From: To: Subject: krnet Digest 23 Mar 2003 20:24:02 -0000 Issue 667 Date: Sunday, March 23, 2003 1:24 PM krnet Digest 23 Mar 2003 20:24:02 -0000 Issue 667 Topics (messages 16059 through 16088): Re: HEY JUSTIN? 16059 by: Peg and Mike Meyer Re: KR-material 16060 by: Volucer 16067 by: virgnvs.juno.com 16068 by: virgnvs.juno.com Langford project update 16061 by: larry flesner 16064 by: Mark Langford Re: toe-in/camber 16062 by: Peg and Mike Meyer 16063 by: larry flesner 16069 by: Mark Langford 16071 by: Mark Langford 16072 by: B109pro.aol.com 16073 by: larry flesner 16077 by: WA7YXF.aol.com 16078 by: Robert X. Cringely 16080 by: Mark Langford 16081 by: Robert X. Cringely Re: Starting.. 16065 by: virgnvs.juno.com Re: KR G-factor 16066 by: virgnvs.juno.com aileron bell crank parts 16070 by: Timboyer2.wmconnect.com 16075 by: Tim Brown KR2 for Sale 16074 by: B109pro.aol.com 16084 by: Theo Peckham Re: RR? 16076 by: Alessandro Ascanio 16083 by: Mark Jones water based paints. 16079 by: harold woods aileron bell cranks 16082 by: Cowgirlflying.wmconnect.com 16087 by: Flymaca711689.aol.com Re: A day at the Airplane Factory 16085 by: SkyVisionSC.aol.com "KRNetiquette" 16086 by: Mark Langford Re: Langford paint 16088 by: Jumpnkd.aol.com Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 08:09:33 -0600 To: From: "Peg and Mike Meyer" Subject: Re: KR> HEY JUSTIN? Message-ID: <003301c2f145$dac6e320$745afea9@o0c8u6> Dave: Forget it. I asked this kid what he wanted for some gauges and he pulled the same crap he's pulling with you. Do yourself a favor a deal with someone who's reliable. Mike Meyer ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hartz" To: Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 12:55 AM Subject: KR> HEY JUSTIN? > JUSTIN > WHAT ABOUT THE ARTIFICIAL HORIZON I ASKED YOU > ABOUT?HOW MUCH? DAVE > --- Justin wrote: > > What is the materal made from. Im assuming it is > > complete? Is it looking > > like Dean Shelby's airplane, white is light as > > possible or more like Roy > > march. > > > > Justin > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 11:21 PM > > Subject: KR> SLING SEAT > > > > > > > Greetings everyone... > > > > > > I'm removing my sling seat and doing something > > differant.If anyone is in > > need > > > of one let me know I'll ship it to you All I ask > > is you cover the shipping > > > cost > > > > > > Tim > > > Gettysburg PA > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , > > NOT "reply all" > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: > > krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: > > krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > See the KRNet archives at > > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! > http://platinum.yahoo.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 15:11:56 +0100 To: From: "Volucer" Subject: Re: KR> KR-material Message-ID: <006701c2f146$2aaf4710$ee02a8c0@piv226> Out side of the net we can write in Italian. My e-mail is: volucer@tin.it Phone number at the medical laboratory is: 0365.761000 ( if possible call me after 17:00 every day) home number 0365.73127 (after 21:00 every day). Best Regards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alessandro Ascanio" To: Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 3:06 PM Subject: Re: KR> KR-material > > Dr. Tsabari Shahar, > I'm pleased to hearing from you.. > I will definatelly contact you...please let me know your email address, > telephone number, ecc. > I'll your help.. > > > > > > >From: "Volucer" > >Reply-To: KRnet@mailinglists.org > >To: > >Subject: Re: KR> KR-material > >Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 14:57:08 +0100 > > > >Dear Aleassandro, > >I am starting my KR2S project too. > >I am living on Lake Garda Italy, you can contact me and we can make our > >progress together if you like, I have collected all ready some useful > >information's. > >Best Regards, > >Dr. Tsabari Shahar > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Alessandro Ascanio" > >To: > >Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 1:53 PM > >Subject: KR> KR-material > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What kind of wood (or any other material) do you use for buiding the > > > fusolage? > > > > > > Thanks for your kind help.... > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > > > > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > > > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > > > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > > >See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > >or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 10:15:46 -0500 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: virgnvs@juno.com Subject: Re: KR> KR-material Message-ID: <20030323.101855.-391851.2.virgnvs@juno.com> Alex, half of these answers are in the plans. Start there, Virg On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 14:49:14 +0100 "Alessandro Ascanio" writes: > OK - but where did you get the wood....? what kind of wood? > here (Italy) it's not easy to find out the material I need..... > did you cut the wood on your own....by your self? > > > > EST > > > >Alex > > > >Always use aircraft grade wood I built mind from aircraft grade > spruce. > >However I think a few of the other KR builders used other types but > I'll > >almost 100% what ever they used it was aircraft > > > >Good Luck > >Tim > >Gettysburg PA > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply > all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > > Virgil N. Salisbury AMSOIL WWW.LUBEDEALER.COM/SALISBURY ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 10:14:07 -0500 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: virgnvs@juno.com Subject: Re: KR> KR-material Message-ID: <20030323.101855.