Received: by ant.hiwaay.net (mbox markl) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Fri Aug 8 14:01:52 2003) X-From_: krnet-bounces@mylist.net Fri Aug 8 14:01:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: from lizard.esosoft.net (lizard.esosoft.net [66.113.66.18]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78J0tAt981405 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:00:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lizard.esosoft.net) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19lCT6-00073N-01; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 12:00:04 -0700 From: krnet-request@mylist.net Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 121, Issue 1 To: krnet@mylist.net X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Sender: krnet-bounces@mylist.net Errors-To: krnet-bounces@mylist.net Message-Id: Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 12:00:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Sport Aviation Fly-in photos (ace nunye) 2. Re: KR Questions - Stick Control - Prop (Ray Fuenzalida) 3. Re: KR Questions - Stick Control - Prop (Justin) 4. Re: spin? (Brian Kraut) 5. Stop a spin by relaxing the controls???? (Ron Freiberger) 6. Re: Stop a spin by relaxing the controls???? (Steve Glover) 7. Re: spin? (Mac McConnell-Wood) 8. Ailerons / epoxy/flox (larry flesner) 9. Spins/Flat (Colin) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:24:47 -0400 From: "ace nunye" To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>Sport Aviation Fly-in photos Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 1 I would like to personally thank Mark and all the others who spend time and share the pics with us who cant attend these great events. I also hope and am gettin anxious for the day when you tell us that you are begining taxi testing. I was very encouraged to see the taxi testing photos from up north, ( the other Mark ). I just want everyone to know the pics and this net is the greatest and it has sure helped me get the extra motivation I often need. Mike, KR-2S in east Tn. >From: "Mark Langford" >Reply-To: KR builders and pilots >To: "KR builders and pilots" >Subject: KR>Sport Aviation Fly-in photos >Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 06:47:39 -0500 > >I went to the Sport Aviation Fly-in last month, and took 250 photos of wierd >little stuff that I was interested in. Oscar asked "where are the photos" >so here they are. I'm just too lazy to sit down and sift through them and >pull out the good ones, and write commentary and all that stuff, but with >Photoshop it's pretty easy for me to create a "canned" web page with nothing >but the photos. So I figure that's better than nothing, although it makes >viewing them a real pain in the butt compared to the way I usually do it. >They're at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/SAA2003/ . My apologies if I >took 5 in a row of the same thing. Since digital "film" is free, I just >keep snapping photos until I get it right. That's pretty easy when you can >take 440 high res photos without downloading to the laptop (try that with a >floppy). For that reason, if bandwidth is a problem you might just want to >head straight to the last one of a series to save yourself some time. > >I must say that I don't plan to ever miss another SAA Fly-in. It's the >who's who of experimental aviation pioneers, and some really nice airplanes >showed up. And I don't remember seeing but two "nose draggers" on the >field! > >I took a few at OSH too, and will try to do a proper web page for them >eventually. The KR brats and beer thing was a great sucess. Thanks to >Mark and Dana for the effort! The forum and the KR dinner were the main >reason I went to Osh this year. Next year maybe I'll fly... > >Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL >N56ML at hiwaay.net >see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > >_______________________________________________ >see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with [1]MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. References 1. http://g.msn.com/8HMFENCA/2749??PS= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:48:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Fuenzalida To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>KR Questions - Stick Control - Prop Message-ID: <20030807204800.66383.qmail@web42002.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <67.165ae6c8.2c63b0db@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 2 What a coincidence! I also am picking up a partially completed kit this weekend. Although mine is in Florida and I am bringing it back to New Orleans. I have just started reading the KR emails, so I hope to get up to speed soon. Good luck on yours. Ray JSMONDAY@aol.com wrote: Looks like it will be official.. I will be a KR Builder by the end of the weekend, I am purchasing a partially completed kit and will be hauling it home this weekend! A couple of quick questions from a beginning KR builder!