Received: from [66.113.66.18] by bou2100 (ArGoSoft Mail Server Freeware, Version 1.70 (1.7.0.3)); Sun, 4 May 2003 12:04:55 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lizard.esosoft.net) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19COiQ-0000jD-00; Sun, 04 May 2003 12:00:02 -0700 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============71684568583703534==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: krnet-request@mylist.net Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 25, Issue 1 To: krnet@mylist.net X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Sender: krnet-bounces@mylist.net Errors-To: krnet-bounces@mylist.net Message-Id: Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 12:00:02 -0700 --===============71684568583703534== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: KRnet Digest, Vol 25, Issue 1 Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." --===============71684568583703534== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Today's Topics (10 messages) Today's Topics: 1. shipping Epoxy by UPS (Darren Pond) 2. Re: shipping Epoxy by UPS (Dan Heath) 3. Re: liability (Mark Youkey) 4. Re: Sale- Landing gear and Chute (robert glidden) 5. Re: liability (Ron Eason) 6. Re: liability (Dana Overall) 7. Re: liability (Dana Overall) 8. FAQ Available? (Russ Evans) 9. Re: FAQ Available? (Mark Jones) 10. Re: FAQ Available? (Rick Wilson) --===============71684568583703534== Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="===============64805236064037852==" MIME-Version: 1.0 --===============64805236064037852== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 20:05:12 -0400 From: "Darren Pond" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: KR>shipping Epoxy by UPS Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <09fe01c31125$28c38430$1202a8c0@basement> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 1 Can any one tell me if there is any reasons I can't ship a plastic bottle of epoxy by ground UPS across the US Canadian boarder? Darren P --===============64805236064037852== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 20:21:37 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "Dan Heath" To: Subject: Re: KR>shipping Epoxy by UPS Message-ID: <3EB48741.000001.01260@dan> References: Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 2 Darren,=0D =0D You should ask UPS. But, I don't think there should be a problem unless = it is classified as HAZ MAT. =0D =0D N64KR=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Red Oak - 2003=0D =0D See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic=0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20From jmw116@socal.rr.com Sat May 03 17:37:31 2003 Received: from orngca-mls03.socal.rr.com ([66.75.160.18]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19C7VT-000Mu6-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Sat, 03 May 2003 17:37:31 -0700 Received: from computer (cpe-24-24-216-131.socal.rr.com [24.24.216.131]) by orngca-mls03.socal.rr.com (8.11.4/8.11.3) with SMTP id h440bqR14718 for ; Sat, 3 May 2003 17:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000b01c311d5$65582e90$83d81818@computer> From: "Justin" To: "KR builders and pilots" References: <3EB48741.000001.01260@dan> Subject: Re: KR>shipping Epoxy by UPS Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 19:37:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: You can send it GROUND but not air. When your order it via AS/S they make you send it by ground only. That may only be so for the fiberglass resign but I ordered mine all ground due to price. Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Heath" To: Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 10:21 PM Subject: Re: KR>shipping Epoxy by UPS Darren, You should ask UPS. But, I don't think there should be a problem unless it is classified as HAZ MAT. N64KR Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC DanRH@KR-Builder.org See you in Red Oak - 2003 See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org _______________________________________________ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html --===============64805236064037852== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 19:52:56 -0500 From: "Mark Youkey" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>liability Message-ID: <003801c311d7$80a2ce60$90780c44@ok.cox.net> References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 3 The real problem is no one takes responsiblity for any of their actions or words.... But don't quote me on that. Mark Youkey myoukey@cox.net Okalhoma City ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dana Overall" To: Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 11:36 AM Subject: Re: KR>liability > > >: Our biggest problem isn't terrorism. In my opinion > >it's an economy stifled by many factors, one of the biggest being the fear > >of frivolous lawsuits > > Boy, I sure am glad I don't practice thereby becoming a real bottom > dweller:-) I guess you could say I'm a deep water lurker though. > Now, why don't I practice with a JD............go pull out your yeller' > pages and count the number of attorneys listed, now go the the Certified > Public Accountant section and count those.........now look at the rest of > the yellow pages at all the companies that need CPAs........I rest my > case:-) > > The article posted is very well written and points out some things I wasn't > aware of in regards to this issue. However, after all the fluff the > negligence issue still raises it's ugly head. > > Did you hear the one about the attorney running for public office missing > church............