Received: from [66.113.66.18] by bou2100 (ArGoSoft Mail Server Freeware, Version 1.70 (1.7.0.3)); Fri, 2 May 2003 12:04:19 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lizard.esosoft.net) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19BflK-000EJM-00; Fri, 02 May 2003 12:00:02 -0700 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8312787201353331==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: krnet-request@mylist.net Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 23, Issue 1 To: krnet@mylist.net X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Sender: krnet-bounces@mylist.net Errors-To: krnet-bounces@mylist.net Message-Id: Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 12:00:02 -0700 --===============8312787201353331== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: KRnet Digest, Vol 23, Issue 1 Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." --===============8312787201353331== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Today's Topics (8 messages) Today's Topics: 1. Re: Vacuum Source (Iglesias) 2. RE: Reattack on WAF's, and Antenna website (Ron Freiberger) 3. RE: Reattack on WAF's, and Antenna website (Ron Eason) 4. RE: Reattack on WAF's, and Antenna website (Dana Overall) 5. Re: Reattack on WAF's, and Antenna website (Steven Eberhart) 6. Re: Reattack on WAF's, and Antenna website (Mark Langford) 7. Re: Reattack on WAF's (Tracy & Carol O'Brien) 8. Re: Inspection access to WAF's (Scott Cable) --===============8312787201353331== Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="===============9966564414578809==" MIME-Version: 1.0 --===============9966564414578809== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 00:55:25 -0300 From: "Iglesias" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>Vacuum Source Message-ID: <001001c3104e$4fadf580$07bc3fc8@iglesias> References: <002801c30d9d$67201c10$05462141@Beverly> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Message: 1 There is a vacum system (pump) in all diesel motors. Canīt use it? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin" To: Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 12:46 PM Subject: KR>Vacuum Source Not to be presumptious, but it has been my experience that the exhaust pilses from an engine especially at the lower rpms, will not be sufficient in volume or steady enough to support more than one instrument with regular vacuum. The best solution short of a vacuum pump, would be to either install an emissions air pump with a belt drive and reverse the connections to create suction, or use a vacuum venturi and mount it inside the cowling just behind one head so that heated air flows through it, as well as getting a prime of vauum from the prop wash through the engine compartment/cowling. This should provide adequate vacuum for initial spin-up of the instruments, and also guard against icing if inadvertant IMC is encountered. All tend to agree that the whole configuration and purpose of the KR2, or KR1 is VFR only, but the insurance would be nice. When I flew the Cessna 172RG, and the Beech Duchess's they have their carb intake air drawn from behind the left hand head, and then ducted down to a side draft carb below the oil pan. This layout allowed us to basically never have to use carb heat in any flight condition due to the already pre-warmed air, even after simulated emergency descents, etc... The should be adequate heat to prevent the venturi from icing. If I add a vacuum system on mine, this is where I intend to add the venturi. It will also keep it from adding drag to the exterior. Colin Rainey crainey1@cfl.rr.com Sanford, Florida FLY SAFE!!!!_______________________________________________ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] --===============9966564414578809== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 22:08:42 -0400 From: "Ron Freiberger" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: RE: KR>Reattack on WAF's, and Antenna website Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002e01c31008$9f26aa80$90780c44@ok.cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 2 Mark Wrote; So, my point is, no matter how you make the holes in your WAF's, whether it be waterjet, laser cutting, drilling, or shooting a bullet through them, there is no reason to worry about the heat affected zone, or losing the heat treatment. By setting these on your workbench when you are done making a hole and waiting a bit, you have effectively normalized the part.. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This isn't right. If you local heat the part and it cools quickly by conducting heat away from the localized zone, it will be brittle. If you heat the entire part and let it cool slowly, it will be near the normalized condition, but slightly softer. Normalizing is a careful process. The material can be heat treated to stronger than normalized condition. Normally, gas welding as fuselage will give softer condition near the joint, but that's OK, 'cause the bending moments are usually out in the middle, 4130 is a very versatile material, but casual handling yields casual results. Ron Freiberger .. EAA Tech Counselor 4125 mailto: rfreiberger@swfla.rr.com -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Mark Youkey Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 1:40 PM To: KR Subject: KR>Reattack on WAF's, and Antenna website The previous discussion a few weeks ago about WAFs, and laser cutting, heat treating, etc, didn't set well with me. So today I finally found out why. As it turns out, 4130 steel air normalizes. That means that if you heat it up, and then just let it sit out to cool down, you have returned it to a normalized state, and have done the heat-treating yourself. No wonder it's a cheap process....but paying for that at all sounds like you are overpaying. So, my point is, no matter how you make the holes in your WAF's, whether it be waterjet, laser cutting, drilling, or shooting a bullet through them, there is no reason to worry about the heat affected zone, or losing the heat treatment. By setting these on your workbench when you are done making a hole and waiting a bit, you have effectively normalized the part.....and done it cheaply. Nice, huh? Just don't throw water or oil on it...that will screw up the cooling speed and give you potentially unwanted results--hence "Air Normalize" Here's a good website that talks about 4130 steel. http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/4130.htm http://www.eaa1000.av.org has links on it to great pages, including "Technical Articles" where I found the steel article. As promised in my subject line, http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/antennae.htm is a good article on antenna installation. Hope this helps. Whoever out there is a member of Chapter 1000, great website. Mark Youkey myoukey@cox.net Okalhoma City_______________________________________________ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html --===============9966564414578809== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 04:55:53 -0700 From: "Ron Eason" To: , KR builders and pilots Subject: RE: KR>Reattack on WAF's, and Antenna website Message-ID: <200305020455.AA1882390846@jrl-engineering.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 3 Cooling metal in the open air has a limit to the rate of cooling and for this material its slower than the rate to make it brittle. Ron ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Ron Freiberger" Reply-To: rfreiberger@swfla.rr.com, KR builders and pilots Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 22:08:42 -0400 >Mark Wrote; >So, my point is, no matter how you make the holes in your WAF's, whether it >be waterjet, laser cutting, drilling, or shooting a bullet through them, >there is no reason to worry about the heat affected zone, or losing the heat >treatment. By setting these on your workbench when you are done making a >hole and waiting a bit, you have effectively normalized the part.. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >This isn't right. If you local heat the part and it cools quickly by >conducting heat away from the localized zone, it will be brittle. If you >heat the entire part and let it cool slowly, it will be near the normalized >condition, but slightly softer. Normalizing is a careful process. The >material can be heat treated to stronger than normalized condition. >Normally, gas welding as fuselage will give softer condition near the joint, >but that's OK, 'cause the bending moments are usually out in the middle, >4130 is a very versatile material, but casual handling yields casual >results. > > >Ron Freiberger .. EAA Tech Counselor 4125 >mailto: rfreiberger@swfla.rr.com > >-----Original Message----- >From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of >Mark Youkey >Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 1:40 PM >To: KR >Subject: KR>Reattack on WAF's, and Antenna website > >The previous discussion a few weeks ago about WAFs, and laser cutting, heat >treating, etc, didn't set well with me. So today I finally found out why. >As it turns out, 4130 steel air normalizes. That means that if you heat it >up, and then just let it sit out to cool down, you have returned it to a >normalized state, and have done the heat-treating yourself. No wonder it's >a cheap process....but paying for that at all sounds like you are >overpaying. > >So, my point is, no matter how you make the holes in your WAF's, whether it >be waterjet, laser cutting, drilling, or shooting a bullet through them, >there is no reason to worry about the heat affected zone, or losing the heat >treatment. By setting these on your workbench when you are done making a >hole and waiting a bit, you have effectively normalized the part.....and >done it cheaply. Nice, huh? Just don't throw water or oil on it...that >will screw up the cooling speed and give you potentially unwanted >results--hence "Air Normalize" > >Here's a good website that talks