From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net on behalf of krnet-request@mylist.net Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 4:06 AM To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 257, Issue 1 Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: airfoil design (Ron Eason) 2. I would trailer the KR home! (Thomas Brock) 3. KR Information (larry flesner) 4. Post of this week (Dan Heath) 5. Re: H/S spars ( Dan Diehl reply) (Phillip Matheson) 6. Re: airfoil design (lloyd schultz) 7. Re: airfoil design (Dana Overall) 8. Re: airfoil design (Dana Overall) 9. Re: Calendar Idea (Jim Sellars) 10. Ref. airfoils (robert tallini) 11. Ref. airfoils (robert tallini) 12. Re: Ref. airfoils (Mark Youkey) 13. Re: test flight #4 (Justin) 14. Airfoil Information (Alexander Birca (MD/RMD)) 15. Pitot error (Martindale Family) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:28:57 -0600 From: "Ron Eason" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>airfoil design Message-ID: <001701c3c801$0fe11e80$6501a8c0@Administration> References: <8539000.1071930367305.JavaMail.root@bigbird.psp.pas.earthlink.net><004701c3c70a$92d8d4b0$1202a8c0@basement><3FE47B75.E1D730BA@earthlink.net> <0cf301c3c719$f974d840$1202a8c0@basement> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 1 Just your biased opinion. Everyone has one. You are to owed by engineers with aero degrees. We just do the best we can and with the elements we have to work with. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Langford" To: "KRnet" Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 10:54 AM Subject: Re: KR>airfoil design > Lloyd Schultz wrote: > > > of the most docile airplanes out there. I can't help thinking that making > a > > "sweet"-flying wing is like baking a really good pastry...it's as > > much a > result > > of the chef's ability as the vitals used. No? > > I knew somebody would make this point. The aircraft factories that > used this airfoil had a lot more expertise in taming aerodynamic > problems than the guy who asked the question. I get the impression > that anybody asking for airfoil advice probably isn't going to be a > "chef" with a lot of ability. Now if he wants to learn all the tricks > of the aero engineering trade, he's welcome to do it. He asked for > opinions, I gave mine. He can do whatever he wants, but I can't > fathom why anybody would want to reengineer the KR wing when one of > the world's sharpest wing specialists has > already designed one especially for this airplane, with reduced drag > and increased speed one of the top priorities, while maintaining the > docile stall characteristics of the stock RAF48. Just my opinion > though... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL > N56ML "at" hiwaay.net > see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 13:43:16 -0900 From: Thomas Brock To: KRnet Subject: KR>I would trailer the KR home! Message-ID: <3FE621F7.DED7E241@arctic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 2 Thanks to all of you again. I see clearly the many reasons for trailering the KR home. One thing I do want to make clear is that it was never MY intention to fly one of these birds to Alaska. I was thinking about professional pilots who fly cross country all the time who would fly the KR to its new home. I guess even pros would trailer the plane home. Since towing by trailer is the way to go, how difficult is it to take the wings off and put them back on again? Does this damage the plane in any way? In my case, it looks like getting a KR here would involve the following: Option 1 1. trailering to Seattle 2. Packaging the plane somehow 3. Shipping by sea barge to remote Alaska This method would probably cost around $5-7000 Option 2 The alternative would be to hire a PROFESSIONAL ferry pilot. Estimated expenses: $1500-3000? Option 3 Have kit delivered to my location and build to my specifications. Time to build: years? Any ideas on this one? What would you do? Thanks for all of your responses. Merry Christmas Thomas Brock ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:34:01 -0600 From: larry flesner To: KRnet Subject: KR>KR Information Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20031221173401.0087c100@pop.midwest.net> In-Reply-To: <3FE477D2.CD437A84@arctic.net> References: <37.423bc220.2d1570d2@wmconnect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 3 I'm not a builder, but a person who wants to buy >a completed KR to learn how to fly in. I also want a plane that will >carry two >"average size middle aged adults." Today's pilots are heavier than they were 50 >years ago. My instructor and I would weigh in about 250 pounds each. Therefore, >would definitely need to have a KR that would fly with a heavier gross weight. >Thomas Brock +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Thomas, I don't want to burst your bubble but I think it's time for a reality check. Two 250 pound people in a KR of any kind and use it for training is just not going to work. I would suggest you look at the following web site: http://www.visionaircraft.com/ If you "must" train in a home built I think something like the "Vision" would fit your needs MUCH better. It has a cockpit width up to 44 inches and would much better handle two people like you and your instructor. It claims good performance numbers for a 100 horse engine which leaves you the possibility of building up or buying an inexpensive engine and they claim a very reasonable airframe cost. If their claims are even close you could possibly get one in the air for $20,000 or less. If I were starting over I would give the Vision strong consideration over the KR. Good luck and Merry Christmas. