From: To: Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 62, Issue 1 Date: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 9:10 AM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Aluminum tanks (Dana Overall) 2. Re: Grove or Diehl (B. Wunder) 3. Re: Aluminum tanks / Aluminum Solder (Mark Jones) 4. Tanks and Thanks (William Clapp) 5. KR landing gear/brakes (Timothy Bellville) 6. Re: hot battery (Timothy Bellville) 7. Re: hot battery (Timothy Bellville) 8. RE: hot battery (Kogelmann Christian - OS ETA) 9. RE: KR landing gear/brakes (S.F. Vidal) 10. FW: High CHT (S.F. Vidal) 11. Re: FW: High CHT (Dan Heath) 12. Gel Batteries (JIM VANCE) 13. Re: Tanks (Mark Langford) 14. Tanks-some rambling thoughts. (Dana Overall) 15. RE: Tanks-some rambling thoughts. (Mark Jones) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 22:46:32 -0400 From: "Dana Overall" To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>Aluminum tanks Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 1 >From: "Ron Eason" >If I may offer a alternate for sealing aluminum tanks it would be to solder >the seams with aluminum solder using a propane torch. There is a vender at >Oshkosh that offers a kit for about $85. Rivets and solder seam like a >alternate I originally signed back on in an attempt to find any builders in Switzerland that I could drop in on, on my trip there shortly, so I really don't want to start anything but I tried this alternate method. In this picture I used the aluminum solder from the guy at SNF that I bought several years ago. The guy solders alum coke cans with it, but..............I made up this test piece using the same methods I used for Mark's tanks. http://rvflying.tripod.com/leak1.jpg This second picture shows the corner with a heavy aluminum solder buildup and the sides with a nice bead along the floor and side wall. I really tried to make a nice leak proof bond as I scuffed up both surfaces prior to soldering and dropped a bead on the rivet heads. http://rvflying.tripod.com/leak2.jpg This is about 20 minutes later http://rvflying.tripod.com/leak3.jpg I could go back in and try and find the leak but the original beading took me at least 20 minutes. In that time I could have used Proseal and totally riveting in a real leak proof tank bottom. I know it's builders mentality to try and come up with different ways to do things but for goodness sakes try it before you throw it out there for someone to use. In this application, one would have to individually solder each and every rivet head and along with seam lines. I'll take a flux brush and smear around a rivet while someone else solders and lets see how many leak free ones I do compared to the alternate method. I'll bet is over 10-1. Remember, I totally Prosealed and riveted together Mark's second tank in 3.5 hours. It's experimental, for goodness sakes do what you want to your own airplane. It's just my opinion that before one offers something as an alternative, you should have at least researched it properly or have tried it on a scale deemed appropriate to it's full scale application. This method may work for someone else, but it didn't for me......heck, I'm probably so far off base it ridiculous though........ Happy builder gang. Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 23:15:06 -0500 From: "B. Wunder" To: , "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>Grove or Diehl Message-ID: <000001c32f07$2b3cfe80$1a34933f@computer> References: <046701c32dc6$3014f440$1202a8c0@basement> <3EE50417.E6F0EFBC@ns.sympatico.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 2 John, Couple of problems..when I went to copy the Grove drawing of the bracket, there was a big "Proprietary Data" on the front of it and I can not copy without permission of Grove Aircraft. However, I have posted some pictures of the bracket on my web site (which I forgot to give on my last message). r/Bernie KR2S Builder Lexington Park, MD http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n2w6 ----- Original Message ----- From: "JOHN SAUNDERS" To: "KR builders and pilots" Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 5:03 PM Subject: Re: KR>Grove or Diehl > Hello, my name is John Saunders. I am a long time reader, first time writer. > Firstly, thanks to all who contribute. Without your wise words I would not have > considered building the KR2S. Could someone please send me a picture & > description of the brackets required to mount the Grove gear? I am also looking > for a front & side pic of one of Todd's canopies. Has anyone incorporated a BRS > chute into their KR? > Cheers, > John. > > Mark Langford wrote: > > > Either Grove or Diehl gear can be made trigear or taildragger, but you'd > > need the Diehl nose gear in either case, since Grove doesn't make one that I > > know of. You just mount the Grove (or Diehl) main gear either in front of > > or behind the main spar to get the version you