From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net on behalf of krnet-request@mylist.net Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 10:11 AM To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 147, Issue 1 Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: KR Aileron control at low speeds? (larry severson) 2. Re: KR Aileron control at low speeds? (larry severson) 3. Fw: tape goo (NORMAN SEEL) 4. Re: VW/Zenith carb (Phil Spurr) 5. ELT (Bob Sauer) 6. Winglets (Colin) 7. Re: Winglets (larry severson) 8. Willie Wilson/Red Oak (larry flesner) 9. wing washout? (larry flesner) 10. glide ratio (larry flesner) 11. address change 12. Brakes (Serge F. Vidal) 13. RE: Brakes (Darren Pond) 14. Re: assembly plant (Mark Langford) 15. Re: Winglets (Dana Overall) 16. RE: Brakes (Serge F. Vidal) 17. Winglets - a few facts (very large) (Steven Eberhart) 18. winglets (Oscar Zuniga) 19. Re: winglets (Steven Eberhart) 20. Re: assembly plant (gerald locker) 21. Re: assembly plant (Mark Langford) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 12:54:13 -0700 From: larry severson To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>Re: KR Aileron control at low speeds? Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030902125205.02912558@pop-server.socal.rr.com> In-Reply-To: <20030901175625.7416.qmail@operamail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 1 Yes, you are supposed to recover from a stall or spin with the rudder; however, the full length (almost) aileron combined with the tiny short coupled rudder on the KR makes standard actions not necessarily the best. At 06:56 PM 9/1/2003 +0100, you wrote: >Has anyone looked at the SIZE of a KR aileron... >I can't believe there are problems with aileron response >at low speeds... the darn aileron is nearly the length >of the entire wingspan! > > Besides at REAL low speeds, i.e. Slow flight near >the stall... if a wing drops, you are supposed to use >rudder instead of ailearon to prevent stalling a wing. > >Am I missing somthing... Of cousre I haven't FLOWN >my KR yet... so I am totally unaware of my birds actual >flight characteristics. >-- >____________________________________________ >http://www.operamail.com >Get OperaMail Premium today - USD 29.99/year > > >Powered by Outblaze > >_______________________________________________ >see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html Larry Severson Fountain Valley, CA 92708 (714) 968-9852 larry2@socal.rr.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 13:03:43 -0700 From: larry severson To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>KR Aileron control at low speeds? Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030902130251.02904350@pop-server.socal.rr.com> In-Reply-To: <3F54758C.00000F.03808@Computer> References: <3.0.6.32.20030901194341.007c5ad0@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 2 Basic responses: aileron - roll, then turn rudder - turn then roll together - coordinated turn At 06:48 AM 9/2/2003 -0400, you wrote: >RE: Dropping the wing > > > >I noticed that on one of my first flights on my first KR. However, it >was the same wing as the rudder. If, while crusing along, I sharply >applied one of the rudders, the wing on that side would sharply drop. >Because that wing is effectively backing up with respect to the other >wing, I guess you should expect it to drop. > > > >One of the nice things about the KR is, that while in normal cruise, >you really don't need rudder input. > > > >Larry, > > > >Did Willie say if he and his wife are coming this year? > > > >N64KR > > > >Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC > > > >DanRH@KR-Builder.org > > > >See you in Red Oak - 2003 > > > >See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic > >See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org > > _______________________________________________ >see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html Larry Severson Fountain Valley, CA 92708 (714) 968-9852 larry2@socal.rr.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:05:09 -0700 From: "NORMAN SEEL" To: "Krnet" Subject: KR>Fw: tape goo Message-ID: <006901c371af$0a30ed60$06093f04@dslverizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 3 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: NORMAN SEEL=20 To: Corvaircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 4:59 PM Subject: tape goo Paint thinner takes the goo right off. Norm Seel Brandon, FL norman.seel@verizon.netFrom SRMAKISH@aol.com Tue Sep 02 14:04:26 2003 Received: from imo-m08.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.163]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19uIKA-0007iZ-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 14:04:26 -0700 Received: from SRMAKISH@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id g.bc.3cedfb17 (4312) for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:06:13 -0400 (EDT) From: SRMAKISH@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:06:12 EDT To: krnet@mylist.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6015 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1b3 Subject: KR>subaru vs corvair X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Hi Justin. The speeds I got were almost identical. 165 mph cruise, about 180 balls to the wall flat out. The difference is the soob burned about 7 gph at cruise, the corvair seems to burn 4.8 to 5.5 gph at cruise. I am flying with the same prop that the soob turned and both engines were about 100 HP. The corvair climbs better and seems to get on the cam quicker and produces tork a lot quicker. The engine all up flying weight soob 247 lbs, corvair 250 lbs. I am sure I could cruise up near 180 if the plane was 100 lbs lighter. KEEP IT LIGHT is what Ken said and over the years it has somehow put on weight. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 21:15:11 +0100 From: Phil Spurr To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>VW/Zenith carb Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <352059.1062476285339.JavaMail.nobody@grover.psp.pas.earthl ink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 4 Hi Brian Not sure if the Zenith carb is the same wherever you are as it would be here in the UK, where it is, or at least was, a popular carb found in many cars, sometimes also known as the Stromberg CD and sometimes mistaken for the SU, both of which are on many aero VW engines. Both can be identified by the black plastic knob about 1/2" across at the top of the suction housing which unscrews with the fingers. If it is this one, you sound to have a common problem with these carbs which is either connected with a leaking diaphragm, or incorrect oil or oil level in the dashpot. I can give more details about the carb and how to hopefully cure the problem if it sounds like the same model. Regards Phil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 16:27:36 -0700 From: "Bob Sauer" To: "kr" Subject: KR>ELT Message-ID: <00e101c371a9$cafa0320$fe393818@ph.cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 5 Has anyone used the AK450 ELT by Ameri-King and what can you report = about its quality, how does the manufacturer stand behind it, etc. Thanks From: resauer@cox.netFrom crainey1@cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 02 16:54:37 2003 Received: from ms-smtp-01.tampabay.rr.com ([65.32.1.43]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19uKyr-000BNJ-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 16:54:37 -0700 Received: from Beverly (5.70.33.65.cfl.rr.com [65.33.70.5]) by ms-smtp-01.tampabay.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with SMTP id h82NuRS8004598 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:56:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000b01c371ae$1b4f0ec0$05462141@Beverly> From: "Colin" To: Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:58:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1b3 Subject: KR>ELT X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Bob and netters, I have an Ameri-King 450 ELT and am quite happy with it. It is also = standard equipment in all the Cessna aircraft that I fly daily. Colin Rainey KR2(td) crainey1@cfl.rr.com Sanford, Florida FLY SAFE!!!!From Goreebethray@aol.com Tue Sep 02 18:33:29 2003 Received: from imo-m06.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.161]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19uMWX-000Dai-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 18:33:29 -0700 Received: from Goreebethray@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id g.99.3c7d6fb7 (3996) for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:35:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Goreebethray@aol.com Message-ID: <99.3c7d6fb7.2c869f54@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:35:16 EDT To: krnet@mylist.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1b3 Subject: KR>Fuel Sight Guage X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: A few years ago in an edition of the KR Newaletter, There was a picture or drawing of a fuel sight guage that had a series of lines about a quarter inch wide, alternating dark and white lines that were at a 45 degree angle. This was placed behind the sight guage and made the fuel show up better. Does anyone know the issue date or number or can fill in some of the blanks for me> Ray goreebethray@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:25:24 -0400 From: "Colin" To: Subject: KR>Winglets Message-ID: <001d01c371c2$a1eeed10$05462141@Beverly> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 6 Correct me if I am wrong gang but I have always been taught that = winglets were designed by NASA to reduce/eliminate induced drag caused = by high pressure air attempting to flow around the wingtip instead of = smoothly out the trailing edge from the underside. These wing tip = vortices cause disrupted airflow on the upper surface increasing drag = and reducing lift. The winglets relocate the vortices to a none lift = portion of the wing, resulting in no disruption to the boundary layer = flow, effectively increasing the lift area without having to increase = the wing area, just add the tip. I much cheaper fix then adding more = wing area etc... Colin Rainey KR2(td) crainey1@cfl.rr.com Sanford, Florida FLY SAFE!!!!From JStephenz@aol.com Tue Sep 02 19:31:13 2003 Received: from imo-m06.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.161]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19uNQP-000Exe-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 19:31:13 -0700 Received: from JStephenz@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id g.11.18327bba (4222) for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:33:00 -0400 (EDT) From: JStephenz@aol.com Message-ID: <11.18327bba.2c86acdc@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:33:00 EDT To: krnet@mylist.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10582 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1b3 Subject: KR>belly boards X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Does anyone have any advice on the belly board flaps? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 20:07:27 -0700 From: larry severson To: KR builders and pilots , krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>Winglets Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030902200715.02938df8@pop-server.socal.rr.com> In-Reply-To: <001d01c371c2$a1eeed10$05462141@Beverly> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 7 accurate! At 10:25 PM 9/2/2003 -0400, Colin wrote: >Correct me if I am wrong gang but I have always been taught that >winglets >were designed by NASA to reduce/eliminate induced drag caused by high >pressure air attempting to flow around the wingtip instead of smoothly out >the trailing edge from the underside. These wing tip vortices cause >disrupted airflow on the upper surface increasing drag and reducing lift. >The winglets relocate the vortices to a none lift portion of the wing, >resulting in no disruption to the boundary layer flow, effectively >increasing the lift area without having to increase the wing area, just >add the tip. I much cheaper fix then adding more wing area etc... >Colin Rainey KR2(td) >crainey1@cfl.rr.com >Sanford, Florida >FLY SAFE!!!!_______________________________________________ >see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html Larry Severson Fountain Valley, CA 92708 (714) 968-9852 larry2@socal.rr.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 22:53:13 -0500 From: larry flesner To: KR builders and pilots Subject: KR>Willie Wilson/Red Oak Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20030902225313.0080e860@pop.midwest.net> In-Reply-To: <3F54758C.00000F.03808@Computer> References: <3.0.6.32.20030901194341.007c5ad0@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 8 >Did Willie say if he and his wife are coming this year? >Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I'm sorry to say that Willie and Margaret will not make Red Oak this year. Willie's nephew is getting married that weekend. For those of you that have not met Willie and Margaret you're missing a real treat. Besides spending time with them at the Gatherings I've had the honor of them spending several day at our home when they made a trip to the states about two years ago. A good time was had by all. Willie has enough stories about his years with British Airways to write a book and it's a real hoot to hear him tell them. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 22:53:33 -0500 From: larry flesner To: serge.vidal@ate-international.com, KR builders and pilots Subject: KR>wing washout? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20030902225333.0080e7e0@pop.midwest.net> In-Reply-To: <000001c3717c$645ff700$2c0101c0@ate.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20030901194341.007c5ad0@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 9 >ZS-WEC is stock, as per plans. I don't understand what you mean by 3 >degrees washout, but if it is in the plans, mine has got >it.Aerodynamically, my KR is perfectly standard, except that the CG has >been pushed forward a bit. Serge Vidal ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Serge, The next time you approach your KR from the front look at the wings from root to tip. You should notice that the angle of attack at the tip is less than at the root by three degrees. It doesn't sound like much but it is very noticable. More technically, when built to plans, with the fuselage level, the chord line of the wing center section ribs should be at 3 1/2 degrees and the 36 inch tip rib chord line should be at 1/2 degree. This causes the inboard area of the wing to stall before the outboard section stalls and helps to maintain aileron control through the stall. Many builders think the 3 1/2 degrees A of A is excessive as well as the 3 degrees washout and have built their KR's with less. They ALL seem to get off the ground, get to where they are going, and land safely. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 22:53:43 -0500 From: larry flesner To: KR builders and pilots Subject: KR>glide ratio Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20030902225343.0080ec20@pop.midwest.net> In-Reply-To: <162.25104a0a.2c850d7a@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 10 I have >had my bird to 14,500 feet and still had good response and climbing at >300 >fpm indicating 120 mph. It sure was cold up there. I put the engine to idle, set >the speed at 95 mph and glided back to fort Lauderdale exec which was >70 >miles away. >Steve ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Steve, That would be a 25.5 to 1 glide ratio ! Are you sure you idle wasn't set a bit fast !! :-) Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 05:20:15 GMT From: edb78@netzero.net To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>address change Message-ID: <20030902.222018.24817.167490@webmail10.lax.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 11 new e-mail address is edb78@netzero.com old address will not work after 9/10/03 ED Ed Blocher Santa Rosa Beach, FL edb78@netzero.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:27:43 +0100 From: "Serge F. Vidal" To: "'KR builders and pilots'" Subject: KR>Brakes Message-ID: <000101c371ff$11b660b0$2c0101c0@ate.com> In-Reply-To: <20030902.115443.2424.0.klw1953@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 12 I have a better setup: motorcycle brakes, mounted the "cheapie" option (brake handles clamped fore of the main spar), and I have more than enough braking power, even if the KR weights twice as much as a loaded motorcycle! Serge Vidal KR2 ZS-WEC Tunis, Tunisia -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces+svidal=icon.co.za@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces+svidal=icon.co.za@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Kenneth L Wiltrout Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 4:55 PM To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>Busy KR weekend I've got the more expensive Cleveland brake setup and I can't hold mine at full throttle either. These brakes are made for go karts that weigh 100lbs or so, not airplanes that gross in excess of 1000lbs. But your correct when you spoke about not pushing to hard as that load goes to the rudder via the cables.