-391851.1.virgnvs@juno.com> All this is listed in the plans, Virg On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 13:53:35 +0100 "Alessandro Ascanio" writes: > > > > > What kind of wood (or any other material) do you use for buiding the > > fusolage? > > Thanks for your kind help.... > > Alex > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply > all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > > Virgil N. Salisbury AMSOIL WWW.LUBEDEALER.COM/SALISBURY ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 08:47:27 -0600 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: larry flesner Subject: Langford project update Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20030323084727.007b2960@pop.midwest.net> >I took this afternoon as I sanded Smooth Prime, headed toward urehane >primer. I'm still torn between leaving it in urethane primer and flying it, >and perfecting the finish later, or just throwing some Imron on it and >calling it "good enough". I've already decided that this is probably going >to be a 20 foot paint job. >Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= I had a local painter suggest that I might be able to shoot "clear coat" over my white primer as a finish and save some weight in the process. Any thoughts? Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 09:11:17 -0600 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Langford project update Message-ID: <00a101c2f14e$743ccd00$1202a8c0@basement> Larry Flesner wrote: > I had a local painter suggest that I might be able to shoot "clear coat" over > my white primer as a finish and save some weight in the process. I would worry that the clear coat probably wouldn't be compatible with the base coat. That might lead to the clear coat peeling off, like it did on a lot of 80's and 90's Detroit cars before they "got it right", although much of that damage appears to have been UV related (horizontal surfaces). I suppose you could do a test, but only time would answer the question. I guess the worst case is that you might have to sand the clearcoat off in a few years and really paint it, but chances are that you'll want to repaint it by then anyway. I wouldn't laugh at you if you tried it. I can hear somebody saying you could just go on a diet and save that same 20 pounds that a coat of paint would cost you, but I don't think that's an option with you... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 08:57:04 -0600 To: , "Mark Langford" From: "Peg and Mike Meyer" Subject: Re: KR> toe-in/camber Message-ID: <005601c2f14c$7849b4a0$745afea9@o0c8u6> I've thought about this issue a fair amount and I think I might be able to offer some ideas. Toe-in aids in keeping an aircraft going straight down the runway during takeoff and landing roll. Because a taildragger has its' CG located behind the mains, a slight yaw angle during takeoff or landing roll can quickly deteriorate into a ground loop. A little toe-in helps to alleviate this problem. A plane rolling straight ahead experiences equal drag from each wheel. When the aircraft starts an unwanted turn to the left, for example, the drag on the left wheel goes to zero, while the right wheel's drag increases. The unbalanced drag exerts a restoring torque that turns the aircraft back to the desired direction. If memory serves me correctly, I believe Grove has someone recommendations regarding toe-in on their website. Having said that, there are times when toe-in is not so beneficial by itself. Consider the situation when you make a crosswind landing and the upwind gear is the first to make ground contact. In this situation, toe-in only will tend to push the wheel under the aircraft resulting in a wild-assed swerve. This is were a camber comes in. A cambered wheel will tend to generate a force toward the direction of the wheels top. Hence, the wheel on the top will tend to move away from the aircraft, producing a leveling effect. So in my humble opinion a little camber and a little toe-in are a good thing. My question has been, and continues to be, exactly how much? The general consensus seems to be some, more than none. I hope this is information is somewhat helpful. Mike Meyer ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Langford" To: Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 8:00 AM Subject: Re: KR> toe-in/camber > Dan Heath wrote: > > >>How much do you think it will cost to get those shims machined? Are you > concerned about the camber because it is uneven or because of the amount? > What do you think the camber should be? << > > Dan, > > As little as I know about Bridgeports, I still think I could machine these > shims in 20 minutes, so I'm hoping a REAL machinist could do it in 10. > Surely that can't cost me more than $25. I just noticed that Wicks now > sells some (page 163 of 2002 catalog) for $17 each, but I'd need at least > four to get close, 8 to do better. But machining them to exactly my specs > will nail them to vertical and straight ahead, for minimum weight, although > that's probably unnecessary overkill. > > The unequal camber bothers me most, but I would like to see it vertical too. > I'm just that way. > > Unless somebody "illuminates" me first, I'm going to set it at zero toe-in > and zero camber with something like half fuel and my weight in the pilot's > seat. That should be just about average for both takeoffs and landings. > Bengelis didn't have an opinion either way, and said "shoot for straight > ahead". I have Pazmany's book "Light Airplane Design", which has pages on > gear design, but never once mentions toe-in or camber, so I'm ASSuming that > straight ahead is the ticket. Other sources of information are welcome... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 09:04:48 -0600 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: larry flesner Subject: toe-in/camber Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20030323090448.007ba970@pop.midwest.net> I just noticed that Wicks now >sells some (page 163 of 2002 catalog) for $17 each, but I'd need at least >four to get close, 8 to do better. >Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Check with a Ford parts department. They have shims that they use to align the older Ford one piece axles (I think) that come in 1/2 degree sets. I've not seen one but they might work. I had enough from the Cessna I salvaged out to do mine. I seem to recall they were about $4 each or so. It wouldn't hurt to check before spending lots of money. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 09:26:34 -0600 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> toe-in/camber Message-ID: <00bc01c2f150$9802e740$1202a8c0@basement> Mike Meyer wrote: > correctly, I believe Grove has someone recommendations regarding toe-in on > their website. I looked, and saw no recommendations, only: "Camber: If you know what value you desire, let us know. Otherwise we will compute the recommended camber for your gear based on material width and thickness, gear geometry, and aircraft weight. " Nothing about toe-in that I could locate, nor recommendations as to what camber anyone would shoot for. I think a rule of thumb for cars is 1/16" of toe-in. That translates to .15 degrees for a 24" diameter tire, but is considerably closer to straight ahead than my 2.27 degrees that I now have. My tires squeak when I roll it over the concrete floor in the basement! But as far as airplanes go, I'm still looking for the holy grail... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 09:57:27 -0600 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> toe-in/camber Message-ID: <00d101c2f154$e94cb320$1202a8c0@basement> Below are several messages that I snagged from Googles newsgroup search at http://groups.google.com/ , using rec.aviation.homebuilt and "toe-in" as the search string. PLEASE, if you respond to this post, I sincerely hope that you delete all of the stuff below before you reply. If you don't know how to hold down the left button while dragging and highlighting (and then hitting the delete key), then don't reply!!!!!! I still don't have a definitive answer, as the replies below are somewhat contradicting (though most lean towards toe-out), probably depending on the gear geometry and dynamics of the planes which are described. I guess our only hope of KNOWing what's right for KRs is some comments from KR pilots who've been there, done that... ----------------- Bill Daniels wrote: > > A few years ago I was asked to fly a Aeronica Chief that the owner said was > nearly impossible to land. Indeed, it did have an affinity for runway > edges. It seems that during a re-build, the landing gear was aligned > straight ahead. Cross checking with another one which was easy to land, > showed that the mains on that one had toe out. > It seems that when slight swerve starts, the weight is shifted to the > outside wheel. If that wheel has a little toe out, it gives the pilot > another fraction of a second to react with rudder. > > You might want to check this carefully before bending any steel. > > Bill Daniels The usual gear alignment specification for a taildragger calls for a setting between straight ahead and slight toe OUT. ANY toe in is not allowed. With the gear straight ahead the tracking is nuetral. With a little toe out, when a swerve starts it transfers load to the outside wheel, which tries to turn the airplane back toward the centerline, canceling the swerve and adding directional stability. With to IN, when a swerve starts the load transfer to the outside wheel tends to increase the swerve, reduceing directional stability. A friend of mine built a Pitts Special. When they were aligning the main gear he asked a buddy, "Do I want toe IN or toe OUT?" The buddy replied "We put toe IN on the car!" The put about one degree of toe IN on that Pitts. It was the squirreliest Pitts I have EVER seen! You could not track that thing down the runway! When we realigned the gear to the same amount of toe OUT, that Pitts turned into a pussycat! Remember, the more toe out you have, the more stable your roll out and the greater your tire wear! It is a trade off. I usually try for straight ahead to one to two degrees of toe out, no toe in at all. ------------ Probably the squirliest and most exciting airplane to land that I have ever flown was a Pitt's Special that was built with one degree of "toe in" on the main gear. We were about to give up on ANYone being able to safely fly the darn thing. Then I started to