From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net To: John Bouyea Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 19 Date: 7/8/2004 8:59:57 PM Send KRnet mailing list submissions to krnet@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-request@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-owner@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. RE: KR structural analysis (Doug Rupert) 2. Re: Off subject - air compressor (TNCOMPRESSORMAN@aol.com) 3. Re: Cockpit Width.. (David Mullins) 4. KR "design" (Mark Langford) 5. Re: KR structural analysis (Ron Eason) 6. Re: KR "design" (Ron Eason) 7. Re: Off subject - air compressor (Ron Eason) 8. KR "design"/Wright Bros. (larry flesner) 9. Re: KR "design" (larry severson) 10. Re: Batteries (Joseph H. Horton) 11. Re: Re: Batteries (Mark Jones) 12. Re: KR "design"/Wright Bros. (Ron Eason) 13. if you need ballast for CG back in the fuselage, use the battery for ballast (Dan Heath) 14. Re: Re: Batteries (Joseph H. Horton) 15. Re: Re: Batteries (Joseph H. Horton) 16. 1835 VW on ebay, from a KR (Ron Eason) 17. Re: Re: Batteries (Allen G. Wiesner) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 00:04:54 -0400 From: "Doug Rupert" Subject: RE: KR> KR structural analysis To: "'KRnet'" Message-ID: <005401c464a0$ba739b20$1a04e440@office> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks for clearing that up Mark. If you see Stu see if she'll handle 180 HP please. Weight wise that 13B Mazda is real hard to turn my back on. Yeh I know increased weight with reduction unit but with that kind of power I can't see it as much of a problem since if I decide to go that route the seats will be set up tandem instead of side by each. Doug Rupert ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 00:14:22 EDT From: TNCOMPRESSORMAN@aol.com Subject: Re: KR> Off subject - air compressor To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <51.40d86ff6.2e1e241e@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Harold, Very well put, the compressed air must be cooled to achieve the required pressure dew point. Or put through an adsorption type dessicant air dryer. traps and drains will only get rid of liquid, not entrained vapor. By the way we met once in Fredricksburg, while I still worked for Woodward. You were involved in a dessicant dryer presentation if I remember correctly. Around 1993-94? Glad to see you on KRnet!! Best Regards, Riley Collins Rutledge, TN ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 07:28:00 -0400 From: David Mullins Subject: Re: KR> Cockpit Width.. To: KRnet Message-ID: <40ED2FC0.3040801@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed My KR2S has a cockpit width of 43" inside the fuselage walls and I am using a Dragonfly canopy. Dave Mullins Nashua, New Hampshire http://N323XL.iwarp.com LJHusky1@wmconnect.com wrote: >What is the widest cockpit anyone in the group has build for shoulder >width? >What is the widest you could build a KR2S. I have seen alot of modifications >to KR's on this site and this would be one that I am interested in. > >Thanks > >Larry >(Not yet building) but flying!!!! >_______________________________________ >to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net >please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:18:46 -0500 From: "Mark Langford" Subject: KR> KR "design" To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <03b701c464e5$b8e23f60$5e0ca58c@net.tbe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" NetHeads, One more thing I'd like to add about the KR "design". Early in the building process, as I was watching and learning from Larry French's "Lionheart" design effort, I called Stu to get more info on the RAF48 airfoil's characteristics. He laughed and said "we never had that stuff". One of the early KRNewsletters alludes to this fact, as there was a request for the RAF48 data because "the factory can't find their copy". You simply can't design an airplane without knowing the airfoil lift and drag characteristics. It turns out that the KR borrowed heavily from the Taylor Monoplane, as well as the Jeanie's Teenie and other planes for which they'd purchased plans. I'm not sure where the initial 5 degrees of wing incidence came from, but it was quickly discovered that it was too much, and it was lowered to 3.5 after the prototype flew. The truth of the matter is that these plans were not the result of a massive design effort, handed down on stone tablets from the mountaintop. They were quickly drawn up after their plane flew sucessfully, and a demand for plans arose. The big contribution that Ken made was his composite construction method, brought from the RC model world and applied to man-carrying aircraft, for which he won the "Best Aircraft Application of Materials" award at Oshkosh in 1972. Most of the other features for the KR came straight out of existing designs. There's more on this at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/khistory.html . I think Ken would have done a lot more with this plane if he'd lived longer, improving it much as we have done over the years. I think he would not only approve, but would have led the effort... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL N56ML at hiwaay.net see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:13:53 -0500 From: "Ron Eason" Subject: Re: KR> KR structural analysis To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <003301c46506$90bb4e20$6501a8c0@CADENGINEERING> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" My Aeronautical training and education included structural [equal to structural engineering degree - 1 semester], electronics [equal to electronics degree - 1 semester], electrical degree [electrical degree - 1 semester], mechanical degree [mechanical degree - 1 semester] and Aeronautical courses. Aeronautical courses were the best all around degree to have when I went to collage. I've worked as a mechanical, electrical, structural, and mechanical engineering jobs in my in the last 35 years. The demand for Aeronautical engineers is very low and very high, depends mostly on government [taxed money]. Stu Robinson should have had all the engineering knowledge tools to do the job. KRron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Langford" To: "KRnet" Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 10:16 PM Subject: Re: KR> KR structural analysis > Harold Wagenknecht wrote: > > >KR 2 S is different and beyond my experience. > > The KR2S is designed to accept the 100 hp 0-200, and I heard Bill > Marcy (contracted structural engineer for RR) say that it could handle > more at the > Oshkosh KR forum one year. Maybe I'll see if he can drop by this year too. > > > I also want to point out that Ken Rand was an aeronatical engineer > > and was > very capable of designing this aircraft. > > Ken Rand was an electrical engineer. Stu Robinson IS an aeronautical > engineer, but last time I talked to him, he was working as an > electrician at > a dolomite mine. Go figure... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL > N56ML "at" hiwaay.net > see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:35:40 -0500 From: "Ron Eason" Subject: Re: KR> KR "design" To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <00b301c46511$fd1a5fb0$6501a8c0@CADENGINEERING> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" And all designs are derived from previous knowledge it doesn't makes any of the bad if fact that good. The proof is in the flying. Computers, wind tunnels and additional knowledge resources have given us a better methods to guess what will happen in flight. The only real pioneers were Orville and Wilber types who did not have much of a knowledge base to adapt their ideas to make something different. KRron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Langford" To: "KRnet" Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 7:18 AM Subject: KR> KR "design" > NetHeads, > > One more thing I'd like to add about the KR "design". Early in the building > process, as I was watching and learning from Larry French's > "Lionheart" design effort, I called Stu to get more info on the RAF48 > airfoil's characteristics. He laughed and said "we never had that > stuff". One of the > early KRNewsletters alludes to this fact, as there was a request for the > RAF48 data because "the factory can't find their copy". You simply can't > design an airplane without knowing the airfoil lift and drag > characteristics. > > It turns out that the KR borrowed heavily from the Taylor Monoplane, > as well as the Jeanie's Teenie and other planes for which they'd > purchased plans. I'm not sure where the initial 5 degrees of wing > incidence came from, but it was quickly discovered that it was too > much, and it was lowered > to 3.5 after the prototype flew. The truth of the matter is that > these plans were not the result of a massive design effort, handed > down on stone tablets from the mountaintop. They were quickly drawn > up after their plane > flew sucessfully, and a demand for plans arose. The big contribution > that Ken made was his composite construction method, brought from the > RC model world and applied to man-carrying aircraft, for which he won > the "Best Aircraft Application of Materials" award at Oshkosh in 1972. > Most of the other features for the KR came straight out of existing > designs. > > There's more on this at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/khistory.html > . I > think Ken would have done a lot more with this plane if he'd lived > longer, improving it much as we have done over the years. I think he > would not only > approve, but would have led the effort... > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL > N56ML at hiwaay.net > see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:30:52 -0500 From: "Ron Eason" Subject: Re: KR> Off subject - air compressor To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <00ce01c46519$b311c310$6501a8c0@CADENGINEERING> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Dryers are all good, but not absolutely necessary for paint spraying. Moisture traps are necessary to keep entrained water out of the air being used. I've sprayed many cars and have not had any problems until the moisture