From: To: Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 56, Issue 1 Date: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 4:45 AM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. RE: Aluminum wing tanks (Mark Jones) 2. RE: aluminum wing tanks (Mark Jones) 3. Re: it's something to do with the elevators (Dan Heath) 4. Re: problems with KRnet? Agree with Mark Jones (jim wogaman) 5. Aluminum tanks cost!!! (Mark Jones) 6. List (Patrick Driscoll) 7. Re: List 8. RE: it's something to do with the elevators (Ron Freiberger) 9. Gettng Better 10. My appologies. 11. Re: Aluminum tanks cost!!! (Mark Jones) 12. KR2 Stall speed 13. Work Table (Curtis Chance) 14. Re: it's something to do with the elevators (lloyd schultz) 15. Re: gussets (Louis Staalberg) 16. Re: it's something to do with the elevators (lloyd schultz) 17. Re: it's something to do with the elevators (Mark Langford) 18. Re: KR2SPort (Dan Heath) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 14:47:11 -0500 From: Mark Jones To: 'KR builders and pilots' Subject: RE: KR>Aluminum wing tanks Message-ID: <370D915E4564D611B0530050DABB9FC25DA665@SIC-EXCHANGE> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 1 That is classified information. Mark Jones -----Original Message----- From: Justin [mailto:jmw116@socal.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 7:25 AM To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>Aluminum wing tanks How much did Dana charge to build those tanks for you? Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Jones" To: "KR builders and pilots" Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 6:33 AM Subject: Re: KR>Aluminum wing tanks > These tanks will hold 11.5 gallons each if filled to capacity. That is a > total of 23 gallons at maximum capacity. The average weight of gasoline is > 6.1 lbs per gallon, therefore both tanks filled to maximum capacity would > carry, combined, a total weight of 140.3 pounds of gasoline. Now, let's say > we burn 6.5 gallons (39.65 lbs) per hour, that would give us 3.5 hours of > fuel. Now, let's say we cruise at 180mph, that gives us a range of 630 > miles. > > Mark Jones (N886MJ) > Wales, WI USA > E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com > Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at > http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "robert glidden" > To: "KR builders and pilots" > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 11:35 PM > Subject: Re: KR>Aluminum wing tanks > > > > How much weight are you adding in fuel weight?Thanks Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Mark Langford" > > To: "KR builders and pilots" > > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 9:15 AM > > Subject: KR>Aluminum wing tanks > > > > > > > Dana Overall has finished with Mark Jones' wingtank. The details are at > > > http://www.krnet.org/wingtank/ . If I ever have to build another one, > > it'll > > > be done this way. Total weight is something like 5 pounds, and you can > > > check it for leaks before it's installed. It's riveted and sealed, so > > > there's no welding involved. I think Dana said it holds 11.5 gallons > with > > > airspace at the top. Maybe Mark can tell us more about it... > > > > > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL > > > N56ML "at" hiwaay.net > > > see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > _______________________________________________ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 14:57:53 -0500 From: Mark Jones To: 'KR builders and pilots' Subject: RE: KR>aluminum wing tanks Message-ID: <370D915E4564D611B0530050DABB9FC25DA667@SIC-EXCHANGE> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 2 Thanks Oscar....I reversed William's numbers. Mark Jones -----Original Message----- From: Oscar Zuniga [mailto:taildrags@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 12:42 PM To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>aluminum wing tanks Mark Jones wrote- >Now, let's say we burn 6.5 gallons (39.65 lbs) per hour, that would give us >3.5 hours >of fuel. Now, let's say we cruise at 180mph, that gives us a range of 630 >miles. William's website gives the fuel consumption as 5.6 gal./hr. at 75% power for the 164 cubic inch Corvair. Using those numbers, you would have a tad over 4 hrs. endurance and a range of 720 miles. But to be realistic, using VFR reserves and allowing for unusable fuel, (not to mention personal endurance limits) you could say you could preflight a solid 3.5 hr. typical flight leg time and around 650 SM no-wind range and nobody would argue. But everyone knows that only the KR in the Rand-Robinson promo literature cruises 180MPH anyway ;o) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 18:01:48 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "Dan Heath" To: Subject: Re: KR>it's something to do with the elevators Message-ID: <3EDD44FB.000010.01144@dan> References: Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 3 RE: =0D If any airplane should be short-coupled and pitch sensitive (just by=0D observation), it would be the Questair Venture. But it isn't (read the=0D flight test info at http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepQuestairVenture.htm= l )=0D so it must be "something to do with the elevators" ;o) =0D =0D >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=0D =0D Yes, it is the Questair that I was referring to as being thought to be sh= ort coupled. Look at the chord of the main wing. It is short. It is the relationship between the chord length and the distance between the two th= at makes it short coupled or not.