- >From the article Mark Langford put up on his website (I think by Neal) - it appears that the stick control is over sensitive - 3/4" in either direction is all that is needed to fly the KR most of the time. It would seem that it would make sense to shorten the hinge length/bellcrank distance so it would not be so sensitive, or have a progressive linkage if you couldn't get full motion out of the ailerons in a reasonable motion length... Also on the corvair aircraft engine, it seems like the RPMs for aircraft are lower and a higher RPM could yield a lot more horsepower. I understand the prop tip speed limitation, but would it make sense to have a shorter diameter prop with more blades? would that allow higher rpm and still obtain the same bite, without exceeding the maximum efficient tip speed??? I see the composite propellers often could have up to six blades - was just thinking about four! John Monday Laguna Beach CA jsmonday@aol.com _______________________________________________ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.From larry.capps@comcast.net Thu Aug 07 14:38:23 2003 Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net ([216.148.227.85]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19ksSl-000OQD-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 14:38:23 -0700 Received: from schpankme (12-251-66-163.client.attbi.com[12.251.66.163](untrusted sender)) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <20030807213904014002p6pre>; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:39:04 +0000 From: "Larry A Capps" To: "KR Builders List \(E-mail\)" Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:39:50 -0500 Message-ID: <001601c35d2c$6ebd26a0$0400a8c0@schpankme> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Subject: KR>KR spin? X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: larry.capps@comcast.net, KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: A flat spin requires an aft CG and the application of power and opposite aileron once established in a conventional spin. Recovery 'can be' initiated by reducing the power and returning the controls/aileron to neutral. Regards, Larry A Capps Naperville, IL -----Original Message----- said vertical stab. might be too small to recover from a spin. What if you get into a spin? Are you going to accept you will become a smoking hole? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:59:11 -0500 From: "Justin" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>KR Questions - Stick Control - Prop Message-ID: <001601c35d8b$56f8f760$b5dc1818@computer> References: <67.165ae6c8.2c63b0db@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 3 About that corvair. Go here http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair/index.html Keep in mind that WW found that 100 and 120HP is the max HP it can produce and be reliable. I would like to have a CS prop and be able to spin the engine faster for take off and such but time will tell. Justin N116JW www.geocities.com/attngrabber14/Home ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:40 AM Subject: KR>KR Questions - Stick Control - Prop > Looks like it will be official.. I will be a KR Builder by the end of the > weekend, I am purchasing a partially completed kit and will be hauling it home > this weekend! > > A couple of quick questions from a beginning KR builder!- > > >From the article Mark Langford put up on his website (I think by Neal) - it > appears that the stick control is over sensitive - 3/4" in either direction is > all that is needed to fly the KR most of the time. It would seem that it > would make sense to shorten the hinge length/bellcrank distance so it would not be > so sensitive, or have a progressive linkage if you couldn't get full motion > out of the ailerons in a reasonable motion length... > > > Also on the corvair aircraft engine, it seems like the RPMs for aircraft are > lower and a higher RPM could yield a lot more horsepower. I understand the > prop tip speed limitation, but would it make sense to have a shorter diameter > prop with more blades? would that allow higher rpm and still obtain the same > bite, without exceeding the maximum efficient tip speed??? I see the composite > propellers often could have up to six blades - was just thinking about four! > > John Monday > Laguna Beach CA > jsmonday@aol.com > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 06:56:51 -0400 From: Brian Kraut To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>spin? Message-ID: <3F323073.7000605@earthlink.net> References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 4 I have heard from one person that went into a spin in his KR that he could not recover until he grabbed the bottom of the instrument panel and pulled himself as far forward as he could to move the CG forward. skphil@charter.net wrote: > Jim said vertical stab. might be too small to recover from a spin. > What if you get into a spin? Are you going to accept you will become > a smoking hole? > What can builders do to correct the problem? i.e. larger feathers? > I haven't started building Boat yet so I can make changes very easy. > Still building hardware and putting up. > > Staying current in Auburn Al. > Steven Phillabaum > skphil@charter.net > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 23:24:16 -0500 From: "Ron Freiberger" To: "KR Builders and Flyers" Subject: KR>Stop a spin by relaxing the controls???? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 5 Larry Capps said, "A flat spin requires an aft CG and the application of power and opposite aileron once established in a conventional spin. Recovery 'can be' initiated by reducing the power and returning the controls/aileron to neutral." Works OK in the Cubs and Champs I flew. Then, I did it in my FlyBaby, and nothing happened. Correct spin recovery is opposite rudder 'til rotation stops, and forward elevator. I'm glad I understood that after a brief moment, although I had never experienced it. Also, n the case of KRs, weve heard over and over that the initial published CG limit is too far aft. Work your way up to it AFTER proper training. A properly trained pilot WILL NOT let a spin initiate on approach to landing. Ron Freiberger ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:25:20 -0700 From: "Steve Glover" To: , "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>Stop a spin by relaxing the controls???? Message-ID: <000501c35d6d$7630bd70$5af5fea9@IntelliSpec> References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 6 I can vouch for the published CG limit not being correct. Richard Shirley and I flew my Standard KR-2 at 2" forward of the "published" aft limit and it was not fun... I'm glad Richard was there to fly the thing. I didn't expect the response and wasn't interested in working on it... I was glad to get back on the ground. We decided the best course of action was to move the engine forward 3". Nearly everything is complete with the change over. New cables, wiring, cowling extension (not pretty but functional), and rebuilt exhaust. Still have minor baffling, hook up fuel and flight instruments. It would have been done by now but I just coudn't stand the panel, so I made a new one. I forgot how much I "love" wiring. Everything should be finished this weekend and will do a new weight and balance. I am still hopeful about making the Gathering. Steve Glover Rancho Santa Margarita, Ca. kr02g@earthlink.net Also, n the case of KRs, weve > heard over and over that the initial published CG limit is too far aft. > Work your way up to it AFTER proper training. > > Ron Freiberger > > > > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:41:34 +0100 From: "Mac McConnell-Wood" To: , "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>spin? Message-ID: <01fc01c35d99$d997f5a0$8de5403e@tinypc> References: <3F323073.7000605@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 7 Hi Brian, and all.-- I heard that too -from a builder in Harare, Zimbabwe.Reckoned he climbed onto the combing to get out of a flat spin! I've lost his address but he's mine of information. He developed an undercarriage using m/cycle spring damped struts. Wonder if anyone knows his address. First name's Clive. And on the subject of spin,- what is the latest consensus on C of G range for a standard KR2? Cheers Mac ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Kraut" To: "KR builders and pilots" Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 11:56 AM Subject: Re: KR>spin? > I have heard from one person that went into a spin in his KR that he > could not recover until he grabbed the bottom of the instrument panel > and pulled himself as far forward as he could to move the CG forward. > > skphil@charter.net wrote: > > > Jim said vertical stab. might be too small to recover from a spin. > > What if you get into a spin? Are you going to accept you will become > > a smoking hole? > > What can builders do to correct the problem? i.e. larger feathers? > > I haven't started building Boat yet so I can make changes very easy. > > Still building hardware and putting up. > > > > Staying current in Auburn Al. > > Steven Phillabaum > > skphil@charter.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 07:45:34 -0500 From: larry flesner To: KR builders and pilots Subject: KR>Ailerons / epoxy/flox Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20030808074534.007bc100@pop.midwest.net> In-Reply-To: <3F322075.000001.02932@Computer> References: <002501c35c7c$18c85c70$a85f570c@donnas> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 8 >If you attach with rivets, I have a method for that, otherwise, proceed >with the flox attachment process that you have been doing. For that process > I would use a disposable pan head, 8-32, a little longer that the >permanent screws, to hold it in place while it cures. >Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Nylon bolts the same size as the steel bolts you intend to use work great for holding blind nuts or nuts buried in foam in place while the epoxy/flox sets up. They hold the