From: krnet-bounces+johnbou=speakeasy.net@mylist.net on behalf of krnet-request@mylist.net Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 12:00 PM To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 203, Issue 1 Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Rudder Cables. (Dene Collett (SA)) 2. prop adapter (Brian Kraut) 3. RE: Rudder Cables. (Philip Maley) 4. Corvair engines 5. RE: Rudder Cables. (Dan Heath) 6. Rudder Cables (Larry A Capps) 7. Whereis? (Roger H. Reese) 8. Re: Rudder Cables. (Dan Heath) 9. Rudder Cables. I've been flying for 45 years and never experienced or talked to anyone with this problem. Is it more common with experimental types. (Dan Heath) 10. Re: Rudder Cables. (roger mitchell) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 23:27:16 +0200 From: "Dene Collett \(SA\)" To: "KR builders and pilots" , "Brian Kraut" Subject: Re: KR>Rudder Cables. Message-ID: <006101c39d9a$670c7560$37e5fea9@telkomsa127179> References: <20031028180757.98359.qmail@web40810.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 1 > Brian, > The lowest weight solution / smallest package option > is to add a rudder pedal connector (closed loop) cable > with 2 pulleys/brackets behind the firewall. So when > you step on the toe brakes, the force is evenly > distributed through the cable system. Another > advantage is that when you push forward on one pedal, > the opposite pedal moves aft the same amount. Hi all If I am not mistaken, the way I see it, all this system will do is to stop the rudder pedals from falling down on to the floor.Stomping on the pedals or brakes will only create slack in the "pedal connector" cable. If this is the only desired effect, then surely a light spring attached to each pedal and to the firewall will have the same effect. With this system it is still possible to rip the rudder horns from the rudder by stomping on the brakes or rudder pedals. My solution would be to install the springs as described above with the adition of another cable attached to each rudder pedal running around a pulley system attached to the forward face of the main spar. This way all excessive loads on the pedals are absorbed by the "run around cable" and not the rudder cables and horn. The "run around cable" could be attached to the outer pedals and run through two pulleys attached directly aft of them on the spar or they could be attached to the inner two pedals running through a single pulley in the centre of the spar. I might be missing something but I can't see how this system will be more complex or heavier than you described above. This is how I will be doing mine anyway, unless someone points out a shortcoming in my way of thinking. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:05:13 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Brian Kraut To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>prop adapter Message-ID: <32741747.1067378714446.JavaMail.root@scooter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 2 Someone has offered to let me use their Warnke prop made for a 2100 Revmaster engine on my 2180 Great Plains engine. He is getting great cruise speeds compared to what I am getting on my Props, Inc. prop in a very similar KR. He measured the bolt spacing and the bolt pattern on the Revmaster is about 1/2" diameter bigger than the Great Plains. Does anyone know where I can get an adapter plate to try this prop? I could make one, but I would much rather borrow or buy one for this quick test. I would obviously order a new prop with the correct pattern if the Warnke performs good. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:01:38 +0800 From: "Philip Maley" To: "'KR builders and pilots'" Subject: RE: KR>Rudder Cables. Message-ID: <003601c39dc0$96e5f380$0301a8c0@wotech.net> In-Reply-To: <006101c39d9a$670c7560$37e5fea9@telkomsa127179> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 3 Hi guys I am also a bit concerned about the rudder control system but I guess we shouldn't get too worked up about it because I haven't heard of any KR accidents from bent rudder horns. However I did find this interesting post on the matronics pietenpol list: "If you use pedals, they MUST be connected to a front rudder bar with rods, to keep from tearing the rudder horn loose...in flight this could ruin your whole day. Personally, I have no problem with the rudder bar." I also found several accident rerports that talk about bent, broken and jammed rudder horns from application of excessive pedal forces. The bellcrank idea sounds excellent, and it could be placed behind the seat, in front of the pedals (maybe in front of the firewall) or you could even incorporate one into the rudder pedals (ie a rudder bar). Regards Phil Maley Perth Australia ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:04:02 EST From: Timboyer2@wmconnect.com To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>Corvair engines Message-ID: <177.218467b0.2cd07a12@wmconnect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 4 Does anyone have a flying KR with a corvair engine. If so could you share a little info on what type of a prop and the kind of performance your getting. I just started rebuilding mine Thanks Tim Gettysburg PA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:22:50 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" To: Subject: RE: KR>Rudder Cables. Message-ID: <3F9F247A.000001.03304@Computer> References: <003601c39dc0$96e5f380$0301a8c0@wotech.net> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 5 What is a rudder bar? Why would anyone, in flight, exert so much pressur= e on both pedals at the same time, such that it would significantly damage = the rudder horn? I cannot imagine such a situation.