From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 336, Issue 2 Date: 3/10/2004 11:56:52 AM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. CARB & MANIFOLD ICING WITH VW ENGINES 2. RE: CARB & MANIFOLD ICING WITH VW ENGINES (Serge F. Vidal) 3. Re: Rand/Robinson Engineering - Perceived Worth (Ron Eason) 4. Re: Rand/Robinson Engineering (Ron Eason) 5. Re: Rand/Robinson Engineering (Ron Eason) 6. Re: Rand/Robinson Engineering (Bob Stone) 7. Re: Angle of attack indicator (Virgil Salisbury) 8. Re: Rand/Robinson Engineering - Perceived Worth (Virgil Salisbury) 9. Re: Dana/Panel_ Dynon EFIS (Charles Buddy & Cheryl Midkiff) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:22:48 EST From: Veeduber@aol.com To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>CARB & MANIFOLD ICING WITH VW ENGINES Message-ID: <7f.439a4434.2d808cc8@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 1 For gasoline, the change of state from an atomized liquid to a vapor is endothermic -- it absorbs heat. The resulting temperature of the fuel/air flow will depend upon the amount of heat available in the endothermic zone. Under the right conditions it is possible for the temperature of the endothermic zone to be below the freezing point even with ambient air temps as high as 90 degrees F. Worse-case, you may need more heat than you've got. In many cases the waste heat from a single cylinder of a 2180cc engine, 8.5:1 cr, engine isn't enough to keep the endothermic zone above the freezing point. Just as there are hypereutectic thermal barrier coatings that can keep the heat inside your exhaust pipes, there are thermal disbursant coatings which enhance the heat flow out of a pipe (or cylinder head). Used in combination you can effectively focus your waste heat inside the heat exchanger for your carb or cabin heat. (I'm using Tech Line's thermal barrier coatings. I've no experience with any of the others.) I've found stainless steel pot-scrubbers to be the best labrynth media for the heat exchanger (as opposed to door springs, etc). I've also found that spot-welded body-panel studs make the best radiating elements, assuming the entire assembly (ie, pipe & studs) is coated with a thermal disbursant (which also prevents rust). Finally, based on a 2180cc engine running 7.5:1, to provide sufficient heat for the worse-case scenario (ie, low temp, high humidity), I needed approximately 95 square inches of exhaust pipe surface, fed by two cylinders, to ensure an ice-free endothermic zone (ie, 90*F over ambient). YMMV. -R.S.Hoover ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 17:27:31 +0100 From: "Serge F. Vidal" To: "'KRnet'" Subject: RE: KR>CARB & MANIFOLD ICING WITH VW ENGINES Message-ID: <001501c406bc$96ba5a30$2c0101c0@ate.com> In-Reply-To: <7f.439a4434.2d808cc8@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 2 Interesting subject. What I had proposed to do was to bring hot air, instead of ambient temperature air inside the carb intake. There seems to be another solution which is to heat the carburetor body itself. Now, I wonder... My intake is already from inside the engine compartment, which is probably very hot already. Should I bother, after all? Serge Vidal KR2 ZS-WEC - Taildragger, VW powered (2.4 liter, dual electronic ignition) - Total aircraft time: 390h - Aircraft hangared at: Orleans, France - Pilot moaning in: Tunis, Tunisia E-mail: serge.vidal@ate-international.com Most systems seem to heat the carb body. -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Veeduber@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 16:23 To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR>CARB & MANIFOLD ICING WITH VW ENGINES For gasoline, the change of state from an atomized liquid to a vapor is endothermic -- it absorbs heat. The resulting temperature of the fuel/air flow will depend upon the amount of heat available in the endothermic zone. Under the right conditions it is possible for the temperature of the endothermic zone to be below the freezing point even with ambient air temps as high as 90 degrees F. Worse-case, you may need more heat than you've got. In many cases the waste heat from a single cylinder of a 2180cc engine, 8.5:1 cr, engine isn't enough to keep the endothermic zone above the freezing point. Just as there are hypereutectic thermal barrier coatings that can keep the heat inside your exhaust pipes, there are thermal disbursant coatings which enhance the heat flow out of a pipe (or cylinder head). Used in combination you can effectively focus your waste heat inside the heat exchanger for your carb or cabin heat. (I'm using Tech Line's thermal barrier coatings. I've no experience with any of the others.) I've found stainless steel pot-scrubbers to be the best labrynth media for the heat exchanger (as opposed to door springs, etc). I've also found that spot-welded body-panel studs make the best radiating elements, assuming the entire assembly (ie, pipe & studs) is coated with a thermal disbursant (which also prevents rust). Finally, based on a 2180cc engine running 7.5:1, to provide sufficient heat for the worse-case scenario (ie, low temp, high humidity), I needed approximately 95 square inches of exhaust pipe surface, fed by two cylinders, to ensure an ice-free endothermic zone (ie, 90*F over ambient). YMMV. -R.S.Hoover _______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:44:03 -0600 From: "Ron Eason" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Rand/Robinson Engineering - Perceived Worth Message-ID: <003c01c406be$e5826f20$6501a8c0@Administration> References: <000001c40653$b82e22a0$6dd85540@jfaughn> <404EF8BC.000003.01480@Computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 3 I think your right. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Heath" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 5:15 AM Subject: RE: KR>Rand/Robinson Engineering - Perceived Worth Many of us have offered to assist Jeanette, free of charge. I think that we already do all that she wants anyone to do. Maybe all of this has everything to do with what the KR means to her. It is hard for us to walk in her shoes. It may very well be, that it has very little to do with material wealth. See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC DanRH@KR-Builder.org See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org _______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:58:45 -0600 From: "Ron Eason" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Rand/Robinson Engineering Message-ID: <004201c406c0$f3128060$6501a8c0@Administration> References: <20040310112353.13188.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 4 You don't go bankrupt with all the account payable invoices paid. She has no overhead cost because she is operating out of her residence and her own labor is free. One of the reasons she has cut back on appearances at flyins is the cash flow {sales of plans}. She operates on a cash basis [ like I try to do.]. I am sure she would like to attend because she enjoys being with the people that build the KR. Ron > In the one hand I agree with you but in the other I > say the best is to let the company go bankrupt. With > all respect, this is a lady who is really not > interested in her business. How I come to the > conclusion is simply look how many people complain and > then my own experience. > I have asked her for the total price with postage for > the KR2S plans. I need to know it to be able to send > her the correct amount because I live in Europe. It is > anyhow a puzzle to me that if you have international > clients, that you don't change your system to > accommodate these people as well. I think it was > between 8 to 10 weeks I got an offer from her for the > landing gear. Of course everybody make mistakes but > you can understand that I am not going to wait another > 10 weeks and I don't know how many phone calls for her > reply. If this is the way you want to do business you > deserve to go bankrupt. > Anyhow with the help of the people here on the Krnet I > got the plans from somebody else. Less than one week I > had them in the post. And that is the way she should > do business. > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for faster > http://search.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:23:21 -0600 From: "Ron Eason" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Rand/Robinson Engineering Message-ID: <005e01c406c4$62ffe270$6501a8c0@Administration> References: <20040310112353.13188.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com> <01b401c406ae$2cab3370$5e0ca58c@tbe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 5 > Dr. Dean and I tried to sell her TET wing attach fittings for the same price > we were selling them on KRnet. She said that was actually less than > she was > paying for them (from Ken Brock, I believe), and she expressed some interest > in them, but we never heard anything else about them. In my opinion, > it's just not good business practice to buy something from one > supplier for years > without ever checking to see if someone else could supply the same > thing for > a lower price. And this was right after her current supplier shipped > several sets of WAFs that apparently hadn't been properly heat treated (Mike > Mims bent them with his bare hands). I've experienced the same thing many times in the many years I've been in business. You may have a better product but convincing the client is not all that cut and dried. Business relationships is what it's all about and how you present yourself, how you talk about your competitors and so forth. You win some you loose some. When dealing with people the decisions are not all logical. You don't gain anything by criticize anyone in the process. KRron ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:41:40 -0600 From: "Bob Stone" To: "Ron Eason" , "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Rand/Robinson Engineering Message-ID: <000401c406c6$f23a1300$ba21f218@hot.rr.com> References: <20040310112353.13188.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com> <004201c406c0$f3128060$6501a8c0@Administration> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 6 Ron, You wrote, "One of the reasons she has cut back on appearances at flyins is the cash flow {sales of plans}." She is not selling many plans because of the way she treats existing builders. Both builders and non builders who have a problem or are interested in building and write to her never get an answer. Her not apearing at fly-in's with a display of what she has to sell is only making things worse. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx rstone4@hot.rr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Eason" To: "KRnet" Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 10:58 AM Subject: Re: KR>Rand/Robinson Engineering > You don't go bankrupt with all the account payable invoices paid. She > has no overhead cost because she is operating out of her residence and > her own labor is free. One of the reasons she has cut back on > appearances at flyins > is the cash flow {sales of plans}. She operates on a cash basis [ > like I try to do.]