(boy, that ought to hit all the sore points:-) > > > > Dana Overall > Richmond, KY > RV-7 slider/fuselage > http://rvflying.tripod.com > do not archive > > > > > > . > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html --===============64805236064037852== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 20:27:49 -0500 From: "robert glidden" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>Sale- Landing gear and Chute Message-ID: <00ab01c311dc$5ff561a0$0c00000a@glidden> References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 4 what type landing gear is it??? ----- Original Message ----- From: "WILLIAM HUNTLEY" To: Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 10:10 AM Subject: KR>Sale- Landing gear and Chute > BRS chute and complete landing gear, brakes,hyd. and tires. New,Uninstalled > Make A Offer > E-mail for specs > Bill Huntley 906-864-0347 I can accept a credit card _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > --===============64805236064037852== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 21:30:14 -0500 From: "Ron Eason" To: "Mark Langford" , "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>liability Message-ID: <003c01c311e5$18587860$6501a8c0@Administration> References: <3EB3F1A0.000001.01260@dan> <004601c3117f$7942de10$2402a8c0@800Athlon> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 5 It all boils down to greed. Legalized Plunder happens when Lawyers make the laws, money rules and who ever has the most wins. Where is justice? I don't know. It's a jungle out their for the honest businesses. Tort Laws must change before our economy can truly get better. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Langford" To: "KR builders and pilots" Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 9:22 AM Subject: Re: KR>liability > Dan Heath wrote: > > > This is the scourge of our society and will be our downfall. > > I agree wholeheartedly. Our biggest problem isn't terrorism. In my opinion > it's an economy stifled by many factors, one of the biggest being the fear > of frivolous lawsuits. > > I just spent almost 2 years designing a portable waterjet cutter designed to > cut into "hazardous threats", meaning anything from truck bombs, missile > casings, warheads, chemical tanker railroad cars, or even cutting accident > victims out of their crumpled vehicles. We built a prototype, and have > spent over a year in testing, and then traveled the country demonstrating > it. We built our first production model for NYPD, and now that it's time to > deliver it, our company is getting cold feet. What happens if the unit > malfunctions and fails to disable a bomb in Manhattan in time, and the > resulting explosion ends up looking like ground zero? Then we get sued by > the families of 500 victims and the company goes bankrupt. Not acceptable! > The solution...don't sell it in the first place. Millions of dollars down > the drain. > > I guess I shouldn't complain...it paid my salary for two years, and it was > really interesting work, but it just irritates me to no end to have put that > much effort into something that's now been shelved due to the fear of a > frivolous, groundless lawsuit. > > The problem is that nobody's reponsible for their own actions or decisions > anymore. And stuff doesn't "just happen" either. We live in a society > where when something negative occurs, it's somebody else's fault, and the > first place you look to place the blame is wherever the biggest pot of money > lies. My father's been sued twice for a million dollars each time. They > were both so rediculous it'd make you cry, but it cost him a year of > sleepless nights, and well over $40,000 to defend himself, even though both > suits were groundless. Sore subject, I guess. Sorry about the rant... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL > mailto:langford@hiwaay.net > see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > --===============64805236064037852== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 07:54:21 -0400 From: "Dana Overall" To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>liability Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 6 >From: "Ron Eason" >It all boils down to greed. Sometimes we may think that but, the courts themselves take a very dim view of frivolous lawsuits and offer one who has been the victim of such, recourse of triple damages for just such actions. There are bad engineers, bad accountants, bad attorneys, bad auto repair techs, bad computer design techs., bad doctors, bad insurance salesmen but these bad apples do not make the entire professions evil. There is a need for good engineers, good accountants, good attorneys, good auto repair, good computer design, good doctors and yes, even good insurance salesmen. Tort reform happens every day in the courtroom but to assert that it is somehow tied to the livelihood of the economy may just be grasping at straws. Economic opinion is one thing, economic reality is another. Do some companies, such as Mark's, suffer from liability exposure in making business decisions.....yes, is it unfortunate, yes. Is there a place for recovery, yes. Let's get back to the original thread before some toes get stepped on. I think Larry's original instance was someone sitting at the dinner table when an experimental airplane, you just sold to someone, comes crashing into the house. Were these people responsible for little Sally losing a limb and the death of her mother? I would sure hope that one would not think so. The pilot says nothing because he is dead, he signed an exculpatory agreement, his wife says he knew nothing about homebuilt airplanes and said he sure liked the looks of that wooden prop.....that came apart in flight.....the same one you made using an article from EAA but didn't conform to industry standards. Was there negligence? The surviving wife thinks so, the surviving husband thinks so, you don't think so. We have talked about no one wanting to take responsibility for their actions....who wants to step up and raise their hand now without a fight? I'm going to really, really, really stay out of any further comments, now and in the future, on this liability issue after seeing where this is going. Please, please do not take this post as jab at any comments. It is not meant so, so do not allow it to become a reflection. I do not practice law, and have went too far in explaining some points in this discussion. I cannot, and will not, extend opinions as to personnal interpretations of legal issues for those on this list. Like I said, no more legal responses from me on any issues raised here. Too many toes, too big of shoes. Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --===============64805236064037852== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 09:48:53 -0400 From: "Dana Overall" To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>liability Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 7 I said that was going to be my last post on any and all issues of this thread but I left something out of my original post. I drafted the accident with very careful wording to relate the issues to the article reference by Brian. The buyer was not an experienced home builder.......were the seller and buyer then "in an equal bargaining position" thereby making the excultatory agreement not just voidable but void? The husband died in the crash, as per the reference article the author states, "Most states will not allow a spouse to sign away their husband's or wife's right to sue for wrongful death". Does the exculpatory agreement void the surviving spouse's right to sue? The techniques used by you in the prop construction was based on one article posted by EAA, which did not conform to a slightly more prudent level of construction well documented by numerous other articles on the subject which would have been available to the builder. The builder in this case, made a financial decision which dictated the level of quality. If negligence is claimed, I quote the article once again, "Many courts will not honor these agreements if the negligent actions of a party also constitute violations of law, because while a private party may agree to release you from your own negligence, the courts have an interest in penalizing violations of the law". As you can see, my very short, but concise, discription surrounding a fictional airplance crash raise several important issues. The scope of this is very, very narrow. Once again, this is it for me. I should have known, whenever this type of discussion takes place, it will always revert from issues intended for discussion, to an umbrella discussion of the wrongs of the system. I have been very, very careful in not dispensing advice. I have merely pointed out issues to be considered and pointing out sink holes one may fall into. The article is only 13 pages longs covering an issue so vitally important to anyone considering a leap into this venue. In not dispencing advice, my points do not constitute legal advice and cannot be relied upon by those privy to such. As the article says, "Anyone with an aviation law problem should be guided by the advice of his or her lawyer, under applicable federal and state laws, after a FULL and confidential DISCLOSURE OF ALL RELEVANT FACTS". This is truly the end of the line for me in discussing legal issues, of any form, from here on out. Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive > _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --===============64805236064037852== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 12:08:10 -0400 From: "Russ Evans" To: Subject: KR>FAQ Available? Message-ID: <001201c31257$5bb52a00$58fea8c0@homer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 8 Please forgive if I've missed something obvious. I'm looking for a KR 'FAQ' so that I don't post the same old questions and annoy the list members. I'm trying to decide what homebuilt project to start, if any. The KR2S looks like a fast, economical design. I'd like to find further info such as average cost and time to complete. Also, at 6'1" and 240, many of the small fast designs won't quite wrap around me comfortably. I'm happy to read the FAQs before posting further if someone can point me to it. Thanks in advance, Russ Evans Student pilot and bewildered aspiring homebuilder --===============64805236064037852== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 11:37:24 -0500 From: "Mark Jones" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>FAQ Available? Message-ID: <001f01c3125b$712b68a0$6401a8c0@wi.rr.com> References: <001201c31257$5bb52a00$58fea8c0@homer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 9 Hi Russ The KR-2S can be modified to comfortably fit your physique. You and I are the exact same size and take a look at my web site posted under my name below. I am more comfortable sitting in my 2S than I am in a Cessna 152. I have widened the fuselage and lengthened the leg room a couple inches. That is the beauty of the KR....you can easily modify it to accommodate your personal needs. Time to build depends on you. Kr's have been built in less than a year and some take a lifetime to build. Cost also depends on what you want in your plane. I have a total of ten thousand in mine including the engine and I expect another couple thousand will be invested before she is ready to fly. That is a lot of bang for your buck. Do not be afraid to ask any questions on this list. There are many well versed builders and flyers to help. Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html From: "Russ Evans" I'd like to find further info such as > average cost and time to complete. Also, at 6'1" and 240, many of the small > fast designs won't quite wrap around me comfortably. > Thanks in advance, > Russ Evans > Student pilot and bewildered aspiring homebuilder > > > --===============64805236064037852== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 11:37:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Wilson To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>FAQ Available? Message-ID: <20030504183753.35547.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <001201c31257$5bb52a00$58fea8c0@homer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 10 Hi Russ, You can go to the krnet website and scroll down past the list of projects and completed aircraft, there is a link to frequently asked questions there. Hope this helps, Rick Wilson. rwdw2002@yahoo.com --- Russ Evans wrote: > Please forgive if I've missed something obvious. I'm > looking for a KR 'FAQ' > so that I don't post the same old questions and > annoy the list members. I'm > trying to decide what homebuilt project to start, if > any. The KR2S looks > like a fast, economical design. I'd like to find > further info such as > average cost and time to complete. Also, at 6'1" and > 240, many of the small > fast designs won't quite wrap around me comfortably. > I'm happy to read the > FAQs before posting further if someone can point me > to it. > > Thanks in advance, > Russ Evans > Student pilot and bewildered aspiring homebuilder > > > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --===============64805236064037852==-- --===============71684568583703534== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html --===============71684568583703534==--