From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 108 Date: 6/17/2004 9:00:52 PM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Mogas and fibre glass (wcrawfor@cmhc-schl.gc.ca) 2. RE: Foam type (Alexander Birca (MD/RMD)) 3. RE: Mogas and fibre glass (Wood, Sidney M.) 4. Re: boat question (gleone) 5. Re:RE: KR> boat question (gleone) 6. Re: KR parts for sale (JW) 7. The thing that really eats me alive of the KR is the wood work (Dan Heath) 8. strengthening the firewall (Dan Heath) 9. Re: The thing that really eats me alive of the KR is the wood work (JW) 10. forward spar dimensions (Brian Kraut) 11. CNC Type 1 Heads now availble (Ron Eason) 12. RE: CNC Type 1 Heads now availble (Brian Kraut) 13. Re: forward spar dimensions (skphil@charter.net) 14. Re: Re: KR> forward spar dimensions (skphil@charter.net) 15. Re: The thing that really eats me alive of the KR is the wood work (larry severson) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:43:41 -0400 From: wcrawfor@cmhc-schl.gc.ca Subject: KR> Mogas and fibre glass To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Is there any evidence that motor gas will affect the fibre-glass fuel tanks in our KR's? I have a continental and have always used avgas, but with the increasing costs i am considering mogas. William J.G. (Bill) Crawford Senior Research Consultant Research in Building Science CMHC, Ontario 416-218-3342 Toronto 519-873-2422 London ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:18:14 +0200 From: "Alexander Birca (MD/RMD)" Subject: RE: KR> Foam type To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain Hello Steve, Would like to thanks you and all the people had answered to my question. You are right, every builder has it's own best technique, but all together will form a more complex answer. I now all the negative and positive sides of polyU and styrofoam. Also I agree with you in that styrofoam is much easier to work with without loosing strength properties. The only thing I wasn't sure just of it's very tight cell and as a result the bonding properties. But now I feel I could use this foam without problem, on a large area bonding properties should be OK. As about your link to whisperaircraft, it is amazing for me, they are using styrofoam which is formed from a small heated and pressed spheres. I always was thinking that it is not a suitable material, but it seems I was wrong. In fact in bonding characteristics it is much better than extruded one, but there should be used a lot of micro to fill in all the gaps. Should say very nice plane and clean workmanship. BR, Alex Birca, Moldova -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Stephen Jacobs Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 10:04 AM To: 'KRnet' Subject: KR> Foam type Here in my country (Europe) the only available foam for me is Dow blue extruded Styrofoam. I am afraid about delaminating +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Hello Alex You are getting a good response to your question. Some of the information will conflict as each person gives you what they believe is best. I suspect that you may be more confused after this then you were before. I have been using these products for 20 years (30 years for Styroam /polystyrene) My contribution The negative side of blue foam is: a) Fuel will dissolve stryrofoam. b) Blue foam releases harmful gases when it burns. There are solutions to both of the above. Other than the above I firmly believe that blue styrofom is as good as polyU in every respect (or better) provided that you understand it and use it to its best advantage. Most KR's are built with a "single sided sandwich" using relatively thick chunks of polyU foam. Full attention is given to the outer surface and little attention is given to the inner surface. Have a look at: http://home.hiwaay.net/%7Elangford/swings.html The builder makes every effort to remove unwanted (surplus) foam from the inner surface and then provides a glass skin on the inside - thus a true sandwich construction. This builder uses PolyU (no problem in the USA) but you can do the same with your blue foam and achieve the same results with a THINNER core material if necessary. I suspect that Mark L is using material of about 1kg per cubic foot, but you can use blue foam of double that weight (4lb /cub ft) but cut it to half as thick - and still be smiling. You can also cut your foam with a hot wire (I regularly do) provided that you take every precaution NOT TO BREATH THE SMOKE. There is a particularly good KR web site where the builder used hotwired blue foam wing sections (with weight reducing cut-outs) for the wings. I tried to find this reference for your benefit, but I cannot remember where I saw it - maybe one of the netters will know and tell us. In the meantime - have a look at http://www.whisperaircraft.com/ website. I think I am correct in saying that all of the work was done with Styrofoam. Dene Collet (Port Elizabeth SA) is familiar with this project and may have better information. Take care and good luck Steve J Zambia Askies"at"microlink.zm ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 08:57:30 -0400 From: "Wood, Sidney M." Subject: RE: KR> Mogas and fibre glass To: "KRnet" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bill, The glass fiber in fiber glass is totally immune to any chemical attack from anything that might be contained in any gasoline, and is also oblivious to ultraviolet light from the sun. The resin is another story. Epoxy resin is subject to UV attack. Vinyl Ester resin is also subject to UV attack. That is why we hide them from the sun with primer paint that has UV protection. 