trap failed. Refrigerant and Desiccant dryers are mainly used in industrial apps where freezing amb temperatures are encountered. KRron ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 11:14 PM Subject: Re: KR> Off subject - air compressor > Harold, > > Very well put, the compressed air must be cooled to achieve the > required pressure dew point. Or put through an adsorption type > dessicant air dryer. traps > and drains will only get rid of liquid, not entrained vapor. By the > way we met once in Fredricksburg, while I still worked for Woodward. > You were involved in a dessicant dryer presentation if I remember correctly. > Around 1993-94? > Glad to see you on KRnet!! > > Best Regards, > > Riley Collins > Rutledge, TN > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 17:59:04 -0500 From: larry flesner Subject: KR> KR "design"/Wright Bros. To: KRnet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040708175904.008ec180@pop.midwest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The only real pioneers were Orville and >Wilber types who did not have much of a knowledge base to adapt their >ideas to make something different. KRron ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Not to take away from their accomplishments but I think they studied and copied from the birds they watched. Does that mean the great- great grandfather of my KR is a buzzard? That might explain why it tries to circle every time I fly over some "road kill". :-) :-) Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 16:25:38 -0700 From: larry severson Subject: Re: KR> KR "design" To: Ron Eason , KRnet Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040708162257.02461598@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >The only real pioneers were Orville and >Wilber types who did not have much of a knowledge base to adapt their >ideas to make something different. Actually, they started from the wing designs of O. Lillenthal, but modified them based on a wind tunnel that they designed and built. In fact, wing design went all the way back to good old Leonardo. (That we know of. It may ave gone much further back than that.) Larry Severson Fountain Valley, CA 92708 (714) 968-9852 larry2@socal.rr.com ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:54:41 -0400 From: "Joseph H. Horton" Subject: KR> Re: Batteries To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20040708.205443.2380.0.joe.kr2s.builder@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Guys, As I search for the space to mount the battery box on the firewall I started to wonder if 2 smaller batteries could be used together for the electric system but mount them at different locations on the fire wall and operate them in series??? Joe Horton joe.kr2s.builder@juno.com ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:08:58 -0500 From: "Mark Jones" Subject: Re: KR> Re: Batteries To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <006f01c46551$50a0fa60$6401a8c0@wi.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Joe and others, Why not mount the battery inside the cockpit on the shelf such as Mark Langford did . http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/ (go down a few pictures and you will see how it is done.) Or for that matter, if you need ballast for CG back in the fuselage, use the battery for ballast. Also, Mr. Langford turned me on to this battery http://www.gotbatteries.com/Productpage.asp?ProductNum=35L105S3 by PPS and I now have one. This is one sweet little battery weighing in at 12 lbs. The ad says 14 but mine is 12. Plus, the price is right. Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI USA E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph H. Horton" To: Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 7:54 PM Subject: KR> Re: Batteries > Guys, > As I search for the space to mount the battery box on the > firewall I started to wonder if 2 smaller batteries could be used > together for the electric system but mount them at different locations > on the fire wall and operate them in series??? > > Joe Horton > joe.kr2s.builder@juno.com > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:13:15 -0500 From: "Ron Eason" Subject: Re: KR> KR "design"/Wright Bros. To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <002701c46551$e95821c0$6501a8c0@CADENGINEERING> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I think you hit on a idea! KRron ----- Original Message ----- From: "larry flesner" To: "KRnet" Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 5:59 PM Subject: KR> KR "design"/Wright Bros. > The only real pioneers were Orville and > >Wilber types who did not have much of a knowledge base to adapt their ideas > >to make something different. > >KRron > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Not to take away from their accomplishments but I think they studied > and copied from the birds they watched. Does that mean the great- > great grandfather of my KR is a buzzard? That might explain why it > tries to circle every time I fly over some "road kill". :-) :-) > > Larry Flesner > > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:19:56 