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 18:42:43 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" To: "krnet@mylist.net" Cc: "Jerry" Subject: KR>Post of this week Message-ID: <3FE62FF3.00000F.02080@Computer> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 4 Well, I guess it has been a while since a post. And guess what it is, th= at s right, a windshield. This is because the windshield has become my life= 's work. =0D =0D Well, I don't want to get my hopes up, but we have one on the plane, read= y to be glassed in. I will only know if it is going to work, if it lasts o= ver 6 months without crazing. By that time, we will be at the airport making final preparations for the inspection.=0D =0D I call this one Reddy, Aim, Fire. =0D =0D http://kr-builder.org/Windshield_Last_Attempt/index.html=0D =0D See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering=0D =0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20From DanRH@alltel.net Sun Dec 21 15:59:20 2003 Received: from mta01.alltel.net ([166.102.165.143] helo=mta01-srv.alltel.net) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1AYDTk-000IQZ-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Sun, 21 Dec 2003 15:59:20 -0800 Received: from Computer ([151.213.90.49]) by mta01-srv.alltel.net with SMTP id <20031221234802.BFID11508.mta01-srv.alltel.net@Computer> for ; Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:48:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3FE63135.000011.02080@Computer> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 18:48:05 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) X-Mailer: IncrediMail 2001 (2001155.2001155) From: "Dan Heath" References: <3.0.6.32.20031221173401.0087c100@pop.midwest.net> X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-FVER: X-CNT: ; X-Priority: 3 To: "krnet@mylist.net" Subject: Re: KR>KR Information Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1b3 X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KRnet List-Id: KRnet List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: At $20,000, that would be a good alternative to a more expensive RV. It sure looks good. =0D =0D See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering=0D =0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20From flesner@midwest.net Sun Dec 21 16:13:11 2003 Received: from capitol.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.180]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1AYDh9-000Ifm-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Sun, 21 Dec 2003 16:13:11 -0800 Received: from dsc04-cir-oh-207-221-234-28.rasserver.net ([207.221.234.28] helo=larry-flesner) by capitol.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AYDWD-00043z-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Sun, 21 Dec 2003 16:01:53 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20031221175453.0087e100@pop.midwest.net> X-Sender: flesner@pop.midwest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:54:53 -0600 To: KRnet From: larry flesner In-Reply-To: <3FE477D2.CD437A84@arctic.net> References: <37.423bc220.2d1570d2@wmconnect.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: KR>test flight #4 X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KRnet List-Id: KRnet List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: The weather yesterday (Saturday) was perfect for another flight by a low time KR pilot. I put some much oversized C150 wheel pants on the KR to see if they made a differance on my cruise. They were so much out of rig that they were of little value. I got maybe an extra 4 or 5 knots. I don't know how the C150 flew. One pant was 1 1/2 inches higher than the other and they were mounted to the same brackets that came off the Cessna. So much for that. The more time I get in the KR the more I love it. It has to be one of the nicest flying aircraft I've flown and I've been in several in my 950 hours of flight time. The three landings after my first flight have gone great. I've learned quickly not to really move the stick for flare but to just pressure it back to bring the nose up a bit. A hightime taildragger pilot friend of mine that witnessed the landing called it a PERFECT wheel landing with a tail up roll out. It seemed like the KR was doing the flying and I was along for the ride. I know that's not true but that's the feeling you get. I eased it into a stall attitude until I felt some buffet and then flew back out. There was no tendenancy to drop a wing and it flew stable with only minor control inputs. The ASI remained on the peg at below 40K's. This thing is a pure joy to fly!!!!!!! All engine and aircraft systems continue to work without a flaw. The CHT stays at approx 300F and the oil temp never got above 170F. This was on a 40F day. My four point harness popped open at about 1000 feet so I continued to climb to 2500 before trying to secure it. This is not a hands off airplane if you are trying to wrestle around in the cockpit but I managed to get it secured. I need to check my buckle as it has popped on me before and I attributed it catching the buckle with my hand without realizing it. Now I think there is something else going on. My engine RPM is still low and I think a re-pitch of the prop is in order. I'll keep you posted. Right now I'm having too much fun flying!!!! Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:13:52 +1100 From: "Phillip Matheson" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR> H/S spars ( Dan Diehl reply) Message-ID: <007201c3c820$7bb0d140$0996dccb@ralf> References: <001b01c3baeb$ee682770$0202a8c0@lori8v5h2xi9m3> <3.0.6.32.20031205100101.00841cd0@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 5 Just returning to the H/S questions I had a few weeks ago, I asked Dan Diehl for his comments regarding the increasing of the H/S when fitting a longer wing span ( Dan Diehl Wing Skins) to a KR2. His reply is listed below (Thanks Dan) ------------------ Hi Phillip, The stock KR-2 tail feather dimensions are adequate. Slightly increasing the span and height by maybe 10% would aid control in crosswind landings. The 2S model does have slightly larger tail surface areas than the KR-2. I can say from experience that N4DD will recover from a spin with stock KR-2 tail feathers. Dan ---------------- Phil Matheson matheson@dodo.com.au Australia 61 3 58833588 See our VW Engines and home built Parts and Kits at: http://www.vw-engines.com/ www.homebuilt-aviation.