position, keep the resin from getting into the threads, and the resin does not stick so they are (usually) simple to remove. Nylon hardware with a bolt head, rather then a screw head, works best as it gives you more gripping power. Your results may vary! :-) Larry (KR painted, wings going on today) Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:00:00 -0400 From: "Colin" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: KR>Spins/Flat Message-ID: <001901c35db5$5ba79940$05462141@Beverly> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 9 Netters, Flat spins DO NOT occur due to particular inputs from the pilot but = rather as a response from the aircraft AFTER being stalled with too far = aft CG. A spin is a non aerodynamic maneuver where the aircraft is NOT = flying, and is the result of an aggravated stall. The rotation of the = aircraft is determined by how the aircraft is uncoordinated, AND where = the CG is, since the CG is where all three axis of motion ALWAYS meet. = Since the KR2 has such as short coupled empennage, resulting in an even = shorter arm with an aft CG, intentional spins should only be attempted = by those with a great deal of experience in this type of configuration, = and like all phases of the test program conducted with care. Personally = I don't understand why anyone would want to spin a KR since that is not = what it was designed for and spins are not anywhere close to maneuvers = in the "normal" flight regime. Spinning a KR is akin to spin testing an = MD80, or 757. Why? Colin Rainey KR2(td) crainey1@cfl.rr.com Sanford, Florida FLY SAFE!!!!From cartera@cuug.ab.ca Fri Aug 08 07:53:34 2003 Received: from [192.75.191.21] (helo=mail.cuug.ab.ca) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19l8cY-0004tZ-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 07:53:34 -0700 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.cuug.ab.ca (8.12.2/8.12.2) id h78EsGpA007903 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:54:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from UNKNOWN(192.75.191.117), claiming to be "cuug.ab.ca" via SMTP by mail.cuug.ab.ca, id smtpdqT7784; Fri Aug 8 08:54:14 2003 Message-ID: <3F33BA59.8060707@cuug.ab.ca> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 08:57:29 -0600 From: cartera User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>Spins/Flat References: <001901c35db5$5ba79940$05462141@Beverly> In-Reply-To: <001901c35db5$5ba79940$05462141@Beverly> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Hello Gang, I will tell you why one would want to spin the KR, because it's fun. Very seldom did I fly without doing a spin of two, it's fun. All this scary fear mongering has to stop there is absolutely nothing wrong with a properly built KR and a fun airplane to fly. My KR has been rolled and spun many, many times. My CG was always forward because I cut off the aft 4" in the balance envelope have 1.5" extension on the motor mount. Flat spins are just a no brainer because it don't happen except for ab nitio scary types. I can say this being a high time commercial pilot and some of the readings I have seen on the net are just unbelievable, there is nothing wrong with the KR's just the nut at the control column. My KR is stock plans built and no increases in size of rudder or elavator and there never been a problem in any maneuver, just in the minds of the inexperienced. I built every part of the KR except for the the canopy, gear legs and the spinner. It still flies like an angel and every weekend fly 80 miles over the Pacific. There is no magic to flying we just have added another dimension (vertical) and of course you can't pull over to the side of the road if the engine quits. Give yourselves a break and build, build and fly. Happy Flying and Take Care! Colleen wrote: > Netters, > Flat spins DO NOT occur due to particular inputs from the pilot but rather as a response from the aircraft AFTER being stalled with too far aft CG. A spin is a non aerodynamic maneuver where the aircraft is NOT flying, and is the result of an aggravated stall. The rotation of the aircraft is determined by how the aircraft is uncoordinated, AND where the CG is, since the CG is where all three axis of motion ALWAYS meet. Since the KR2 has such as short coupled empennage, resulting in an even shorter arm with an aft CG, intentional spins should only be attempted by those with a great deal of experience in this type of configuration, and like all phases of the test program conducted with care. Personally I don't understand why anyone would want to spin a KR since that is not what it was designed for and spins are not anywhere close to maneuvers in the "normal" flight regime. Spinning a KR is akin to spin testing an MD80, or 757. Why? > Colin Rainey KR2(td) > crainey1@cfl.rr.com > Sanford, Florida > FLY SAFE!!!!_______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > -- Adrian VE6AFY cartera@cuug.ab.ca ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 121, Issue 1 *************************************