want. > > > > The attraction of the Grove gear is that you can install it without tearing > > into the wing, just bolt some brackets to the spar and bolt on the gear with > > about 4 bolts (through the floor, to the spar). > > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 22:33:05 -0500 From: "Mark Jones" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>Aluminum tanks / Aluminum Solder Message-ID: <00ac01c32f01$0186f380$6401a8c0@wi.rr.com> References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 3 I too bought some of this solder and ordered their video tape. Alumaweld is the brand I bought and I think it was $45 for a half pound plus $10 for the video. I even sent Langford some to try. This stuff has it's place but NOT on a tank for sealing purposes. Way too much work to get perfect seal. I have used the Alumaweld for a lot of other different applications and had great success. For example, I miss drilled a hole on my alternator bracket so I filled the hole with Alumaweld and redrilled it. If done correctly, It will be solid as a rock and have a bond stronger than the surrounding aluminum. Note: it is not good in a flex application as it will crack. I also tried to seal my starter bracket to the top of the milled off oil housing adapter on my engine...NOT. Never could get a leak proof oil seal with it. Your results may vary but I vote no when it comes to using aluminum solder on a fuel tank. You guys are trying to re-invent a proven system. Do you want to fly or putz around building for ever? Use proven techniques and you will fly sooner and safer. Dana has provided us with invaluable information. Take it and run with it!!! Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dana Overall" To: Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 9:46 PM Subject: Re: KR>Aluminum tanks > >From: "Ron Eason" > >If I may offer a alternate for sealing aluminum tanks it would be to solder > >the seams with aluminum solder using a propane torch. There is a vender at > >Oshkosh that offers a kit for about $85. Rivets and solder seam like a > >alternate > > I originally signed back on in an attempt to find any builders in > Switzerland that I could drop in on, on my trip there shortly, so I really > don't want to start anything but I tried this alternate method. > > In this picture I used the aluminum solder from the guy at SNF that I bought > several years ago. The guy solders alum coke cans with it, > but..............I made up this test piece using the same methods I used for > Mark's tanks. > > http://rvflying.tripod.com/leak1.jpg > > This second picture shows the corner with a heavy aluminum solder buildup > and the sides with a nice bead along the floor and side wall. I really > tried to make a nice leak proof bond as I scuffed up both surfaces prior to > soldering and dropped a bead on the rivet heads. > > http://rvflying.tripod.com/leak2.jpg > > This is about 20 minutes later > > http://rvflying.tripod.com/leak3.jpg > > I could go back in and try and find the leak but the original beading took > me at least 20 minutes. In that time I could have used Proseal and totally > riveting in a real leak proof tank bottom. I know it's builders mentality > to try and come up with different ways to do things but for goodness sakes > try it before you throw it out there for someone to use. In this > application, one would have to individually solder each and every rivet head > and along with seam lines. I'll take a flux brush and smear around a rivet > while someone else solders and lets see how many leak free ones I do > compared to the alternate method. I'll bet is over 10-1. Remember, I > totally Prosealed and riveted together Mark's second tank in 3.5 hours. > > It's experimental, for goodness sakes do what you want to your own airplane. > It's just my opinion that before one offers something as an alternative, > you should have at least researched it properly or have tried it on a scale > deemed appropriate to it's full scale application. This method may work for > someone else, but it didn't for me......heck, I'm probably so far off base > it ridiculous though........ > > Happy builder gang. > > > Dana Overall > 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host > Richmond, KY > RV-7 slider/fuselage > http://rvflying.tripod.com > do not archive > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 03:46:20 -0400 From: "William Clapp" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: KR>Tanks and Thanks Message-ID: <005e01c32f24$630c8980$01fcd241@clapp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 4 I picked up some aluminum - Now I just need a few fittings and get some = Proseal - I finally made my mine up to build all three tanks this way. = Insteresting inputs though from all sides. I plan to make all three = tanks removable so they can be repaired or changed. Thanks to Mark = Langford for the firewall drawing - after