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 15:11:17 -0700 From: lloyd schultz To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR>airfoil design Message-ID: <3FE61A84.A9766092@earthlink.net> References: <8539000.1071930367305.JavaMail.root@bigbird.psp.pas.earthlink.net><004701c3c70a$92d8d4b0$1202a8c0@basement><3FE47B75.E1D730BA@earthlink.net> <0cf301c3c719$f974d840$1202a8c0@basement> <001701c3c801$0fe11e80$6501a8c0@Administration> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 6 Mark Langford- Sorry Mark, I didn't communicate very well. I was not trying to champion 23012...rather to suggest that the thought of using 23012 doesn't seem as absurd to me as you suggested. Didn't Ken and Stu take a good deal from the Taylor Monoplane when they designed the KR1...and didn't John Taylor himself design the Titch after the Monoplane in an attempt at a faster airplane than the Monoplane (which the Titch was)? The Titch used 23012. Your main complaint against 23012 seems to be handling, or specifically, its abrupt stall behavior. But what could be more docile than a Bonanza, Queen Air, Baron, Flaglor Scooter, Piel Emeraude or Taylorcraft? All use 23012. Or if it's speed you want, what would be a better example of a prop-driven fast airplane than the Grumman Bearcat (doesn't this still hold the world speed record for prop planes?) or Hughes H1 (didn't it set several world speed records?)? Both use 23012. I'm sorry, but I believe 23012 probably COULD be used well in a KR. Doing the wing itself correctly could produce a very good result in both handling and speed. You make a good point that few people are qualified to proceed with such engineering toward a certain result. But has anyone officially posted the correct amount of washout using Ashok's new sections? And if they have, has anyone built a wing with that washout, flown it, and testified as to whether it is the right amount of washout? And depending on pilot experience, just how much washout would really be enough? It seems that at this point, there could be nearly as much experimentation building with Ashok's sections as with 23012. I couldn't agree with you more though, that it seems a waste of time to engineer a correct KR2S wing based on 23012 when the existing KR2S wing can be built with Ashok's new sections. -Lloyd Point of interest Several years ago someone gave me a list of most airplanes built and the sections each used at the root and at the tip. I haven't yet discovered any of this data as being incorrect. I found it interesting to sort out of that list, all the airplanes that used 23012. Thought the other readers might find it interesting too: Conventional Aircraft: Wing Root Airfoil Wing Tip Airfoil ===============/=============/========== Aero Boero 115 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Aero Boero 180 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Aero Boero 210 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Aero Boero 260 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Aero Boero 95 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Aero Visions Celebrity NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Afco RL.3 Monsoon NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Air Metal AM-C 111 NACA 23015 NACA 23012 AISA 1-115 NACA 23015 NACA 23009 AISA 1-11B NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Alpavia RF2 Avion-Planeur NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Alpavia RF3 Avion-Planeur NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Arctic S1B2 Arctic Tern NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Armstrong W'worth 650 Argosy NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Auster AOP 9 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Auster B.8 Agricola NACA 43018 NACA 23012 Auster J1B NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Auster J/1U Workmaster NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Aviasud AE 206 Mistral NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Aviation Traders 98 Carvair NACA 23016 NACA 23012 Avro 683 Lancaster NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Avro 685 York NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Avro 688 Tudor NACA 23018 NACA 23018 Avro 691 Lancastrian NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Avro 694 Lincoln NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Avro 696 Shackleton NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Avro 706 Ashton NACA 23018 NACA 23007 Beagle B.109 Airedale NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Beagle D.5/180 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Beech 18 NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Beech 33/35/36 Bonanza NACA 23016.5 NACA 23012 Beech 45 T-34 Mentor NACA 23016.5 NACA 23012 Beech 50 Twin Bonanza NACA 23014.1 NACA 23012 Beech 55/58 Baron NACA 23016.5 NACA 23010.5 Beech 60 Duke NACA 23016.5 NACA 23012 Beech 65 Queen Air NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Beech 73 Jet Mentor NACA 23016.5 NACA 23012 Beech D17-G17 Staggerwing NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Beriev Be-6 NACA 23020 NACA 23010 Bert BF3 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Besneux P.70B NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Boillon Fulmo NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Boisavia 60 Mercurey NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Bolkow 207 NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Britten-Norman BN-2A Islander NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Britten-Norman BN-2A Trislander NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Britten-Norman BN-3 Nymph NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Brugger MB-2 Colirbri 2 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 CallAir S-1B1 Super Cadet NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Carma Weejet VT-1 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Cessna 208 Caravan NACA 23017.424 NACA 23012 Cessna 303 Crusader NACA 23017 NACA 23012 Cessna 500 Citation NACA 23014 NACA 23012 Cessna 550 Bravo NACA 23014 NACA23012 Cessna T-50 Bobcat NACA 23014 NACA 23012 Chrislea CH.3 Super Ace NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Civil Aviation Dept Revathi Mk 1 NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Cornelius XFG-1 NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Douglas DC-4/C-54 NACA 23016 NACA 23012 Douglas DC-6 NACA 23016 NACA 23012 Douglas DC-7 NACA 23016 NACA 23012 Druine 31 Turbulent NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Druine 5 Turbi NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Durand Mk V NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Durban Aeriel Mk.II NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Duruble RD-02 Edelweiss NACA 23018 NACA 23009 Duruble RD-03 Edelweiss NACA 23018 NACA 23012 EAA Super Acro-Sport NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Embraer 110 Bandeirante NACA 23016 NACA 23012 Embraer 120 Brasilia NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Embraer 121 Xingu NACA 23016 NACA 23012 Epervier Aviation Epervier NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Eshelman EF.100 Winglet NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Fairchild F11-1 Husky NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Fairey Gannett NACA 23018 NACA 23010 Fanaero-Chile Chincol NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Flaglor Scooter NACA 23012 NACA23012 Flight Dynamics Flightsail VIII NACA 23012 NACA 23012 FMA IA 31 Colibri NACA 23012 NACA 23012 FMA IA 45 Querandi NACA 23016 NACA 23010 FMA IA 46 Ranquel NACA 23012 NACA 23012 FMA IA 51 Tehuelche NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Focke Wulf Fw 190 NACA 23015.3 NACA 23009 Fokker T.V NACA 23017 NACA 23009 Found Centennial 100 NACA 23016 NACA 23012 Fournier RF3 NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Fournier RF4 NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Fournier RF5 NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Fournier RF7 NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Ganzavia GAK-22 Dino NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Gatard Statoplan AG 01 Aloutte NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Gatard Statoplan AG 02 Poussin NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Gatard Statoplan AG 05 Mesange NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Globe/Temco GC-1B Swift NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Goodyear GA-22A NACA 23018 NACA 23009 Grumman 21 Goose NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Grumman 36 F4F Wildcat NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Grumman 40 TBF Avenger NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Grumman 44 Widgeon NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Grumman 50 F6F Hellcat NACA 23015.6 NACA 23009 Grumman 58 F8F Bearcat NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Grumman 82 AF-2 Guardian NACA 23018 NACA 23012 HAL HJT-16 Kiran NACA 23015 NACA23012 HAL HT-2 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Handley Page 67 Hastings NACA 23021 NACA 23007 Handley Page 81 Hermes 4 NACA 23021 NACA 23007 Handley Page Marathon NACA 23018 NACA 23009 Hawker DeHavilland HDH-10 Enmoth NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Helio 250 Courier NACA 23012 NACA23012 Helio 395 Super Courier NACA 23012 NACA23012 Helio 500 Twin NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Helio 550 Stallion NACA 23012 NACA23012 Hollandair HA-001 Libel NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Hughes H-1 Racer NACA 23012 NACA 23006 Iberavia I-11 Peque NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Iberavia I-115 NACA 23015 NACA 23009 ICA IAR-821 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 ICA IAR-823 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 ICA IS-11 NACA 23015 NACA 23012 ICA IS-5 NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Interstate B-1A NACA 23012 NACA 23012 IPTN NU-200 Sikumbang NACA 23012 NACA 23012 IPTN NU-225 Sikumbang NACA 23015 NACA 23009 IPTN NU-260 Kumbang NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Jodel DR 1050 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Jurca MJ.2 Tempete NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Kolb Laser NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Lawhorn LA-3 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Lazor-Rautenstrach LR-1 NACA 0012 NACA 0009 Lefebvre MP.205 Busard NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Legrand-Simon LS.50 Dauphine NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Legrand-Simon LS.60 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Lemberger LD 20b NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Lobet-De-Rouvary Ganaobie 05 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Lockheed-Vega PV-1 Ventura NACA 23018 NACA 23009 LWD Zuraw NACA 23012 NACA 23012 MacFam SA 102.5 Cavalier NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Maestranza Central HF XX-02 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Malmo