=0D =0D I can see this happening during a hairy landing when you get very tense o= n the brakes, but then you are on the ground. =0D =0D N64KR=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering=0D =0D See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic=0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20From rahuman@ev1.net Tue Oct 28 19:01:25 2003 Received: from smtpout.ev1.net ([207.44.129.134]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1AEgaL-000GnP-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:01:25 -0800 Received: from desktop [207.218.203.166] by smtpout.ev1.net (SMTPD32-6.06) id AFD51D0B0112; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:11:17 -0600 Message-ID: <003301c39dc9$c6fe0770$a6cbdacf@desktop> From: "Rick Human" To: "KR builders and pilots" References: <003601c39dc0$96e5f380$0301a8c0@wotech.net> <3F9F247A.000001.03304@Computer> Subject: Re: KR>Rudder Cables. Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:07:22 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Dan - I don't think the concern is with too much rudder force in flight but rather with the application of toe brakes - the solution to that concern, if there is one, is heel brakes - they don't put any excess force on the rudder pedals/horn in any way - besides it's generally a lighter application. I also agree with Dene - a close loop system will not solve this problem - it's just an alterative to a spring holding the pedal in the upright position - some prefer to connect the pedals with pulleys and a cable rather than springs - they object to the artificial "feel" springs "may" impose on the rudder. Rick Human Houston, Texas N202RH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Heath" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 8:22 PM Subject: RE: KR>Rudder Cables. What is a rudder bar? Why would anyone, in flight, exert so much pressure on both pedals at the same time, such that it would significantly damage the rudder horn? I cannot imagine such a situation. I can see this happening during a hairy landing when you get very tense on the brakes, but then you are on the ground. N64KR Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC DanRH@KR-Builder.org See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org _______________________________________________ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:11:32 -0600 From: "Larry A Capps" To: "'KR builders and pilots'" Subject: KR>Rudder Cables Message-ID: <000001c39dd2$bcf10170$0200a8c0@schpankme> In-Reply-To: <003301c39dc9$c6fe0770$a6cbdacf@desktop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 6 A better design (geometry) will go along-way in solving the brake/pedal problem. http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/pedals/pedal.pdf Acrobat viewer Larry A Capps Naperville, IL -----Original Message----- some prefer to connect the pedals with pulleys and a cable rather than springs - they object to the artificial "feel" springs "may" impose on the rudder. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:22:30 -0700 From: "Roger H. Reese" To: "KR Net" Subject: KR>Whereis? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 7 Can anybody tell me how to contact the Taylors at H.A.P.I? Or whomever is running it now, if anybody. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 06:06:33 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" To: Subject: Re: KR>Rudder Cables. Message-ID: <3F9F9F39.000005.03304@Computer> References: <003301c39dc9$c6fe0770$a6cbdacf@desktop> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 8 RE: a close loop system will not solve this problem =0D =0D This is not the problem that I was addressing. I was merely addressing s= lop in the cable system. It is my opinion that a sloppy system is more prone= to flutter than one that is not sloppy. Flutter and control surface balanci= ng is what started this thread. Even if you balance your surfaces, I believ= e that you should have a system where the cables maintain proper tension.=0D =0D However, your results will vary.=0D =0D N64KR=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering=0D =0D See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic=0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20From wynoose@bellsouth.net Wed Oct 29 04:24:09 2003 Received: from imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net ([205.152.59.72]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1AEpMu-000H4N-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 04:24:08 -0800 Received: from mail.bellsouth.net ([205.152.59.160]) by imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.27 201-253-122-126-127-20021220) with SMTPid <20031029122836.PMMJ1811.imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:28:36 -0500 X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.11 (webedge20-101-194-20030622) From: To: KR builders and pilots Subject: Re: RE: KR>Rudder Cables. Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 7:28:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20031029122836.PMMJ1811.imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: > I'm confused here. I've been flying for 45 years and never experienced > or talked to anyone with this problem. Is it more common with experimental types. > From: "Philip Maley" > Date: 2003/10/28 Tue PM 09:01:38 EST > To: "'KR builders and pilots'" > Subject: RE: KR>Rudder Cables. > > Hi guys > > I am also a bit concerned about the rudder control system but I guess > we shouldn't get too worked up about it because I haven't heard of any > KR accidents from bent rudder horns. However I did find this > interesting post on the matronics pietenpol list: > > "If you use pedals, they MUST be connected to a front rudder bar with > rods, to keep from tearing the rudder horn loose...in flight this > could ruin your whole day. Personally, I have no problem with the > rudder bar." > > I also found several accident rerports that talk about bent, broken > and jammed rudder horns from application of excessive pedal forces. > > The bellcrank idea sounds excellent, and it could be placed behind the > seat, in front of the pedals (maybe in front of the firewall) or you > could even incorporate one into the rudder pedals (ie a rudder bar). > > Regards > Phil Maley > Perth Australia > > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:41:48 