seeing it I can see that the = original design did not take into account smooth and gracefull lines = since the transittion from the ply on the fuse to the deck is very sharp = and abrupt. I may have to smooth that out so there is a seamless look = to it. =20 Back to bed. Bill =20 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:03:40 -0400 From: "Timothy Bellville" To: Subject: KR>KR landing gear/brakes Message-ID: <003501c32f26$ceab2050$955f570c@donnas> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 5 Hi everyone, I have a couple of new questions. Awhile back , when I wrote about putting toe brakes on my Kr2, a = gentleman warned me to beef up the rudder control horn else I would bend = it pressing to hard on the brakes. I have found this to be true. On my sonerai this was never a issue due to the metal construction of = the whole tail, but on the Kr, I am hesitant to change the design. Does anyone know of a way to reinforce this area without doing major = surgery or adding to much additional weight? And has anyone ever used a hand brake mounted to the stick to apply both = brakes at the same time? I had this Idea when I was contemplating the = control horn problem. Also I have retracts, if it matters. Thanks everyone, Tim KR2 N7038V ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:26:06 -0400 From: "Timothy Bellville" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>hot battery Message-ID: <006401c32f29$f0f330a0$955f570c@donnas> References: <94.38d1ad7b.2c16834f@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 6 No that this could happen to a KR , but I want to write about something that happened to a bank of batteries that we use at our water plant to start our high service pumps. When I flipped the switch on one of these pumps last Wednesday, there was an immediate loud explosion from the back room where the batteries are kept. Upon investigating I found a mist of atomized electrolyte in the air and battery parts in a 25 ft. radius of the bank. I will use a dry cell battery in my KR2 from now on, as far as I know these cannot explode if use properly, and need no ventilation. I had one in my Sonerai I for two years with no problems. I was the same one that they use in Jet skis. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:32:01 -0400 From: "Timothy Bellville" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>hot battery Message-ID: <007801c32f2a$c4909f10$955f570c@donnas> References: <94.38d1ad7b.2c16834f@aol.com> <006401c32f29$f0f330a0$955f570c@donnas> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 7 Gee, I need to proof read more before I click send. Sorry everyone. Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Timothy Bellville" To: "KR builders and pilots" Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 4:26 AM Subject: Re: KR>hot battery > No that this could happen to a KR , but I want to write about something that > happened to a bank of batteries that we use at our water plant to start our > high service pumps. > When I flipped the switch on one of these pumps last Wednesday, there was an > immediate loud explosion from the back room where the batteries are kept. > Upon investigating I found a mist of atomized electrolyte in the air and > battery parts in a 25 ft. radius of the bank. > I will use a dry cell battery in my KR2 from now on, as far as I know these > cannot explode if use properly, and need no ventilation. > I had one in my Sonerai I for two years with no problems. > I was the same one that they use in Jet skis. > > Tim > > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:34:21 +0200 From: Kogelmann Christian - OS ETA To: 'KR builders and pilots' Subject: RE: KR>hot battery Message-ID: <9D054CEF43F1C243A279E5435E9717465B6ED6@sviemxs02.gate01.skylines.global> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 8 Tim, I can confirm this. I have a friend were his battery exploded on his motorbike. Luckily he was not riding it. Electrolyte was everywhere, it did not bend anything but the frame started to corrode in places where he didn't wash the stuff off. I have never heard of a car battery exploding. Does anyone know why those batteries explode and if there is a way to prevent it? What Gel Cell Bat do you use now, how big and heavy is it? Thanks Christian OE-VPD http://www.members.aon.at/oevpd -----Original Message----- From: Timothy Bellville [mailto:Sonerai1@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Dienstag, 10. Juni 2003 10:26 To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>hot battery No that this could happen to a KR , but I want to write about something that happened to a bank of batteries that we use at our water plant to start our high service pumps. When I flipped the switch on one of these pumps last Wednesday, there was an immediate loud explosion from the back room where the batteries are kept. Upon investigating I found a mist of atomized