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Dan Heath" Subject: KR> if you need ballast for CG back in the fuselage, use the battery for ballast To: "krnet@mylist.net" Message-ID: <40EDF2BC.000003.03548@COMPUTER> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" One thing to be aware of if you do decide to do that, is the length of the cable that you will have to run. The longer the cable, the larger it has to be to carry the load. I did that on the Beast and it was a mistake. Jerry and I have a Panasonic battery that is about the size of the little Oddesey batteries and it only cost $50 and I am mounting it right up by the motor mount on the passenger side. There is just enough room. you can get these from www.digikey.com I think this is the PN P049-ND. They are now $59. "There is a time for building and a time for flying, and the time for building has long since expired." See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:20:31 -0400 From: "Joseph H. Horton" Subject: Re: KR> Re: Batteries To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20040708.212031.2380.2.joe.kr2s.builder@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I still have a header tank and I don't believe at this time I will need the weight in the back. Joe On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:08:58 -0500 "Mark Jones" writes: > Joe and others, > Why not mount the battery inside the cockpit on the shelf such as > Mark > Langford did . http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/ (go down a few > pictures and > you will see how it is done.) Or for that matter, if you need > ballast for CG > back in the fuselage, use the battery for ballast. Also, Mr. > Langford turned > me on to this battery > http://www.gotbatteries.com/Productpage.asp?ProductNum=35L105S3 by > PPS and I > now have one. This is one sweet little battery weighing in at 12 > lbs. The ad > says 14 but mine is 12. Plus, the price is right. > > Mark Jones (N886MJ) > Wales, WI USA > E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com > Joe Horton joe.kr2s.builder@juno.com ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:36:18 -0400 From: "Joseph H. Horton" Subject: Re: KR> Re: Batteries To: krnet@mylist.net Message-ID: <20040708.213619.2380.3.joe.kr2s.builder@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mark -- It will be close - but that might fit- Thanks - Joe On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:08:58 -0500 "Mark Jones" writes: > Joe and others, > Why not mount the battery inside the cockpit on the shelf such as > Mark > Langford did . http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/ (go down a few > pictures and > you will see how it is done.) Or for that matter, if you need > ballast for CG > back in the fuselage, use the battery for ballast. Also, Mr. > Langford turned > me on to this battery > http://www.gotbatteries.com/Productpage.asp?ProductNum=35L105S3 by > PPS and I > now have one. This is one sweet little battery weighing in at 12 > lbs. The ad > says 14 but mine is 12. Plus, the price is right. > > Mark Jones (N886MJ) > Wales, WI USA > E-mail me at flykr2s@wi.rr.com > Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at > http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joseph H. Horton" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 7:54 PM > Subject: KR> Re: Batteries > > > > Guys, > > As I search for the space to mount the battery box on the > > firewall I started to wonder if 2 smaller batteries could be used > > together for the electric system but mount them at different > locations on > > the fire wall and operate them in series??? > > > > Joe Horton > > joe.kr2s.builder@juno.com > > > > _______________________________________ > > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to > KRnet-leave@mylist.net > > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > > > > _______________________________________ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > Joe Horton joe.kr2s.builder@juno.com ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:26:51 -0500 From: "Ron Eason" Subject: KR> 1835 VW on ebay, from a KR To: Message-ID: <001701c4655c$32174940$6501a8c0@CADENGINEERING> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2484173060&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting $100.00 today. KRron ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:27:43 -0400 From: "Allen G. Wiesner" Subject: Re: KR> Re: Batteries To: "KRnet" Message-ID: <002801c4655c$51753950$0b14da42@CPQ25208480116> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This may be too basic but batteries mounted in series add voltage, i.e. 2 ea. 12 volt bats. will give you 24 volts. You would have to mount them in parallel, or use 2 ea. 6 volt bats. Allen G. Wiesner KR-2S/TD S/N 1118 65 Franklin Street Ansonia, CT 06401 (203) 732-0508 flashyal@usadatanet.net ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 346, Issue 19 ************************************** ================================== ABC Amber Outlook Converter v4.20 Trial version ==================================