=0D =0D I know there is someone out there who knows the real definition of this. = =0D =0D N64KR=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Red Oak - 2003=0D =0D See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic=0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20From jwog1@copper.net Tue Jun 03 15:29:49 2003 Received: from host204.cisp.cc ([65.196.203.204] helo=nocmailsvc004.allthesites.org) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1)id 19NKHt-0002jP-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Tue, 03 Jun 2003 15:29:49 -0700 Received: from olivia (unverified [216.29.3.133]) by copper.net (Rockliffe SMTPRA 5.2.5) with ESMTP id for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 18:31:30 -0400 Message-ID: <000201c32a1f$de0554f0$85031dd8@olivia> From: "jim wogaman" To: "KR builders and pilots" References: <000701c3211d$20a861a0$5e0ca58c@tbe.com><001401c3219f$dee9b240$155f570c@donnas><001c01c321a0$5c8fae70$155f570c@donnas><3.0.6.32.20030524084323.0082fde0@pop.midwest.net> <011701c321ff$ad395a60$1202a8c0@basement> Subject: Re: KR>problems with KRnet? Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 15:16:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: I'd vote to bring the old list up again. Your time is too valuable to do constant maintaince work and hunt for elusive bugs. Not a negitative comment towards anyone's work. thanks jim wogaman....You do good work Mark! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 15:34:49 -0500 From: "jim wogaman" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>problems with KRnet? Agree with Mark Jones Message-ID: <000701c32a1f$dfca3670$85031dd8@olivia> References: <01a201c322ec$2f4f0580$1202a8c0@basement> <002001c322f9$75704940$6401a8c0@wi.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 4 Agree with Mark Jones! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 17:39:55 -0500 From: "Mark Jones" To: "KR Net" Subject: KR>Aluminum tanks cost!!! Message-ID: <003701c32a21$0e6519e0$6401a8c0@wi.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 5 Dana Overall who built the tanks for me suggested I forward this e-mail to the net for all to read. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dana Overall" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 3:50 PM Subject: Re: Another wing tank!!-LONG > Mark, > > I just received a private email informing me that Justin had asked you how > much I charged to fabricate your wing tanks. I don't care if everyone knows > what I charged you as long as they know why I did it. First of all, this > was not for a "noble" cause. I simply acquired some new airplane building > knowledge when I started construction of my RV. I had absolutely no metal > working skills prior to receiving my tail kit. It was either learn or screw > up. Very quickly I realized by modifying some basic aluminum construction > techniques, an aluminum KR tank could be constructed in numerous > configurations. The same construction techniques could be used in all > configurations. What I wanted to do was enable the builder to use standard > aviation hardware, ie. fuel pickup, vent line, fuel cap and quick drain. I > hadn't seen documentation of aluminum tanks, only questions on how it could > be incorporated in the KR design. The goal was to come up with techniques > that could be performed by the average builder using minumal tools along > with a very fast learning curve. An example of this, are the angles on the > top of the tank. I didn't want to have to bend breaks in the top to fit the > side wall perfectly to decrease the chance for leaks......thus the cheater > angles that made a nice resting bed for the top. I think two , maybe three, > very important factors are present in your tank. One is the one inch break > all around the bottom of the tank to support the tank floor around the > entire diameter. The second is tying the baffles to the top and bottom of > the tank. This will decrease the chance for the bottom flexing at the aft > edges of the baffle causing stress cracks. If someone does have flex, when > the tank is full, stiffeners need to be riveted side to side on the bottom > between the baffles to give structure to that area of the floor. > > If all else fails, I tried it, you can bend the flanges for every part by > clamping the aluminum down to your work bench with a piece of wood running > along the break line and whack the aluminum with a hammer to bend the > flanges. A handfull of 1/8" clecos, pop rivet tool, drill, a file and > sheet metal shears are all you need to build these things. I know we > accomplished our goal of building you a set of leak free tanks that will > take any kind of fuel and will last the lifetime of your KR. I accomplished > my goal of formulating a construction technique that can be duplicated by > the average KR builder. KISS is seriously incorporated in the construction. > Your tanks were used as a means to offer an alternative to the average KR > builder. For years, threads have run their course on the KRNet concerning > aluminum