MFI-10 Vipan NACA 25012 NACA 25012 Maranda BM1-A Super Loisir NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Maranda BM6 Lark NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Markwalder Marabu NACA 23012 NACA 23009 Martin 162 PBM Mariner NACA 23020 NACA 23010 Martin 170 JRM-1 Mars NACA 23020 NACA 23012 Max Holste 250 Super Broussard NACA 23016 NACA 23012 Max Plan PF.204 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Mead Adventure NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Merkel Mark II NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Merville D.63 NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Meyers MAC 125-C NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Miles M.19 Master II NACA 23024 NACA 23006 Miles M.20 NACA 23021 NACA 23009 Miles M.25 Martinet NACA 23024 NACA 23009 Miles M.27 Master III NACA 23024 NACA 23006 Miles M.60 Marathon NACA 23018 NACA 23009 Miles M.71 Merchantman NACA 23018 NACA 23009 Miles M.9 Master I NACA 23024 NACA 23006 Mirage Celerity NACA 23015 NACA 23010 MKEK 5 NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Monocoupe Meteor NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Mudry CAP 10B NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Mudry CAP 20 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Murphy Renegade II NACA 23012 NACA 23012 NAC 1 Firecracker NACA 23012 NACA 23012 NAC 6 Fieldmaster NACA 23012 mod NACA 23012 NAC Freelance NACA 23012 mod NACA 23012 mod Nord 260 Super Broussard NACA 23016 NACA 23012 Nord 262 Fregate NACA 23016 NACA 23012 Olszewski-Obarewicz Aerosport NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Orlinski RO-7 Orlik NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Osprey Pereira GP3 Osprey II NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Piel CP.301 Emeraude NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Piel CP.604 Diamant NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Piel CP.750 Beryl NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Piel CP.80 Zef NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Piper PA-46 Malibu NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Pottier P.50 Bouvreuil NACA 23015 NACA 23012 PZL MD-12F NACA 23015 NACA 23009 PZL Mielec M-4 Tarpan NACA 23015 NACA 23012 PZL Mielec TS-8 Bies NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Questair Venture NACA 23017 NACA 23010 Reims F406 Caravan II NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Robertson SRX-1 Skylark NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Rockwell Commander 500/690 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Rollason Beta NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Ryan S-CW145 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Salvay-Stark Skyhopper NACA 23015 NACA 23012 San Jodel DR.1052 Excellence NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Saturn Meteor II NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Scheibe SF-23A Sperling NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Schempp-Hirth Milan GS.6 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Sintex 1310 Super Emeraude NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Scintex 250 Rubis NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Stark Sport-Aire II NACA 23012 NACA 23015 Stephens Akro NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Sud Aviation SE.2010 Armagnac NACA 23017 NACA 23010 Swearingen Merlin II NACA 23014.1 NACA 23012 SZD-4 Kania 2 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Tachihi R-53 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Tallmantz Phoenix NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Taylor Kits/Vector Twin-T NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Taylor Kits/Vector T-Craft NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Taylor Rapid Transit NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Taylor Titch NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Taylorcraft 19 Sportsman NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Taylorcraft BC-12 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Taylorcraft E-2 USA 35B USA 35B Taylorcraft F-21 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Temco 33 Plebe/Buckaroo NACA 23015.4 NACA 23009 Transavia PL-12 Airtruk NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Transavia PL.11 Airtruck NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Vought F4U Corsair NACA 23015 NACA 23009 WAR Replicas Fw 190 NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Western PGK-1 Hirondelle NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Wideroe C.5 Polar NACA 23012 NACA 23012 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Langford" > To: "KRnet" > Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 10:54 AM > Subject: Re: KR>airfoil design > > > Lloyd Schultz wrote: > > > > > of the most docile airplanes out there. I can't help thinking that > making > > a > > > "sweet"-flying wing is like baking a really good pastry...it's as > > > much a > > result > > > of the chef's ability as the vitals used. No? > > > > I knew somebody would make this point. The aircraft factories that > > used this airfoil had a lot more expertise in taming aerodynamic > > problems than the guy who asked the question. I get the impression > > that anybody asking for airfoil advice probably isn't going to be a > > "chef" with a lot of ability. Now if he wants to learn all the > > tricks of the aero engineering trade, he's welcome to do it. He > > asked for opinions, I gave mine. He can do whatever he wants, but I > > can't fathom why anybody would want to reengineer the KR wing when > > one of the world's sharpest wing specialists > has > > already designed one especially for this airplane, with reduced drag > > and increased speed one of the top priorities, while maintaining the > > docile stall characteristics of the stock RAF48. Just my opinion > > though... > > > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL > > N56ML "at" hiwaay.net > > see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:24:00 -0500 From: "Dana Overall" To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>airfoil design Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 7 >From: "Ron Eason" >Just your biased opinion. Everyone has one. You are >to >owed by engineers >with aero degrees. >We just do the best we can and with the elements we have to work with. > >Ron Hum, I'm still trying to figure out the worthwhileness (what a word) of this gem. Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host Richmond, KY RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Have fun customizing MSN Messenger — learn how here! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_customize ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:34:28 -0500 From: "Dana Overall" To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>airfoil design Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 8 >From: lloyd schultz >Your main complaint against 23012 seems to be handling, or >specifically, >its >abrupt stall behavior. But what could be more docile than a Bonanza, All >use 23Queen 012. > > Lloyd, while I will admit the Bonanza wing is a very smooth platform when kept within it's envelope. I am a Bonanza owner/driver. It is without a doubt the easiest landing airplane I have ever flown............if you keep the speed up. The stall is nothing remotely close to docile. Unless you coordinate the stall with absolute perfection it is an absolute demon. Marsh would be first to tell you the wing made his airplane fast but it also made it somewhat unpredictable. This was from the horses mouth. I think Ron Lee bought it and ended up not flying it and selling it. If you want to fly it fast...........all the time, have at it. It sure will keep you on your toes:-) Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host Richmond, KY RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Check your PC for viruses with the FREE McAfee online computer scan. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 22:07:01 -0400 From: "Jim Sellars" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Calendar Idea Message-ID: <003801c3c830$4a28f750$a2d8e618@mainpc> References: <005701c3c436$1af57d80$0202a8c0@lori8v5h2xi9m3> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 9 Steve: I would take a couple at least so let me know when they would be ready. Jim Sellars ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve and Lori McGee" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 8:38 PM Subject: KR>Calendar Idea Hey there KR builders / flyers. I was thinking of how nice it would be to have a KR calendar, and if this isn't already getting done I will throw one together if there is enough interest. I have a friend that can do these up. My idea is to get nice detail photos not already on the internet at websites so they are fresh. Throw a reasonable price on them and put the procedes towards the next gathering. Soooo... below is my plan, but is open for suggestions. 1 - If you want a calendar hit me with an e-mail and say how many. 2- If you have a good digital picture of a finished KR plane or outstanding interior, please send it to me. With what you would like mentioned under the credits. Large megabytes for detail. 3- The contributers of the pictures chosen will get 1 free calendar. 4 - The price will be cost, plus shipping and $5 towards the gathering. 5- Events will be listed on the calendar such as the Gathering, Oshkosh, etc. Notify me of your events! Ideas? Opinion? Steve McGee Endeavor Wi. USA Building a KR2S widened. lmcgee@maqs.net _______________________________________________ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:46:52 -0600 (GMT-06:00) From: robert tallini To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>Ref. airfoils Message-ID: <22421855.1072064812985.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 10 I am surprised at the negative consensus regarding the 23012 airfoil. In addition to the certified a/c already mentioned George Pereira used it on his Osprey 2, although his wing is very different than the KR. I do think the subject has been exhausted. Mark, I feel that I have an advantage over you in that I am aware of, and impressed by, your talents as a designer as well as an engineer. However, you did make a remark to the effect that anyone questioning spar strength must be new to aviation, not a pastry chef, you said. To introduce myself, I flew carrier based night fighters in WW2, squadron VF[n]52. During the four years I flew for the Navy I flew F4F Wildcats, F6F Hellcats and F4U Corsairs. Called up during the Korean war I flew helicopters in a carrier based anti-submarine squadron. [Dipping sonar] After retirement [civilian job] I flerw competition aerobatics in a Pitts Special, Reg.#12RT. Only thru advanced. it was a two hole Pitts. I built a WWI SE5A replica in 1981. I flew it in air shows around the country and sold it to Frank Ryder for his Aerodrome 92 Replica Fighter Museum in Guntersville Al. The last FAA certificate was issued in 1999 to an Andy J. Parks, Highlands Ranch, Co. I hold a commercial license #488230 with single and multi-enginr land and rotorcraft-helicopter limitations. I have over 3500 hours STICK TIME in everything from a J-3 to a C-47. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 22:09:11 -0600 (GMT-06:00) From: robert tallini To: KRnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>Ref. airfoils Message-ID: <28850381.1072066152871.