about 4130 steel. >http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/4130.htm > >http://www.eaa1000.av.org has links on it to great pages, including >"Technical Articles" where I found the steel article. > >As promised in my subject line, >http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/antennae.htm is a good article on antenna >installation. Hope this helps. > >Whoever out there is a member of Chapter 1000, great website. > >Mark Youkey >myoukey@cox.net >Okalhoma City_______________________________________________ >see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > >_______________________________________________ >see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > -- Ronald R. Eason Sr. Pres. & CEO, KCMO Office J.R.L. Engineering Consortium Ltd. 816-468-4091, Kansas City, MO. Jim Eason V.P, 770-446-1291, Atlanta, Georgia Web Page: www.jrl-engineering.com -- --===============9966564414578809== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 08:46:07 -0400 From: "Dana Overall" To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: RE: KR>Reattack on WAF's, and Antenna website Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 4 > >Mark Wrote; > >So, my point is, no matter how you make the holes in your WAF's, whether >it > >be waterjet, laser cutting, drilling, or shooting a bullet through them, > >there is no reason to worry about the heat affected zone, or losing the >heat > >treatment Mark, and others, would you be willing to bet your life......but more so, the life of others on this list who follow this shortcut that you say works. Think about what a little "extra" care (in the eyes of some) will get you. If money, over safety, is the factor in making decisions, don't build an airplane. Not arguing, just food for thought. Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --===============9966564414578809== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 08:43:23 -0500 From: Steven Eberhart To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>Reattack on WAF's, and Antenna website Message-ID: <3EB275FB.6070301@newtech.com> References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 5 I have been following this thread and swore I wouldn't get into it. Oh well, I have never been one to sit on the sidelines. I have no qualifications what so ever to base this on but that doesn't seem to be stopping anyone else. As I understand what is being said, you can heat a piece of 4130 and let it return to room temp at a controlled rate it will be in a normalized state but if you cool it too quickly it will tend to get brittle. Wouldn't laser cutting heat the metal in the vicinity of the cut and not affect the surrounding metal very much? Wouldn't the mass of of the part act as a heat sink to cool the heated area more rapidly? Would the rate of cooling be beyond the point where the metal would start getting brittle? What are the characteristics of a part that has a brittle area around the edge of a hole? Wouldn't this tend to facilitate the start of a crack? I don't know the answers and I bet most of the posters to this thread don't either. If it were me I would track down an engineer with experience in this area. Steve Eberhart Just a whole lot of aluminum sitting out in the garage that will eventually have the tail number N14SE and go real fast Dana Overall wrote: >> >Mark Wrote; >> >So, my point is, no matter how you make the holes in your WAF's, >> whether it >> >be waterjet, laser cutting, drilling, or shooting a bullet through them, >> >there is no reason to worry about the heat affected zone, or losing >> the heat >> >treatment > > > Mark, and others, would you be willing to bet your life......but more > so, the life of others on this list who follow this shortcut that you > say works. Think about what a little "extra" care (in the eyes of > some) will get you. If money, over safety, is the factor in making > decisions, don't build an airplane. > > Not arguing, just food for thought. > > > > > Dana Overall > Richmond, KY > RV-7 slider/fuselage > http://rvflying.tripod.com > do not archive > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > --===============9966564414578809== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 10:00:07 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>Reattack on WAF's, and Antenna website Message-ID: <013401c310bb$85d42ef0$5e0ca58c@tbe.com> References: <3EB275FB.6070301@newtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 6 Steve Eberhart wrote: > I don't know the answers and I bet most of the posters to this thread > don't either. If it were me I would track down an engineer with > experience in this area. Well, you know me. I have no qualms about bothering other people to find out what I want to know, so I took you up on your advice and called an engineer whose job at Benedict Miler is nothing but heat treatment of stuff like 4130 for aircraft applications. I explained exactly what we were dealing with, laser cutting normalized 4130, 