tanks. They always ended up going nowhere. One thing I cannot > stress enough is the use of AN solid AH pop rivets. You cannot use hardware > store bought aluminum pop rivets. It will look like a fuel tank, but that > is about it. > > Just for public knowledge here are three pics of your fuel vent line on your > second tank. The first shows how I attached the screen. I drilled a small > hole through the 3/8" pickup line then ran a piece of safety wire through > the screen and line. The second is a check for fit Sunday morning and the > final one is after finishing the tank early Sunday afternoon. As you can > see, you should have a lot of useable fuel. I proseal the screen to the > tube and to the tank bottom. Just to show how these tanks go together, I > went from second pic. to completed in pic. three in about 3.5 hours. > > http://rvflying.tripod.com/fuel1.jpg > > http://rvflying.tripod.com/fuel2.jpg > > http://rvflying.tripod.com/fuel3.jpg > > Since I was going to use my new found knowledge in aluminum work by building > a model tank, why not build it for someone to use. I wanted to do this for > someone on the KR net whom I knew and was an "old timer". Although you were > not present in the old AOL KRNet days (I think there were less than 50 us of > then), your work is impeccable after visiting with you previously. > > If anyone on the KRNet has a question concerning the techniques I used, I > will certainly be available off the KRNet to assist. Before I unsubscribed > from the KRNet I said I would document the construction, I did that. Now > that I have completed both tanks, it finally feels like I am off the KRNet > after either 8 or 9 years. If I have any gems come up, I'll subscribe for a > day and post it. I don't want to unsubscribe then use you as a messenger. > With that said, feel free to forward this and as a reminder to Justin (just > because you asked).............I did both of them for free. > > > > Dana Overall > Richmond, KY > RV-7 slider/fuselage > http://rvflying.tripod.com > do not archive Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 18:14:55 -0500 From: "Patrick Driscoll" To: "KR Mailing list" Subject: KR>List Message-ID: <001301c32a25$f200c880$fc2dee42@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 6 I don't know just how many posts there have been to this list but I seem = to be getting a LOT of them. It seems that most of them are tests to see if the net is working and = the rest of them say to try the old net or go to another provider.=20 Am I the only one getting all the messages posted to the list??? Pat Driscoll ------ http://USFamily.Net/info - Unlimited Internet - From $8.99/mo! ------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 20:29:53 -0400 From: To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>List Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001301c32a25$f200c880$fc2dee42@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Message: 7 Patrick wrote On Tue, 3 Jun 2003 18:14:55 -0500 "Patrick Driscoll" wrote: >I don't know just how many posts there have been to this >list but I seem to be getting a LOT of them. > It seems that most of them are tests to see if the >net is working and the rest of them say to try the old >net or go to another provider. > Am I the only one getting all the messages posted to >the list??? > >Pat Driscoll > Pat I believe I get all. Also I send normally and seem to get through. Hope the weather clears, Got to do 3 in 90. Steven Phillabaum Auburn, Alabama skphil@charter.net > > >------ http://USFamily.Net/info - Unlimited Internet - >From $8.99/mo! ------ >_______________________________________________ >see KRnet list details at >http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 20:29:34 -0500 From: "Ron Freiberger" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: RE: KR>it's something to do with the elevators Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 8 Most of that crap is smoke and mirrors. Anyone who thinks lengthening the tail 14 inches will fix it probably also believes in Leprechauns. I don't tell my leprechaun story lightly. Ron Freiberger mailto: rfreiberger@swfla.rr.com -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 12:30 PM To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>it's something to do with the elevators Ameet writes- >When the distance between the HS and the wing is small (short couple) like >in the KR >the NP is close to the surface with the higher lift (the wing) which leaves >less >static margin for the CG and hence the inherent pitch sensitivity. If any airplane should be short-coupled and pitch sensitive (just by observation), it would be the Questair Venture. But it isn't (read the flight test info at http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepQuestairVenture.html ) so it must be "something to do with the elevators" ;o) Far better minds than mine have tackled this issue and have come up with redesigned tails, aerodynamic counterbalances, different linkage ratios, biasing springs, and other things to change the pitch feel of the KR, and the jury is still out on many of these things because they haven't flown yet. But I'll bet that by this time next year there will be some actual data posted here, so stay tuned. