From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 343, Issue 1 Date: 3/17/2004 11:54:02 AM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Transponder (joe) 2. Re: KR Boat Construction 3. Re: Octanes (Barry Kruyssen) 4. Re: Octanes (Mark Langford) 5. Octanes (Colin & Bev Rainey) 6. trailers (larry severson) 7. Fw: Octane, Mogas, etc (Mark Langford) 8. Re: KR Boat Construction 9. Re: trailers (Bob Stone) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 13:08:47 -0800 From: "joe" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Transponder Message-ID: <003901c40b9a$dfb3fb00$0a0110ac@o7p4e3> References: <000901c40ad3$bbb07f20$37e5fea9@telkomsa127179><007b01c40ae1$dc4e87f0$1202a8c0@basement><001701c40af6$1f6f0aa0$6501a8c0@RMSDELL> <004801c40afc$0f628e10$992d4b0c@HPHome> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 1 Save yourself a lot of unnecessary research and get one. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Timothy Bellville" To: "KRnet" Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 6:11 PM Subject: KR>Transponder > Can anyone tell me if I need a transponder in my KR2 due to the fact > that it > has a battery ignition and some elec. instruments and strobe? Thanks > Tim > > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 19:00:07 EST From: TNCOMPRESSORMAN@aol.com To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>KR Boat Construction Message-ID: <15d.3042cc39.2d88ef07@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 2 In a message dated 3/16/2004 4:19:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, jmw116@socal.rr.com writes: > By looking at the plywood it seems to be under alot > of stress and on the virge of snapping. > I don't think the aircraft plywood will snap with such minor bends, but will be under tension due to the outside of the bend being longer than the inside. Irregardless I installed plywood after framing the "boat". you need to keep constant check of level between longerons to prevent a twist. Riley Collins Rutledge, TN ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 10:56:19 +1000 From: "Barry Kruyssen" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Octanes Message-ID: <00cc01c40bba$ac827570$8c00a8c0@T1W419b> References: <008601c40b17$4d171c10$99ef0843@RaineyDay> <001901c40b23$f3ab30a0$8ade1818@computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 3 Justin is right about what the octane rating is. (see http://www.shell.ca/code/motoring/encyclopedia/gasolines/octane.html for the simplest and best description I've found) The thing is, ignition timing is the quick fix. Really there are many factors that cause pinging. 1. Ignition timing 2. Valve timing 3. Compression ratio 4. Carbon deposits build up 5. Wrong spark plug 6. Fuel mixture and atomization in the manifold 7. Oil mixed with fuel (2-strokes only, unless you have a very worn engine) and more. The octane rating has nothing to do with power the fuel produces, only the pressure that can be exerted on it prior to, and during, combustion (without detonation), which should result in more power from the engine. The correct fuel to use is the one that allows your engine to be tuned to maximum performance without pinging. To get more power there are fuels blended with alcohol and/or ethanol that burn hotter and faster (talk about home brew ;-) That all said, I run a fuel 3 octanes high than recommend for my engine in case a supplier blends cheaper fuel with what I require. I also carry a bottle of octane booster in case I cannot get what I want. My engine is not designed for leaded fuels so I must use normal automotive fuels, avgas and most high performance fuels are out. Full power in the air and no problems, a few cents a litre is cheap :-) My 2 cents worth. regards Barry Kruyssen Cairns, Australia AUF 19-3873 kr2@BigPond.com http://users.tpg.com.au/barryk/KR2.htm > Please correct me if im wrong but octane is the rating which dictates the > flash point, at what temprature the fuel will explode... early and late. > Adjusting the mixture can only offer a limited amount of cover-up for this. > For different octanes the timing will need to be different. So if im right > the timing is what needs to be changed with the octane. > > New cars have "ping-sensors" which retards the timing if it suspects > pinging. For example: if you use a higher that whats tuned for octane your > firing will be late, thus giving less power, so if you were to advance the > timing in this situation you would get more power and vise vera with > different grades of gas. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 06:43:18 -0600 From: "Mark Langford" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>Octanes Message-ID: <006601c40c1d$6ccc4dd0$2502a8c0@800Athlon> References: <008601c40b17$4d171c10$99ef0843@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 4 Colin wrote: >Correct me if I am wrong about aviation carbs, but the range of adjustment has to be set initially, and then is pilot adjustable from there. Also base jetting would have to be correct for total possible richness, true?< I should probably just let this go, which was my first instinct when I read Colin's comment "Expect any time you change fuel grade to completely re-tune." But I'm afraid this is going to give somebody the wrong idea about the possibility of running their aircraft on more than one type of fuel. I disagree with "Expect any time you change fuel grade to completely re-tune." because it is such a definitive statement. There are times that you can change fuel grade and never know the difference. Take my brother's plane, for example. A 1956 Cessna 172 with an 0-300. It has an STC to run auto fuel. My understanding of this STC is that it's nothing more than a piece of paper that allows you to pour auto fuel in it. No adjustments were made to the carb, yet it'll run 100LL or 93 octane autofuel, and in the 60 hours that I flew it, I never noticed a difference between the two. I never had to "completely retune" when I filled it up with autofuel after running it on 100 LL. The fact that it will run with no problem