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 11 Somehow my message was sent while I was still writing it. I told you I am still learning to use this computer. To continue, I realize thatmany of the people who contribute to your KRnet have more experience and more impressive qualifications. I am not writing this in a spirit of self aggrandizement but to merely establish my level of conversance with flying. But, the Navy taught me to fly and not to design airplanes. As clint Eastwood has said, "A man has to know his limitations." With all that said and for whatever my opinion is worth, I want to tell you again the high regard with which I hold your critical analysis and the conclusions you arrive at. The articles you write and the opinions you present are excellent. I have admired your ability to improve on most every aspect of the KRS2. You certainly have convinced me that the 23012 is not the ideal airfoil for theKR. Frankly, I would use the AS5046 or the AS5048 but I do not have the means of reproducinf the templates as shown on your web. Thank you and everone else for taking the time to respond to my question Bob Tallini ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 23:45:16 -0600 From: "Mark Youkey" To: "robert tallini" , "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Ref. airfoils Message-ID: <002201c3c84e$c6f7f8d0$6400a8c0@blah> References: <28850381.1072066152871.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 12 > You certainly have convinced me that the 23012 is not the ideal airfoil for theKR. Frankly, I would use the AS5046 or the AS5048 but I do not have the means of reproducinf the templates as shown on your web. > Bob Tallini Bob, I bet you do have the means of reproducing the templates... Save the templates to a disk, and take them to Kinkos. Tell them the directions that are on the website, and give them the disk. It'll cost you about 15 minutes and $5.00. That's what I did, and it worked out just fine. Mark Youkey myoukey@cox.net Oklahoma City ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 03:14:24 -0800 From: "Justin" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>test flight #4 Message-ID: <001b01c3c87c$c1b6fa00$47da1818@computer> References: <37.423bc220.2d1570d2@wmconnect.com> <3.0.6.32.20031221175453.0087e100@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 13 Congrats Larry on that flight, thats just awsome. I was just wondering if you are running the stock wing or the "new" wing and whatever other modifications you have done? As far as my plane im just getting everything fixed and smoothed out for the plywood spins. Justin N116JW www.geocities.com/attngrabber14/Home ----- Original Message ----- From: "larry flesner" To: "KRnet" Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 3:54 PM Subject: KR>test flight #4 > > > > The weather yesterday (Saturday) was perfect for another flight by a > low time KR pilot. I put some much oversized C150 wheel pants on the > KR to see if they made a differance on my cruise. They were so much > out of rig that they were of little value. I got maybe an extra 4 or > 5 knots. I don't know how the C150 flew. One pant was 1 1/2 inches > higher than the other and they were mounted to the same brackets that > came off the Cessna. So much for that. > > The more time I get in the KR the more I love it. It has to be one of > the nicest flying aircraft I've flown and I've been in several in my > 950 hours of flight time. > > The three landings after my first flight have gone great. I've > learned quickly not to really move the stick for flare but to just > pressure it back to bring the nose up a bit. A hightime taildragger > pilot friend of mine that witnessed the landing called it a PERFECT > wheel landing with a tail up roll out. It seemed like the KR was > doing the flying and I was along for the ride. I know that's not true > but that's the feeling you get. > > I eased it into a stall attitude until I felt some buffet and then > flew back out. There was no tendenancy to drop a wing and it flew > stable with only minor control inputs. The ASI remained on the peg at > below 40K's. This thing is a pure joy to fly!!!!!!! > > All engine and aircraft systems continue to work without a flaw. The > CHT stays at approx 300F and the oil temp never got above 170F. This > was on a 40F day. > > My four point harness popped open at about 1000 feet so I continued to > climb to 2500 before trying to secure it. This is not a hands off > airplane if you are trying to wrestle around in the cockpit but I > managed to get it secured. I need to check my buckle as it has popped > on me before and I attributed it catching the buckle with my hand > without realizing it. Now I think there is something else going on. > > My engine RPM is still low and I think a re-pitch of the prop is in > order. > > I'll keep you posted. Right now I'm having too much fun flying!!!! > > Larry Flesner > > > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:16:54 +0100 From: "Alexander Birca (MD/RMD)" To: "'KRnet'" Subject: KR>Airfoil Information Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 14 Hello All, Sorry for off topic, just one question, may be some one will help me. How could I find the info about GA 30U airfoil series? Particularly Interested in GA 30U 414 foil. BR, Alex Birca, Moldova ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:39:43 +1100 From: "Martindale Family" To: "KRnet" Subject: KR>Pitot error Message-ID: <000801c3c880$69a69600$75a0fea9@johnjane> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 15 Folks I have my pitot and static currently mounted about 3" below the left = wing and above but in line with the outer tyre edge of the main wheel = leaving about 7 inches of clearance or less when I put on the spats. The = airspeed indicator seems to under the GPS by about 12 knots in nil wind = conditions at 1000 feet at speeds from 