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 21:43:16 -0400 From: n886kr@netscape.net To: krnet@mylist.net (KR builders and pilots) Subject: KR>Gettng Better Message-ID: <354DCEC0.20A8F1AA.0005EAA5@netscape.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Message: 9 Dan, I'm due to be discharged from the hospital tomorrow. I seem to be much better, but I haven't been under any stress lately. I plan to leave Band Directing altogether (40 years military + 35 years public school is truly enough). I have been given a nice severance package and I received a wonderful card of encouragement and appreciation from my students. I have a person showing major interest in the "Little Beast" at $4000.00 If he does make an offer, I will let you know before I let her go. The "Little Beast" is far too good to let go for less. I will have time now to get linked up with a nearby EAA chapter. There is not all that much to do. The canopy and repaint. If I keep her, I will convert her to tri-gear. I just don't want to mess around anymore with nose overs and so on. I know she will not be the same. Hopefully, she can become my "Little Buddy" Dan, I do appreciate all you have done for me. This has just been an incredibly difficult last three or four years, certainly, to much going on to permit me to concentrate on the project. I feel getting involved in the Kokomo EAA will be the right thing to do. Your renewed friend, Rick Collins, N886KR "Little Beast" __________________________________________________________________ McAfee VirusScan Online from the Netscape Network. Comprehensive protection for your entire computer. Get your free trial today! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/computing/mcafee/index.jsp?promo=393397 Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 free of charge. Download Now! http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 21:51:42 -0400 From: n886kr@netscape.net To: krnet@mylist.net (KR builders and pilots) Subject: KR>My appologies. Message-ID: <056D8879.63933B6F.0005EAA5@netscape.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Message: 10 n886kr@netscape.net wrote: >Dan, > >I'm due to be discharged from the hospital tomorrow. To the fine ladies and gentlemen of the KRnet. I appologize. I intended to replay to Dan Heath, the builder of the "Little Beast". It certainly was not my intention of taking up the valuable netspace with my personal reply to him. Rick Collins, N886KR "Little Beast" __________________________________________________________________ McAfee VirusScan Online from the Netscape Network. Comprehensive protection for your entire computer. Get your free trial today! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/computing/mcafee/index.jsp?promo=393397 Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 free of charge. Download Now! http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 21:12:45 -0500 From: "Mark Jones" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>Aluminum tanks cost!!! Message-ID: <005f01c32a3e$c9b7a2e0$6401a8c0@wi.rr.com> References: <003701c32a21$0e6519e0$6401a8c0@wi.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 11 The materials for these two wing tanks cost $364.70 plus about $36 for Dana to ship them to me. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Jones" To: "KR Net" Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 5:39 PM Subject: KR>Aluminum tanks cost!!! > Dana Overall who built the tanks for me suggested I forward this e-mail to > the net for all to read. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dana Overall" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 3:50 PM > Subject: Re: Another wing tank!!-LONG > > > > Mark, > > > > I just received a private email informing me that Justin had asked you how > > much I charged to fabricate your wing tanks. I don't care if everyone > knows > > what I charged you as long as they know why I did it. First of all, this > > was not for a "noble" cause. I simply acquired some new airplane building > > knowledge when I started construction of my RV. I had absolutely no metal > > working skills prior to receiving my tail kit. It was either learn or > screw > > up. Very quickly I realized by modifying some basic aluminum construction > > techniques, an aluminum KR tank could be constructed in numerous > > configurations. The same construction techniques could be used in all > > configurations. What I wanted to do was enable the builder to use > standard > > aviation hardware, ie. fuel pickup, vent line, fuel cap and quick drain. > I > > hadn't seen documentation of aluminum tanks, only questions on how it > could > > be incorporated in the KR design. The goal was to come up with techniques > > that could be performed by the average builder using minumal tools along > > with a very fast learning curve. An example of this, are the angles on > the > > top of the tank. I didn't want to have to bend breaks in the top to fit > the > > side wall perfectly to decrease the chance for leaks......thus the cheater > > angles that made a nice resting bed for the top. I think two , maybe > three, > > very important factors are present in your tank. One is the one inch > break > > all around the bottom of the tank to support the tank floor around the > > entire diameter. The second is tying the baffles to the top and bottom of > > the tank. This will decrease the chance for the