think about "toe in" and "toe out." We went back and bent the gear to convert the one degree of "toe in" into about one degree of "toe out." What happened? All of a sudden the airplane tracked like a ruler on roll out. Anybody could land the darn thing. It was unbelieveable what a drastic difference in ground handling resulted when we changed the main gear from a smidge of "toe in" to a smidge of "toe out." If you check with any experienced aircraft designer, you will find that the usual tolerance for track on the main gear is "parallel, with a tolerance of zero toe in, and a degree or two of toe OUT. ---------------- You recall correctly. Also Tony Bengalis wrote articles in SA about wheel alignment over the years that stressed the need for toe-out in tail draggers. Toe-out works because when the airplane starts to swing, which transfers the majority of the weight to the outside wheel, the fact that the wheel is toed out has a corrective effect as its traction becomes dominant. If the wheel is toed in, as its traction becomes dominant it will want to tighten the turn. That is the main factor that makes taildraggers squirrely. Taildraggers should have 1-3 degrees of toe-out while rolling. Another factor in some designs is the flexibility of the gear legs. Rolling drag on flexible legs can make the gear toe out on its own. They may need a nominal neutral toe or even a little toe-in, so that while rolling they flex to the desired range of toe-out. The Stearman is a pussycat on grass because of the relatively slippery surface, as is the case with all taildraggers. ----------------- There really isn't too much involved here. Check your landing gear alignment to make sure that the axles are perpendicular to the fuselage C/L and that toe in or out is right. Can tolerate a little toe in but no toe out. Brakes that drag can be a problem. The pivot bolt of the tailwheel should be nearly perpendicular to the ground or slightly inclined forward. Make sure that your tailwheel releases to full swivelling at full rudder in each direction. Playing with the tailwheel springs is only to make sure that the tailwheel and the rudder point the same direction. There should be slight tension on the tailwheel springs at all rudder angles. In a fast turn most tailwheel airplanes will exhibit a tendency to tighten the turn if you don't prevent it with a little opposite rudder. This is how a groundloop begins. Since the center of gravity is behind the main gear a divergence from a straight line will tend to cause the aircraft to tighten the turn, just the opposite of a nosewheel type since with a tricycle the CG is ahead of the main gear. This is why people who don't want to fly a real airplane fly the trikes! ----------------- Basically, it was this: what if the main gear drag links were "skewed" to steer the wheel into toe-out as the strut compressed. The gear would be at 0 degree toe-out when resting or rolling straight ahead, but if the weight shifted to the outside wheel at the start of a swerve, the compressing strut would "steer into the turn" giving the pilot a second or two to stop the swerve. --------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 11:23:48 EST To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: B109pro@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> toe-in/camber Message-ID: <10e.20202ff2.2baf3994@aol.com> --part1_10e.20202ff2.2baf3994_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Mark, I think that you are correct in your thinking of 0 degrees, with any toe in or out, I think if one gear unloads, it would want to "hunt"! Who knows where it would end up after correction, you have enough to worry about as it is. Saw your update, looking good, keep up the good work. See you at Sun-n-Fun, if you can make it. --part1_10e.20202ff2.2baf3994_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 10:39:23 -0600 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: larry flesner Subject: toe-in/camber Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20030323103923.007b6d20@pop.midwest.net> As to the toe-in/ toe-out, I tried to set mine to zero. My very limited taxi test to this point indicate it is very stable in the roll and goes where I point it with very little effort on my part. I've only had it to about 20 mph on the ramp so time will tell. On camber, I wanted my tire to run vertically when loaded so it would give me the best tire wear. I generally use the " that looks right" method of engineering. We shall see. :-) Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 12:12:44 EST To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: WA7YXF@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> toe-in/camber Message-ID: <135.1d29fad0.2baf450c@aol.com> --part1_135.1d29fad0.2baf450c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For what its worth Mark---- After taking a ride in N37LH out through the sagebrush when reducing the throttle with the tail up. One of our older very respected Mechanics told me to check my toe-in. I told him I set it straight ahead as per the book. His response was "I don't care what the BOOK says, I learned the hard way you must have some toe-in." I have now set mine up using the information from the warbuddies.homestead.com/ site. Good luck Mark, your bird sure looks great. Lynn N37LH > ". I have Pazmany's book "Light Airplane Design", which has pages on > gear design, but never once mentions