer@cox.net Sun City West, AZ ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C2EA0E.7B82B300-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 14:10:05 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) To: From: "Dan Heath" Subject: Re: KR> Fuel tank vent/overflow Message-Id: <3E72533D.00006F.01184@dan> --------------Boundary-00=_TWERG0R712S000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: What have some of you that are flying done to vent/overflow you fuel tanks?=0D =0D I flew my first KR for over 6 years. The Header tank fuel vent came thro= ugh and down the firewall using an aluminum tube. Below the firewall and bel= ow the cowling, it made a gentle 90deg turn forward.=0D =0D N64KR=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Red Oak - 2003=0D =0D See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic=0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20 --------------Boundary-00=_TWERG0R712S000000000-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 18:10:04 -0500 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: Kenneth L Wiltrout Subject: Re: KR> Fuel tank vent/overflow Message-ID: <20030314.181640.2428.0.klw1953@juno.com> I have a 13 gal header tank that I ran alum tubing to the tail end of the fuse. I bent the tubing forward so it also creates a positive pressure in the tank when in flight and acts as a vent when on the ground. So far so good. I also flared the end of the tubing to help capture the air as well. On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:45:44 -0700 "Bob Sauer" writes: > What have some of you that are flying done to vent/overflow you fuel > tanks? How about you, Bobby Muse? > > Thanks, > > From: resauer@cox.net > Sun City West, AZ ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 20:06:32 +0200 To: "KR MAIL" From: "Eric Evezard" Subject: Roy Marsh Bellyboard Message-ID: <001001c2ea55$45b7fa40$f5ce07c4@erick> ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2EA65.3535A5E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Netters, The Roy Marsh bellyboard is shown on Page 37 of January 1995 Kitplanes = magazine.The board has 16 holes and appears to be attatched to the = underside of the fus. with a piano hinge.He prefers to land on the back = of the main wheels,as opposed to a full stall landing,keeping the = tailwheel just clear of the pavement during touchdown.Rollout is = straight and true,and about 1500 feet is ample for stopping ---according = to the article. Besr Regards, Eric Evezard, South Africa ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2EA65.3535A5E0-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 20:11:27 +0200 To: "KR MAIL" From: "Eric Evezard" Subject: Friction cutting Message-ID: <001101c2ea55$46e61a00$f5ce07c4@erick> ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C2EA65.E535CCE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Netters, Has any netter tried friction cuttng 4130 ? It appears the blade is put = on the bandsaw backwards and the cut is done with the blunt side of the = blade,the saw revs increased. Best Regards, Eric Evezard ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C2EA65.E535CCE0-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 14:48:28 -0800 To: "krnet" From: "NORMAN SEEL" Subject: Fw: KR> Friction cutting Message-ID: <00cb01c2ea7b$d5120480$2b6d3f04@dslverizon.net> There was an article in SA several years back on friction cutting with a bandsaw It said you could cut anything, even a file. I rigged up a 12 inch bandsaw to run at the recommended speed, which is very fast. Even though I glued on the rubber tires, they flew off from centrifugal force. My conclusion was that at least a 14 inch bandsaw would be required to get the wheel speed down. It is a great idea, and I'm sure would do the job if done right. Norm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Evezard" To: "KR MAIL" Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 10:11 AM Subject: KR> Friction cutting Hi Netters, Has any netter tried friction cuttng 4130 ? It appears the blade is put on the bandsaw backwards and the cut is done with the blunt side of the blade,the saw revs increased. Best Regards, Eric Evezard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 21:26:52 +0100 To: From: "volucer" Subject: New plans owner. Message-ID: <008601c2ea68$0d022d20$a5126850@VAIO> ------=_NextPart_000_0082_01C2EA70.6E21A290 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0083_01C2EA70.6E21A290" ------=_NextPart_001_0083_01C2EA70.6E21A290 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable GlacierHi Guy's, I got the KR2 plans today, hope to be busy for a while. Any suggestions for start-up? I will accept all. 73, Dr. Shahar Tsabari Tel. +39.0365.761000 Fax +39.0365.761900 ------=_NextPart_001_0083_01C2EA70.6E21A290 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Glacier
Hi Guy's,
I got the KR2 plans today, hope to be busy for a while.