bottom flexing at the aft > > edges of the baffle causing stress cracks. If someone does have flex, > when > > the tank is full, stiffeners need to be riveted side to side on the bottom > > between the baffles to give structure to that area of the floor. > > > > If all else fails, I tried it, you can bend the flanges for every part by > > clamping the aluminum down to your work bench with a piece of wood running > > along the break line and whack the aluminum with a hammer to bend the > > flanges. A handfull of 1/8" clecos, pop rivet tool, drill, a file and > > sheet metal shears are all you need to build these things. I know we > > accomplished our goal of building you a set of leak free tanks that will > > take any kind of fuel and will last the lifetime of your KR. I > accomplished > > my goal of formulating a construction technique that can be duplicated by > > the average KR builder. KISS is seriously incorporated in the > construction. > > Your tanks were used as a means to offer an alternative to the average > KR > > builder. For years, threads have run their course on the KRNet concerning > > aluminum tanks. They always ended up going nowhere. One thing I cannot > > stress enough is the use of AN solid AH pop rivets. You cannot use > hardware > > store bought aluminum pop rivets. It will look like a fuel tank, but that > > is about it. > > > > Just for public knowledge here are three pics of your fuel vent line on > your > > second tank. The first shows how I attached the screen. I drilled a > small > > hole through the 3/8" pickup line then ran a piece of safety wire through > > the screen and line. The second is a check for fit Sunday morning and the > > final one is after finishing the tank early Sunday afternoon. As you can > > see, you should have a lot of useable fuel. I proseal the screen to the > > tube and to the tank bottom. Just to show how these tanks go together, I > > went from second pic. to completed in pic. three in about 3.5 hours. > > > > http://rvflying.tripod.com/fuel1.jpg > > > > http://rvflying.tripod.com/fuel2.jpg > > > > http://rvflying.tripod.com/fuel3.jpg > > > > Since I was going to use my new found knowledge in aluminum work by > building > > a model tank, why not build it for someone to use. I wanted to do this > for > > someone on the KR net whom I knew and was an "old timer". Although you > were > > not present in the old AOL KRNet days (I think there were less than 50 us > of > > then), your work is impeccable after visiting with you previously. > > > > If anyone on the KRNet has a question concerning the techniques I used, I > > will certainly be available off the KRNet to assist. Before I unsubscribed > > from the KRNet I said I would document the construction, I did that. Now > > that I have completed both tanks, it finally feels like I am off the KRNet > > after either 8 or 9 years. If I have any gems come up, I'll subscribe for > a > > day and post it. I don't want to unsubscribe then use you as a messenger. > > With that said, feel free to forward this and as a reminder to Justin > (just > > because you asked).............I did both of them for free. > > > > > > > > Dana Overall > > Richmond, KY > > RV-7 slider/fuselage > > http://rvflying.tripod.com > > do not archive > > > > Mark Jones (N886MJ) > Wales, WI USA > E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com > Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at > http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 21:41:59 -0500 From: To: "KR builders and flyers" Subject: KR>KR2 Stall speed Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 12 The stall speed of the KR2 is listed as 52mph, which is 45 Knots. The no flaps stall limit for a "Sport Pilot" is 44Knots. I calculate a plain "Hershey Bar" wing with 2 feet of increased span would raise the area by 15 square feet. The KR2 Spec sheet says wing area 80 square feet, but I can only account for 75 (!). Does anyone know the actual stall speed, with or without flaps, and at what weight would that apply? I don't have a problem ratio-ing the data from 75 or 80 square feet, but it seems there's 5 square feet missing. It looks like a KR2SPort is possible based on the initial specs.... Ron Freiberger mailto: rfreiberger@swfla.rr.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 22:46:20 -0400 From: "Curtis Chance" To: Subject: KR>Work Table Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C32A21.F3C2E7B0" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 13 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C32A21.F3C2E7B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looking for some advice(lessons learned) on recommended work table dimensions to build my KR-2S plus. I would like to use something narrower than the Rand Robinson suggested 4 X 16, however I don't want to find out later in the project that I need a 4' wide table. Thanks Curtis "Schneider" Chance LT USNR VS-24 1st LT navalavi8or@bellsouth.net chancecs@vs24.navy.mil SCOUT'S RULE!!! ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C32A21.F3C2E7B0-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 20:52:04 -0600 From: lloyd schultz To: rfreiberger@swfla.rr.com, KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>it's something to do with the elevators Message-ID: <3EDD5ED4.7645F685@earthlink.net> References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 14 Because I'm barely smart enough to occasionally realize at least som of what I don't know, I'll not comment personally on this thread, but it's a subject I have found interesting for many years...stability and control. Let me simply quote a Mr. Don Stackhouse, who I believe once was a propeller engineer, "...dynamic stability is linearly proportional to tail surface area, but proportional to the SQUARE of the tail moment arm, so extremely short tails tend to have poor dynamic stability.". Don knows airplanes. The comments he posts regularly to the electric flight RC bulletin board I monitor, are most informative. I've yet to see anyone successfully challenge him on any subject aerodynamic...not just propellers. Don manufactures airplane kits and has a web site with many Q/A posts I believe the KR group would appreciate reading. I'll lookup the URL and post it. -Lloyd Schultz Ron Freiberger wrote: > Most of that crap is smoke and mirrors. Anyone who thinks lengthening the > tail 14 inches will fix it probably also believes in Leprechauns. I don't > tell my leprechaun story lightly. > > Ron Freiberger > mailto: rfreiberger@swfla.rr.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of > Oscar Zuniga > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 12:30 PM > To: krnet@mylist.net > Subject: KR>it's something to do with the elevators > > Ameet writes- > > >When the distance between the HS and the wing is small (short couple) like > >in the KR > >the NP is close to the surface with the higher lift (the wing) which leaves > >less > >static margin for the CG and hence the inherent pitch sensitivity. > > If any airplane should be short-coupled and pitch sensitive (just by > observation), it would be the Questair Venture. But it isn't (read the > flight test info at http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepQuestairVenture.html ) > so it must be "something to do with the elevators" ;o) Far better minds > than mine have tackled this issue and have come up with redesigned tails, > aerodynamic counterbalances, different linkage ratios, biasing springs, and > other things to change the pitch feel of the KR, and the jury is still out > on many of these things because they haven't flown yet. But I'll bet that > by this time next year there will be some actual data posted here, so stay > tuned. > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > _________________________________________________________________ > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 19:54:28 -0700 From: "Louis Staalberg" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>gussets Message-ID: <002c01c32a44$b59528e0$0200a8c6@toshiba> References: <00f501c32848$468985c0$1202a8c0@basement> <3EDA0E44.E8CA7E4B@tritel.net> <3.0.6.32.20030602205256.007ad720@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 15 Here is what I did! Get some kids Play Dough, put a piece of wax paper where the gusset is going to be, squeez the Play Dough in that spot and remove carefully and, voila, you wil have a perfect three dimensions model. Regards, Louis Staalberg N9FL@cybertrails.com Payson, Arizona,USA 34-11.729 N 111-19.383W ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 20:59:10 -0600 From: lloyd schultz To: rfreiberger@swfla.rr.com, KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>it's something to do with the elevators Message-ID: <3EDD607E.25E19040@earthlink.net> References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 16 Here's Don Stackhouse's Q&A site URL: http://www.djaerotech.com/dj_askjd/ -Lloyd Schultz Ron Freiberger wrote: > Most of that crap is smoke and mirrors. Anyone who thinks lengthening the > tail 14 inches will fix it probably also believes in Leprechauns. I don't > tell my leprechaun story lightly. > > Ron Freiberger > mailto: rfreiberger@swfla.rr.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of > Oscar Zuniga > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 12:30 PM > To: krnet@mylist.net > Subject: KR>it's something to do with the elevators > > Ameet writes- > > >When the distance between the HS and the wing is small (short couple) like > >in the KR > >the NP is close to the surface with the higher lift (the wing) which leaves > >less > >static margin for the CG and hence the inherent pitch sensitivity. > > If any airplane should be short-coupled and pitch sensitive (just by > observation), it would be the Questair Venture. But it isn't (read the > flight test info at http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepQuestairVenture.html ) > so it must be "something to do with the elevators" ;o) Far better minds > than mine have tackled this issue and have come up with redesigned tails, > aerodynamic counterbalances, different linkage ratios, biasing springs, and > other things to change the pitch feel of the KR, and the jury is still out > on many of these things because they haven't flown yet. But I'll bet that > by this time next year there will be some actual data posted here, so stay > tuned. > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > _________________________________________________________________ > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:00:23 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>it's something to do with the elevators