-----------------------Good luck!! On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:28:53 -0400 (GMT) Brian Kraut writes: > At long last my KR is at the airport. Mark, you can move the link for > my site from "KRs Under Construction" to the highly coveted "Completed > KRs" listing. I will have new pictures on my site as soon as I get a > chance to update it. I believe the KR is actually smiling now that it > is around other planes. > > Initial taxi tests have been very good. I am very happy that I > decided to put on the Matco tailwheel. It taxies around easier than > any other plane I have taxied. The Matco wheel also comes unlocked on > a turn with a little differential braking so you can spin it right > around if you want to. Visibility is pretty good. I can lean to the > left and right and see nearly straight in front of me. I can also > lean forward and see down the taxiway directly in front, another > benefit of the taller Matco wheel and the bent leaf springs. > > > I have the Great Plains hydraulic brakes. I found out that they will > not hold the plane at a full power runup and they are less effective > at stopping the plane than what I am used to. Some of this may be due > to them not being broken in yet. I have also heard that you don't > want brakes that are too effective to keep you from nosing over. I > could stop a lot faster if I really had to, but the brakes are on the > rudder pedals and I don't want to pus too hard and break the rudder > horns. > > I did figure out that a canopy that can be locked partially opened is > essential in Florida in the summer. That is going to be one of my > first at the airport mods. That bubbles is not a greenhouse, it is a > sauna. > > My plane has foam between the stringers and one thin layer of glass > from the firewall to the seat back. I have some light weight > automotive upholstery on the inside also. This makes it very quiet > inside compared to another KR I was in. I would highly recomend this > to everyone else. It probably only adds two pounds to the weight. It > should also help a lot keeping the plane warm on a cold day, not to > mention that it looks good. > > I did have a minor problem Saturday when the engine died at the end of > the runway after a medium speed taxi run. I didn't quite have the > idle mixture or speed adjusted right and the engine died when I pulled > the power to idle. Since my battery sat dead for a long time it was > on its last legs and wouldn't restart the engine when it was hot. I > killed the battery and had to pull the plane all the way back from the > end of a 2,500' runway. Luckily, the KR pulls fairly easily. I have > put in a new battery and adjusted the idle mixture and speed and > everything is fine now. > > I have more to ramble on, but will change topic tags. > > Many thanks to fellow KR Netter Art Bruce for helping me get the plane > to the airport and putting on the wings. > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 06:52:03 -0400 From: "Darren Pond" To: , "KR builders and pilots" Subject: RE: KR>Brakes Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000101c371ff$11b660b0$2c0101c0@ate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 13 What are you using for brakes? Disc? Drum? Any idea what motor cycle they are from? Hydraulic I assume. Darren Pond I have a better setup: motorcycle brakes, mounted the "cheapie" option (brake handles clamped fore of the main spar), and I have more than enough braking power, even if the KR weights twice as much as a loaded motorcycle! Serge Vidal KR2 ZS-WEC Tunis, Tunisia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 06:31:43 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant Message-ID: <01e401c3720e$f3769790$5e0ca58c@tbe.com> References: <20030902015249.25212.qmail@web20510.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 14 Just FYI, "gerald locker" has unsubscribed from KRnet. He sure was entertaining, though... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL N56ML at hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 07:32:46 -0400 From: "Dana Overall" To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>Winglets Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 15 >From: "Colin" >Correct me if I am wrong gang but I have always been taught that >winglets >were designed by NASA to reduce/eliminate induced drag caused by high >pressure air attempting to flow around the wingtip instead of smoothly out >the trailing edge from the underside. effectively increasing the lift area >without having to increase the wing area, just add the tip. I much cheaper >fix then adding more wing area etc... >Colin Rainey KR2(td) Colin, during my commercial training that is what I learned. Their goal was to achieve what they called a "perpetual wing". Their definition of the end of the wing was not the tip but that point on the wing where lateral separation occurred in what you described. As I recall this point varied with speed, more square area at lower speed, less at higher speeds and was much more pronouned with tapered wings, ie., gliders not Cessnas, where the tips were much more narrow than the root. This point may make the addition of winglets to the KR a moot issue with it's relatively short wing and wide chord on the tip. The addition of winglets provided them with a means to definitively determine a constant square area of wing lift. Once again, I know enough about this to be dangerous................as I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night:-) Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit ordered!! Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive >From: "Colin" >Correct me if I am wrong gang but I have always been taught that >winglets >were designed by NASA to reduce/eliminate induced drag caused by high >pressure air attempting to flow around the wingtip instead of smoothly out >the trailing edge from the underside. effectively increasing the lift area >without having to increase the wing area, just add the tip. I much cheaper >fix then adding more wing area etc... >Colin Rainey KR2(td) _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:41:58 +0100 From: "Serge F. Vidal" To: "'KR builders and pilots'" Subject: RE: KR>Brakes Message-ID: <000301c37210$b57988b0$2c0101c0@ate.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 16 Disk brakes, of course, with hydraulic actuators. I'm told they were taken from a Suzuki Katana. This being said, it's no rocket science to adapt almost any motorcycle disk brake to an aircraft wheel! It just takes a couple of brackets Serge Vidal -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Darren Pond Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 11:52 AM To: serge.vidal@ate-international.com; KR builders and pilots Subject: RE: KR>Brakes What are you using for brakes? Disc? Drum? Any idea what motor cycle they are from? Hydraulic I assume. Darren Pond I have a better setup: motorcycle brakes, mounted the "cheapie" option (brake handles clamped fore of the main spar), and I have more than enough braking power, even if the KR weights twice as much as a loaded motorcycle! Serge Vidal KR2 ZS-WEC Tunis, Tunisia _______________________________________________ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 07:52:11 -0500 From: Steven Eberhart To: KR builders and pilots Subject: KR>Winglets - a few facts (very large) Message-ID: <3F55E3FB.20307@newtech.com> References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 17 I have watched the discussion about winglets and thought a little information might be helpful. The following was scanned from the textbook Aircraft Design: A Conceptual Approach by Daniel P. Raymer, American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics and run through an OCR program: Wing Tips Wing-tip shape has two effects upon subsonic aerodynamic performance. The tip shape affects the aircraft wetted area, but only to a small extent. A far more important effect is the influence the tip shape has upon the lateral spacing of the tip vortices. This is largely determined by the ease with which the higher-pressure air on the bottom of the wing can "escape" around the tip to the top of the wing. A smoothly-rounded tip (when seen nose-on) easily permits the air to flow around the tip. A tip with a sharp edge (when seen nose-on) makes it more difficult, thus reducing the induced drag. Most of the new low-drag wing tips use some form of sharp edge. In fact, even a simple cut-off tip offers less drag than a rounded-off tip, due to the sharp edges where the upper and lower surfaces end. (Fig. 4.27). The most widely used low-drag wing tip is the Hoerner wingtip (developed by S. Hoerner, Ref. 8). This is a sharp-edged wing tip with the upper surface continuing the upper surface of the wing. The lower surface is "undercut" and canted approximately 30 deg to the horizontal. The lower surface may also be "undercambered" (i.e., concave). The "drooped" and "upswept" wing tips are similar to the Hoerner wing tip except that the tip is curved upwards or downwards to increase the effective span without increasing the actual span. This effect is similar to that employed by endplates, as discussed below. The sweep of the wing tip also affects the drag. The tip vortex tends to be located approximately at the trailing-edge of the wing tip, so an aft-swept wing tip, with a greater trailing edge span, tends to have lower drag. However, the aft-swept wing tip tends to increase the wing torsional loads. A cut-off, forward-swept wing tip is sometimes used for supersonic aircraft. The tip is cut off at an angle equal to the supersonic Mach-cone angle, because the area of the Wing within the shock cone formed at the wing tip will contribute little to the lift. Also, this tip shape will reduce the torsional loads applied to the wing. The F-15 fighter uses such a cut-off tip for both wings and horizontal tails. Induced drag is caused by the higher-pressure air at the bottom of the wing escaping around the wing tip to the top of the wing. An obvious way to prevent this would be to mount a vertical plate at the wing tip. The endplate effect has been known almost since the dawn of flight, but has been seen rarely. The wetted area of the endplate itself creates drag. Also, an endplated wing has an effective span increase of only about 80% of the actual span increase caused by adding the endplates' height to the wing span. However, endplates can be useful when span must be limited. An advanced version of the endplate can offer lower drag than an equal area increase in wing span. The "winglet," designed by NASA's R. Whitcomb, gets an additional drag reduction by using the energy available in the tip vortex. The winglet is cambered and twisted