Any suggestions for start-up? I will accept all.
73,
Dr. Shahar Tsabari
Tel. +39.0365.761000
Fax=20 +39.0365.761900

 

------=_NextPart_001_0083_01C2EA70.6E21A290-- ------=_NextPart_000_0082_01C2EA70.6E21A290-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:47:38 -0800 (PST) To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: Scott Cable Subject: Re: KR> New plans owner. Message-ID: <20030314204738.85194.qmail@web40812.mail.yahoo.com> --0-61148864-1047674858=:83761 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Shahar, Heh Congratulations! The first thing to do is to sit down and read the assembly manual. Pull out the drawings and study them where the manual referrs to a drawing. Put your drawings on a nice large flat surface with really good lighting. After you have read completely from cover to cover the assembly manual, the first thing you need to build is a build table. I made mine from 5'x10'x 1"thick particle board mounted to legs from a large folding table and a 2x6 frame. Read the manual at least 2 times. Good Luck. PS Don't forget your drafting manual and drafting tools. volucer wrote:BODY { MARGIN-TOP: 20px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 50px; COLOR: #006666; FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica}Hi Guy's,I got the KR2 plans today, hope to be busy for a while.Any suggestions for start-up? I will accept all.73, Dr. Shahar Tsabari Tel. +39.0365.761000 Fax +39.0365.761900 Scott Cable KR-2S # 735 Linden, MI s2cable1@yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online --0-61148864-1047674858=:83761-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 10:39:19 +1100 To: From: "Phillip Matheson" Subject: Re: KR> Slowing a KR Message-ID: <002501c2ea82$f481f1c0$0100a8c0@barry> I may be missing something here, but if you lift the nose then air speed will decrease, Why is it so difficult to slow a KR down ??? Phil Matheson matheson@dodo.com.au 61 3 58833588 NSW Australia. See our VW engines and Home built kits and parts at; www.vw-engines.com www.homebuilt-aviation.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 20:48:46 -0500 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: Kenneth L Wiltrout Subject: Re: KR> Slowing a KR Message-ID: <20030314.204847.2428.2.klw1953@juno.com> It will but once you loose sight of the runway there are other issues that come into play, such as where am I? On Sat, 15 Mar 2003 10:39:19 +1100 "Phillip Matheson" writes: > I may be missing something here, but if you lift the nose then air > speed > will decrease, > > Why is it so difficult to slow a KR down ??? > > Phil Matheson > matheson@dodo.com.au > 61 3 58833588 > NSW > Australia. > See our VW engines and Home built kits > and parts at; > www.vw-engines.com > www.homebuilt-aviation.com > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply > all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > > ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 10:50:47 +1100 To: From: "Phillip Matheson" Subject: Re: KR> How to inspect crank case VW Message-ID: <005501c2ea84$8d6feb20$0100a8c0@barry> Ron Contact Ron Slender, VW Engines Australia. He is a really nice mam, and may be able to assist you. Ron Slender E-mail Address(es): rslender@smartchat.net.au Have a look at his web page , listed below. www.vw-engines.com www.homebuilt-aviation.com Regards Phil Matheson matheson@dodo.com.au 61 3 58833588 NSW Australia. See our VW engines and Home built kits and parts at; www.vw-engines.com www.homebuilt-aviation.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darren Pond" To: Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 12:31 PM Subject: RE: KR> How to inspect crank case VW > > HI Dan > Looks like I'll have to buy the book to even get started. > With out knowing alot about the engine out side that it was running and has > 600 flying hours. I'm starting from scratch. > > No I have not done a compression test and not sure about any leaks. No prop > strikes have occoured that I'm certain. > > Do we have any actual VW engine builders on the kr net that I can connect > with. The real question that I'm looking for is how do you inspect a Crank > case? Magna flux is a no brainer and easy enough to do. > What am I looking for as far as the case degrading over time? Are there any > bearing mounts that are not repairable? > > What should I look for before I start pulling things apart? > > Books on order just tring to get the ball rolling. > > My first attempt at getting a VW engine mechanic to work on it got the usual > and expected look of fear about legal responsiblity. Man I hate that > response!! Fear of the unknown must of killed more dreams than any accidents > every will. > > Darren Pond > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Heath [mailto:DanRH@AllTel.net] > Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 11:17 AM > To: KRnet@mailinglists.org > Subject: Re: KR> How to inspect crank case VW > > > Darren, Do you suspect that you have a leak? Do the valves look bad or are > you haveing a problem with compression? Do you know what kind of crank you > have, cast or forged? Do you know if there ever were any prop strikes? Did > this engine