Received: from [66.113.66.18] by bou2100 (ArGoSoft Mail Server Freeware, Version 1.70 (1.7.0.3)); Thu, 29 May 2003 12:09:07 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lizard.esosoft.net) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19LSd9-0005f1-01; Thu, 29 May 2003 12:00:03 -0700 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============78232937759993737==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: krnet-request@mylist.net Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 50, Issue 1 To: krnet@mylist.net X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Sender: krnet-bounces@mylist.net Errors-To: krnet-bounces@mylist.net Message-Id: Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 12:00:03 -0700 --===============78232937759993737== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: KRnet Digest, Vol 50, Issue 1 Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." --===============78232937759993737== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Today's Topics (4 messages) Today's Topics: 1. stick bias (Mark Langford) 2. Dual stick 3. Re: stick bias (ace nunye) 4. Re: stick bias (Mark Langford) --===============78232937759993737== Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="===============68638449427318671==" MIME-Version: 1.0 --===============68638449427318671== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 22:05:35 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: KR>stick bias Message-ID: <004f01c3258f$2ccb7c30$1202a8c0@basement> References: <009201c324b0$f6b559b0$5e0ca58c@tbe.com><008001c324ba$a4defce0$6401a8c0@wi.rr.com><3ED424EA.7030203@newtech.com> <000701c324c8$c55ad7b0$6401a8c0@Administration> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 1 I wrote: >>"I wonder how many KRs have their elevators "biased" by the aileron cables, and are trimmed out to compensate? I'll bet this is a major reason why some KRs are fast, and others are "not so fast"... << What I meant is that the way the stock KR stick setup is constructed, the tension on the aileron cable pulls the bottom of the stick in line with the axis of the cable. Now if the elevator isn't in line with the horizontal stabilizer when the aileron cable is taut, it's "biased" one way or the other, and some force will be exerted on the elevator cable by the aileron cable, as odd as that seems. That's fine if your elevator needed to be biased to be trimmed properly, but chances are slim that the bias will be in the correct direction or amount, especially given the highly "mobile" CG of the KR with header tank and no wing tanks, not to mention passenger. Now you're flying "out of trim", and your trim tab will be called upon to correct. Now you've got unnecessary drag, lower top speed, lower fuel consumption, lower range, etc. Oddly enough, if you were the optimistic type, you would wonder if this "self centering" tension on the elevator wouldn't help tighten up the light elevator stick forces. If you played your cards right, you might could use it to your advantage, IF the elevator ended up trimmed perfectly for whatever passes for your normal cruise condition. Once again, it all boils down to whether or not you're paying attention to the details, or just slapping a plane together so you can get flying. That's why I'm still working on mine. I revel in the details... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL N56ML "at" hiwaay.net see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford --===============68638449427318671== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 08:13:25 -0400 From: To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>Dual stick Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Message: 2 OK Mark, I have to decide what set up I'm going to use for the dual stick. Your dual stick looks complicated but it also looks like it will work perfect. Question is using the plans built configuration for the rest of the hardware will your stick retrofit? How can I get a drawing so to build it. Steven Phillabaum skphil@charter.net Auburn, Alabama --===============68638449427318671== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 09:21:27 -0400 From: "ace nunye" To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>stick bias Message-ID: Content-Type: text/html MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 3

mark & kr heads,

                             If the elevator cable terminates at the forward end on a bellcrank, seems like the tension issue is settled, now the bias , there should be a way to isolate the fore n aft stick inputs from the side to side movements between stick n  (forward elevator bellcrank), this would fix the bias issue,  I mean all we are after is to isolate the two inputs from one another. Right ?

>From: "Mark Langford"
>Reply-To: KR builders and pilots
>To: "KR builders and pilots"
>Subject: KR>stick bias
>Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 22:05:35 -0500
>
>I wrote:
>
> >>"I wonder how many KRs have their elevators "biased" by the aileron
>cables, and are trimmed out to compensate? I'll bet this is a major reason
>why some KRs are fast, and others are "not so fast"... <<
>
>What I meant is that the way the stock KR stick setup is constructed, the
>tension on the aileron cable pulls the bottom of the stick in line with the
>axis of the cable. Now if the elevator isn't in line with the horizontal
>stabilizer when the aileron cable is taut, it's "biased" one way or the
>other, and some force will be exerted on the elevator cable by the aileron
>cable, as odd as that seems. That's fine if your elevator needed to be
>biased to be trimmed properly, but chances are slim that the bias will be in
>the correct direction or amount, especially given the highly "mobile" CG of
>the KR with header tank and no wing tanks, not to mention passenger. Now
>you're flying "out of trim", and your trim tab will be called upon to
>correct. Now you've got unnecessary drag, lower top speed, lower fuel
>consumption, lower range, etc.
>
>Oddly enough, if you were the optimistic type, you would wonder if this
>"self centering" tension on the elevator wouldn't help tighten up the light
>elevator stick forces. If you played your cards right, you might could use
>it to your advantage, IF the elevator ended up trimmed perfectly for
>whatever passes for your normal cruise condition. Once again, it all boils
>down to whether or not you're paying attention to the details, or just
>slapping a plane together so you can get flying. That's why I'm still
>working on mine. I revel in the details...
>
>Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL
>N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
>see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html


MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* --===============68638449427318671== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 09:07:15 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>stick bias Message-ID: <010701c325eb$9bfce3d0$5e0ca58c@tbe.com> References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0104_01C325C1.B2EDA360" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 4 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0104_01C325C1.B2EDA360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ace nunye wrote: >> If the elevator cable terminates at the forward end on a bellcrank, = seems like the tension issue is settled, now the bias , there should be = a way to isolate the fore n aft stick inputs from the side to side = movements between stick n (forward elevator bellcrank), this would fix = the bias issue, I mean all we are after is to isolate the two inputs = from one another. Right ?<< Well, my point was if you build it by the plans (and everybody knows how = important that is to me), you'll make the STICK the termination (and = pivot) point for the elevator cables. Kind of hard to isolate the two = when four cables are connected directly to the bottom of the stick. As for the solution, theres one of 'em at = http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kcontrol.html#update , and there are = lots of others. Rigging a stick to work properly was solved about 80 = years ago, about the same time the KR's airfoil was designed... =20 Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL N56ML at hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0104_01C325C1.B2EDA360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    ace nunye wrote:
 
>> If the elevator cable terminates at the forward end = on a=20 bellcrank, seems like the tension issue is settled, now the bias , there = should=20 be a way to isolate the fore n aft stick inputs from the side to side = movements=20 between stick n  (forward elevator bellcrank), this would fix the = bias=20 issue,  I mean all we are after is to isolate the two inputs from = one=20 another. Right ?<<
 
Well, my point was if you build it by = the plans=20 (and everybody knows how important that is to me), you'll make the STICK = the=20 termination (and pivot) point for the elevator cables.  Kind of = hard to=20 isolate the two when four cables are connected directly to the bottom of = the=20 stick.
 
As for the solution, theres one of = 'em at http://hom= e.hiwaay.net/~langford/kcontrol.html#update ,=20 and there are lots of others.  Rigging a stick to work=20 properly was solved about 80 years ago, about the same time the = KR's=20 airfoil was designed... 
 
Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL
N56ML at hiwaay.net
see KR2S = project=20 N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langfor= d
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