From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 167 Date: 10/15/2004 8:59:30 PM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: R?f. : Re: KR> KR List (Phillip Matheson) 2. Re: Trim Indicators (Phillip Matheson) 3. RE: HS Update (Stephen Jacobs) 4. KR Listing (JIM VANCE) 5. Re: Ailerons (Orma) 6. Re: HS Update (Mark Langford) 7. Re: Mark Home? (Mark Langford) 8. Re: counter balances (jscott.pilot@juno.com) 9. Re: West system; T-88 proportioning by weight (Ed Janssen) 10. Re: counter balances (JAMES FERRIS) 11. Re: counter balances (jscott.pilot@juno.com) 12. tapering spars/was HS Update (Oscar Zuniga) 13. Re: tapering spars/was HS Update (steve kr2) 14. Re: Ailerons (larry flesner) 15. Re: Trim Indicators (larry flesner) 16. Vacuum (Stephen and Janet Henderson) 17. t88 (steve kr2) 18. Re: tapering spars/was HS Update (steve kr2) 19. Re: Vacuum (Orma) 20. Re: Vacuum (IFLYKRS@aol.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 16:17:47 +1000 From: "Phillip Matheson" Subject: Re: R?f. : Re: KR> KR List To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <008101c4b27e$b3acb480$71b0dccb@StationW2k04> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Your welcome to stay at my place Bill, or any other list members visiting Australia, Phillip Matheson matheson@dodo.com.au Australia VH PKR See our engines and kits at. http://www.vw-engines.com/ http://www.homebuilt-aviation.com/ See my KR Construction web page at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/FlyingKRPhil/VHPKR.html ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 16:42:30 +1000 From: "Phillip Matheson" Subject: Re: KR> Trim Indicators To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <011901c4b282$254862d0$71b0dccb@StationW2k04> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" For those of you using servos or electric trim motors What are you using as a dash indicator? and where did you get them, ( Electronics shop ( Dick Smith ) Would you still have the part numbers etc.?? Phillip Matheson matheson@dodo.com.au Australia VH PKR See our engines and kits at. http://www.vw-engines.com/ http://www.homebuilt-aviation.com/ See my KR Construction web page at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/FlyingKRPhil/VHPKR.html ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:33:04 +0200 From: "Stephen Jacobs" Subject: RE: KR> HS Update To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <000001c4b289$3a256750$c064a8c0@home> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Welcome back Herr Langford What secret bits did you smuggle back for the Sirocco? The following extract from your construction pages (tail feathers): The tapered spars were created on the tablesaw with the same tapering fixture that the newletter printed a few years back. Simply put, it's a straight piece of 1x6 to which the spar is clamped using wooden clamps, at the desired angle. The angle on the blade was also gradually altered during tapering, so that the spars required no sanding to match the airfoil profile. This took an awful lot of thinking (mostly in mirror-mode) and ate up a lot of time, but was worth it in the long run. ++++++++++++++++++++++ Can you say a bit more here Mark. Any time spent getting this right will save gobs of time shaping and sanding the spars later (empennage as well as the wing spars), particularly with the AS sections. I am not convinced that what I am visualizing is right, i.e. - cutting a few inches; shutting down; changing blade angle; starting the saw; cutting a few more inches etc. You mention "required no sanding", so obviously no steps?? Would be nice if there was a way to progressively change the blade angle between the known angles during the cut. Take care Steve J ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:40:31 -0500 From: "JIM VANCE" Subject: KR> KR Listing To: "krnet" Message-ID: <000001c4b2a8$fae9e960$0400a8c0@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Matt, The list would be most helpful. Keep us advised. Jim Vance Vance@ClaflinWildcats.com Final testing of electronics before engine tests. KR-2 N303JV 1835cc GP VW. ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:19:15 -0400 From: "Orma" Subject: Re: KR> Ailerons To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <000b01c4b2a8$ced6ccd0$6c34d445@ROBBINS1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" What do you guys think? Hello Mark To glass or not to glass? If you don't glass, how well protected will the spar be against wood eating insects and moisture that may accumulate? Orma Southfield, MI N110LR celebrating 20 years Flying, flying and more flying http://www.kr-2.aviation-mechanics.com/ ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 06:53:37 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> HS Update To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <01c001c4b2ad$9b7d6830$5e0ca58c@net.tbe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Steve Jacobs wrote: > Can you say a bit more here Mark. Any time spent getting this right > will save gobs of time shaping and sanding the spars later (empennage > as well as the wing spars), particularly with the AS sections. I am > not convinced that what I am visualizing is right, i.e. - cutting a > few inches; shutting down; changing blade angle; starting the saw; > cutting a few more inches etc. You mention "required no sanding", so > obviously no steps?? Steve, below is a message I sent to KRnet about 5 years ago that answers your question, as well as several that you didn't ask. I just figured I'd throw the whole thing out there just in case it'd help somebody else too. Yes it was cut