come from Gilbert Duty? I know you want to fly as soon as > possible, so what I am asking is WHY? First, get Steves book and read it. > That should give you an indication of > things to look for that may give you the reason, if you don't already have > one. Also, there is a serial number range on the case that were cases that > you do > not want to use. See if Steve knows what that is, or check out Bob Hoover's > site. See if you have one of those cases. That would be a good reason to > tear it down. If you do decide to tear it down, have the crank magnafluxed. > You can go to > a 1915 fairly inexpensively, if you do have to replace the case. N64KR > Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC DanRH@KR-Builder.org See you in Red Oak - > 2003 See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic See our EAA > Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org -------Original Message------- From: > KRnet@mailinglists.org Date: Saturday, March 08, 2003 08:17:31 PM To: KR Net > \(E-mail\) Subject: KR> How to inspect crank case VW Question of the day I > have a 1835vw with 600 hours on it aircraft time. The goal is to give it a > full over haul How do you inspect the crank case? Crank shaft end play? Can > any one suggest how to measure it and what is should be? I plan on doing a > full tare down soak it in a cleaner to get the old paint off and oil residue > (any suggestions on what the cleaner should be) Pull the crank and ring it > to listen for cracks Hone out cylinders and put in new rings What about the > internal bearings? Just replace them? (remember your talking to a tool maker > here not an engine mechanic) valves get them ground and reseated? or just > replace and reseat new ones? Inspect pistons for ware and tare. How do you > judge this? I'm guessing score marks are the tell tail signs with an > overhaul. Any good web sites to get up to speed on doing this? If I can > find a mechanic to do this what sort time would he need. Springs coming and > I have other things to work on too so farm this out will not hurt my pride > just my pocket book. Should I consider tossing this engine and building up > a 2100. Remember the main goal is to go flying this spring not make a life > long career out of this overhaul. Darren Pond > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 10:54:19 +1100 To: From: "Phillip Matheson" Subject: Re: KR> How to inspect crank case VW Message-ID: <006601c2ea85$09f9a1e0$0100a8c0@barry> Sorry Darren, I called you Ron in my reply. Phil Matheson matheson@dodo.com.au 61 3 58833588 NSW Australia. See our VW engines and Home built kits and parts at; www.vw-engines.com www.homebuilt-aviation.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 09:09:55 +0800 To: From: "Phil Maley" Subject: re: KR> Flutter Message-ID: Oops. In my earlier reply to Eduardo José Jankosz message about flutter, I neglected to paste the web page link that I found. Here it is: http://www.aircraftdesigns.com/flutter_analysis.html Thanks to Phil Matheson for asking the question. By the way, the search for that article also led me to one about problems with reduction gearbox designs and other problems with experimental aircraft at: http://www.oriontechnologies.net/Documents/safety.htm Well worth reading! Regards to all Phil Maley Perth Australia phil@wotech.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 22:01:18 -0600 To: "KR-Net" From: "Mark Jones" Subject: Ken Rand Memorial Message-ID: <00d001c2eaa7$8831d380$6401a8c0@wi.rr.com> ------=_NextPart_000_00CD_01C2EA75.3D5BE120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All, Thanks to those who have donated to the Ken Rand Memorial Fund, we are = able to meet the March 31st deadline to have Ken's Memorial engraved on = the Memorial Wall for this year's ceremony at Airventure 2003. The = ceremony will be on August 3rd at 11:00am. I hope many of you will join = us there for this ceremony.=20 Here is the link for the Memorial Wall = http://www.airventure.org/2003/whattosee/memorial_wall.html Again, thanks to all who have donated so far and a very special thanks = goes out to one of our fine members who donated $200 today.=20 Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA=20 E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at =20 http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html ------=_NextPart_000_00CD_01C2EA75.3D5BE120-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 20:51:54 -0500 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: virgnvs@juno.com Cc: KRnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> KR Dinner Message-ID: <20030314.230752.-354501.4.virgnvs@juno.com> Would be HWY 37 maybe. Goes south through the city to Drane Field road to airport. Virg On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 12:20:16 -0800 (PST) Frank Ross writes: > Virg, > Do you remember what exit to take off I-4 to get to > Holiday Inn South and what street it's on? That might > help people who haven't been there before or don't > know their way around. > Thanks > Frank > --- virgnvs@juno.com wrote: > > KR Dinner Friday night, Holiday Inn South, 7 > > PM,$16.00 Per. > > Virg > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online > http://webhosting.yahoo.