1/8" thick, and ambient air cooled, with a 3/8" bolt hole holding your wings on. He said "well it really depends on your exact application and the loads involved". So I said "let's just assume that what we're after is the normalized condition after laser cutting, would it be more likely to crack at the bolt hole after having been air-cooled?". He said "well, I couldn't really say, and I'm not about to tell you, that you wouldn't get any cracks, but it would be less likely than if you plasma cut or flame cut them". He said "you probablly wouldn't have a problem, but if you want to make absolutely sure you'd want to re-normalize them". I guess it's like Dana said, it all depends on how absolutely sure you want to be that your wing attach fittings aren't going to crack, as to whether or not you spend the extra effort to normalize them after laser cutting. Like I said before, the guys that manufactured TET's WAFs (and other certified aircraft fittings) said we should do it, and we did. But you can do whatever you're comfortable with, and will "probably" get away with it... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford --===============9966564414578809== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 08:28:17 -0700 From: Tracy & Carol O'Brien To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>Reattack on WAF's Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20030502082817.00860840@localaccess.com> In-Reply-To: <3EB275FB.6070301@newtech.com> References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 7 Netters, Since I've been making and selling chromoly aircraft parts for a number of years, I'd like to weigh in on this discussion: My experience with laser cut chromoly parts is that the cutting process leaves an area of hardness near the cut that can only be cut with carbide tools. (I learned this by destroying a new HSS "F" reamer on the 1st hole). The thickness of the material affects the depth of the heat affected zone: the thicker the steel, the further the hardness extends from the edge of the cut. (On 1/4" plate, about .040 from the edge of the cut will be hard). On a batch of axle base plates I had laser cut, I found the heat affected zone so difficult a problem that I sent the plates out for heat treatment before I continued with the machine work. (The center hole in the base plates has to be bored for a press fit with the axle tube and the laser cut surface was so hard my carbide boring bar was bouncing off!) I have gone back to fabricating my axle base plates in-house. I rough them out on a 7" x 12" metal cutting band saw that has flood cooling, then mill them square. The bolt pattern holes are drilled using a drill fixture and the large center holes are bored on the lathe. The axle tubes (7/8" x .190 wall chromoly) are pressed in and then TIG welded. The axle blanks are heat treated to RC 30-34 prior to machining the bearing journals and threading the ends. The threading is done on the lathe. If I was going to make up a set of WAF's one-off, I would have them water jet cut with the bolt holes about .010 undersize and then ream the holes to size. If I were to do a production run of WAF's and wanted to have them laser cut, I'd have all the holes cut .010 under, heat treat the blanks to RC 30-34, ream all the holes to size (including the lightening holes), dress the long edges on my stationary belt sander, and then tumble them! Note: at RC 30-34, you can use HSS reamers and counter sinks, carbide tools are not required. 4130 in the "N" condition has a tensile strength of about 90,000 psi; at RC 30-34 it will have a tensile of 130,000 to 140,000 psi and still be ductile enough to be bent to shape. (That's a 50% increase in strength!) Regards, Tracy O'Brien www.tracyobrien.com --===============9966564414578809== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 08:50:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Cable To: Mark Langford , KR builders and pilots Subject: KR>Re: Inspection access to WAF's Message-ID: <20030502155041.47080.qmail@web40804.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <013401c310bb$85d42ef0$5e0ca58c@tbe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 8 Regardless of the fact that if you choose to or choose not to normalize your WAF's, doesn't mean that you should just install them and forget 'em. Cracks propigate over time and use (load), and since the WAF's are a highly loaded part, don't forget to provide access panels to enable frequent inspection. Mark Langford wrote: Like I said before, the guys that manufactured TET's WAFs (and other certified aircraft fittings) said we should do it, and we did. But you can do whatever you're comfortable with, and will "probably" get away with it... Scott Cable KR-2S # 735 Linden, MI s2cable1@yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --===============9966564414578809==-- --===============8312787201353331== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html --===============8312787201353331==--