continously, without switching off the saw. You'll need a wife that's not squeamish about flying sawdust, or some other form of human helper. My wife and I PERSONALLY built our house (no contractors other than slab and drywall), so she was up to the job... Date: Jan 25, 2000 6:11 AM From: Mark Langford Subject: Re: Wing spar sanding > I would like some advice on the sanding of the spars to fit the > contour of the airfoil, what is the best way to get this contour ? By > sanding, hand plaining ,machine plaining ,.....? I used a table saw to do the tapering, and changed the angle of the blade as I tapered. I marked the spar every foot or so, divided the total number of degrees of change by number of feet, figured out how many degrees of blade tilt corresponded to one turn of the wheel, and told my wife "every time one of these marks goes by the edge of the table, I want this wheel to have gone around a half a turn", or whatever it was. The result was a spar that I didn't have to touch with a sander or planer. Just went on to foam and glass. There are a bunch of pictures of this process at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kspars.html . The whole process of tapering (the height) and tapering (the airfoil) took maybe 2 minutes while I ran the spar thru the saw. I did spend about 15 minutes dividing number of degrees per turn by number of feet, and making sure that I knew what was going to get cut, but you can't beat this method for speed or accuracy of the final cuts. Having said this, you better be pretty sure of your work, and take into consideration where the top of the blade is going as the angle changes. Perhaps slicing up a 2x8 would be good practive to see if you've got the methodology down right. Maybe a planer or sander would be safer in this regard, but it's just as easy to take out a nick with a sander or planer, I guess. Note that there are several places on my web site where there are a zillion spring clamps. Most of the time these are holding the spar cap to an aluminum angle to keep them straight, not squeezing all the glue out of the joint. In some places there are Jorgensen clamps shown holding spar caps together while "scabbing", but they are lightly tightened, just enough to make sure there's contact, and to squeeze out the enormous amount of T-88 that I applied to each side to "soak" into the wood a few minutes before joining the two pieces. Having said this, I HAVE presoaked two pieces of wood, clamped the crap out of them, let them cure, and broke them days later, and the joint failed elsewhere. When the epoxy is 10 times stronger than the wood it doesn't take much epoxy to get the job done, especially when there is no possiblitiy of voids. I'm not saying you should over clamp T-88 joints (I know you're not supposed to), but I wouldn't throw away my spars if I'd already built them that way. Why do I say that? Well it just so happens that I have an extra set of spars that I built, and didn't think that I had put enough epoxy between the "scabbed" spar caps, because I didn't have any "squeeze-out" in several places. After my new ones were built (they were lighter anyway because of a little design change) I started wondering how strong the old ones were, and tested them to failure. The glue joint isn't where the caps separated... ---------------------------------------------------------------Mark Langford, Huntsville, ALN56ML at hiwaay.netsee KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:13:19 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: Re: KR> Mark Home? To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <01c601c4b2b0$5c8513f0$5e0ca58c@net.tbe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bill Clapp wrote: > You home from vacation Mark? If so I hope you had fun and a good time with > your family. Yep, I'm back, although I could easily have stayed there forever. Don't get me started, because it'd take three months to type in everything we did, learned, or observed there, but suffice it to say that I've loved Germany since I lived there in the Air Force 25 years ago. Those people really have it together, and in many ways make us Americans look like scatterbrains. I'll just leave it at that so as not to start a flame war. I like the way they think, and their attitudes about lots of things. I suspect that most people who write off the Europeans have never been there and don't know what they're missing. I didn't bring back any Scirocco parts, but I did manage four half-liter bottles of Bitburger Pils in my suitcase! I never really wrung it out, but I had our rented Passat TDI six-speed stationwagon up to 220 k/m on the autobahn at one point (that's 137 mph). It was a non-event, but you'd loose your license for that in the USA. Mostly we stuck to the back roads and did the "backdoor Europe" thing according to Rick Steve's guide, but I also went back to visit my old stomping ground. It was a fantastic trip, and I dare say we'll be back, now that we've had a taste of it. I'll do a web page of the trip later (I took 1900 pictures) and publish the URL for everybody, but first I have to do the 2004 Gathering web page, and work is just about killing me. I'll probably have to work all weekend for a dog and pony show that we're going to have with our customer on Thursday. At least I get paid for overtime! I'm still working my way through old emails, starting from present back to the day I left. Right now I'm only half way through, but one thing I've learned is that you guys do just fine without me. This may be my clue to just go to the digest version and answer the questions that have gone unanswered, or those that I feel could use a little more clarification. I'm bad about trying to answer every question, and I realize now that there are others who can take up my slack... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL N56ML at hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 14:13:10 GMT From: "jscott.pilot@juno.com" Subject: Re: KR> counter balances To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20041015.071315.16030.26929@webmail04.lax.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain John, The need would be more cosmetic than aerodynamic. An aerodynamic counterbalance on the rudder would lighten the rudder somewhat, which wouldn't be a bad thing, but isn't something I would term as necessary or needed for stability reasons. It's really your choice. -Jeff -- "John Esch" wrote: All I am debating if I need to counter balance my rudder. I did do the elevator but wondering if I really need to do the rudder. It might look odd to have one balanced and not the other. Any ideas or suggestions? John F. Esch KR-2SSW Independence, OR (7S5) ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:35:34 -0500 From: ejanssen@chipsnet.com (Ed Janssen) Subject: Re: KR> West system; T-88 proportioning by weight To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <001b01c4b2c4$3b2e9820$ab00a8c0@dad> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I was wondering if anyone has worked out the proper proportioning for mixing T-88 by weight? I forget which is heavier - the hardener, I think. Ed Ed Janssen mailto:ejanssen@chipsnet.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Langford" > many ways for it to not work properly. Proportioning by weight is the only > way to go for me. That way I know exactly what I'm getting, and never have > problems. ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 12:09:47 -0400 From: JAMES FERRIS Subject: Re: KR> counter balances To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20041015.120948.2136.0.mijnil@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I remember reading about the rudder fluttering on a sailplane, the guy had been flying a mountain wave for several hours and started back to the field at prettyhihh speed when he took his feet of the peddles for a brief rest and the rudder fluttered and shock the jell coat of the fuselafe but did not destroy the sailplane. On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 14:13:10 GMT "jscott.pilot@juno.com" writes: > > John, > > The need would be more cosmetic than aerodynamic. An aerodynamic > counterbalance on the rudder would lighten the rudder somewhat, > which wouldn't be a bad thing, but isn't something I would term as > necessary or needed for stability reasons. It's really your > choice. > > -Jeff > > -- "John Esch" wrote: > All > I am debating if I need to counter balance my rudder. I did do the > elevator but wondering if I really need to do the rudder. It might > look odd to have one balanced and not the other. > Any ideas or suggestions? > > John F. Esch > KR-2SSW > Independence, OR (7S5) > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. > Now includes pop-up blocker! > Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up > today! > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 16:16:29 GMT From: "jscott.pilot@juno.com" Subject: Re: KR> counter balances To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20041015.091732.16030.29475@webmail04.lax.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain FWIW, I've tested my KR to 215 mph IAS without the benefit of balance on anything other than ailerons, but build your plane to your standards. -Jeff -- JAMES FERRIS wrote: I remember reading about the rudder fluttering on a sailplane, the guy had been flying a mountain wave for several hours and started back to the field at prettyhihh speed when he took his feet of the peddles for a brief rest and the rudder fluttered and shock the jell coat of the fuselafe but did not destroy the sailplane. On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 14:13:10 GMT "jscott.pilot@juno.com" ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 13:40:03 -0500 From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: KR> tapering spars/was HS Update To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mark L. wrote- >I used a table saw to do the tapering, and changed the angle of the >blade as I tapered. ...and I can vouch that the technique works. I used it on the windshield uprights on my "Construction Trainer" cabin, which is about twice the amount of angle change as the taper of the KR spar and in a much shorter distance. My buddy and I ran about a half-dozen trial attempts, me calling out the marks as I fed the piece through the saw, and he just turning the blade angle crank at the pre-determined pace. Look at the 7th picture down from the top at http://www.flysquirrel.net/cabin/cabin2.html and you'll see it's straightforward and really works well. And a little side-bar comment given today's political scene. The "Construction Trainer" that I'm building is officially called the M-19 "Flying Squirrel". It turns out that John Kerry calls his Grumman Gulfstream V "the Flying Squirrel". Not that this puts me in good company or anything ;o) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 07:26:25 +0930 From: steve kr2 Subject: Re: KR> tapering spars/was HS Update To: KRnet Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20041016071405.02a36eb0@127.0.0.1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >angle crank at the pre-determined pace. Look at the 7th picture down >from the top .....straightforward and really works