on 93 octane autofuel probably means it was designed to be run on 80/87 octane avgas. There are people who probably do the same thing with other planes, and could tell some difference (especially in the vapor lock area), but my point is that some planes can swap fuel interchangeably and not even notice, and that is probably due to the low compression ratio. And most cars that are designed to run on 87 octane can have 93 poured in it and you'll never know the difference except you're wallet will be lighter. I'm not disagreeing that it CAN make a difference in basic adjustments, especially on something like a racing engine that is finely tuned to run perfectly on a certain mixture and composition of fuel. But we all know that aircraft engines are a far cry from racing engines running on the edge of efficiency. Most of the guys on this list are running VW engines, and many of them are homebuilt engines. To tell these guys with Posas that if they change fuel grade they're going to upset their already crappy running carb is a disservice, I think. The number one factor that determines what kind of fuel they can burn is compression ratio. My point is that IT ALL DEPENDS. You can't just make a blanket definitive statement like "Expect any time you change fuel grade to completely re-tune." and expect it to always be true. That was my point, and I'm tired of arguing it. By the way, there are two very informative articles on autogas vs avgas at http://www.eaa.org/education/fuel/autogas_vs_avgas.pdf and http://www.eaa.org/education/fuel/autogaspart2.pdf Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL N56ML "at" hiwaay.net see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 09:12:07 -0500 From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" To: "KRnet" Subject: KR>Octanes Message-ID: <002401c40c29$d4fe3b00$99ef0843@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 5 Mark, Thank you for your post. Once again a victim of over simplifying a post. = The biggest single problem I am aware of with running auto gas is if = someone does not fly regularly enough, it has a tendency to varnish and = gum up a carb worse than avgas. Some engines by their basic setup will be literally un-effected by = octane, while as you said others who are closer to maxing that octane = out will be. Mostly what I have seen is that the ones that need = adjustments, typically need small timing resetting, and base idle speed = and mixture setting, if they run differently. =20 The only other negative I have seen is some warning from Cessna that = they believe that the alcohol from auto fuel will damage some of their = fuel tanks, maybe they have some kind of liner in them. Those owners = would need to check with Cessna. My particular KR was run and flown on = aut gas and I did run up on the ground with it, with no problems. Like = you said if it were initially set up on 93-94 octane, one should be able = to change back and forth with no consequences. Colin & Bev Rainey KR2(td) N96TA Sanford, FL crainey1@cfl.rr.com or crbrn96ta@hotmail.com http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.htmlFrom flesner@midwest.net Wed Mar 17 06:27:43 2004 Received: from epic.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.181]) by lizard.esosoft.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1B3c1H-000PvG-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Wed, 17 Mar 2004 06:27:43 -0800 Received: from dsc02-cir-oh-204-32-79-175.rasserver.net ([204.32.79.175] helo=larry-flesner) by epic.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1B3buB-0002nL-00 for krnet@mylist.net; Wed, 17 Mar 2004 06:20:24 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20040317081819.00878a30@pop.midwest.net> X-Sender: flesner@pop.midwest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:18:19 -0600 To: KRnet From: larry flesner In-Reply-To: <006601c40c1d$6ccc4dd0$2502a8c0@800Athlon> References: <008601c40b17$4d171c10$99ef0843@RaineyDay> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: KR>Octanes X-BeenThere: krnet@mylist.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b3 Precedence: list Reply-To: KRnet List-Id: KRnet List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Help: I disagree with "Expect any time you change fuel grade to completely >re-tune." because it is such a definitive statement. There are times that >you can change fuel grade and never know the difference. >Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I switch back and forth between 100LL and auto fuel (87 oct maybe, I'm not sure, it's the regular) in the Tripacer and the KR with an 0-200 and can't tell which I'm running. Unless of course you notice the 14 gal of 100LL I recently purchased at the airport for $38 would have cost me maybe $25 at the local service station. My climb rate seems to be better with a lighter wallet! :-) I've put 450 hours on the Tripacer in the past 5 years running at least 90 percent auto fuel and Marvel Mystery oil and have not had a single problem. If you have an airplane that sets for long periods the auto fuel seems to gum up the carb or so I've noticed on other aircraft. Just my non-scientific observation. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 09:30:55 -0800 From: larry severson To: KRnet Subject: KR>trailers Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040317092905.027fec08@pop-server.socal.rr.com> In-Reply-To: <001801c3f74e$34f30f40$2402a8c0@800Athlon> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 6 For those who want to use a trailer, instead of a hangar, look at the Sept. 1991 issue of Kitplane. It contains building suggestions for the perfect (?) trailer. Larry Severson Fountain Valley, CA 92708 (714) 968-9852 larry2@socal.rr.