Message-ID: <004e01c3295a$c08e1bc0$e402a58c@N56ML> References: <3EDD607E.25E19040@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 17 "Tail volume coeffiecient" might be what y'all are grasping for. I don't have that stuff in front of me at the moment (I'm in El Paso, for some reason), but I recall seeing a list of tail volume coefficients for various planes in one of the design books that ran the gamut from docile to radical (Spitfire, maybe), and the KR had even LESS than anything else on the list. Now tail volume is not as accurate as stability derivatives, but it's an indication, and the KR was completely off the scale... Mark Langford mailto:langford@hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 06:31:13 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "Dan Heath" To: Subject: Re: KR>KR2SPort Message-ID: <3EDDF4A1.00000D.01408@dan> References: Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 18 Rand was doing something with a motor glider at one time. Maybe there is some information about it, that would apply to what you want to do.=0D =0D Remember, when reading those specs, that they are for the weight as specified. =0D =0D If you could come up with a KR2SPort, you would really have something tha= t I think would be very popular.=0D =0D N64KR=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Red Oak - 2003=0D =0D See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic=0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20From DanRH@alltel.net Wed Jun 04 03:48:51 2003 Received: from mta02.alltel.net ([166.102.165.144] helo=mta02-srv.alltel.net) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19NVp4-0007cw-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Wed, 04 Jun 2003 03:48:50 -0700 Received: from dan ([151.213.90.230]) by mta02-srv.alltel.net with SMTP id <20030604105037.NVUT28309.mta02-srv.alltel.net@dan> for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 05:50:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3EDDFA46.000014.01408@dan> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 06:55:18 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) X-Mailer: IncrediMail 2001 (2001107.2001107) From: "Dan Heath" References: <3EDD607E.25E19040@earthlink.net> X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-FVER: X-CNT: ; X-Priority: 3 To: Subject: Re: KR>it's something to do with the elevators Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1b3 X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: RE: Here's Don Stackhouse's Q&A site URL: http://www.djaerotech com/dj_askjd/=0D =0D >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=0D I searched on "short coupling". This is the first snippet that came up:=0D >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=0D =0D Last Updated : 14 August, 2002 August 13, 2002 ORDER ONLINE |...=0D ...aircraft usually is, in effect, extremely short-coupled (i.e.: has a= n extremely short tail moment arm). Short coupled aircraft in general tend = to have a...=0D ...in pitch. If you built a conventional tailed model with a tail momen= t arm shorter than the mean aerodynamic chord of the wing, it would be very touchy...=0D =0D >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=0D =0D Please note: tail moment arm shorter than the mean aerodynamic chord of = the wing.=0D =0D Thanks for the site. That is a keeper.=0D =0D N64KR=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Red Oak - 2003=0D =0D See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic=0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20From klw1953@juno.com Wed Jun 04 04:39:49 2003 Received: from m03.lax.untd.com ([64.136.30.66]) by lizard.esosoft.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19NWcP-0007w2-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Wed, 04 Jun 2003 04:39:49 -0700 Received: from cookie.untd.com by cookie.untd.com for <"EQtoFgNDcyLHgKPX22S71t0DMwnrfpkNsyMluXAqNjAmjNB+Xk0y4g==">; Wed, 04 Jun 2003 04:40:47 PDT Received: (from klw1953@juno.com) by m03.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id HZTYYB73; Wed, 04 Jun 2003 04:40:47 PDT To: rfreiberger@swfla.rr.com,krnet@mylist.net Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 07:40:24 -0400 Subject: Re: KR>KR2 Stall speed Message-ID: <20030604.074024.2372.0.klw1953@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-34 From: Kenneth L Wiltrout X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Ron my 2S comes in at 47-48mph clean. Airplane weighs 650lbs and me at 230. On Tue, 3 Jun 2003 21:41:59 -0500 writes: > The stall speed of the KR2 is listed as 52mph, which is 45 Knots. > The no > flaps stall limit for a "Sport Pilot" is 44Knots. I calculate a > plain > "Hershey Bar" wing with 2 feet of increased span would raise the > area by 15 > square feet. > The KR2 Spec sheet says wing area 80 square feet, but I can only > account for > 75 (!). > > Does anyone know the actual stall speed, with or without flaps, and > at what > weight would that apply? > > I don't have a problem ratio-ing the data from 75 or 80 square feet, > but it > seems there's 5 square feet missing. > > It looks like a KR2SPort is possible based on the initial specs.... > > Ron Freiberger > mailto: rfreiberger@swfla.rr.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 56, Issue 1 ************************************