. I am sure she would like to attend because she > enjoys being with the people that build the KR. > > Ron > > > > In the one hand I agree with you but in the other I > > say the best is to let the company go bankrupt. With > > all respect, this is a lady who is really not > > interested in her business. How I come to the > > conclusion is simply look how many people complain and > > then my own experience. > > I have asked her for the total price with postage for > > the KR2S plans. I need to know it to be able to send > > her the correct amount because I live in Europe. It is anyhow a > > puzzle to me that if you have international clients, that you don't > > change your system to accommodate these people as well. I think it > > was between 8 to 10 weeks I got an offer from her for the > > landing gear. Of course everybody make mistakes but > > you can understand that I am not going to wait another > > 10 weeks and I don't know how many phone calls for her > > reply. If this is the way you want to do business you > > deserve to go bankrupt. > > Anyhow with the help of the people here on the Krnet I > > got the plans from somebody else. Less than one week I > > had them in the post. And that is the way she should > > do business. > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for faster > > http://search.yahoo.com > > > > _______________________________________ > > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > > > > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:59:28 -0500 From: Virgil Salisbury To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>Angle of attack indicator Message-ID: <20040310.144839.172.0.virgnvs@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 7 What a neat idea, Virg On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:09:05 +1100 "Martindale Family" writes: > Folks > > A friend of mine designed his own AoA indicator. Simply a 1/2" tube, > sealed > at the end with row of small holes drilled into it. The tube is > mounted out > of the fuselage wall on the extended chord line 8"or so ahead of the > leading > edge root and is parallel to it. He has the holes pointed down at > right > angles to the chord so that at zero AoA there is minimal pressure in > the > tube. As the wing/fuselage is rotated to provide an AoA so too does > the > tube, the holes present to the air flow and the pressure increases. > A > reading is obtained on some sort of sensitive pressure gauge (maybe > just a > low speed ASI) that has it's face recalibrated in arbitary units (he > just > uses numbers 1 to 5 and has the dial named " partner's pressure > level"). > The tube can be rotated to provide calibration (or desired absolute > needle > movement) and the readings noted as he approaches the stall. He > flies this > gauge on approach, more so than the ASI. > > John > The Martindale Family > 29 Jane Circuit > TOORMINA NSW 2452 > AUSTRALIA > > phone: 61 2 66584767 > > email: johnjane@chc.net.au > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "larry severson" > To: "KRnet" > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 3:12 AM > Subject: Re: KR>Dynon clarification > > > > > > >The only function you will not be able to use without adding an > option is > > >the Angle of Attack. The unit will provide all other functions > with the > > >expenditure of $1995 using the standard power supply in your > airplane and > > >the existing pitot/static system. If you have no use for the > AOA, just > > >use whatcha got. > > > > Forgive me, but the AOA is the most important feature that they > add in not > > only my opinion but also in a number of books on stalls, spins, > landing > and > > small a/c crashes. > > > > > > Larry Severson > > Fountain Valley, CA 92708 > > (714) 968-9852 > > larry2@socal.rr.com > > > > > > _______________________________________ > > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to > KRnet-leave@mylist.net > > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL www.lubedealer.com/salisbury Miami ,Fl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:28:13 -0500 From: Virgil Salisbury To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>Rand/Robinson Engineering - Perceived Worth Message-ID: <20040310.144839.172.2.virgnvs@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 8 Yes, Remember "GRANDMA", Virg On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:15:08 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) "Dan Heath" writes: > Many of us have offered to assist Jeanette, free of charge. I think > that we > already do all that she wants anyone to do. > > Maybe all of this has everything to do with what the KR means to > her. It is > hard for us to walk in her shoes. It may very well be, that it has > very > little to do with material wealth. > > See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics > > Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC > > DanRH@KR-Builder.org > > See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering > > See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org > > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL www.lubedealer.com/salisbury Miami ,Fl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:53:15 -0800 From: "Charles Buddy & Cheryl Midkiff" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Dana/Panel_ Dynon EFIS Message-ID: <009701c406d9$5498b3a0$6401a8c0@charlesmidkiff> References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 9 Dana, One of the members of our EAA chapter 84, here in Washington state, is an engineer for Dynon. His name is Doug Medema and he has one installed in his RV and is still in the flight test stages with his. Everything is going according to plan. He reported to the chapter that 639 units have been sold so far with good reports, though some had a problem with radio interference which they are working on. Bud Midkiff KR2 Stretched to S Lynnwood, WA email: c.midkiff@verizon.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dana Overall" Joe, that's it $1995. You can, and I did, get an internal rechargeable battery that lasts for 2 hours plus. The only two options are the battery and a flush mount kit. Bottom line, $1995 for an entire set of instruments at 1.7 lbs including battery. ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 336, Issue 2 ************************************* ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================