electrolyte in the air and battery parts in a 25 ft. radius of the bank. I will use a dry cell battery in my KR2 from now on, as far as I know these cannot explode if use properly, and need no ventilation. I had one in my Sonerai I for two years with no problems. I was the same one that they use in Jet skis. Tim _______________________________________________ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:09:39 +0200 From: "S.F. Vidal" To: "'KR builders and pilots'" Subject: RE: KR>KR landing gear/brakes Message-ID: <000101c32f30$ad5f8580$da05a8c0@sergevidal> In-Reply-To: <003501c32f26$ceab2050$955f570c@donnas> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 9 I have hand brakes on my flying KR. Since it's a taildragger, the two brakes are separate to help with ground steering... which I strongly recommend for all taildragger KR2s! My brakes are motrocycle type handles; they are not mounted on the stick, Russian style, but just ahead of the main spar. You grab them with one hand, while your other hand is on the stick. Non typical, but easy to build and effective. You can have a look at them on Mark Langford's site, under Serge Vidal's KR. Serge F. VIDAL KR2 ZS-WEC (between two engines) Johannesburg, South Africa E-mail: svidal@icon.co.za -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Timothy Bellville Sent: 10/06/2003 10:04 To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>KR landing gear/brakes Hi everyone, I have a couple of new questions. Awhile back , when I wrote about putting toe brakes on my Kr2, a gentleman warned me to beef up the rudder control horn else I would bend it pressing to hard on the brakes. I have found this to be true. On my sonerai this was never a issue due to the metal construction of the whole tail, but on the Kr, I am hesitant to change the design. Does anyone know of a way to reinforce this area without doing major surgery or adding to much additional weight? And has anyone ever used a hand brake mounted to the stick to apply both brakes at the same time? I had this Idea when I was contemplating the control horn problem. Also I have retracts, if it matters. Thanks everyone, Tim KR2 N7038V _______________________________________________ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:15:50 +0200 From: "S.F. Vidal" To: Subject: KR>FW: High CHT Message-ID: <000201c32f30$ea15aa90$da05a8c0@sergevidal> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 10 -----Original Message----- From: S.F. Vidal [mailto:svidal@icon.co.za] Sent: 10/06/2003 10:46 To: 'krnet@mylist.com' Subject: High CHT I recently upgraded my KR2's engine from a stock 2.0 liter VW to a 2.4 liter VW conversion (similar to the GPASC conversion, from a 2.0 liter Type 4 VW). Something quite disturbing is that the CHT on the new engine climbs much faster, and settles much higher than with the previous block. I get 230 degrees C, instead of 190 degrees C. What can possibly be the cause? Any thoughts? Serge F. VIDAL KR2 ZS-WEC (between two engines) Johannesburg, South Africa E-mail: svidal@icon.co.za ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 05:42:08 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "Dan Heath" To: , Subject: Re: KR>FW: High CHT Message-ID: <3EE5D220.00000C.01200@dan> References: <000201c32f30$ea15aa90$da05a8c0@sergevidal> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 11 RE: I get 230=0D degrees C, instead of 190 degrees C. =0D >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=0D =0D What else did you change? Did you do anything to get more cooling? =0D =0D N64KR=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Red Oak - 2003=0D =0D See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic=0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20From DanRH@alltel.net Tue Jun 10 02:53:16 2003 Received: from mta01.alltel.net ([166.102.165.143] helo=mta01-srv.alltel.net) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19Pfoa-000Jul-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 02:53:16 -0700 Received: from dan ([151.213.94.65]) by mta01-srv.alltel.net with SMTP id <20030610095118.VMW2191.mta01-srv.alltel.net@dan> for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:51:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3EE5D555.000010.01200@dan> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 05:55:49 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) X-Mailer: IncrediMail 2001 (2001107.2001107) From: "Dan Heath" References: <003501c32f26$ceab2050$955f570c@donnas> X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-FVER: X-CNT: ; X-Priority: 3 To: Subject: Re: KR>KR landing gear/brakes Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1b3 X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: If you are using hydraulic brakes, this should not be a problem, because = you will not have to apply that much pressure.