toe-in or camber, so I'm ASSuming that > straight ahead is the ticket. Other sources of information are welcome... > > Mark Langford --part1_135.1d29fad0.2baf450c_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 09:19:25 -0800 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: "Robert X. Cringely" Subject: Re: KR> toe-in/camber Message-Id: I have a copy of Pazmany's Landing Gear Design for Light Aircraft (245 pages all about landing gears and he's saving retractable gears for Volume 2, which I assume will never appear). He covers toe-in on page 26 and camber on page 44. About toe, Paz says that some experts recommend toe-in and some toe-out using pretty much the same argument in each case. The toe-out guys say the wheel on the outside of the turn tends to run straight and counteract a ground loop. The toe-in guys say, as explained below, that the outside wheel will have more drag and thereby counteract the ground loop. So who is right? Maybe neither, maybe both, but Paz says the rule of thumb in the field is to set a little toe-in AT EMPTY WEIGHT. The amount he suggests is one eighth of an inch. Notice no degrees are mentioned. This method of setting toe is done by noting that part of the tire that is furthest from the center line of the aircraft. If the wheels are toed-in, then that furthest point will be on the side of the tire behind the axle where the rubber is bowed-out the most. Draw a line straight forward for a couple feet from there or I have just put a piece of tape on the floor, making sure as it goes forward on the floor that the tape is parallel to the aircraft center line. Now note the same place on the tire 180 degrees from the first, directly in front of the axle. If the wheel is toed-in, that point should be slightly closer to the aircraft center line than the first point we measured. Put another piece of tape on the floor stretching forward a couple feet, being sure to keep it parallel to the aircraft center line. Now you should have parallel lines or parallel pieces of tape and the distance between those lines (or the inner edges of the tapes) should be one eighth of an inch. Obviously this method will give you slight different amounts of toe depending on the tire size, but Paz says that difference is not significant as long as the job is done equally on both wheels. Of course he isn't thinking of tundra tires, but then I haven't yet seen a KR with those. I have used this method on several aircraft using Lamb tires, 5.00X5, and 6.00X6 and haven't noticed much difference. The point of setting the toe-in at empty weight is that the CG aft of the axle will tend to cause the wheels to toe-out as the aircraft is loaded. The idea (and I believe this came from an old Cessna 120/140 manual) is that a loaded aircraft will tend to have close to zero toe this way. Notice that if toe-out is set at empty weight that loading will tend to INCREASE that effect, so it is probably safer to generally go with Paz's method unless your aircraft is REALLY twitchy, in which case it probably makes more sense to adjust the gear geometry fore and aft. Now to camber, which is the relative position of the top and the bottom of the wheel, as opposed to the front and back of the wheel used to measure toe. Paz is a firm believer that wheels should run at zero camber UNDER LOAD, which means they'll need a tiny amount of positive camber (top outside most point of the tire is further from the aircraft center line than the bottom outside most point of the tire) in the unloaded condition with the idea that adding load will tend to introduce some negative camber specifically because our gear legs (or the retract version spring bar) displace outward under load. The idea is that this negative displacement will counteract the positive camber and the wheel will run straight under load. Paz suggests setting one degree of positive camber. If you want to do this using the method described above using inches instead of degrees, the number works out to about three sixteenths of an inch (0.175 in to be precise) for a 5.00X5 tire. If you are using Lamb tires you can drop down to about an eighth of an inch. Bob >I've thought about this issue a fair amount and I think I might be able to >offer some ideas. Toe-in aids in keeping an aircraft going straight down the >runway during takeoff and landing roll. Because a taildragger has its' CG >located behind the mains, a slight yaw angle during takeoff or landing roll >can quickly deteriorate into a ground loop. A little toe-in helps to >alleviate this problem. A plane rolling straight ahead experiences equal >drag from each wheel. When the aircraft starts an unwanted turn to the left, >for example, the drag on the left wheel goes to zero, while the right >wheel's drag increases. The unbalanced drag exerts a restoring torque that >turns the aircraft back to the desired direction. If memory serves me >correctly, I believe Grove has someone recommendations regarding toe-in on >their website. > >Having said that, there are times when toe-in is not so beneficial by >itself. Consider the situation when you make a crosswind landing and the >upwind gear is the first to make ground contact. In this situation, toe-in >only will tend to push the wheel under the aircraft resulting in a >wild-assed swerve. This is were a camber comes in. A cambered wheel will >tend to generate a force toward the direction of the wheels top. Hence, the >wheel on the top will tend to move away from the aircraft, producing a >leveling effect. > >So in my humble opinion a little camber and a little toe-in are a good >thing. My question has been, and continues to be, exactly how much? The >general consensus seems to be some, more than none. > >I hope this is information is somewhat helpful. > >Mike Meyer > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mark Langford" >To: >Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 8:00 AM >Subject: Re: KR> toe-in/camber > > >> Dan Heath wrote: >> >> >>How much do you think it will cost to get those shims machined? Are you >> concerned about the camber because it is uneven or because of the amount? >> What do you think the camber should be? << >> >> Dan, >> >> As little as I know about Bridgeports, I still think I could machine these >> shims in 20 minutes, so I'm hoping a REAL machinist could do it in 10. >> Surely that can't cost me more than $25. I just noticed that Wicks now >> sells some (page 163 of 2002 catalog) for $17 each, but I'd need at least >> four to get close, 8 to do better. But machining them to exactly my specs >> will nail them to vertical and straight ahead, for minimum weight, >although >> that's probably unnecessary overkill. >> >> The unequal camber bothers me most, but I would like to see it vertical >too. >> I'm just that way. >> >> Unless somebody "illuminates" me first, I'm going to set it at zero toe-in >> and zero camber with something like half fuel and my weight in the pilot's >> seat. That should be just about average for both takeoffs and landings. >> Bengelis didn't have an opinion either way, and said "shoot for straight >> ahead". I have Pazmany's book "Light Airplane Design", which has pages on >> gear design, but never once mentions toe-in or camber, so I'm ASSuming >that >> straight ahead is the ticket. Other sources of information are welcome... >> >> Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL >> mailto:langford@hiwaay.net >> see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" >> >> To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org >> >> See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp >> or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp >or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 11:39:16 -0600 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> toe-in/camber Message-ID: <007401c2f163$209335d0$2402a8c0@800Athlon> Bob Cringely wrote: > thereby counteract the ground loop. So who is right? Maybe neither, > maybe both, but Paz says the rule of thumb in the field is to set a > little toe-in AT EMPTY WEIGHT. Thanks Bob. I figured you'd have his landing gear book, which is the definitive work on the subject. I looked at that one a few years ago, but didn't bother to buy it because it seemed to concentrate on gear for larger planes. I have his Light Airplane Design and Light Airplane Construction manuals, which are excellent works even to this day. But I don't understand why he'd say to set it up unloaded in the expectation of the way it'll end up when it IS loaded. Sounds like another "hail Mary" to me. Why not just load it to what is normal encountered, and set it there? I'm beginning to think that I may have to answer this one myself, with a little experimentation some day... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 09:49:49 -0800 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: "Robert X. Cringely" Subject: Re: KR> toe-in/camber Message-Id: Good point, Mark. I have spoken to Paz and he's very much oriented to a production environment where any measurements on the shop floor have to be done before it is possible to load the gear. You can especially see this orientation in Paz's own designs, which are terribly complex. It is a wonder any PL-1's, PL-2's, and PL-4's are finished. So sure, if you can load your gear, then set it at zero toe-in and zero camber and you are done. Bob >Bob Cringely wrote: > >> thereby counteract the ground loop. So who is right? Maybe neither, >> maybe both, but Paz says the rule of thumb in the field is to set a >> little toe-in AT EMPTY WEIGHT. > >Thanks Bob. I figured you'd have his landing gear book, which is the >definitive work on the subject. I looked at that one a few years ago, but >didn't bother to buy it because it seemed to concentrate on gear for larger >planes. I have his Light Airplane Design and Light Airplane Construction >manuals, which are excellent works even to this day. > >But I don't understand why he'd say to set it up unloaded in the expectation >of the way it'll end up when it IS loaded. Sounds like another "hail Mary" >to me. Why not just load it to what is normal encountered, and set it >there? I'm beginning to think that I may have to answer this one myself, >with a little experimentation some day... > >Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL >mailto:langford@hiwaay.net >see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > >To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org >For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > >See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp >or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 10:13:11 -0500 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: virgnvs@juno.com Subject: Re: KR> Starting.. Message-ID: <20030323.101854.