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:03:38 -0600 From: "Mark Langford" To: Subject: KR>Fw: Octane, Mogas, etc Message-ID: <000b01c40c4a$2ce847f0$5e0ca58c@tbe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 7 Here's some really good stuff from KRnet lurker Jeff Scott: Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 10:21 AM Subject: Octane, Mogas, etc > Mark, > > Excellent write up and article reference regarding octane, Avgas, and > Mogas. As one might expect, I've done a fair amount of testing with fuels > over the years. For the most part, the I've never been able to tell the > difference in performance using 80/87, mogas or 100LL fuels when running > them in A-65, C-85, O-290, O-300, O320 (150 HP) or Franklin 150. The > biggest caveat to using Mogas in aircraft is that they tend to sit. When > mogas sits, it leaves a coat of varnish. > > When I worked as a mechanic in a snowmobile and motorcycle shop it was > inevitable in the fall that I would be vatting snowmobile carbs that were > gummed up from sitting since the previous spring, and in the spring would > be vatting motorcycle carbs that had been sitting since fall. The only way > to keep them clean was to start them regularly regardless of the > season. It would be noticeable in that the fine orifices for the idle > circuits would be clogged, so they wouldn't idle. However, on tear down > the main jet orifices were almost always at least partially blocked due to > the varnish from the fuel. If one was willing to run their bike or sled a > little lean for a while, the washing action of the fuel moving through the > orifices would eventually wash away the varnish provided that there was any > flow through the orifice. If it was completely blocked, the carb almost > always had to be torn down and vatted. I have helped to resurrect many > planes that have sat for years with fuel in the carb, but have never seen > any sign of varnishing in the carbs from Avgas. > > While I have used Mogas extensively in some of my planes, I have converted > both of my current planes to 100LL only engines. I don't care for the > smell or the handling problems of dealing with Mogas, but that's my > choice. If I was on a tighter budget, the smell might suddenly become > tolerable. :o) > > Ok, here's another side to the coin. We found that some VW engines > converted for aircraft use and run on a diet of straight diet of 100LL had > a tendency to scratch or lightly score the cylinders after 100 hours or > so. They wouldn't do that running on mogas, but since mogas isn't > available at most airports, we weren't able to provide them with a diet of > straight mogas. The conclusion we reached is that the deposits on the > pistons from running 100LL are a bit thicker than what was left by > mogas. The deposits continuously build and slough away, but the pistons in > the VW engines apparently didn't have enough clearance around the sides > above the top ring for the 100LL deposits to build and slough. We were > able to cure this by taking a flycutter and triming away .020 of the > outside of the piston from the top to the top ring land. The proof was in > David Roe's half VW powered Hummelbird, which had the two cylinders > replaced twice in the first 200 hours due to light scoring. After the > piston mod it ran for 900 hours until the case cracked. When removed, the > cylinders were in excellent condition and could easily have been honed and > used again. We also used a local Dragonfly and my VW powered Avid Flyer as > test platforms for the same mods. The dragonfly is still going strong, > although I don't know how many hours. I sold my Avid Flyer with roughly 60 > hours on it and it hasn't flown since, so that one is inconclusive other > than to say that there was no sign of any problems in the first 60 > hours. The credit for the VW research should go primarily to Doug Reid of > Santa Fe for doing so many engine teardowns and close examinations to > understand the problems we were seeing. I was acting as a tech counselor > and sounding board for Doug. > > > Jeff Scott > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:05:20 EST From: JEHayward@aol.com To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR>KR Boat Construction Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 8 In a message dated 3/16/04 2:19:18 AM Mountain Standard Time, jmw116@socal.rr.com writes: << When it came time to join the 2 sides, the plywood creaked and fought very hard to jump out of the jig. By looking at the plywood it seems to be under alot of stress and on the virge of snapping. >> Mine did a similar thing as I would think most do. I was asking an old, long-time A&P who still rebuilds and flies J-3's about it (he's also our EAA tech counselor). He told me to just wet the longerons down in the jig and let dry. I used some wet rags to soak the longerons, placed some aluminum foil over them to retard drying and kept them that way until the next evening. I then allowed a couple of days for them to dry out and it was done. The boat was then easily removed from or returned to the jig without any problems. I then skinned it with the plywood sides in the normal fashion. Jim Hayward Rapid City, SD ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:15:40 -0600 From: "Bob Stone" To: "KRnet" Subject: Re: KR>trailers Message-ID: <000601c40c4b$dae2e580$ba21f218@hot.rr.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20040317092905.027fec08@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 9 Larry. If you have a scanner, will you scan the entire article and send it to me. I am in need of a good trailer for a KR-2S. Since you are so close to where Ken Rand lived, did you know him? I used to live on Lasalle Lane in Huntington,Beach and knew him very well from 1970 up to the time of his death. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx rstosne4@hot.rr.com ------ Original Message ----- From: "larry severson" To: "KRnet" Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 11:30 AM Subject: KR>trailers > For those who want to use a trailer, instead of a hangar, look at the Sept. > 1991 issue of Kitplane. It contains building suggestions for the perfect > (?) trailer. > > Larry Severson > Fountain Valley, CA 92708 > (714) 968-9852 > larry2@socal.rr.com > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 343, Issue 1 ************************************* ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================