From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 134 Date: 9/24/2004 8:59:32 PM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. RE: short Gathering update (F Ross) 2. KR-2 for Sales (Jim Sellars) 3. Lonely (rparker) 4. Re: Lonely (Steve Eberhart) 5. RE: Lonely (Joe Bienkowski) 6. Re: Lonely (F Ross) 7. Re: Lonely (FIXERJONES@aol.com) 8. Re: G limit (Martindale Family) 9. G Limit (Colin & Bev Rainey) 10. RE: G limit (Wolfgang Decker) 11. RE: G limit (larry severson) 12. Pictures from the Gathering on Friday (Ed Janssen) 13. Non KR--Challenger I (rhartwig11@juno.com) 14. RE: short Gathering update (Brian Kraut) 15. RE: Lonely (Brian Kraut) 16. RE: G Limit (Joachim Saupe) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 05:17:03 -0700 (PDT) From: F Ross Subject: RE: KR> short Gathering update To: KRnet Message-ID: <20040924121703.32943.qmail@web40905.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have to second that. Was pleasantly surprised to see so many planes at the field on Thurs PM when I arrived a couple of hours before sunset. Steve Glover and Richard Shirley were already here from California and others arrived every few minutes. Great turn-out. ===== Frank Ross, EAA Chapter 35, San Geronimo, TX RAF Lakenheath, Suffolk, England, UK Visit my photo album at: http://photos.yahoo.com/alamokr2 _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:38:06 -0300 From: "Jim Sellars" Subject: KR> KR-2 for Sales To: Message-ID: <00ab01c4a23b$b9da5400$6985c345@laptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Friends: I have a KR-2 for sale. It is a tricycle gear, Subaru powered, pretty little bird that is an easy flyer and good looker. Approximately 270 hours total and many add-ons and improvements having just completed a re-build. Comes complete with radio, GPS, new tires, gear reduction, nose gear spring, battery, prop, new alternator, spark plugs, coil, distributor, spark plug wires. Always hangered, I'm selling because I have two KR-2's and can't fly more than one at a time. Actually I'm flying this plane as often as I can until the snow starts to fly, so if there is an interest this would be the time to move the plane. Asking $ 18000 CDN. make and offer by calling me at 506-856-7977 or emailing me off the list directly. Best regards Jim Sellars ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 12:23:40 -0500 From: "rparker" Subject: KR> Lonely To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20040924172340.8284.qmail@server278.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Wow, it sounds great already. I'm stuck taking a class at MIT this week and cant make it. Cant wait to see Mark Langfords pictures though. I hope the exitement carries through to make next years gathering even better. Just the fact that Mark langford's plane will be there next year should raise enough interest to bring everyone back plus more. I wont miss it. Its going to be lonely here on the krnet for the next few days. :--( Rich Parker Peterborough, NH rparker@wwhotspots.com http://theparkers.wwhotspots.com/ ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:40:43 -0500 From: Steve Eberhart Subject: Re: KR> Lonely To: KRnet Message-ID: <4154783B.5030305@newtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed rparker wrote: > Its going to be lonely here on the krnet for the next few days. :--( I know what you mean. I was planning on traveling to the Gathering with Dana but ended up breaking my leg. Don't think camping with a broken leg sounds like much fun. Can't wait to see everyone's pictures and Video Bob's coverage. Steve Eberhart Evansville, IN ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 15:50:54 -0400 From: "Joe Bienkowski" Subject: RE: KR> Lonely To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <00ac01c4a26f$cec4f3a0$49c1b041@athlon001> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Steve, At do you know, preferably first hand, about flying the KR2 at gross weights approaching 1300 pounds? Best, Joe -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Steve Eberhart Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 3:41 PM To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR> Lonely rparker wrote: > Its going to be lonely here on the krnet for the next few days. :--( I know what you mean. I was planning on traveling to the Gathering with Dana but ended up breaking my leg. Don't think camping with a broken leg sounds like much fun. Can't wait to see everyone's pictures and Video Bob's coverage. Steve Eberhart Evansville, IN _______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:39:50 -0700 (PDT) From: F Ross Subject: Re: KR> Lonely To: KRnet Message-ID: <20040924213950.73207.qmail@web40912.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sorry you couldn't make it. So far there's over 80 people signed in with about 15 KRs on the ramp. Got a great picture of Mark Jones after he took his first ride with Marty Roberts. His Grin-Meter was pegged. Looks like everyone is having fun so far. ===== Frank Ross, EAA Chapter 35, San Geronimo, TX RAF Lakenheath, Suffolk, England, UK Visit my photo album at: http://photos.yahoo.com/alamokr2 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 18:07:20 EDT From: FIXERJONES@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> Lonely To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <6d.34b109ea.2e85f498@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" yea i fly n212 kr @ 1290# , me & 30 gal fuel..........steve jones ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 08:51:11 +1000 From: "Martindale Family" Subject: Re: KR> G limit To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <002401c4a288$fdba1820$75a0fea9@athlon2400> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Joe The KR2 is rated at +7/-7 G at a gross of 900lbs. A loose rule of thumb is to lose 1G per 100 lb thus at 1300lb your're looking at only +3/-3. Not sufficient margin in my opinion. Further your stall speed and thus approach speed is likely to be way up. I don't know just what the G limit relates to. It may be the wing attach fittings or it may be the engine/firewall brackets. No one I know has tested their aircraft to destruction to find out :-)). If you want a bigger useful load you would be better going to another design and probably paying more. John The Martindale Family 29 Jane Circuit TOORMINA NSW 2452 AUSTRALIA phone: 61 2 66584767 email: johnjane@chc.net.au ....At do you know, preferably first hand, about flying the KR2 at gross weights approaching 1300 pounds?.................... ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:07:40 -0400 From: "Colin & Bev Rainey" Subject: KR> G Limit To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <004001c4a28b$4a7e94e0$63472141@RaineyDay> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Joe & Jim I disagree. The Piper Seminole twin engine aircraft is rated at +2 -0 G's and is a wonderful crusing aircraft for normal category operations. For most people who fly KRs normal category type maneuvers is very common. I am willing to bet that most KRs never see more than 1.5 G's their entire life. If one likes 60 degree banked turns maybe just over 2 G's (60 degree LEVEL bank turn in any aircraft is 2 G's). The critical point is not going to be the weight, it is going to be the location of the CG. This will have more of an effect on the plane's safety than any other ONE thing considered. The second most important thing is the engine prop combination. I would think that the VW would never suffice as a good engine for this weight. Either O-200, Corvair 6, or one of the other higher output engines would be appropriate here. Also the testing phase is going to be very important for this aircraft due to the influence on the flight characteristics and most importantly, the speeds that will inevitably change. IF well built I can see this plane with proper CG control being one of the more stable KRs out there. Just don't try a Marty Roberts arrival move! Case in point, look at the Gathering pictures from before and take a look at the modified KR with the O-320 Lyc on the nose. Colin & Bev Rainey KR2(td) N96TA Sanford, FL crainey1@cfl.rr.com http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.html ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:21:55 -0400 From: "Wolfgang Decker" Subject: RE: KR> G limit To: "KRnet" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" John, how and who came up with this rule? Is there any science behind it? Wolfgang -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Martindale Family Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 6:51 PM To: KRnet Subject: Re: KR> G limit Joe The KR2 is rated at +7/-7 G at a gross of 900lbs. A loose rule of thumb is to lose 1G per 100 lb thus at 1300lb your're looking at only +3/-3. Not sufficient margin in my opinion. Further your stall speed and thus approach speed is likely to be way up. I don't know just what the G limit relates to. It may be the wing attach fittings or it may be the engine/firewall brackets. No one I know has tested their aircraft to destruction to find out :-)). If you want a bigger useful load you would be better going to another design and probably paying more. John The Martindale Family 29 Jane Circuit TOORMINA NSW 2452 AUSTRALIA phone: 61 2 66584767 email: johnjane@chc.net.au ....At do you know, preferably first hand, about flying the KR2 at gross weights approaching 1300 pounds?.................... _______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 17:35:16 -0700 From: larry severson Subject: RE: KR> G limit To: KRnet Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040924171025.0326dac0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Ken Rand was an engineer who worked, I believe, for Northrup. His design. His numbers. The rule of thumb is "common practice" in the aviation community, which is conservative. However, how much risk do you want to take 2 miles above the ground? KR built his VFR KR2 to plans with a 2100 VW engine to have an empty weight of 485 lbs. It can be done, but not if you put any goodies on it. Use a handheld radio and no electrical system. Plan on starting by proping and gravity feed the fuel from the header tank. No alternator, starter, or fuel pump and the Revmaster engine is only 141 lbs (included in the 485 lbs). This means that you can have a 200lb pilot, a 150lb passenger, and 65lbs of fuel (about 2.5 hours) and still be no more than 900 lbs. That leaves 100 lbs of extra fuel, passenger, and/or cargo with you still not exceeding 1000 lbs and a gray out 6 G capability. Put in extras and expect to end up like the typical military hot rod that is turned into a dog. At 485 lbs, the plane can be basically full aerobatic. At 600 lbs, the plane is useful, but not quite the tiger unless the pilot and fuel are light and there is no passenger. At 800 lbs basic, struggle and groan. A bigger engine will boost the plane up, but it will not change the structural limits at all. Of course, if you can guarantee smooth air at all times and never exceed 30 degrees of bank, you can go to the higher weights - but then why a KR2? >how and who came up with this rule? Is there any science behind it? > >Wolfgang >The KR2 is rated at +7/-7 G at a gross of 900lbs. A loose rule of thumb >is to lose 1G per 100 lb thus at 1300lb your're looking at only +3/-3. Larry Severson Fountain Valley, CA 92708 (714) 968-9852 larry2@socal.rr.com ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:19:10 -0500 From: ejanssen@chipsnet.com (Ed Janssen) Subject: KR> Pictures from the Gathering on Friday To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <003a01c4a29d$ab5cb000$ab00a8c0@dad> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Netters: For those of you who are chomping at the bit, here are a few pictures from the Gathering, taken today. I didn't take the time to edit them or to consider captions, so far. Of course, there'll no doubt be lots more pictures posted by others in the coming days. Click on the following address and then you can click on any of the pictures for a larger version or you can click on "slideshow" found under the title of the album and to the right side. Enjoy! Address: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/eros_62546/album?.dir=/2afc&.src=ph Ed Janssen ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 21:48:00 -0500 From: rhartwig11@juno.com Subject: KR> Non KR--Challenger I To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20040924.214800.2640.1.rhartwig11@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I would like to hear from anyone who has experience flying the Challenger I Ultralight. Please respond off list to my e-mail address. Dick Hartwig Waunakee, WI rhartwig11@juno.com ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 23:10:37 -0400 From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: RE: KR> short Gathering update To: "KRnet" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Friday night now and there are 17 flying KRs and 3 on trailers. Yeee Haaaa. Now Dean Cooper and I are trying to get earlier flights back to Jacksonville tomorrow before the hurricane hits there and we can't get back. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On Behalf Of F Ross Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 8:17 AM To: KRnet Subject: RE: KR> short Gathering update I have to second that. Was pleasantly surprised to see so many planes at the field on Thurs PM when I arrived a couple of hours before sunset. Steve Glover and Richard Shirley were already here from California and others arrived every few minutes. Great turn-out. ===== Frank Ross, EAA Chapter 35, San Geronimo, TX RAF Lakenheath, Suffolk, England, UK Visit my photo album at: http://photos.yahoo.com/alamokr2 _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com _______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 23:10:42 -0400 From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: RE: KR> Lonely To: "KRnet" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Where are you Steve? We are at the gathering waiting for you to show up. Not able to make it? Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: krnet-bounces+brian.kraut=engalt.com@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces+brian.kraut=engalt.com@mylist.net]On Behalf Of FIXERJONES@aol.com Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 6:07 PM To: krnet@mylist.net Subject: Re: KR> Lonely yea i fly n212 kr @ 1290# , me & 30 gal fuel..........steve jones _______________________________________ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 22:27:49 -0500 From: "Joachim Saupe" Subject: RE: KR> G Limit To: "KRnet" , "KRnet" Message-ID: <410-22004962532749650@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Colin, BE CAREFUL! I don't know what you mean by "60 degree LEVEL bank turn". Just today at the gathering we discussed max stress on the KR. It was established that the KR is max stressed to 7 Gs at 800 #. Meaning a total maximum supported "felt" weight of 5600 #. So if your gross is 1400#, your max G load is just shy of 4 Gs. If at that gross weight you make a turn at 60 degree, your "felt" weight is 2800# IF THIS HAPPENS IN BUMPY AIR, YOU JUST MIGHT EXCEED MAX LOADING, MAKING YOU THE TEST PILOT!!! Caps were not intended, but appeared at the right time! I'm not exactly clear on your intended message but want to warn everyone NOT to exceed the load limits! Joachim > [Original Message] > From: Colin & Bev Rainey > To: KRnet > Date: 9/24/2004 5:08:42 PM > Subject: KR> G Limit > > Joe & Jim > > I disagree. The Piper Seminole twin engine aircraft is rated at +2 -0 G's and is a wonderful crusing aircraft for normal category operations. For most people who fly KRs normal category type maneuvers is very common. I am willing to bet that most KRs never see more than 1.5 G's their entire life. If one likes 60 degree banked turns maybe just over 2 G's (60 degree LEVEL bank turn in any aircraft is 2 G's). The critical point is not going to be the weight, it is going to be the location of the CG. This will have more of an effect on the plane's safety than any other ONE thing considered. The second most important thing is the engine prop combination. I would think that the VW would never suffice as a good engine for this weight. Either O-200, Corvair 6, or one of the other higher output engines would be appropriate here. Also the testing phase is going to be very important for this aircraft due to the influence on the flight characteristics and most importantly, the speeds that will inevitably change. IF well built I can see this plane with proper CG control being one of the more stable KRs out there. Just don't try a Marty Roberts arrival move! > > Case in point, look at the Gathering pictures from before and take a > look at the modified KR with the O-320 Lyc on the nose. > > Colin & Bev Rainey > KR2(td) N96TA > Sanford, FL > crainey1@cfl.rr.com > http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.html > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 134 *************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================