so that the rotating vortex flow at the wing tip creates a lift force on the winglet that has a forward component. This forward lift component acts as a "negative" drag, reducing the total wing drag. A properly designed winglet can potentially provide an effective span increase up to double that bought by adding the winglets' height to the wing span. Winglets provide the greatest benefit when the wing tip vortex is strong, so a low-aspect-ratio wing will see more advantage from the use of winglets than an already-efficient high-aspect-ratio wing. One problem with winglets is that they add weight behind the elastic axis of the wing, which can aggravate flutter tendencies. Also, the twist and camber of a winglet must be optimized for one velocity. At other than design speed, the winglet will provide less benefit. For these and other reasons, winglets tend to be used more as add-on devices for existing wings requiring a little more efficiency without major redesign. When an all-new wing is being designed it is usually better to rely upon increased aspect ratio to improve aerody~iamic efficiency. This is not always true so a trade study should be conducted sometime during the conceptual design effort. Steve Eberhart mailto:newtech@newtech.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 08:16:24 -0500 From: "Oscar Zuniga" To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>winglets Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 18 Langford wrote- >What I'd like to see is winglets retrofitted to an existing plane, and >then >report back on the differences in all flight regimes. Hey, maybe Troy Petteway's plane will have a little mishap requiring him to rebuild his wings again, and we'll see the winglets?! However, the guy is such an avid experimenter that I wouldn't put it past him to pull an all-nighter with his skunk works buddies and slap some winglets on his plane just like that. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 08:40:20 -0500 From: Steven Eberhart To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>winglets Message-ID: <3F55EF44.30108@newtech.com> References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 19 Hi Oscar, Ashok Gopalarthnam, who designed the new KR airfoils, developed a program much like what he used to design the airfoils to design the contours of intersecting surfaces. An example that he used in his paper was winglet design. I would love to see him do his magic on the wing fuselage junction. I think there is more to be gained in reducing the drag caused by the less than optimum shaping of the fuselage and its intersection with the wing than there is in adding winglets. I think winglets would provide benefits in reducing drag in the climb and at high altitudes. Not exactly where KR's spend most of their time. Now, putting winglets on an RV - that is something to think about :-) Hey Dana, that black RV would look real cool tooling around the flight levels with winglets just like the big boys :-) Steve Eberhart mailto:newtech@newtech.com RV-7A - finally working on the second wing panel Oscar Zuniga wrote: > Langford wrote- > >> What I'd like to see is winglets retrofitted to an existing plane, >> and >> then report back on the differences in all flight regimes. > > > Hey, maybe Troy Petteway's plane will have a little mishap requiring > him > to rebuild his wings again, and we'll see the winglets?! However, the > guy is such an avid experimenter that I wouldn't put it past him to pull > an all-nighter with his skunk works buddies and slap some winglets on > his plane just like that. > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:49:18 -0700 (PDT) From: gerald locker To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant Message-ID: <20030903144918.1548.qmail@web20513.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <01e401c3720e$f3769790$5e0ca58c@tbe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 20 --- Mark Langford wrote: > Just FYI, "gerald locker" > has unsubscribed from > KRnet. He sure was entertaining, though... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL > N56ML at hiwaay.net > see KR2S project N56ML at > http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford Dear Mr. Langford, Would you be so kind as to tell me why I am unsubscribed from this group? I certainly did not do so and wonder why after one letter, and over 60 responses, of which most was helpful, I am no longer a part of this group? Thank you for your assistance, Gerald Locker > > > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:12:53 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>assembly plant Message-ID: <01fa01c3723e$9cb12620$5e0ca58c@tbe.com> References: <20030903144918.1548.qmail@web20513.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 21 Gerald Locker wrote: > Dear Mr. Langford, > > Would you be so kind as to tell me why I am > unsubscribed from this group? I certainly did not do > so and wonder why after one letter, and over 60 > responses, of which most was helpful, I am no longer a > part of this group? > > Thank you for your assistance, Oh, I guess you're not unsubscribed after all. I didn't deliberately unsubscribe you, but upon checking the list, I didn't see your email address, so I thought you'd unsubscribed yourself. That's why I thought it was noteworthy, that you'd gone as fast as you appeared. Obviously, I was wrong about that, as your post makes it clear that you've not unsubscribed... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL N56ML at hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 147, Issue 1 *************************************