100 LL aviation gasoline works fine with epoxy resin fabricated tanks. Automotive fuels will contain alcohol, oxiginators, propane and other additives. These will attack epoxy resins. Vinyl ester resin is immune to the additives in automotive gasoline. For that reason fiber glass fuel tanks should be fabricated using vinyl ester resins. Sid Wood, KR-2 N6242 Mechanicsville, MD USA sidney.wood@titan.com Is there any evidence that motor gas will affect the fibre-glass fuel tanks in our KR's? I have a continental and have always used avgas, but with the increasing costs i am considering mogas. William J.G. (Bill) Crawford Senior Research Consultant Research in Building Science CMHC, Ontario 416-218-3342 Toronto 519-873-2422 London _______________________________________ ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:05:14 -0600 (Mountain Standard Time) From: "gleone" Subject: Re: KR> boat question To: Message-ID: <40D1970A.000004.02876@YOUR-FD6NVJCER4> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" SAND THE LONGERONS! DO NOT NOTCH THEM!! When you give a lesson in meanness to a critter or a person, don't be surprised if they learn their lesson. -------Original Message------- From: KRnet Date: 06/17/04 06:40:50 To: gleone@rtconnect.net Subject: @CHECK KR> boat question I am installing the top cross members on the boat. The 5/8 x 5/8 piece that sits on top of the top longerons about 4" back. Since the sides angle, it does not sit flat on the longeron. Should I notch that cross member or sand the longerons level like you do for the bottoms? Thanks for any advice. Jim _________________________________________________________________ MSN 9 Dial-up Internet Access fights spam and pop-ups – now 3 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:22:50 -0600 (Mountain Standard Time) From: "gleone" Subject: Re:RE: KR> boat question To: Message-ID: <40D19B2A.00000C.02876@YOUR-FD6NVJCER4> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Another method of strengthening the firewall is to add aluminum angle (1x4) and glassing it in. Like you, I'm a little adverse to raining debris and body parts all over the Big Horn Basin of Wyoming. Gene Leone, Worland, Wyoming. When you give a lesson in meanness to a critter or a person, don't be surprised if they learn their lesson. -------Original Message------- From: KRnet Date: 06/16/04 13:15:32 To: KRnet Subject: @SPAM+++ RE: KR> boat question Jim, My thought is you will want all the strength in the longeron that is available. So don't sand anymore than absolutely necessary, especially at the fire wall area. Some builders, I have observed on their websites, have added extra plywood on the inside top and bottom of the fuselage sides to beef up the firewall attachment. These builders are using the bigger engines for increased performance. I am using a 2180 VW and have 3-inch wide 1/4-inch plywood at the top and 2-inch wide 1/4-inch plywood at the bottom. The floor from the firewall to the main spar is 1/4-inch plywood inside for added strength (and for big feet per the KR-2 plans suggestion). All these added plywood pieces are gusseted into the firewall frame. Perhaps this is overdone, but I want to avoid a citation from the EPA for littering the landscape with old KR-2 bits and pieces. Environmental cleanups are getting so expensive these days... Sid Wood, KR-2 N6242 Mechanicsville, MD USA Sidney.wood@titan.com -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net] On Behalf Of James Leverton Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 2:31 PM To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: KR> boat question << File: ATT29349.txt >> I am installing the top cross members on the boat. The 5/8 x 5/8 piece that sits on top of the top longerons about 4" back. Since the sides angle, it does not sit flat on the longeron. Should I notch that cross member or sand the longerons level like you do for the bottoms? Thanks for any advice. Jim _________________________________________________________________ MSN 9 Dial-up Internet Access fights spam and pop-ups - now 3 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:27:22 -0700 From: "JW" Subject: Re: KR> KR parts for sale To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <000d01c45477$34c7b080$ed7ba8c0@computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks for the support but it isnt that im giving up. Im simply realizing that in my life right now I dont have the time for building an airplane. Even beyond that, I need an IFR bird for the hours. The thing that really eats me alive of the KR is the wood work, if my wood work was complete on the boat this would proubly be another story. Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 6:27 PM Subject: Re: KR> KR parts for sale > Justin don't give up. I have been working on my Kr of an on for 20 > years It is good to work with your hands if you have a high pressure > job. Your Kr > will never get jealous. You can hang it from the ceiling when you do > not have > time for it and it will give you great insight into the the woman > that come > into your life. > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:16:47 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" Subject: KR> The thing that really eats me alive of the KR is the wood work To: "krnet@mylist.net" Message-ID: <40D20A3F.000008.01704@COMPUTER> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Justin, If you think wood work is difficult, you ain't seen nuttin till you get to the glass work. The KR requires commitment and if you can't give it that kind of commitment, you are making the right decision. I really hate to see you quit, but it is better to know thyself than to put $12,000 in it and then realize that it isn't for you. Try an RV. No wood, no glass. See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics "There is a time for building and a time for flying, and the time for building has long since expired." Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:20:14 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" Subject: KR> strengthening the firewall To: "krnet@mylist.net" Message-ID: <40D20B0E.00000A.01704@COMPUTER> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" add aluminum angle (1x4)??? Time for a reality check. How many KRs do you think are flying with the firewall built exactly to plans. I'm not saying you have to do it that way, but let's don't be giving people the idea that firewalls are falling off of KRs. See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics "There is a time for building and a time for flying, and the time for building has long since expired." Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:40:02 -0700 From: "JW" Subject: Re: KR> The thing that really eats me alive of the KR is the wood work To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <003301c454c4$6938a660$ed7ba8c0@computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" An RV is an expensive airplane but an awsome airplane. I feel after im done with all this training and I have a good paying stable job I will take some courses of wood working and such. I love the KR, there is no other airplane in it's speed class that can be built as cheap as a KR. Like you say Dan, "there is a time for building and a time for flying" I fly an adverage of 5 hours a week. It was very frustrating to me that when I was skinning my boat, I turned a light on under and seen about 2 gussets which wernt touching the wood enough to pass but from the top was perfect (wrong angle). Justin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Heath" To: Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 2:16 PM Subject: KR> The thing that really eats me alive of the KR is the wood work > Justin, > > > > If you think wood work is difficult, you ain't seen nuttin till you > get to the glass work. The KR requires commitment and if you can't > give it that kind of commitment, you are making the right decision. > > I really hate to see you quit, but it is better to know thyself than > to put > $12,000 in it and then realize that it isn't for you. > > Try an RV. No wood, no glass. > > See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics > > > > "There is a time for building and a time for flying, and the time for > building has long since expired." > > Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC > > See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering > > See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org > > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 21:59:00 -0400 From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: KR> forward spar dimensions To: "KRnet" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" When I laminated my spar caps I used wood a little oversize so I could plane it to the exact dimensions when they were done. Being someone who learned to measure in a machine shop and make parts to tollerances of a few ten thousandths of an inch, I was measuring everything with a set of dial calipers. While double and triple checking everything I realized that there is something weird in the dimensions in the plans. The 2S plans call for the center section front spars to be 2 5/32" wide which is about 2.1563". The outboard spars are supposed to be 1 15/16" at the root which is 2.9375". They each get skinned on both sides with 3/32" plywood. That makes the center spar about 2.344" which is also the distance betwen the faces of the attach fittings. The attach fittings on the outer spars go inside the inner fittings so we add the two 1/8" fittings to the inner spar to give us 2.375" which is about 30 thousandths wider than the space they go into. Obviously, the fittings will flex a little and you can make them fit, but why in the world would they not just make the center section spars 1/32" wider so the fittings will slide right in? Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 21:21:37 -0500 From: "Ron Eason" Subject: KR> CNC Type 1 Heads now availble To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <000e01c454da$fc4dd720$6501a8c0@CADENGINEERING> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Go to http://www.cbperformance.com/default.asp and check out the new CNC re-engineered VW heads. CFM flow chart shown for all 4 options. KRron ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:28:11 -0400 From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: RE: KR> CNC Type 1 Heads now availble To: "KRnet" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Jeeeeze, to justify that price they would need to increase the horsepower so much that the crank would never hold up. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Ron Eason Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 10:22 PM To: KRnet Subject: KR> CNC Type 1 Heads now availble Go to http://www.cbperformance.com/default.asp and check out the new CNC re-engineered VW heads. CFM flow chart shown for all 4 options. KRron _______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 3:26:13 +0000 From: Subject: Re: KR> forward spar dimensions To: KRnet Message-ID: <36u64f$134909@mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Brian, I did the exact calculations and the only response to my post of "error in the plans" was. "oh really?" Hope you find the answer. Im waiting. Steven Phillabaum Auburn Alamaba > > From: "Brian Kraut" > Date: 2004/06/18 Fri AM 01:59:00 GMT > To: "KRnet" > Subject: KR> forward spar dimensions > > When I laminated my spar caps I used wood a little oversize so I could > plane it to the exact dimensions when they were done. Being someone > who learned to measure in a machine shop and make parts to tollerances > of a few ten thousandths of an inch, I was measuring everything with a > set of dial calipers. While double and triple checking everything I > realized that there is something weird in the dimensions in the plans. > > The 2S plans call for the center section front spars to be 2 5/32" > wide which is about 2.1563". The outboard spars are supposed to be 1 > 15/16" at the root which is 2.9375". They each get skinned on both > sides with 3/32" plywood. That makes the center spar about 2.344" > which is also the distance betwen the faces of the attach fittings. > The attach fittings on the outer spars go inside the inner fittings so > we add the two 1/8" fittings to the inner spar to give us 2.375" which > is about 30 thousandths wider than the space they go into. Obviously, > the fittings will flex a little and you can make them fit, but why in > the world would they not just make the center section spars 1/32" > wider so the fittings will slide right in? > > Brian Kraut > Engineering Alternatives, Inc. > www.engalt.com > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 3:52:44 +0000 From: Subject: Re: Re: KR> forward spar dimensions To: KRnet Message-ID: <36u63k$15nrgo@mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Wow did I speak before I looked. When looking back I found that only half my question went out about the error in the plans. Sorry netters. I am following Brian on this since I have the same question. Steven Phillabaum Auburn Alabama not Alabamba > > From: > Date: 2004/06/18 Fri AM 03:26:13 GMT > To: KRnet > Subject: Re: KR> forward spar dimensions > > Brian, I did the exact calculations and the only response to my post > of "error in the plans" was. "oh really?" Hope you find the answer. Im > waiting. > > Steven Phillabaum > Auburn Alamaba > > > > From: "Brian Kraut" > > Date: 2004/06/18 Fri AM 01:59:00 GMT > > To: "KRnet" > > Subject: KR> forward spar dimensions > > > > When I laminated my spar caps I used wood a little oversize so I > > could plane it to the exact dimensions when they were done. Being > > someone who learned to measure in a machine shop and make parts to > > tollerances of a few ten thousandths of an inch, I was measuring > > everything with a set of dial calipers. While double and triple > > checking everything I realized that there is something weird in the > > dimensions in the plans. > > > > The 2S plans call for the center section front spars to be 2 5/32" > > wide which is about 2.1563". The outboard spars are supposed to be > > 1 15/16" at the root which is 2.9375". They each get skinned on > > both sides with 3/32" plywood. That makes the center spar about > > 2.344" which is also the distance betwen the faces of the attach > > fittings. The attach fittings on the outer spars go inside the > > inner fittings so we add the two 1/8" fittings to the inner spar to > > give us 2.375" which is about 30 thousandths wider than the space > > they go into. Obviously, the fittings will flex a little and you > > can make them fit, but why in the world would they not just make the > > center section spars 1/32" wider so the fittings will slide right > > in? > > > > Brian Kraut > > Engineering Alternatives, Inc. > > www.engalt.com > > > > > > _______________________________________ > > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:59:36 -0700 From: larry severson Subject: Re: KR> The thing that really eats me alive of the KR is the wood work To: KRnet Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040617205814.02468560@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > I feel after im done with all this training and I have a good >paying stable job I will take some courses of wood working and such. I >love the KR, there is no other airplane in it's speed class that can be >built as cheap as a KR. Like you say Dan, "there is a time for building >and a time for flying" I fly an adverage of 5 hours a week. I suggested to Otis that he get the Tuskegee kids involved in your plane as a group project for the experience building. Larry Severson Fountain Valley, CA 92708 (714) 968-9852 larry2@socal.rr.com ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 108 *************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================