=0D =0D I believe that the early KRs had a cable running between the calipers, through the cockpit, that you could grab and pull. I know of one Old Tim= er who flew his that way for many years. I just heard about a month ago tha= t he is fitting a fixed gear on it now, so, there may be no more of those l= eft around. =0D =0D N64KR=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Red Oak - 2003=0D =0D See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic=0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20From DanRH@alltel.net Tue Jun 10 03:00:45 2003 Received: from mta01.alltel.net ([166.102.165.143] helo=mta01-srv.alltel.net) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19Pfvp-000Jy2-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 03:00:45 -0700 Received: from dan ([151.213.94.65]) by mta01-srv.alltel.net with SMTP id <20030610095847.WDU2191.mta01-srv.alltel.net@dan> for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:58:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3EE5D716.000012.01200@dan> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 06:03:18 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) X-Mailer: IncrediMail 2001 (2001107.2001107) From: "Dan Heath" References: <000001c32f07$2b3cfe80$1a34933f@computer> X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-FVER: X-CNT: ; X-Priority: 3 To: Subject: Re: KR>Grove Brackets Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1b3 X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Bernie,=0D =0D Thanks for the pics. It looks like that gear actually is mounted a few inches inside the fuselage. Is that how it works? =0D =0D N64KR=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Red Oak - 2003=0D =0D See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic=0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20From DanRH@alltel.net Tue Jun 10 03:07:47 2003 Received: from mta02.alltel.net ([166.102.165.144] helo=mta02-srv.alltel.net) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19Pg2c-000K5u-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 03:07:47 -0700 Received: from dan ([151.213.94.65]) by mta02-srv.alltel.net with SMTP id <20030610100548.TDJ10434.mta02-srv.alltel.net@dan> for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 05:05:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3EE5D8BB.000014.01200@dan> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 06:10:19 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) X-Mailer: IncrediMail 2001 (2001107.2001107) From: "Dan Heath" References: X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-FVER: X-CNT: ; X-Priority: 3 To: Subject: Re: KR>Aluminum weld - Dana's test Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1b3 X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Dana,=0D =0D Thanks for taking the time to do that. As I said, I built my first tank = by having it welded. I had to use .063 aluminum. On hind site, much too he= avy If I do it again, I am glad to know that there is a "how to" available.= =20 Like you said, we like to do it ourselves and for me, welding is outside = my skill set. =0D =0D N64KR=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Red Oak - 2003=0D =0D See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic=0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20From svidal@icon.co.za Tue Jun 10 03:44:51 2003 Received: from mercury.is.co.za ([196.4.160.222]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19PgcT-000KFH-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 03:44:50 -0700 Received: from sergevidal (c9-rba-60.dial-up.net [196.33.246.60]) by mercury.is.co.za (Postfix) with SMTP id 0D8BBB8A92 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:42:40 +0200 (SAST) From: "S.F. Vidal" To: Subject: FW: KR>FW: High CHT Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:42:46 +0200 Message-ID: <000c01c32f3d$108fb5b0$da05a8c0@sergevidal> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1b3 X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: svidal@icon.co.za, KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: -----Original Message----- From: S.F. Vidal [mailto:svidal@icon.co.za] Sent: 10/06/2003 12:38 To: 'Dan Heath' Subject: RE: KR>FW: High CHT No, I did not. Quite the contrary: the baffles still need to be adapted. But once again, what worries me most is that the CHT climbs considerably faster than before! 230 degrees is the temperature not to be exceeded, according to Great Plains. It is way too high Factors that could play a part are: - The CHT probe used to sit in a fairly rusty area; it now sits on a clean surface; - The engine is new, and maybe this means lots of friction at the heads. Serge -----Original Message----- From: Dan Heath [mailto:DanRH@AllTel.net] Sent: 10/06/2003 14:42 To: krnet@mylist.net; svidal@icon.co.za Subject: Re: KR>FW: High CHT RE: I get 230 degrees C, instead of 190 degrees C. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What else did you change? Did you do anything to get more cooling? N64KR Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC DanRH@KR-Builder.org See you in Red Oak - 2003 See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:41:56 -0500 From: "JIM VANCE" To: "krnet" Subject: KR>Gel Batteries Message-ID: <008701c32fb2$7b10f960$0200a8c0@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 12 I put a gel battery in my KR-2. It's worth a few extra bucks to not = have to worry with venting and getting rid of the acid vapors. Batteries explode because they generate hydrogen gas when they are = charged. Look at a picture of the Hindenberg to see what hydrogen can = do. I found a small company that sells a full range of gel batteries. They = are most professional in their service and shipping, and their prices = are competitive. Their catalog can be seen at b and c specialty.com. Jim Vance = Vance@ClafliinWildcats.comFrom crainey1@cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 10 05:38:18 2003 Received: from ms-smtp-04.tampabay.rr.com ([65.32.1.35]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19PiOH-000Kpv-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 05:38:17 -0700 Received: from Beverly (5.70.33.65.cfl.rr.com [65.33.70.5]) by ms-smtp-04.tampabay.rr.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.5) with SMTP id h5ACaIUO000923 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002a01c32f4c$e3cdef50$05462141@Beverly> From: "Colin" To: "KR builders and pilots" Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:36:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1b3 Subject: KR>Batteries and CHT X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: A netter asked about why the batteries explode: generally in the auto = world my experience has been that the times they have exploded on me, = and there have been several, is the battery generally is either shorted = internally, and ignites the charging gases, or vapors get trapped and = some other catalyst ignites the vapors. Not to say that this is always = the case, but all of them that I have seen have been older batteries in = rough shape/not taken care of. Serge, even though your engine gets most of its cooling from the = oil system, if your baffles are not in the proper position, then your = temp is going to sky rocket. The engine needs all of its means of = cooling, oil, airflow, and exhaust. Any of those not configured properly = will lead to higher than normal temps. Colin Rainey KR2(td) crainey1@cfl.rr.com Sanford, Florida FLY SAFE!!!!From crainey1@cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 10 05:43:51 2003 Received: from ms-smtp-03.tampabay.rr.com ([65.32.1.41]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19PiTf-000Ktd-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 05:43:51 -0700 Received: from Beverly (5.70.33.65.cfl.rr.com [65.33.70.5]) by ms-smtp-03.tampabay.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with SMTP id h5ACfq4W002270 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:41:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <003301c32f4d$aadf1600$05462141@Beverly> From: "Colin" To: "KR builders and pilots" Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:41:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1b3 Subject: KR>Tanks X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Netters, I have read the posts about tanks, and appreciate everyone's wisdom = about the aluminum. I plan to build a tank similar to Mark's, but for = under the passenger seat. All who have used it say that vinylester resin = is the stuff to use with one of the impervious foams. Can someone please = tell me the actual product names/or part numbers to use from either = Wicks, or AS&S so that I don't order the wrong stuff. I can't seem to = find any product description that describes resin as vinylester, and = have forgotten which foam is okay to use if necessary. Thanks a = million, Colin Rainey KR2(td) crainey1@cfl.rr.com Sanford, Florida FLY SAFE!!!!From ron@jrl-engineering.com Tue Jun 10 05:45:06 2003 Received: from mail.kendra.com ([65.73.234.4] helo=jrl-engineering.com) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19PiUs-000Kwi-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 05:45:06 -0700 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 05:43:10 -0700 Message-Id: <200306100543.AA249692470@jrl-engineering.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Ron Eason" To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>Aluminum tanks X-Mailer: X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: ron@jrl-engineering.com, KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: I have done this type of soldering of aluminum for last two or three years and it has done a good job on what I have done. It's not been on aluminum tanks but on other parts for my KR. I have tig welded and soldered the various parts. Both methods require some skill and practice to get a good finish. One thing about solder that is good, is you can reheat it vary easily and repair/resoloder it with a propane torch. Note: Expect some distortion when soldering sheetmetal but riviting should minimize it. ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Dana Overall" Reply-To: KR builders and pilots Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 22:46:32 -0400 >>From: "Ron Eason" >>If I may offer a alternate for sealing aluminum tanks it would be to solder >>the seams with aluminum solder using a propane torch. There is a vender at >>Oshkosh that offers a kit for about $85. Rivets and solder seam like a >>alternate > >I originally signed back on in an attempt to find any builders in >Switzerland that I could drop in on, on my trip there shortly, so I really >don't want to start anything but I tried this alternate method. > >In this picture I used the aluminum solder from the guy at SNF that I bought >several years ago. The guy solders alum coke cans with it, >but..............I made up this test piece using the same methods I used for >Mark's tanks. > >http://rvflying.tripod.com/leak1.jpg > >This second picture shows the corner with a heavy aluminum solder buildup >and the sides with a nice bead along the floor and side wall. I really >tried to make a nice leak proof bond as I scuffed up both surfaces prior to >soldering and dropped a bead on the rivet heads. > >http://rvflying.tripod.com/leak2.jpg > >This is about 20 minutes later > >http://rvflying.tripod.com/leak3.jpg > >I could go back in and try and find the leak but the original beading took >me at least 20 minutes. In that time I could have used Proseal and totally >riveting in a real leak proof tank bottom. I know it's builders mentality >to try and come up with different ways to do things but for goodness sakes >try it before you throw it out there for someone to use. In this >application, one would have to individually solder each and every rivet head >and along with seam lines. I'll take a flux brush and smear around a rivet >while someone else solders and lets see how many leak free ones I do >compared to the alternate method. I'll bet is over 10-1. Remember, I >totally Prosealed and riveted together Mark's second tank in 3.5 hours. > >It's experimental, for goodness sakes do what you want to your own airplane. > It's just my opinion that before one offers something as an alternative, >you should have at least researched it properly or have tried it on a scale >deemed appropriate to it's full scale application. This method may work for >someone else, but it didn't for me......heck, I'm probably so far off base >it ridiculous though........ > >Happy builder gang. > > >Dana Overall >1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host >Richmond, KY >RV-7 slider/fuselage >http://rvflying.tripod.com >do not archive > >_________________________________________________________________ >Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > >_______________________________________________ >see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > -- Ronald R. Eason Sr. Pres. & CEO, KCMO Office J.R.L. Engineering Consortium Ltd. 816-468-4091, Kansas City, MO. Jim Eason V.P, 770-446-1291, Atlanta, Georgia Web Page: www.jrl-engineering.com -- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:52:40 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>Tanks Message-ID: <001001c32f4f$2e4c4ca0$5e0ca58c@tbe.com> References: <003301c32f4d$aadf1600$05462141@Beverly> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 13 Colin Rainey wrote: >> Can someone please tell me the actual product names/or part numbers to use from either Wicks, or AS&S so that I don't order the wrong stuff. I can't seem to find any product description that describes resin as vinylester, and have forgotten which foam is okay to use if necessary.<< Colin, In my slightly old AS&S catalog, it's just called "vinyl ester resin", and has a part number of 01-07350. You also need the catalyst, 01-07325. Last time I checked, Wicks didn't sell it. Make sure you're ready to use the stuff when you order it, because it has a finite shelf life once "promoted", which is how it'll be when you get it. You add "catalyst" to make it cure. Also check on availability, because last time I ordered it I had to wait about 3 or 4 months for it (which is one reason I'm still not real wild about AS&S). Properties and mixing instructions are listed in the AS&S catalog as well... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL N56ML at hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:59:18 -0400 From: "Dana Overall" To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>Tanks-some rambling thoughts. Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 14 First of all, composite vinyl ester tanks work. The aluminum tank thread just has come up on a regular basis over the 8-9 years I've been on the KRNet, thus Mark Jones' tanks. Since I have received numerous private emails and it appears several aluminum tanks are about to be started I thougt I would think out loud about some points not mentioned in a rambling mode in the documentation. Couple points if you follow the technique at krnet.org/wingtank/ remember this tank was built for Mark's outer wing panel. .032 2024 T3 alclad is a little brittle so be careful in bending the flanges. I had access to a hydraulic shear and hydraulic break. I was able to digitally dial in the thickness of the material into the break thereby obtaining a nice outside radius with not parallel cracks. I tried a piece on a hand break and found my client had the break set for much thinner material. The radius was much too tight and over stressed the material. Most hand breaks you see on the back of your local gutter man are set to bend much thinner aluminum than you will hopefully use in an aluminum tank. If you have access to a hand break, bend some test pieces to set an acceptable radius. Now for you homebrew guys. You can make a break to do the job out of a couple pieces of 2x6's. Lay the pieces on top of each other, face to face, not end to end with the bottom 2x6 extending about 3" longer on each side. Screw on a couple door hinges wide enough apart to get your longest piece of aluminum though. Screw an arm onto the top piece for leverage, use an old broom handle or whatever. Clamp the bottom 2x6 onto your workbench, slide the aluminum between the 2x6s grab your lever arm and bend the material down instead of the traditional up. The built in radius of the 2x6 edges makes for a great aluminum radius. Again though, test a piece first before you. In the case of the baffles shown in the document, bend the front flange first then the top and bottom flange can be bent with the material positioned on each end of the homebrew break. Buy you about 20 clecos, they will be indispensable in the construction. I documented the use of 1/8" AH rivets. In the bottom corners of the tanks, I cut a small piece of carbon fiber and layed it over a thin layer of proseal then proseal somemore over the carbon fiber. I did this just have a little structure to the built up area of proseal. Is it neccessay............I don't know, I just did it that way. Be sure and file, deburr and radius all corners. You don't want to build in stress areas. Scuff up all surfaces to be mated and clean with Acetone prior to using whatever sealant you choice to use. I used proseal as it was originally designed for fuel tanks. I put a rivet in about 1 1/8" apart all through the tank. I didn't want there to be an extended rivet free run where flexing could weaken the bond. That is just what I did, you may choose to do something different. If you use proseal..............do just that.........use it. Don't try and skimp. What in world do you want to save proseal for, use it and throw away the empty quart can. Better yet, shot the empty can a couple times, run over it with the car and then bury it. Don't use hardware store bought aluminum rivets. Buy the AH rivets that are made for wet applications. You may not want to deal with the aluminum enemy by Van's is usually much cheaper than the catalog suppliers on rivets and the hardware you need to build an aluminum tank. They sell to anyone. Take your time and do this right. If you seal every rivet and lay a good fillet along mated surfaces it will provide you with years of trouble free bliss. Maybe went a little overboard on the bliss thing but who wants a leaky tank. Now a question since I haven't looked on Mapquest yet. How long a drive is it from Red Oak to St. Louis. My oldest son plays college football and has a game in St. Louis the Saturday of the Gathering. If I can swing it I would love to make the gathering on Thursday and leave out early Sat. to make his game. If Steve will do it, I'll bring along some "stuff" and put on a forum on aluminum use in a KR on Friday. Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:52:21 -0500 From: Mark Jones To: 'KR builders and pilots' Subject: RE: KR>Tanks-some rambling thoughts. Message-ID: <370D915E4564D611B0530050DABB9FC25DA67D@SIC-EXCHANGE> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 15 Dana, Looks like about 350 miles. Mark Jones -----Original Message----- From: Dana Overall [mailto:bo124rs@hotmail.com] Now a question since I haven't looked on Mapquest yet. How long a drive is it from Red Oak to St. Louis. My oldest son plays college football and has a game in St. Louis the Saturday of the Gathering. If I can swing it I would love to make the gathering on Thursday and leave out early Sat. to make his game. If Steve will do it, I'll bring along some "stuff" and put on a forum on aluminum use in a KR on Friday. ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 62, Issue 1 ************************************