-391851.0.virgnvs@juno.com> Alex, go to a model shop and buy a simple rubber band stringer built model and build it up. The work and education will be worth the time. Get the plans from RR and read them four times. Build a table to work on and draw out the sides. Order the wood and get building, Virg On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 12:40:07 +0100 "Alessandro Ascanio" writes: > > > > > Greetings, > > Would do you suggest me to do for starting to build my KR2? > I mean, I do not have experience at all...Where should I buy the all > the > staff I need? > > Thanks > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply > all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > > Virgil N. Salisbury AMSOIL WWW.LUBEDEALER.COM/SALISBURY ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 10:16:28 -0500 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: virgnvs@juno.com Cc: krnet@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: KR> KR G-factor Message-ID: <20030323.101855.-391851.3.virgnvs@juno.com> IN THE PLANS, ALEX, Virg On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 15:00:17 +0100 "Alessandro Ascanio" writes: > > What's the KR2 G-factor? > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply > all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > > Virgil N. Salisbury AMSOIL WWW.LUBEDEALER.COM/SALISBURY ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 10:29:07 EST To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Timboyer2@wmconnect.com Subject: aileron bell crank parts Message-ID: <49.2c7f29fc.2baf2cc3@wmconnect.com> --part1_49.2c7f29fc.2baf2cc3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey guys I tried calling RR to see if they have the parts for the aileron bell crank already made but haven't gotten a return call yet. I having a devil of a time trying to cut them out Does anyone know if RR has them already made or should I just go to a ,machine shop.. Thanks Tim --part1_49.2c7f29fc.2baf2cc3_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 09:04:34 -0800 (PST) To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: Tim Brown Subject: Re: KR> aileron bell crank parts Message-ID: <20030323170434.54278.qmail@web40912.mail.yahoo.com> Tim: I made all of mine with a hacksaw, file and very fine sanding. It just took a weekend to complete everything. Tim Brown http://www.geocities.com/timwbrown > I having a devil of a time > trying to cut them out __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 11:53:05 EST To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: B109pro@aol.com Subject: KR2 for Sale Message-ID: <3d.2d8b9bdb.2baf4071@aol.com> --part1_3d.2d8b9bdb.2baf4071_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Netters, I am placing my KR2 in the for sale column, I'm asking $2500 for everything or best offer. You can visit EAA47.org and see my project. I'm sorry, I haven't up date the site as yet, but you can get a good idea as what all has been done to date. If you are coming to Sun-n-Fun, I live in the Tampa Bay area, and you can come and look at it. You can email me at B109pro@aol.com or call me at 727-823-3670 after 6 pm. Best regards and blue skies, Skip Brooks --part1_3d.2d8b9bdb.2baf4071_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 13:49:51 -0500 To: From: "Theo Peckham" Subject: Re: KR> KR2 for Sale Message-ID: <006b01c2f16c$fc996af0$fde32341@Ted> HELLO SKIP, I COULD BE INTERESTED IN YOUR PROJECT. I LIVE IN THE 352 AREA CODE (CITRUS COUNTY) SO THE TRAVELING IS OK. IF YOU HAVE SOME INFO YOU CAN SEND VIE E MAIL , PLEASE DO. IF NOT TELL ME WHEN TO CALL. THANKS, TED PECKHAM tpeckham@tampabay.rr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 11:53 AM Subject: KR> KR2 for Sale > Hello Netters, I am placing my KR2 in the for sale column, I'm asking $2500 > for everything or best offer. You can visit EAA47.org and see my project. > I'm sorry, I haven't up date the site as yet, but you can get a good idea as > what all has been done to date. If you are coming to Sun-n-Fun, I live in > the Tampa Bay area, and you can come and look at it. You can email me at > B109pro@aol.com or call me at 727-823-3670 after 6 pm. Best regards and blue > skies, Skip Brooks > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 18:09:24 +0100 To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: "Alessandro Ascanio" Subject: Re: KR> RR? Message-ID: What's RR?...and what's the address, tel, fax, email...web site? PLease...thank you _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 12:11:06 -0600 To: From: "Mark Jones" Subject: Re: KR> RR? Message-ID: <005701c2f167$932b2900$6401a8c0@wi.rr.com> http://www.krnet.org/ The web address above has everything you will ever need and all to links you will ever need. Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alessandro Ascanio" To: Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 11:09 AM Subject: Re: KR> RR? > What's RR?...and what's the address, tel, fax, email...web site? > > PLease...thank you > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To post to the list, email: krnet@mailinglists.org , NOT "reply all" > > To UNsubscribe, e-mail: krnet-unsubscribe@mailinglists.org > For additional commands, e-mail: krnet-help@mailinglists.org > > See the KRNet archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > or http://www.bouyea.net/ for the Word files > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 12:26:49 -0500 To: From: "harold woods" Subject: water based paints. Message-ID: <031301c2f161$6349d520$03000004@baol.