60 to 130 knots. Whilst this = doesn't really matter aerodynamically once you have established a set of = numbers to fly by, it helps to be as accurate as practical for = comparision purposes and less so for navigation (conversion to TAS etc). I wish to move the pitot and static away from the wheel to both minimise = any air disturbance from it (and maybe prop wash) but also to prevent it = getting smashed up by the tyre/spat in the event of a heavy landing. I = was thinking of re-mounting it on the outer wing stub rib and extending = it forward along the chord line about 8 inches from the leading edge. My = question is will this be enough? Have other netters similiar instances = to relate and what were your solutions? I know the new location will be = more prone to damge from curious onlookers etc. on the ground. PS: I've replaced my ignition switchs and now have a 1/2 volt gain = across the terminals....just joking :-) Regards John =20 The Martindale Family 29 Jane Circuit TOORMINA NSW 2452 AUSTRALIA phone: 61 2 66584767 email: johnjane@chc.net.auFrom DanRH@alltel.net Mon Dec 22 04:01:38 2003 Received: from mta01.alltel.net ([166.102.165.143] helo=mta01-srv.alltel.net) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1AYOkk-0002LH-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Mon, 22 Dec 2003 04:01:38 -0800 Received: from Computer ([151.213.90.49]) by mta01-srv.alltel.net with SMTP id <20031222115021.HRJW11508.mta01-srv.alltel.net@Computer> for ; Mon, 22 Dec 2003 05:50:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3FE6DA80.000019.02080@Computer> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 06:50:24 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) X-Mailer: IncrediMail 2001 (2001155.2001155) From: "Dan Heath" References: <000801c3c880$69a69600$75a0fea9@johnjane> X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-FVER: X-CNT: ; X-Priority: 3 To: "krnet@mylist.net" Subject: Re: KR>Pitot tube placement Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1b3 X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KRnet List-Id: KRnet List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: http://kr-builder.org/beast/beast.htm=0D =0D Look at the second picture under the wing, on your right. The pitot tube= on our new plane will be a little farther out, for no particular reason. Th= e one you will be look at, worked well and is out of the way of anyone walk= ing by. =0D =0D See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics=0D =0D Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC=0D =0D DanRH@KR-Builder.org=0D =0D See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering=0D =0D See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org=0D =20From bo124rs@hotmail.com Mon Dec 22 04:06:16 2003 Received: from bay13-f104.bay13.hotmail.com ([64.4.31.104] helo=hotmail.com) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1AYOpE-0002QY-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Mon, 22 Dec 2003 04:06:16 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 22 Dec 2003 03:55:00 -0800 Received: from 152.163.252.198 by by13fd.bay13.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:55:00 GMT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.252.198] X-Originating-Email: [bo124rs@hotmail.com] X-Sender: bo124rs@hotmail.com From: "Dana Overall" To: krnet@mylist.net Bcc: Subject: RE: KR>Ref. airfoils Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 06:55:00 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Dec 2003 11:55:00.0498 (UTC) FILETIME=[6D80FF20:01C3C882] X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KRnet List-Id: KRnet List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: >From: robert tallini > >I am surprised at the negative consensus regarding the 23012 airfoil. >In >addition to the certified a/c already mentioned George Pereira used it on >his Osprey 2, although his wing is very different than the KR. I really don't think Mark, and me included, hold a negative attitude towards the 23012 in and of itself. I personnally, it may be as one stated a biased opinion due to my experience with it, don't think the 23012 is a good airfoil for the KR because the speed issue. To simplify my response I'll go into one realm. The KR is an airplane where speed management is a priority in landing. With the Bonanza, using the 23012, it has barn door flaps. I extend them to the stops just for conveniece. The KR does not flaps of this size or usefullness. With the 23012 the final over the fence speed, as Marsh experienced, is somewhere around 90. This airplane has habit of wanting to float as it is. Add the additional speed, no real (we're talking real world here now not a speed brake that merelyu produces drag) flaps and a very sharp departure (look at the charts, I won't say anything else about real world experience) and one can see exhilerating landings. There are no 3 point landings with the 23012 on the KR, they are wheelers. Now, is 90 too fast, no. Lots of airplanes land at 90. However, I have watched Marsh land his 23012 KR numerous times. As experienced as he was, numerous were an adventure. There are many, many nice airplanes flying with the 23012. Take what others have experienced with the 23012 and make your own educated decision and go with it, either way. BTW, everyone Merry Christmas Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host Richmond, KY RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive >From: robert tallini > >I am surprised at the negative consensus regarding the 23012 airfoil. >In >addition to the certified a/c already mentioned George Pereira used it on >his Osprey 2, although his wing is very different than the KR. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of slow downloads? 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