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply > all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > > Virgil N. Salisbury AMSOIL WWW.LUBEDEALER.COM/SALISBURY ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 20:56:37 -0500 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: virgnvs@juno.com Subject: Re: KR> fuel tanks Message-ID: <20030314.230752.-354501.5.virgnvs@juno.com> Will put you down. We need a count for the resturant. Will be buffet, Virg On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 19:03:35 -0600 "Edwin Blocher" writes: > Need reservation?? > ED > Ed Blocher > Santa Rosa Beach, FL > eblocher@earthlink.net > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Cc: > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 11:24 AM > Subject: Re: KR> fuel tanks > > > > KR Dinner Friday night, Holiday Inn South, 7 PM,$16.00 > Per. > > Virg > > > > On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 23:33:25 -0600 "Edwin Blocher" > > writes: > > > Virg, > > > Which din-din? > > > I'll be driving down (8 hours) Friday and don't want to spend > the > > > $25 to get > > > in that late in the day. I have never been to Sun N Fun so I > don't > > > know > > > whats going on. > > > ED > > > Ed Blocher > > > Santa Rosa Beach, FL > > > eblocher@earthlink.net > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 10:14 AM > > > Subject: Re: KR> fuel tanks > > > > > > > > > > U MISS de dinn-dinn Friday nite,?? > > > > Virg > > > > On Tue, 11 Mar 2003 12:01:29 -0600 "Edwin Blocher" > > > > writes: > > > > > Ask Jeeves or search Google for Marine aluminum fuel tanks. > > > > > Or::Atlantic Coast Welding, Inc (800-434-TANK) will make any > > > > size > > > > > any shape. Tested and built to U.S.C.G Spec. > > > > > Ed Blocher > > > > > Santa Rosa Beach, FL > > > > > eblocher@earthlink.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Virgil N. Salisbury AMSOIL > > > > WWW.LUBEDEALER.COM/SALISBURY > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT > "reply > > > all" > > > > > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > > > > > See the KRNet archives at > > > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > > > > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply > > > > all" > > > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > > > See the KRNet archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > > > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Virgil N. Salisbury AMSOIL > > WWW.LUBEDEALER.COM/SALISBURY > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply > all" > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > See the KRNet archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply > all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > > Virgil N. Salisbury AMSOIL WWW.LUBEDEALER.COM/SALISBURY ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 22:14:48 -0600 To: From: "Mark Langford" Cc: "krnet" Subject: definition of a troll - major RANT alert! Message-ID: <024401c2eaa9$6b334550$2402a8c0@800Athlon> VairHeads, As many of you know, I'm the administrator of both KRNet and CorvAircraft, and am expected to keep the lists focused on their missions, which is the building and flying of KR aircraft and CorvAircraft engines. By most accounts, I do OK at it. The string of messages below outlines an exchange that I've had with someone apparently named Dr. John Sandt, email address josandt@netzero.net, over the past week. I publish it here for your information, and more importantly, because I'm mad as hell and won't take it anymore. I don't want this to generate a bunch of messages on the list, so if you have a comment, please offer it to either me or Dr. Sandt directly, rather than to the list. I think the messages speak for themselves. If you don't have 10 minutes to read them, please disregard the following and hit the delete key. I'll just go ahead and apologize for the waste of bandwidth now. My wife says I shouldn't even send it to the list, because "who cares, other than you" (and she's absolutely right), but surely I can get away with just one message about this character. You may remember that on February 3rd, a cyptic message appeared on CorvAircraft that was attributed to the work of a "troll", one who incites anger on email lists for the pure joy of it. Here's the history of where that comment came from, and the unpleasant exchange that has resulted. Originally, somebody posted two messages to KRNet. One was calling for a national day of prayer, and the other was a hoax message purportedly from some kid who was "doing a science project to see how fast email travels", an obvious effort from a spammer to gather email addresses from the unsuspecting. Another clown had also sent some silliness regarding Dr. Seuss at about the same time. This kind of stuff has no place on either KRnet or CorvAircraft, and I privately emailed both subscribers to refrain from forwarding that sort of mail to the list. Meanwhile, several other netters commented to the list that such "submissions" were inappropriate on KRnet. I'll pick up after several folks made fairly innocuous "this doesn't belong here" type messages. You be the judge about the following comments. I think Dr. Sandt's words speak for themselves. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------- From: To: Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 3:32 PM Subject: KR> Re:RE: KR> Fw: your help needed > Wrong. It's sent because someone cares and has an honest desire to do right, be right, think right, live right, and help others. (As opposed to your nonsense.) His was from the heart. Most people do not object to others who feel the need to speak from the heart. John --------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- From: "Edwin Blocher" To: Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 4:13 PM Subject: Re: KR> Re:RE: KR> Fw: your help needed > John, > Who the He%$ are you? > Mark, > Here is another one who doesn't know what this net is for. > Just to keep it lega,I am looking for a nose gear. I think I'll go wit a try > gear. Still need to sell center steck assy.. > ED ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- From: "Mark Langford" To: Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 4:37 PM Subject: Re: KR> Re:RE: KR> Fw: your help needed > This is simply NOT the place for mass "please forward to everyone you know" > mailings of any kind. What if all 600 people on this list sent just one > such message each week? That means you'd have to sift through 86 such > messages every DAY, looking for the answer to whatever KR question it was > that you asked. I feel sure there are hundreds of email lists you could get > on that would flood your mailbox with warm caring messages from the heart, > but as long as I'm in charge, KRnet isn't gonna be one of 'em... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- From: To: Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 5:34 PM Subject: Sorry > Mark, Sorry. I hate all the junk that gets posted, too. I'm the new guy so I will mark that one up to my "one free stupid mistake." Thanks for keeping us honest. John P.S. When you hear from Ed again, tell him thanks for his charm. I don't mind being corrected, but one doesn't have to be an ass&^$% about it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------- From: "Mark Langford" To: Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 6:46 PM Subject: Re: Sorry > No problem. I didn't mention your name in my reply, just to try to soften > it a bit. > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ From: To: Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 12:28 AM Subject: CorvAircraft> One departure > Adios! > > Shortly after the Columbia tragedy, someone posted a thoughtful piece about > prayer. It seemed to me an appropriate thought. He was flamed by the > members of this net because he was "off-topic." I supported him and was > flamed as well. > > I've been a pilot for 25 years and have always considered pilots to be a > breed apart. They have always been courteous and honorable. That is, I > thought that until I met the new breed that resides here. America's > greatest and most heroic pilots were killed, yet the politically correct > zealots refused to allow any tribute because it might interfere with the > incredibly important business of TALKING about building engines. I am > ashamed to be associated with such a group, so I'll get off the list. "Ed" > seems to think that it only exists for the know-it-alls anyway. No new > blood required. Well, you can have it Ed. You and those like yourself. > > Next time I see some rude SOB in my rear view mirror flipping me the > finger, I'll think of you Ed. Actually, I'll think of this group. The group > that thinks it's petty newsletter is too important to "waste time" thinking > about anything bigger than a chunk of tin. > > Adios! Make sure to tell them what a piece of crud I was, Ed! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------- From: "Mark Langford" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 8:07 AM Subject: KR> Fwd: CorvAircraft> One departure > > John, > > You're a little confused, aren't you? You sent the message below to the > CorvAircraft list, but I believe your beef was with KRnet. I noticed you > recently asked questions on CorvAircraft that, when answered, would have > helped you to build a reliable engine for your aircraft. But now you're > "mad at the world" and have unsubscribed from both lists. KRnet is here to > help people build and fly KR aircraft safely, and CorvAircraft is here to > help people build safe, reliable aircraft engines. The "petty newsletter" > you refer to was also created to help people build and fly their KR aircraft > more safely and efficiently, and has it's roots in an invaluable collection > of 27 years of informative how-to articles regarding the construction of KR > aircraft. Believe it or not, there are some of us who go way out of our > way to help others in these endeavors, which for some of us, is our idea of > doing good for others, mostly total strangers. That's why we're all here. > > Then again, some people's idea of doing good is to hit the "forward" button > and then the "to everyone in address book". That's fine, as long as KRnet > or CorvAircraft are not in your addressbook, and we don't have to put up > with it. If we wanted to trade warm, meaningful messages from the heart, > we'd all be on one of the other many mailinglists who's main purpose that > would serve. > > By wearing your feelings on your sleeve and getting all worked up over your > perception of what is "good" and what (and where) is inappropriate, you've > now deprived yourself of all of this expert help, from people who have "been > there, done that", and who's only selfless goal is to help others. I guess > we all have our own ideas about what's right, what's wrong, what's helpful, > and what's not... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- From: To: Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 5:13 PM Subject: Re:Fwd: CorvAircraft> One departure > MR. Langford, Please convey my apologies to the Corvaircraft group. They appear to be a fine group - very helpful and cooperative. If it's not a hassle please allow me this last post there, though I've quit both this and the KR net group (the offensive group - may they fly Home Depot plywood). John ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- 5 weeks later, I get the following cryptic message: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- From: To: Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2003 9:41 PM Subject: Fw:failure notice > > ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- > > Hi. This is the qmail-send program at mailinglists.org. > I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses. > This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out. > > : > Sorry, only subscribers may post. If you are a subscriber, please forward this message to corvaircraft-owner@mailinglists.org to get your new address included (#5.7.2) > > --- Below this line is a copy of the message. > > Return-Path: > Received: (qmail 17490 invoked from network); 9 Mar 2003 03:04:31 -0000... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Before I even had a chance to read the above message, I received the following one: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- From: To: Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2003 11:22 PM Subject: Blacklisted for "non-zealot" status? > Just wondering if I've been banned from posting because of my "non-politically-correct-zealot" status. Hopefully, a computer glitch, and not a lunatic twitch. McCarthyism is supposed to be dead - the only ones still practicing it are the politically-correct loonies. Tell me we don't have that problem on a "Corvair talk only" list. God help us all if we do. John ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------ From: "Mark Langford" To: Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 9:16 AM Subject: Re: Blacklisted for "non-zealot" status? > John, > > Chill out. I assure you that no censorship or McCarthyism is going on. > This is the first I've heard of this. I've just deleted you from the list > and recreated you, and added you the the digest list, which should ensure > that you have two chances to send mail to the list. If you still have > problems, let me know, but problems with this list are very rare (haven't > had one until this one). Just for kicks, see if you can send a message to > tetnet@mailinglists.org . It's a test list with nobody on it but me and > you. > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: To: Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 11:38 AM Subject: Re:Re: Blacklisted for "non-zealot" status? > Mr. Langford, Are you sure I qualify for TWO opportunities to post? > Like I said, McCarthyism is alive and well. You undoubtedly have your doctorate in some form of engineering, or at least have substantial progress toward same. Mine is in the law, and I'm ashamed that freedom of speech is being trivialized by the elitists. There is no excuse whatsoever for it. I'm sure that you are standing by with some lame excuse as to how the TWO opportunities to post are just temporary, or for testing purposes, or some other nonsense. I no longer care much what you do....allow me (as your royal subject) to continue to participate or not. Doesn't matter. Please get over yourself and function as a true intellectual. And try to remember that freedom of speech matters in all arenas, even this trivial one. John ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- From: "Mark Langford" To: Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 1:13 PM Subject: Re: Re:Re: Blacklisted for "non-zealot" status? > John, > > You don't understand. I haven't done anything to your account, EVER. I > don't even have the "deny access" feature turned on, so I couldn't deny your > ability to post if I wanted to. If there is a problem with your ability to > post to CorvAircraft, it's not from something that I have done or am doing. > Almost without exception, problems that people have with either KRNet or > CorvAircraft are problems on THIER end, not the mailinglist end (although > I'll admit that the message you forwarded me sure looks like a CorvAircraft > problem). > > I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I am not trying to keep you from posting > to CorvAircraft. This