well..... > >Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TX > .........................i am in the process of tapering the spars >for > the as5046 section as well . what i have done is by useing a protractor > cut all the angles needed onto wedges, the intention is to slide the > wedge under each end of the spar, clamp to a cutting board and slide the > whole lot through the saw as if cutting a plain taper... this is in its > untried state at the moment. if any one has tried or sees a problem feel > free to eductate me .... with thanks.. > > >_______________________________________ >to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net >please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 19:43:19 -0500 From: larry flesner Subject: Re: KR> Ailerons To: KRnet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041015194319.007dd550@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I would like a general consensus here. In the plans, it shows glassing >in the aileron spars by laying up one layer of glass from the top side around the face of the aileron spar to the bottom side of aileron. >Mark Jones (N886MJ) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I think I'd at least wrap it with several layers of the "deck cloth". It holds (conforms) to the corners very well and two layer at 1.4 oz would, I think, give you nearly 50 percent the amount of glass as the one layer of KR cloth at 6.? oz. You will want to seal the wood with something anyway. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 19:44:19 -0500 From: larry flesner Subject: Re: KR> Trim Indicators To: KRnet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041015194419.007cc590@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:42 PM 10/15/04 +1000, you wrote: >For those of you using servos or electric trim motors >What are you using as a dash indicator? and where did you get them, ( >Electronics shop ( Dick Smith ) Would you still have the part numbers >etc.?? Phillip Matheson ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Phil, I'm using a Ray Allen electric servo mounted in the elevator. I'm using their LED position indicator but it failed at about the 20 hour point and I've never bothered getting it fixed. I never looked at it anyway. The trim forces are so light that they can be easily overcome until you have a chance to retrim. I take off with the trim set where it was for landing and tweak it on climbout and then again in cruise. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:54:47 -0400 From: "Stephen and Janet Henderson" Subject: KR> Vacuum To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <003401c4b31a$bc399b30$0f02a8c0@laptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have a VW 1835 engine on my KR-1. Does anyone recommend a certain type of vacuum pump that I should buy? Is anyone using a Venturi or a Missing Link? If so, could you tell me about how well they work. Thank you, Steve ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 11:22:56 +0930 From: steve kr2 Subject: KR> t88 To: KRnet Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20041016112024.02a3b190@127.0.0.1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed hi... the weight ratio for t88 is 100 part A --- 83 part B( hardener) info can be checked in the wicks cat. ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 11:17:05 +0930 From: steve kr2 Subject: Re: KR> tapering spars/was HS Update To: KRnet Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20041016111643.02a304b0@127.0.0.1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >angle crank at the pre-determined pace. Look at the 7th picture down >from the top .....straightforward and really works well..... > > > .........................i am in the process of tapering the spars > for > the as5046 section as well . what i have done is by useing a protractor > cut all the angles needed onto wedges, the intention is to slide the > wedge under each end of the spar, clamp to a cutting board and slide the > whole lot through the saw as if cutting a plain taper... this is in its > untried state at the moment. if any one has tried or sees a problem feel > free to eductate me .... with thanks.. > > >_______________________________________ >to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net >please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 23:17:20 -0400 From: "Orma" Subject: Re: KR> Vacuum To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <002201c4b32e$a6d45fa0$6c34d445@ROBBINS1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Is anyone using a Venturi Hello Steve I had been using one 11' venturi for years and recently switched to two, I have AH, DG, T&B................... The use of one was just not enough for the three gyro's Orma Southfield, MI N110LR celebrating 20 years Flying, flying and more flying http://www.kr-2.aviation-mechanics.com/ ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 23:48:19 EDT From: IFLYKRS@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> Vacuum To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <129.4df2eeff.2ea1f403@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" There is a 12 volt electric motor with a vacuum pump that is relativily inexpensive (200.00 or so) that can power all your gyros. I will try to get info on it but believe that Glenda McAlwee knows where to get them. They are automotive but easily adapted for a reliable vacuum source. Shell be here tomorrow and I'll ask her and let you know. Bill ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 167 *************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================