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" To: Subject: KR>Rudder Cables. I've been flying for 45 years and never experienced or talked to anyone with this problem. Is it more common with experimental types. Message-ID: <3F9FB58C.00000A.03304@Computer> References: <20031029122836.PMMJ1811.imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 9 I don't want to offend anyone, but I think the problem is paranoia. I ha= ve never heard of a KR experiencing a problem with the rudder horns. =0D =0D N64KR=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering=0D =0D See our KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Click on the pic=0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20From crainey1@cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 29 06:07:10 2003 Received: from ms-smtp-01-smtplb.tampabay.rr.com ([65.32.5.131] helo=ms-smtp-01-eri0.tampabay.rr.com) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1)id 1AEqyc-000Llk-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 06:07:10 -0800 Received: from Beverly (5.70.33.65.cfl.rr.com [65.33.70.5]) by ms-smtp-01-eri0.tampabay.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id h9TEBXcF000396 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:11:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <003101c39e26$8fa8b510$05462141@Beverly> From: "Colin" To: Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:11:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1b3 Subject: KR>Rudder cables X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Netters, I agree with Dan. I think all are alittle paranoid here, unjustifiably. = If your control surface is balanced you should not have any problem = with an aerodynamic phenomenon, known as flutter caused by the turbulent = air over an unbalanced control surface at higher airspeeds. The surface = oscillates rapidly back and forth and quickly destroys it, metal or = composite. What Dan was referring to by having a closed loop system, = helps continually stabilize the rudder so as to improve rudder = performance in all flight regimes. I too have never heard of any = aircraft having rudder related accidents, solely by its connection to = the pedals. ALL Cessna highwings, and Piper singles I have flown have = cables attached directly to the pedals, and have toe brakes. These = aircraft are used for training and acquire literally hundreds more hours = of use each year than privately owned aircraft (i.e.. a 100 hr = inspection every 2-4 weeks!). Proper care and maintenance are key here = to avoiding problems. Re-design although probably good, is overkill, = alot of potential extra weight, for truly what gain?! Put your time and = energy into improving other things. My opinion... Colin & Bev Rainey KR2(td) crainey1@cfl.rr.com Sanford, Florida FLY SAFE!!!!From larry.capps@comcast.net Wed Oct 29 07:53:02 2003 Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net ([216.148.227.85]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1AEsd4-0001m7-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:53:02 -0800 Received: from schpankme (12-251-66-163.client.attbi.com[12.251.66.163]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2003102915573001400jqucne>; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:57:30 +0000 From: "Larry A Capps" To: "'KR builders and pilots'" Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:59:22 -0600 Message-ID: <000001c39e35$9ed30270$0200a8c0@schpankme> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <003101c39e26$8fa8b510$05462141@Beverly> Importance: Normal Subject: KR>Flutter my what X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: larry.capps@comcast.net, KR builders and pilots List-Id: KR builders and pilots List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: Flutter is an aerodynamically induced vibration . As the amplitude of the vibration increase, catastrophic failure of the structure can occur. Regards, Larry A Capps Naperville, IL "Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it." -----Original Message----- flutter caused by turbulent air over an unbalanced control surface at higher airspeeds. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:27:42 -0600 From: "roger mitchell" To: "KR builders and pilots" Subject: Re: KR>Rudder Cables. Message-ID: References: <003601c39dc0$96e5f380$0301a8c0@wotech.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 10 off the subject, or back to the question, when fiberglassing if you use = a hair dryer on high heat/low wind it can help the resin wick into the = cloth. it's a good way to keep from using more resin than is needed, = paint the surface , lay on the cloth brush or squeggy while applying = heat and pull the resin through the cloth, we've used this methoid at = TWA/AA for many years even outside in the winter in kansas city ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Philip Maley=20 To: 'KR builders and pilots'=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 8:01 PM Subject: RE: KR>Rudder Cables. Hi guys I am also a bit concerned about the rudder control system but I guess = we shouldn't get too worked up about it because I haven't heard of any KR accidents from bent rudder horns. However I did find this interesting post on the matronics pietenpol list: "If you use pedals, they MUST be connected to a front rudder bar with rods, to keep from tearing the rudder horn loose...in flight this = could ruin your whole day. Personally, I have no problem with the rudder bar." I also found several accident rerports that talk about bent, broken = and jammed rudder horns from application of excessive pedal forces. The bellcrank idea sounds excellent, and it could be placed behind the seat, in front of the pedals (maybe in front of the firewall) or you could even incorporate one into the rudder pedals (ie a rudder bar). Regards Phil Maley Perth Australia _______________________________________________ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 203, Issue 1 *************************************