morning I deleted you from CorvAircraft and then > recreated your address, in an effort to SOLVE your problem, nothing more, > nothing less. I then created an account on another list at mailinglists.org > in an attempt to help troubleshoot your problem, but you haven't even tried > it, preferring to launch a preemptive strike at me instead, convinced of my > insincerity. You may be a lawyer, but you're also a paranoid jerk with a > big chip on your shoulder, convinced that everybody else in the world is out > to get you and screw you in some way. So at this point, I don't really care > if you can post or not! I don't know if you're a > "non-politically-correct-zealot" or not, but I can already tell that you're > not the kind of person that I want anything to do with, under any > circumstances! > > John, you need to stand back and take a long look at yourself in the mirror > and question why you are so quick to assume that I'm deliberately screwing > you in some way, rather than a plain old random technical quirk. In short, > you need professional mental therapy... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------- From: To: Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 3:34 PM Subject: Re:Re: Re:Re: Blacklisted for "non-zealot" status? > Langford, If you question where my attitude came from, better go back and review the treatment you gave me when the problem began. Remember - when you originally gave me your politically correct diatribe about how any sentimentality towards America's fallen heroes was politically incorrect and had no place on your website. If that's not political-correctness fanaticism, what is?!! You are the one in need of therapy. > Only, the problem is, the kind of therapy you need has to do with your weird political persuasion, and even a therapist cannot help you there. Since your obvious intent was, and is, to keep me off the website, stop making lame excuses, be the weasel that you really are, and just kick me out. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------ From: "Mark Langford" To: Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 5:26 PM Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Blacklisted for "non-zealot" status? > John, > > If you'd like to unsubscribe from CorvAircraft, send an empty email to > corvaircraft-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org . If you continue to have > problems posting to CorvAircraft, please let me know and I'll do whatever I > can. Thank you for your patience with this situation. > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------ From: To: Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 7:21 PM Subject: Re:Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Blacklisted for "non-zealot" status? > Thank you ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------ From: To: Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 3:43 PM Subject: Fw:failure notice > > ---- Forwarded Message --- > > Hi. This is the qmail-send program at mailinglists.org. > I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses. > This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out. > > : > Sorry, only subscribers may post. If you are a subscriber, please forward this message to corvaircraft-owner@mailinglists.org to get your new address included (#5.7.2) > > --- Below this line is a copy of the message. > > Return-Path: > Received: (qmail 9956 invoked from network); 13 Mar 2003 21:38:26 -0000 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------- From: To: Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 4:03 PM Subject: Magical Computers > Mr. Langford - Let me ask an "engineering" type question. What is the probability that the computer would allow delivery of ALL e-mail except ones mailed to the corvaircraft mailing list? Answer: Zero. Thanks for allowing me to at least receive postings. Just as well, or I'd have people asking about legalities. Dr. J. Sandt ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------- From: "Mark Langford" To: Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 5:13 PM Subject: Re: Fw:failure notice > You were listed as josandt@netzero.NET, so I changed it to > josandt@netzero.COM. Maybe that will fix it, so try again. > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------- From: "Mark Langford" To: Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 5:24 PM Subject: Re: Magical Computers > I don't have a clue. Maybe you can explain to me how you were getting email > at josandt@netzero.net when your real email address is actually > josandt@netzero.com ? My guess is that netzero has some mechanism that > replaces erroneous addresses from .net to .com, but CorvAircraft wouldn't > have such a mechanism. That's all that I can think of. > > Have a nice day and thank you for your endless patience and understanding... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------- From: "Mark Langford" To: Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 5:34 PM Subject: Re: Magical Computers > OK, so I just went checking. I have email from you from both > josandt@netzero.COM and josandt@netzero.NET . When you figure out which one > is really your email address, please let me know and I'll kill the other > one. Until then you are probably going to get all CorvAircraft mail twice. > If that is the case, let me know and I'll delete josandt@netzero.NET from > the list. I'd just do it now, but I wouldn't want to risk inconveniencing > you as kind, understanding, and patient as you've been through this ordeal, > which is obviously all my fault... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------- From: To: Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 5:57 PM Subject: Re:Re: Magical Computers > Mr. Langford, Sorry. As far as I know, it's josandt@netzero.net - > That's the address I've had for the past year. I may have given myself a "COM" by mistake somewhere along the way. I'm a teacher as well as a lawyer so I should be anal enough, like so many others, to claim that I never make a mistake (but I won't). John ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------- From: "Mark Langford" To: Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 6:42 PM Subject: Re: Re:Re: Magical Computers > John, > > I would think that if you are subscribed to CorvAircraft as > josandt@netzero.net , and you would like to send email through CorvAircraft, > then you should actually send it from josandt@netzero.net , not from > josandt@netzero.com ! That is the explanation for all of this, and NOT that > I've done a single solitary thing to prevent you from posting. > > The bottom line is that this problem has been of your own making, yet > despite my assurances to the contrary, you were incredibly quick to blame it > on me, the elitest, McCarthyistic WEASEL! You, sir, have a serious > personality disorder, and you need to take a long look at your behavior in > this matter. I shudder at the thought of you teaching anybody anything, > especially relating to "justice"... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------- From: To: Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 11:49 PM Subject: Re:Re: Re:Re: Magical Computers > Mr. Langford, I don't recall ever sending anything from "josandt@netzero.COM!" As you know, the computer generates that portion of the message, not the e-mailer. I was just trying to be a little more conciliatory since you seemed to be less an A.H. in your last message. Of course your response to me being conciliatory is that you become an even bigger A.H. than ever. This demonstrates which one of us is the weasel, doesn't it? Can't you ever get over yourself, you anal retentive jack-ass? John ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------- From: "Mark Langford" To: Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 6:20 AM Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Magical Computers > John, > > Computers only do what they're told to do. Either you or someone else set > up the return address in your email client on one of your computers to use > josandt@netzero.com rather than josandt@netzero.com. In any event, it > certainly wasn't my fault that you tried to send messages to CorvAircraft > from an unauthorized account. > > Again, thank you for your kind patience and understanding in this matter. > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------- From: To: Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 12:54 AM Subject: Family Feud > Mr. Langford, Have considered more fully your last post. Yes, it's conceivable that I could have mis-entered info when re-subscribing. You're right, that would make me a real jerk, jack-ass, etc. If it's true that the fault was mine ...no, let's assume that the fault IS mine. Therefore, everything you've said is true and everything I've said is based on mistakes and misconceptions. If that's the case, I apologize and will whack myself with a two-by-four each day for the next 3 weeks. You don't need to send me anymore nasty e-mails because I'm not enjoying the endless debate any more. Life's too short. Your contribution to Corvair development is undeniable, and it's no fun being at odds with someone who so many view as a Deity. > > You're right that I returned with a chip on my shoulder. I detest the modern McCarthy era. Political correctness makes this old codger sick. > Talk at you later, good buddy. J.S. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------- I guess that's the closest thing I'm going to get to an apology. My view of this exchange is that I've gone out of my way to help Dr. Sandt, and he's gone out of his way to belittle me for absolutely no reason. I am simply amazed at his attitude and his conduct regarding this matter. Like my wife says, "no good deed goes unpunished". This is the only post I intend to make on the matter, and as list administrator, I will allow Dr. Sandt one rebuttal post as well. Any more than one post regarding this matter, and I'll unsubscribe him permanently. If I've accomplished nothing else with this message, I'd like for the moral to be to treat others as you'd like to be treated by them. If you give folks the benefit of the doubt, rather than jumping to conclusions and blowing them to "smithereens" first, things work a whole lot better... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************