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> ------=_NextPart_000_0310_01C2F137.7A30A9A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What water based paints are there out there for use on KRs?. While recently vacationing in Portugal, the rental VW Golf got it's = bumper scratched. I took it to a VW repair facility. Their technician looked at it , got a jar of silver coloured paint and a = small brush and hand painted in the scratches and then painted over = them.He said do not wash it for 2 hours. It looked good and passed the = inspection when I returned the car. Due to a language barrier I was not able to find out the name of the = paint was that the V.W. people were using. It was odourless and dried = quickly. I would sure like to spray that on the KR2M. I have over 900 emails wailting to be read. Please stop" clucking" on = the net about unimportant things. (LOL) Harold Woods. Orillia, ON.=20 Canada. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.463 / Virus Database: 262 - Release Date: 3/17/03 ------=_NextPart_000_0310_01C2F137.7A30A9A0-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 12:50:58 EST To: krnet@mailinglists.org From: Cowgirlflying@wmconnect.com Subject: aileron bell cranks Message-ID: --part1_d0.36d1293a.2baf4e02_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know if Rand Robinson has the aileron bell crank parts already made? Pat --part1_d0.36d1293a.2baf4e02_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 15:17:57 EST To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: Flymaca711689@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> aileron bell cranks Message-ID: <104.2ac92b46.2baf7075@aol.com> --part1_104.2ac92b46.2baf7075_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit try palmers mechine shop its listed on the kr net web page scroll bottom of the page mac n1055a --part1_104.2ac92b46.2baf7075_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 14:09:43 EST To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: SkyVisionSC@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> A day at the Airplane Factory Message-ID: <1ca.5c5638f.2baf6077@aol.com> --part1_1ca.5c5638f.2baf6077_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello... I am considering a KR2 that has been in a garage for a few years, but I know that it will need new wings, and an elevator (trim side). The turbo'd Veedub runs great and the bird is full IFR with an impressive panel but I need to talk with someone that would be willing to advise me. Anyone please...give me a shout!! Sherman Swofford Spartanburg, S.C. (864)-585-3327 or (864)-949-9736 E-mail: skyvisionsc@aol.com --part1_1ca.5c5638f.2baf6077_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 13:30:30 -0600 To: From: "Mark Langford" Subject: "KRNetiquette" Message-ID: <016601c2f172$b0f18820$1202a8c0@basement> KRnetHeads, I've been asked by several folks to send out the official KRNet "KRNetiquette" diatribe again, since it's been 6 months since I last submitted it. Not changing the subject, not deleting miles of text during replies, and useless chit-chat comments, do nothing to help others navigate their way around the KR information that is so abundant here. I've added a few new things, and posted it to a web page, which also incorporates directions on how to subscribe, unsubscribe, and access the KRNet search engine and archives. It's located at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html , and also replaces several lines of stuff that formerly appeared at the bottom of most (non-html) messages from the list. This is another defense mechanism on my part, as I'm tired of seeing these 6 lines of text repeated 5 or 6 times in posts where the posters neglected to delete it. Of course, now there will be even more people wondering how to un-subscribe! I'm on one list where the moderator has a list of "rules" that he expects participants to abide by. Offenders are promptly and publicly pointed to "rule number 4", or "rule number 9". I don't really want to do that, but the rest of you are welcome to privately point offenders to this web site and the appropriate rule number. There are several folks who will (and have) ignore these requests, and for those, I ask that you let me know and I'll deal with it, one way or another. Maybe 5 or 10 gentle "reminders" from other KRnetters will have the desired effect. Thanks for your cooperation... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 15:24:01 EST To: KRnet@mailinglists.org From: Jumpnkd@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> Langford paint Message-ID: --part1_b4.1a518836.2baf71e1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am a painter as well, auto and house and I have done all the things they say you shouldn't do like mixing brands and some times it works and some times it doesn't. But the idea of putting clear over the primer is a good one and to try it do a test panel and set it out in the weather and see what happends. as long as the primer is fully cured and sanded it should work try it let us know. Yours Bill White "Friends are like parachutes. If they aren't there the first time you need them, chances are, you won't be needing them again" ~~Astronaut James A Lovell Jr --part1_b4.1a518836.2baf71e1_boundary-- ------------------------------ End of krnet Digest ***********************************